Obama Got It Right: Tar Sands Pipeline Would Drive Up Prices

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Gas prices: Keystone XL will increase gas prices for Americans—Especially Farmers
•By draining Midwestern refineries of cheap Canadian crude into export-oriented refineries in the Gulf Coast, Keystone XL will increase the cost of gas for Americans.
•TransCanada’s 2008 Permit Application states “Existing markets for Canadian heavy crude, principally PADD II [U.S. Midwest], are currently oversupplied, resulting in price discounting for Canadian heavy crude oil. Access to the USGC [U.S. Gulf Coast] via the Keystone XL Pipeline is expected to strengthen Canadian crude oil pricing in [the Midwest] by removing this oversupply. This is expected to increase the price of heavy crude to the equivalent cost of imported crude. The resultant increase in the price of heavy crude is estimated to provide an increase in annual revenue to the Canadian producing industry in 2013 of US $2 billion to US $3.9 billion.”
•Independent analysis of these figures found this would increase per-gallon prices by 20 cents/gallon in the Midwest.
•According to an independent analysis U.S. farmers, who spent $12.4 billion on fuel in 2009 could see expenses rise to $15 billion or higher in 2012 or 2013 if the pipeline goes through. At least $500 million of the added expense would come from the Canadian market manipulation

Key Facts on Keystone XL | Tar Sands Action

This is to funny.

The price of Canadia crude is in relation to what they can get other crudes for. Once they take into account properties and transportation, they will argue over fractions of cent. And you think they are going to get 20 cents /gallon more ?

I have a bridge to sell you somewhere.

If canada manipulates the market, saudi crude will come rushing in. Or domestic crudes will take over.

That anyone would post this drivel is beyond pale.

How did you mange the quote reversal?

 

[martybegan]

[/The construction of the Keystone XL pipeline will raise oil prices for Midwestern Americans. In official analysis provided to the Canadian National Energy Board, TransCanada reveals that the Keystone XL pipeline will raise oil prices throughout the Midwest and increase annual revenue to the Canadian tar sands industry in 2013 to the tune of between US $2 – $3.9 billion.1American families should not be forced to pay higher prices at the pump only to the line the pockets of the oil industry.

About Keystone XL:

•The Keystone XL pipeline is a 2,000 mile pipeline that would transport crude oil derived from Canadian tar sands from Alberta to Texas.
•The pipeline will raise gas and diesel prices in the Midwest, where they are already among the highest in the country. It is estimated that the added cost of the pipeline would be roughly equal to 15 cents per gallon, driving up the cost of living for families at a time when Americans can least afford it.
•The total drain on America’s economy and pocket books could total as much as $3.9 billion annually in 2013, according to what TransCanada told Canada’s National Energy Board.
•Any jobs created will be offset by the higher price of gas and the layoffs that result from the higher cost of doing business. Further, they will be temporary and may not go to local residents, or even Americans.
•TransCanada will generate billions of dollars in profits at the expense of American consumers, and that money will go back to Canada, deepening the U.S. deficit.
•The pipeline will facilitate Canadian crude oil exports to China, not the United States. The market for Canadian crude oil in the Gulf is small. Americans wouldn’t benefit from the crude oil piped in through the Keystone XL.

QUOTE]

Mid West Gas Prices - Dirty Oil Sands | A Threat to the New Energy Economy

So basically just some talking point blurbs with ZERO backup material. About the only factual item is the length of the pipeline, and that it transports crude oil.

The rest is hazy opinion, nothing more.

 

[Truthseeker420]

Here is a link to the study:
http://www.ilr.cornell.edu/globallaborinstitute/research/upload/GLI_KeystoneXL_Reportpdf-2.pdf

Page 27 you will find the TransCanada report.

 

[Truthseeker420]

[/The construction of the Keystone XL pipeline will raise oil prices for Midwestern Americans. In official analysis provided to the Canadian National Energy Board, TransCanada reveals that the Keystone XL pipeline will raise oil prices throughout the Midwest and increase annual revenue to the Canadian tar sands industry in 2013 to the tune of between US $2 – $3.9 billion.1American families should not be forced to pay higher prices at the pump only to the line the pockets of the oil industry.

