Obama Got It Right: Tar Sands Pipeline Would Drive Up Prices

[Mr. H.]

It is certainly NOT bullshit. Take a look at the "Why Is Gas So High?" thread. You need to get it out of your head that Exxon/Mobile is an "American" company.

Every tanker that leaves the Gulf of Mexico with refined gasoline costs the American consumer at the pump with artificially high prices because the refineries can only produce a certain limited amount. The notion you do not understand this simple fact astounds me.

The prices are HIGH because of excessive taxation.

Taxes are certainly a component to the cost at the pump. The difference that separates taxes is that it does not restrict supply and the revenue pays for things we need like better roads and bridges. What one has to ask is how the cost of gas is broken down and what factors are artificial and do not benefit US. The refineries are running at full capacity so if they are contracted to refine new oil that will be refined here and shipped out of the gulf to other markets THAT affects supply of domestic gasoline supply and artificially raises the price of gas. Surely you must understand this concept.

Did you miss my memo on grain exports?

Revenues and profits don't restrict supply either- they ADD to it.

Oh- and they pay for things we need like... more oil and natural gas.

 

[CrusaderFrank]

Obama Got It Right: Tar Sands Pipeline Would Drive Up Prices (aka: How is someone so fucking stupid as to run up annual trillion plus deficits)

 

[tinydancer]

And with all that pipeline crossing the aquifer, do you know what IS and has been polluting that aquifer for decades? AGRICULTURE

http://www.nytimes.com/2011/12/01/opinion/polluting-the-ogallala-aquifer.html

For true. I think I've told you before about my battles in Southern Ontario over intensive hog farms on an a very sensitive aquifer. But I don't think most people realize how much damage can be done by overspraying manure from the lagoons.

Do people actually farm hogs? Or do they ranch them?

I think it is technically just ranching, except the animals have shorter legs than cattle.

Well they call it intensive hog farming. I have a hard time with it. I hunt, I fish, I love meat, I am a carnivore and proud of it and I know people need to be fed, but I still am not comfortable with this.

And I know really nice people who are hog producers, but like I said, I'm still not comfortable with this practice of raising hogs.

You do know that I'm referring to the factory farms correct?

 

[HUGGY]

What are you talking about. Huggy you already have two Keystone pipelines. No shit.

One to Illinois and one to Oklahoma. This is all bullshit hype you've been fed. For true.

It is certainly NOT bullshit. Take a look at the "Why Is Gas So High?" thread. You need to get it out of your head that Exxon/Mobile is an "American" company.

Every tanker that leaves the Gulf of Mexico with refined gasoline costs the American consumer at the pump with artificially high prices because the refineries can only produce a certain limited amount. The notion you do not understand this simple fact astounds me.

Huggy. Go to this link. Then go to your government and verbally beat the shit out of your representatives.

Don't blame Exxon Mobile. Get a grip. Blame your greedy government.

The map above from API shows gasoline taxes by state (combined local, state and federal), which range from a low of 26.4 cents per gallon in Alaska to a high of of 66.1 cents per gallon in California, averaging 48.1 cents per gallon across all states.

How does that compare to oil company industry profits per gallon?
According to this post on Exxon Mobil’s Perspective Blog , “For every gallon of gasoline, diesel or finished products we manufactured and sold in the United States in the last three months of 2010, we earned a little more than 2 cents per gallon. That’s not a typo. Two cents.”
The chart below shows the difference graphically:

Gasoline Taxes Vs. Exxon Profit, Per Gallon

You believe the oil companies only make a profit of two cents on a gallon of gasoline?

Wow! I see no reason to invest any more time with your thought process. I've been staying away a lot recently. Not wanting to be excessively rude but you are REALLY stupid...the government does not and isn't supposed to run at a profit. You thinking that our government is "greedy" makes no sense. We don't have a system like Lybia where a leader can stash away billions of our dollars. You make no sense at all. Not surprising...it isn't hard to see where you get your information.

 

[Crackerjack]

There i nothing in writing so I guess all we have is hope for the good will of the Canadian oil companies.

My company contracts with all those companies. They hire local people. There'd be no reason at all not to hire local people. Why would you? It's cheaper to hire locals.

