Not a Matter of Religion

[Lipush]

are only Arabs taken out of their homes when they sit there illegally?

 

[P F Tinmore]

So then, Why can't a one state solution work?

 

[P F Tinmore]

are only Arabs taken out of their homes when they sit there illegally?

They were there before Israel.

I question who you consider illegal.

 

[toastman]

So then, Why can't a one state solution work?

I would imagine it's because one group does not want to live right alongside the other. Two state solution is the best option in my opinion. The question is, when will both sides come to an agreement

 

[pbel]

which makes sense, because people who live in the middle of the desert are not part of a normal population and cannot be treated as such.

Why is that a problem for a Bedouin to live in Rahat or Lakiye? why do they need to spread themselves all over the Negev and not live like the rest?

I don't get it. It's the 21st century and Israel is a developed western country

If you don't see a problem with demolishing the homes of people of a particular ethnicity in order to force them to live on less land, that's for you and your conscience to sort out.

But, whichever way you cut it, this policy cannot be squared with some utopian vision of an Israel which treats all its citizens equally. So let's not pretend otherwise.

They just want control of all Muslims by creating Bantustans like they have with the Palestinians living in the occupied territories.

Really that simple.

 

[MHunterB]

which makes sense, because people who live in the middle of the desert are not part of a normal population and cannot be treated as such.

Why is that a problem for a Bedouin to live in Rahat or Lakiye? why do they need to spread themselves all over the Negev and not live like the rest?

I don't get it. It's the 21st century and Israel is a developed western country

If you don't see a problem with demolishing the homes of people of a particular ethnicity in order to force them to live on less land, that's for you and your conscience to sort out.

But, whichever way you cut it, this policy cannot be squared with some utopian vision of an Israel which treats all its citizens equally. So let's not pretend otherwise.

Do you truly think it has to do with their 'ethnicity' rather than untreated human waste being left wherever, and children subjected to the vicissitudes of not having purified water and not getting an education???


It's not about ethnicity nor religion: it's about 21st C nations which aren't equipped to deal with nomadic groups crossing borders, etc. If the Israeli intent were as you are insisting, they'd be building 'em high-rises and plan a nice factory next door so everyone could walk to work. That is NOT what's happening.

True, this is a situation in some ways similar to that of First Nations (NA) tribes...... In the US and Canada, we 'solved' this problem - for us! - by restricting the NA peoples to reservations AND taking their children away to 'civilize' them in special schools, or to be adopted by 'mainstream' families (who were told these kids were orphans).

The situation of the Roma in much of Europe is similar (I'm not sure if 'Travellers' are actually Roma, anyone?).

Do you think that no other nation in the area is having difficulty with getting the Bedouin to become an actual part of their economy and citizenry? Why don't we go look at how Arab Muslim nations treat their Bedouin populations who refuse to 'integrate'?

The Bedouin in Contemporary Syria: The Persistence

BBC News - Egypt soldier and Bedouin killed in gunfight over land

No Arab Spring for Egypt's Bedouin - Opinion - Al Jazeera English

Egypt reaches out to Bedouins after Sinai clashes | Arab News ? Saudi Arabia News, Middle East News, Opinion, Economy and more.

NB: I am not attributing negative characteristics to Bedouin tribes overall, although it does seem that some sub-tribes are primarily involved in activities which are illegal in modern nations (selling guns, 'liberating' livestock, etc). The way of the nomadic warrior 'raider' is not the way of a modern nation's citizen.

There is such a mosaic of tribal traditions that I think it's impossible to generalize beyond the obvious that it's extremely difficult to maintain full 'engagement' with the national citizenry when one is part of a nomadic clan. (ie, 'migrant workers', 'undocumented aliens')

Since Arab nations like Egypt and Syria and others *also* experience the same tensions and friction between 'townies' and 'nomads' - I do not think 'religious ethnicity' is at all the issue.

There is a lot more of an issue about trying to reconcile the 'reactionary' patriarchal nature of Bedouin society with sending girls to school and other requirements and laws of modern nations.

 

[MHunterB]

Here is a site about the Bedouin which appears to be by Bedouin: Bedouin Culture

And here is a book on Arab society which may prove interesting for forum participants: I've only just begun reading it.

http://intersci.ss.uci.edu/wiki/eBooks/MidEast/BOOKS/The Arab World Barakat.pdf

 

[jehan]

Do you truly think it has to do with their 'ethnicity' rather than untreated human waste being left wherever, and children subjected to the vicissitudes of not having purified water and not getting an education???