About Keystone XL:

•The Keystone XL pipeline is a 2,000 mile pipeline that would transport crude oil derived from Canadian tar sands from Alberta to Texas.
•The pipeline will raise gas and diesel prices in the Midwest, where they are already among the highest in the country. It is estimated that the added cost of the pipeline would be roughly equal to 15 cents per gallon, driving up the cost of living for families at a time when Americans can least afford it.
•The total drain on America’s economy and pocket books could total as much as $3.9 billion annually in 2013, according to what TransCanada told Canada’s National Energy Board.
•Any jobs created will be offset by the higher price of gas and the layoffs that result from the higher cost of doing business. Further, they will be temporary and may not go to local residents, or even Americans.
•TransCanada will generate billions of dollars in profits at the expense of American consumers, and that money will go back to Canada, deepening the U.S. deficit.
•The pipeline will facilitate Canadian crude oil exports to China, not the United States. The market for Canadian crude oil in the Gulf is small. Americans wouldn’t benefit from the crude oil piped in through the Keystone XL.

QUOTE]

Mid West Gas Prices - Dirty Oil Sands | A Threat to the New Energy Economy

So basically just some talking point blurbs with ZERO backup material. About the only factual item is the length of the pipeline, and that it transports crude oil.

The rest is hazy opinion, nothing more.

http://www.ilr.cornell.edu/globallaborinstitute/research/upload/GLI_KeystoneXL_Reportpdf-2.pdf

 

[bripat9643]

Here is a link to the study:
http://www.ilr.cornell.edu/globallaborinstitute/research/upload/GLI_KeystoneXL_Reportpdf-2.pdf

Page 27 you will find the TransCanada report.

You claimed the pipeline company performed the study, not some left-wing university propaganda organ. I doubt anyone would consider the Global Labor Institute to be an unbiased source.

According to the document, the price of gas in the Midwest would increase because Canadian oil that is currently being marketed there would be diverted to the Gulf Coast where it can be exported. There isn't enough information to verify this claim. Any claims about future prices based on predictions of future supply are about as reliable as predictions about the weather.

The rest of the claims in the study concern the incidence of oil spills and the amount of labor that will eventually be employed. I have no way to verify or dispute any of these claims. However, the source simply isn't credible. I would never take the word of some ultra left-wing think tank that is obviously hostile to industry of any kind.

The study claims that many jobs will be lost as a result of "climate change." That is obviously bullshit. That alone destroys any meager credibility it may have enjoyed.

 

[Truthseeker420]

Here is a link to the study:
http://www.ilr.cornell.edu/globallaborinstitute/research/upload/GLI_KeystoneXL_Reportpdf-2.pdf

Page 27 you will find the TransCanada report.

You claimed the pipeline company performed the study, not some left-wing university propaganda organ. I doubt anyone would consider the Global Labor Institute to be an unbiased source.

According to the document, the price of gas in the Midwest would increase because Canadian oil that is currently being marketed there would be diverted to the Gulf Coast where it can be exported. There isn't enough information to verify this claim. Any claims about future prices based on predictions of future supply are about as reliable as predictions about the weather.

The rest of the claims in the study concern the incidence of oil spills and the amount of labor that will eventually be employed. I have no way to verify or dispute any of these claims. However, the source simply isn't credible. I would never take the word of some ultra left-wing think tank that is obviously hostile to industry of any kind.

The study claims that many jobs will be lost as a result of "climate change." That is obviously bullshit. That alone destroys any meager credibility it may have enjoyed.

There is a link on page 27 to TransCanada report.

 

[martybegan]

Here is a link to the study:
http://www.ilr.cornell.edu/globallaborinstitute/research/upload/GLI_KeystoneXL_Reportpdf-2.pdf

Page 27 you will find the TransCanada report.

You claimed the pipeline company performed the study, not some left-wing university propaganda organ. I doubt anyone would consider the Global Labor Institute to be an unbiased source.

According to the document, the price of gas in the Midwest would increase because Canadian oil that is currently being marketed there would be diverted to the Gulf Coast where it can be exported. There isn't enough information to verify this claim. Any claims about future prices based on predictions of future supply are about as reliable as predictions about the weather.

The rest of the claims in the study concern the incidence of oil spills and the amount of labor that will eventually be employed. I have no way to verify or dispute any of these claims. However, the source simply isn't credible. I would never take the word of some ultra left-wing think tank that is obviously hostile to industry of any kind.

The study claims that many jobs will be lost as a result of "climate change." That is obviously bullshit. That alone destroys any meager credibility it may have enjoyed.

The best scenario is to assume the companies report is of course, optomistic, and this report, made by opponents of the pipeline, is of course, pessimisitic. One would then assume that the truth is somewhere in the middle.

What truthseeker420 and his ilk will do, however, is to assume that THIS study is the TRUTH, and only the companies report is biased.

Some of the problems I have with the report is to me they underreport the number of construction workers. Also construction work is BY ITS NATURE, temporary, and the industry is set up to deal with that.