I don't know, maybe the unskilled labor but skilled and tech upport is more than likely on their staff so it will likely be a mix of Canadians, Americans and Mexicans.

They farm all that stuff out to companies like mine.

Okay, look here, this is not my company, it's a competitor, but it should show you exactly what it is that Enbridge would be contracting us to do:

Land and right of way acquisition services for pipeline, public works, government, electric power and telecom industries nationwide.

After they're done, they hand it back to Enbridge, which employs people from the US to install and maintain the pipeline via it's US branch:

Home - Enbridge US

 

[uscitizen]

Land and right of way aquisition?

Using eminent domain for a private venture?

they should be real capitalists instead of using the government.
Pay whatever the market demands for the right of way.

 

[Crackerjack]

Land and right of way aquisition?

Using eminent domain for a private venture?

they should be real capitalists instead of using the government.
Pay whatever the market demands for the right of way.

A very small number of tracts go to eminent domain proceedings, where they are given what the market will pay.

Anyway, I'd love to hear how you'd build a pipeline (that lowers the cost of petroleum, which lowers the cost of EVERYTHING) in a cost effective manner without it. Obviously you've got all the answers.

 

[Truthseeker420]

My company contracts with all those companies. They hire local people. There'd be no reason at all not to hire local people. Why would you? It's cheaper to hire locals.

I don't know, maybe the unskilled labor but skilled and tech upport is more than likely on their staff so it will likely be a mix of Canadians, Americans and Mexicans.

They farm all that stuff out to companies like mine.

Okay, look here, this is not my company, it's a competitor, but it should show you exactly what it is that Enbridge would be contracting us to do:

Land and right of way acquisition services for pipeline, public works, government, electric power and telecom industries nationwide.

After they're done, they hand it back to Enbridge, which employs people from the US to install and maintain the pipeline via it's US branch:

Home - Enbridge US

Interesting,thank you. You seem very astute on the matter of labor of pipeline being in the business and I understand your passionate support for the pipeline. My main concern as a midwesterner is the higher price of oil it will bring to the midwest. But I think Obama made the right decision and nothing is wrong with doing more study on the project.

 

[Crackerjack]

I don't know, maybe the unskilled labor but skilled and tech upport is more than likely on their staff so it will likely be a mix of Canadians, Americans and Mexicans.

They farm all that stuff out to companies like mine.

Okay, look here, this is not my company, it's a competitor, but it should show you exactly what it is that Enbridge would be contracting us to do:

Land and right of way acquisition services for pipeline, public works, government, electric power and telecom industries nationwide.

After they're done, they hand it back to Enbridge, which employs people from the US to install and maintain the pipeline via it's US branch:

Home - Enbridge US

Interesting,thank you. You seem very astute on the matter of labor of pipeline being in the business and I understand your passionate support for the pipeline. My main concern as a midwesterner is the higher price of oil it will bring to the midwest. But I think Obama made the right decision and nothing is wrong with doing more study on the project.

My main issue is people thinking that this is the first time a pipeline like this has ever been built. Pipelines of various lengths and sizes are literally everywhere. This isn't new, untested technology. And as to the price of oil, I guarantee the price will be higher for everyone if this pipeline doesn't get built and Canada sells it to China, who sells the refined product back to us.

Anyway, thanks for looking at it from the other side of things.

 

[kwc57]

Please explain how having a greater supply of something will drive the price up absent and insane amount of greater demand.

If "The extra Supply" was for our use you would be correct. The system is being gamed right now as much of the oil produced here is refined for other markets. More production for these other markets means less available for our domestic consumption as the capacity of the refineries is finite. I hope you understand the significance of this information. If the American public does not "Get This" we will be all paying a lot more for gasoline and all your bellyaching about Obama will not make it OK. Some of the republicans in Congress will do ANYTHING to make Obama look bad...even let the multinational oil companies rob billions from us by artificially restricting how much refined gasoline is available from the very oil that comes out of the ground here in our country.

So, you're saying that the oil companies will refine this oil for foreign consumption only and will ignore the US as a customer, thus driving our prices up because there won't be enough supply for us? How do you manage to put your pants on each morning?