It's not about ethnicity nor religion: it's about 21st C nations which aren't equipped to deal with nomadic groups crossing borders, etc. If the Israeli intent were as you are insisting, they'd be building 'em high-rises and plan a nice factory next door so everyone could walk to work. That is NOT what's happening.

True, this is a situation in some ways similar to that of First Nations (NA) tribes...... In the US and Canada, we 'solved' this problem - for us! - by restricting the NA peoples to reservations AND taking their children away to 'civilize' them in special schools, or to be adopted by 'mainstream' families (who were told these kids were orphans).

The situation of the Roma in much of Europe is similar (I'm not sure if 'Travellers' are actually Roma, anyone?).

Do you think that no other nation in the area is having difficulty with getting the Bedouin to become an actual part of their economy and citizenry? Why don't we go look at how Arab Muslim nations treat their Bedouin populations who refuse to 'integrate'?

NB: I am not attributing negative characteristics to Bedouin tribes overall, although it does seem that some sub-tribes are primarily involved in activities which are illegal in modern nations (selling guns, 'liberating' livestock, etc). The way of the nomadic warrior 'raider' is not the way of a modern nation's citizen.

There is such a mosaic of tribal traditions that I think it's impossible to generalize beyond the obvious that it's extremely difficult to maintain full 'engagement' with the national citizenry when one is part of a nomadic clan. (ie, 'migrant workers', 'undocumented aliens')

Since Arab nations like Egypt and Syria and others *also* experience the same tensions and friction between 'townies' and 'nomads' - I do not think 'religious ethnicity' is at all the issue.

There is a lot more of an issue about trying to reconcile the 'reactionary' patriarchal nature of Bedouin society with sending girls to school and other requirements and laws of modern nations.

I'm not sure how seriously to take your references to nomadic warrior raiders and border-crossing tribes in the Negev. Again, I repeat, the Bedouin in the Negev were historically nomadic or semi-nomadic. The word historically is operative there, since today they are sedentarized. In fact many prefer not to call themselves Bedouin because the pastoral nomadic way of life of the Bedouin is over for them. And again, the unrecognized villages are actually villages, with structures that are being demolished, many repeatedly, upward of thirty times, with bulldozers. Why is this happening?

To say the villages are demolished because they have no infrastructure or access to services is switching cause and effect, and is more than a little disingenuous, since they have no infrastructure because they are unrecognized. This would be resolved if they were recognized, as has been recommended in the past. Instead, they are being evicted from land where they have been since Ottoman times and pushed into a smaller area of land.

I don't generally like analogies, because I tend to think each case should be looked at on its own, however your analogy with the First Nations tribes actually proves my point. The policy of restricting people to a smaller area of the land through reservations is exactly what is happening with this plan to relocate the Negev population to five "planned townships."

Arab Muslim nations are for the most part dictatorships, or very recently attempting to struggle out of decades of dictatorship - a process which will take decades if not generations. Dictatorships don't treat the majority humanely, never mind the minorities. That said, twenty-two countries are not a monolith and the Sinai in recent years can't be generalized across the Arab world - the Bedu populations in countries such as Libya for example aren't treated any differently than the Hadar. They're certainly not having their homes demolished and being evicted to make way for trees.

All of this however is off-topic. Like I said, I was responding to the claim that "Israel sure does treat all of their citizens well." I believe what is happening right now in the Negev, as well as surveys among Palestinian citizens of Israel, 77.6 per cent of whom say they are discriminated against (among many other things) makes that statement problematic. But you can keep the rose-colored glasses on and claim that the statement is factually true if you like, that's absolutely your prerogative.

 

[P F Tinmore]

In the US, in West-by-God-Virginia, there are quite a few villages which have no municipal services: no police or firemen or EMT's except for whoever volunteers.

Houses have burned down while two volunteer fire companies argued over who was supposed to go and put out the flames......

These towns *also* have no trash pick-up, and no municipal water: you either get a well dug, or have a rain-barrel. Yes, one can see the 'locals' filling their water jugs from the runoff perking through the rocks after a rain (where rocks are exposed at roadside cuts).

I am supposing that these Bedouin villages are similarly 'unincorporated'?

Gee, that sounds like my home town except we only had one volunteer fire dept.