 

[BlindBoo]

I'm trying to wrap my brain about a pipeline going to the Gulf to sell Canadian oil to China.

Ok. Now my brain really hurts. I've seen this argument before from individuals who obviously have no concept of geography.

Why would we go all the way to the Gulf to sell oil to China?

If the line isn't built? the OIL will go to China.

It's bitumen. China doesn't have the refineries to handle the sludge. It will be piped to the gulf refineriers that are geared up to refine it. Then the refined product will be sold on the open market.

 

[kwc57]

What else were you hoping to have addressed that hasn't already been?

I posted three links and you seeed to dimiss my first link as,I assume, biased so I posted a link directly to TransCanda report which confirms my assertion that it would raise ol prices of oil in the midwest.

It will raise the price of gasoline for the whole country. What is it about the words "finite refining capacity" that you people do not get? That pipeline oil is not coming here for our use. It will be refined in our refineries and the products sold overseas. That means less refined gas for us you dolts! "Less supply equals higher prices" ring a bell???? Anyone working on this pipeline or promoting it should be shot for treason....after a fair trial of course.

And whick party is responsible for our finite refining capacity? You are aware that oil companies want to build bigger, better, safer, more efficient refineries don't you? Who keeps holding them up? The same people who oppose building the pipeline. The same people who think they can power their cars on sunlight and wind. The Democrats.

 

[kwc57]

What information did you want me to look at? I would be happy to look a it but doubt it would be more credible than the link fom TrnsCanada report I posted 3 times.

So you have a synapse on the grassy knoll?

The 'taking property' argument is as silly as a jelly bean and the safety/environment argument falls flat on its face because there are already millions of existing pipelines in the US.

Bring on that grassy knoll synapse again.

Eminent domain is just a side issue from my original point but they aRe planning on building new pipe and it is going(as proposed) through private and public land.

And I do have thoughts on the Assasination JFK But I'll save that for another thread.

Have you ever seen a pipeline? I've lived in Oklahoma which is crisscrossed with pipelines for 54 years and I've never seen one.........because they are underground. You are aware that the pipelines are buried very deep aren't you? Deep enough that farmers can run their equipment over them with no concern that a pipeline is even there. You are also aware that the company building the pipeline pays the owner to put the pipeline thru their property and then restores the land back to it's original state when finished aren't you? You do relaize that we aren't talking about a pipeline like the Alaska pipeline that is built above ground aren't you?

Evidently not.

 

[Crackerjack]

So you have a synapse on the grassy knoll?

The 'taking property' argument is as silly as a jelly bean and the safety/environment argument falls flat on its face because there are already millions of existing pipelines in the US.

Bring on that grassy knoll synapse again.

Eminent domain is just a side issue from my original point but they aRe planning on building new pipe and it is going(as proposed) through private and public land.

And I do have thoughts on the Assasination JFK But I'll save that for another thread.

Have you ever seen a pipeline? I've lived in Oklahoma which is crisscrossed with pipelines for 54 years and I've never seen one.........because they are underground. You are aware that the pipelines are buried very deep aren't you? Deep enough that farmers can run their equipment over them with no concern that a pipeline is even there. You are also aware that the company building the pipeline pays the owner to put the pipeline thru their property and then restores the land back to it's original state when finished aren't you? You do relaize that we aren't talking about a pipeline like the Alaska pipeline that is built above ground aren't you?

Evidently not.

Next time any of you goes driving around, keep an eye out for one of these markers:

Once you start looking for them, you'll realize how ubiquitous pipelines really are.
​

 

[BlindBoo]

It is illegal to export crude oil from the US.

What moron came up with that idea?

Like...how would china survive if it was illegal to export plasma TVs to the US? When they export a barrel of plasma TVs, we send something of value in return.