 

[P F Tinmore]

We expect them to live in cities and not in tents.

Do you think that if *I* went in the middle of a hellhole, put a stick and a tent and said I lived there I won't be evacuated?

And why it is ok to take out JEWS who sit 'illegally' in some place but if far out there do demand the same out of Bedouins?

Bedouins don't live in tents in the middle of a hellhole, though its interesting that's the image that came to mind. Those impacted by the plan live in what are often called unrecognized villages and the plan intends to relocate them to government-approved planned townships.

The comparison you make is interesting, considering the settlers are "illegally" in some place, and not being "taken out" whereas the Bedouins are not on occupied territory and yet are being "taken out".

"Bedouins don't live in tents in the middle of a hellhole"

Yeah, actually they do.

I live in a small town in southern Israel that happens to be surrounded by Bedouin tents that look exactly like from those cliche movies you see. Except it isn't cliche. Its real.

though its interesting that's the image that came to mind

It is the same that comes to the eye, as well.

Those impacted by the plan live in what are often called unrecognized villages and the plan intends to relocate them to government-approved planned townships.

Unrecognized villages are the villages that the government doesn't accept because the residents don't play taxes. Without taxes they cannot get listed in the Israeli Tabo and cannot get any electricity or water.

Once they start paying taxes like the rest of us, they will get all those demands.

And that is not the issue with the squatters I'm speaking of. There are many who can live in Kseife or Rahat or Lakiye, but they for some reason chose not to. Which is something unexplainable because the mayors call them and want to support them. they refuse.

"The comparison you make is interesting, considering the settlers are "illegally" in some place, and not being "taken out" whereas the Bedouins are not on occupied territory and yet are being "taken out".

Bedouins are nomads. They have no real ties to any land. By self definition. It have been this way for long long years.

Once some decided that they wish to go out of that box and have cities and houses, the state of Israel was thrilled. They are lawful citizens. That is why towns around mine, especially Rahat, can afford themselves to bloom.

The squatter beduoins should be taken out and put into the cities. this situation is unacceptable as it is. The Negev is getting ruined because it.

If its ok to demand that settlers will become legal in legal towns, why not demand the same thing from people INSIDE the green line?

Is the law for Jews only?

How is THAT ok?

As one Bedouin stated:

Before Israel I had a house surrounded by fruit trees, a garden, livestock.

Now I live in a tent in the sand.

 

[toastman]

Tinmore, please tell us, what was the reason(s) that Israel demolished their tents/homes. Please be as detailed as you can, thanks

 

[P F Tinmore]

Tinmore, please tell us, what was the reason(s) that Israel demolished their tents/homes. Please be as detailed as you can, thanks

Sure, Israel wants to steal the land.

 

[P F Tinmore]

[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UjfzfGcZlXo]84 b Sleepless Gaza Jerusalem.divx - YouTube[/ame]

 

[toastman]

Tinmore, please tell us, what was the reason(s) that Israel demolished their tents/homes. Please be as detailed as you can, thanks

Sure, Israel wants to steal the land.

'Their' land ?? Where were they living at the time ?

 

[toastman]

Bedouins don't live in tents in the middle of a hellhole, though its interesting that's the image that came to mind. Those impacted by the plan live in what are often called unrecognized villages and the plan intends to relocate them to government-approved planned townships.

The comparison you make is interesting, considering the settlers are "illegally" in some place, and not being "taken out" whereas the Bedouins are not on occupied territory and yet are being "taken out".

"Bedouins don't live in tents in the middle of a hellhole"

Yeah, actually they do.

I live in a small town in southern Israel that happens to be surrounded by Bedouin tents that look exactly like from those cliche movies you see. Except it isn't cliche. Its real.

though its interesting that's the image that came to mind

It is the same that comes to the eye, as well.

Those impacted by the plan live in what are often called unrecognized villages and the plan intends to relocate them to government-approved planned townships.

Unrecognized villages are the villages that the government doesn't accept because the residents don't play taxes. Without taxes they cannot get listed in the Israeli Tabo and cannot get any electricity or water.

Once they start paying taxes like the rest of us, they will get all those demands.

And that is not the issue with the squatters I'm speaking of. There are many who can live in Kseife or Rahat or Lakiye, but they for some reason chose not to. Which is something unexplainable because the mayors call them and want to support them. they refuse.