Crude oil exports are restricted to: (1) crude oil derived from fields under the State waters of Alaska's Cook Inlet; (2) Alaskan North Slope crude oil; (3) certain domestically produced crude oil destined for Canada; (4) shipments to U.S. territories; and (5) California crude oil to Pacific Rim countries

Crude oil? We don't export a significant amount. Now refined petroleum products is another story. Here:

U.S. Exports of Crude Oil and Petroleum Products

 

[Martinsamerica]

Lets say that this premise is true, that the pipeline would raise oil prices. What will also raise the prices are the Mid-east either blocking prouction/exportation of their oil, or their wells simply start drying up. At least with the pipeline, the United States would have greater access to the flow of oil.

Martin's America - Home

 

[kwc57]

They farm all that stuff out to companies like mine.

Okay, look here, this is not my company, it's a competitor, but it should show you exactly what it is that Enbridge would be contracting us to do:

Land and right of way acquisition services for pipeline, public works, government, electric power and telecom industries nationwide.

After they're done, they hand it back to Enbridge, which employs people from the US to install and maintain the pipeline via it's US branch:

Home - Enbridge US

Interesting,thank you. You seem very astute on the matter of labor of pipeline being in the business and I understand your passionate support for the pipeline. My main concern as a midwesterner is the higher price of oil it will bring to the midwest. But I think Obama made the right decision and nothing is wrong with doing more study on the project.

My main issue is people thinking that this is the first time a pipeline like this has ever been built. Pipelines of various lengths and sizes are literally everywhere. This isn't new, untested technology. And as to the price of oil, I guarantee the price will be higher for everyone if this pipeline doesn't get built and Canada sells it to China, who sells the refined product back to us.

Anyway, thanks for looking at it from the other side of things.

Perhaps this will help some of the folks out there who don't understand.

View attachment 16979

 

[HUGGY]

I posted three links and you seeed to dimiss my first link as,I assume, biased so I posted a link directly to TransCanda report which confirms my assertion that it would raise ol prices of oil in the midwest.

It will raise the price of gasoline for the whole country. What is it about the words "finite refining capacity" that you people do not get? That pipeline oil is not coming here for our use. It will be refined in our refineries and the products sold overseas. That means less refined gas for us you dolts! "Less supply equals higher prices" ring a bell???? Anyone working on this pipeline or promoting it should be shot for treason....after a fair trial of course.

And whick party is responsible for our finite refining capacity? You are aware that oil companies want to build bigger, better, safer, more efficient refineries don't you? Who keeps holding them up? The same people who oppose building the pipeline. The same people who think they can power their cars on sunlight and wind. The Democrats.

It seems that you do not understand the economics of supply and demand. You REALLY think the oil corps cannot build more refining capacity? If there is more refined gasoline available to the American public the price at the pump would drop accordingly along with the profits to the oil corps. You REALLY think that with all of the clout of the current profit of big oil that they could not lobby for places to build refineries? Blaming high gas prices on any one political party is beyond ignorant.

 

[Crackerjack]

It will raise the price of gasoline for the whole country. What is it about the words "finite refining capacity" that you people do not get? That pipeline oil is not coming here for our use. It will be refined in our refineries and the products sold overseas. That means less refined gas for us you dolts! "Less supply equals higher prices" ring a bell???? Anyone working on this pipeline or promoting it should be shot for treason....after a fair trial of course.

And whick party is responsible for our finite refining capacity? You are aware that oil companies want to build bigger, better, safer, more efficient refineries don't you? Who keeps holding them up? The same people who oppose building the pipeline. The same people who think they can power their cars on sunlight and wind. The Democrats.

It seems that you do not understand the economics of supply and demand. You REALLY think the oil corps cannot build more refining capacity? If there is more refined gasoline available to the American public the price at the pump would drop accordingly along with the profits to the oil corps. You REALLY think that with all of the clout of the current profit of big oil that they could not lobby for places to build refineries? Blaming high gas prices on any one political party is beyond ignorant.

The last refinery built in the US was in 1976.

So much for that all-powerful Big Oil lobby.

 

[Luddly Neddite]

Lets say that this premise is true, that the pipeline would raise oil prices. What will also raise the prices are the Mid-east either blocking prouction/exportation of their oil, or their wells simply start drying up. At least with the pipeline, the United States would have greater access to the flow of oil.

Martin's America - Home

How?

What little oil that will result will be sold on the world market.

Why can't the rws understand this simple fact?