"The comparison you make is interesting, considering the settlers are "illegally" in some place, and not being "taken out" whereas the Bedouins are not on occupied territory and yet are being "taken out".

Bedouins are nomads. They have no real ties to any land. By self definition. It have been this way for long long years.

Once some decided that they wish to go out of that box and have cities and houses, the state of Israel was thrilled. They are lawful citizens. That is why towns around mine, especially Rahat, can afford themselves to bloom.

The squatter beduoins should be taken out and put into the cities. this situation is unacceptable as it is. The Negev is getting ruined because it.

If its ok to demand that settlers will become legal in legal towns, why not demand the same thing from people INSIDE the green line?

Is the law for Jews only?

How is THAT ok?

As one Bedouin stated:

Before Israel I had a house surrounded by fruit trees, a garden, livestock.

Now I live in a tent in the sand.

A Jew stated:

Before Israel, I had no home. Now I have a place that me and my family can call home and a place where I am safe from the Anti - that my people and I have been suffering from for centuries

 

[P F Tinmore]

"Bedouins don't live in tents in the middle of a hellhole"

Yeah, actually they do.

I live in a small town in southern Israel that happens to be surrounded by Bedouin tents that look exactly like from those cliche movies you see. Except it isn't cliche. Its real.

though its interesting that's the image that came to mind

It is the same that comes to the eye, as well.

Those impacted by the plan live in what are often called unrecognized villages and the plan intends to relocate them to government-approved planned townships.

Unrecognized villages are the villages that the government doesn't accept because the residents don't play taxes. Without taxes they cannot get listed in the Israeli Tabo and cannot get any electricity or water.

Once they start paying taxes like the rest of us, they will get all those demands.

And that is not the issue with the squatters I'm speaking of. There are many who can live in Kseife or Rahat or Lakiye, but they for some reason chose not to. Which is something unexplainable because the mayors call them and want to support them. they refuse.

"The comparison you make is interesting, considering the settlers are "illegally" in some place, and not being "taken out" whereas the Bedouins are not on occupied territory and yet are being "taken out".

Bedouins are nomads. They have no real ties to any land. By self definition. It have been this way for long long years.

Once some decided that they wish to go out of that box and have cities and houses, the state of Israel was thrilled. They are lawful citizens. That is why towns around mine, especially Rahat, can afford themselves to bloom.

The squatter beduoins should be taken out and put into the cities. this situation is unacceptable as it is. The Negev is getting ruined because it.

If its ok to demand that settlers will become legal in legal towns, why not demand the same thing from people INSIDE the green line?

Is the law for Jews only?

How is THAT ok?

As one Bedouin stated:

Before Israel I had a house surrounded by fruit trees, a garden, livestock.

Now I live in a tent in the sand.

A Jew stated:

Before Israel, I had no home. Now I have a place that me and my family can call home and a place where I am safe from the Anti - that my people and I have been suffering from for centuries

Of course they had to kick out the natives first.

 

[toastman]

As one Bedouin stated:

Before Israel I had a house surrounded by fruit trees, a garden, livestock.

Now I live in a tent in the sand.

A Jew stated:

Before Israel, I had no home. Now I have a place that me and my family can call home and a place where I am safe from the Anti - that my people and I have been suffering from for centuries

Of course they had to kick out the natives first.

Thanks to the war-mongering mentality and pure genuine hatred ,greediness and genocidal desire of the surrounding Arab countries.

Of course, we both know where this argument is going to lead us; to a he started it, no he started it fight lol. You know it's true !

 

[HistoryBefore67]

So now hearsay from an alleged random unnamed Bedouin is the basis for an argument? Wow, this board is devolving fast.

 

[Sweet_Caroline]

Lt. Col. Falach Hayib, a Bedouin Muslim officer in the #IDF, chose to commemorate the Holocaust through an eyeopening first-hand experience in Poland. "One must honor the humanity of humankind," Col. Hayib said after visiting concentration camps with the IDF’s Witness in Uniform program. "Anything connected to the Jewish people is also connected to me."

 

[jtpr312]

Hopefully this won't backfire on them. The number of green on blue attacks in Afghanistan is staggering. Far as I'm concerned when push comes to shove the filthy muslim will side with their filthy muslim brethren and turn their guns of their fellow IDF members. Reminds me of stories my dad told me about being in some camps in Vietnam where you had half your attention and half your machine guns focused out engaging the NVA and the other half focused in engaging the south Vietnamese "allies".