As for the loss of flow to midwest refineries, how does the oil they get currently get there? Wouldnt the pipeline result in an increase in demand for oil sands? The report assumes a zero sum game, where production cannot be increased.

Finally, the report tends to ignore synergistic affects that, I am sure, they would LOVE to include in any "green" project that they support out of hand. For example, if a pump station has to be manned by 20 people total, the job increase is that 20 people, plus whatever increases are needed in the community they live in. To be fair, in this economy the jobs will probably replace those lost in other industries, thus RESTORING the ancillary jobs in the area, rather than creating new ones, but overall it is still an overall gain.

 

[Truthseeker420]

The netback price of a barrel of crude oil is calculated by taking the revenue that producers
receive for that oil and subtracting all the costs associated with getting that crude oil to a market.
The Keystone Application included a supply and markets assessment prepared by PGI. The PGI
assessment included an analysis of Canadian crude oil pricing related to the Keystone XL
Pipeline. PGI explained that producers would benefit from the Project because it would help
avoid a return to discounted heavy crude oil export prices that have occurred in the past, and help
to sustain strong prices in the U.S. Midwest and Hardisty, AB markets.
PGI indicated that historical price discounts at the USGC suggest that the supply of Canadian
heavy crudes has exceeded demand in traditional markets. Existing markets for Canadian heavy
crude, principally PADD II, are currently oversupplied, resulting in price discounting for
Canadian exports of heavy crude oil. It further stated that access to the USGC via the Keystone
XL Pipeline is expected to strengthen Canadian crude oil pricing in PADD II by removing over
supply.
Since 2006, the price of Cold Lake Blend has been discounted compared with the price of
Mexican Maya heavy crude oil at the USGC. This price discount suggests that the supply of
Canadian heavy crudes has exceeded demand in their main markets north of the USGC. PGI
submitted that in 2008, the average discount for Cold Lake Blend at the USGC was
approximately US$3.24 per barrel. It indicated that by increasing market access for Canadian
heavy crudes, this discount should be avoided in the future. If the Keystone XL Pipeline causes
the USGC price discount to be eliminated, PGI estimated the annual revenue increase to the
Canadian producing industry at US$2.0 billion. In addition, if the Keystone XL Pipeline causes
the Midwest price to rise above USGC parity, the annual revenue to Canadian producers could
increase by a further US$1.9 billion, reaching approximately US$3.9 billion

This is from the TransCanada report page 21
https://www.neb-one.gc.ca/ll-eng/li...asons_for_Decision.pdf?nodeid=604637&vernum=0

 

[Listening]

The netback price of a barrel of crude oil is calculated by taking the revenue that producers
receive for that oil and subtracting all the costs associated with getting that crude oil to a market.
The Keystone Application included a supply and markets assessment prepared by PGI. The PGI
assessment included an analysis of Canadian crude oil pricing related to the Keystone XL
Pipeline. PGI explained that producers would benefit from the Project because it would help
avoid a return to discounted heavy crude oil export prices that have occurred in the past, and help
to sustain strong prices in the U.S. Midwest and Hardisty, AB markets.
PGI indicated that historical price discounts at the USGC suggest that the supply of Canadian
heavy crudes has exceeded demand in traditional markets. Existing markets for Canadian heavy
crude, principally PADD II, are currently oversupplied, resulting in price discounting for
Canadian exports of heavy crude oil. It further stated that access to the USGC via the Keystone
XL Pipeline is expected to strengthen Canadian crude oil pricing in PADD II by removing over
supply.
Since 2006, the price of Cold Lake Blend has been discounted compared with the price of
Mexican Maya heavy crude oil at the USGC. This price discount suggests that the supply of
Canadian heavy crudes has exceeded demand in their main markets north of the USGC. PGI
submitted that in 2008, the average discount for Cold Lake Blend at the USGC was
approximately US$3.24 per barrel. It indicated that by increasing market access for Canadian
heavy crudes, this discount should be avoided in the future. If the Keystone XL Pipeline causes
the USGC price discount to be eliminated, PGI estimated the annual revenue increase to the
Canadian producing industry at US$2.0 billion. In addition, if the Keystone XL Pipeline causes
the Midwest price to rise above USGC parity, the annual revenue to Canadian producers could
increase by a further US$1.9 billion, reaching approximately US$3.9 billion

This is from the TransCanada report page 21
https://www.neb-one.gc.ca/ll-eng/li...asons_for_Decision.pdf?nodeid=604637&vernum=0

This is silly.

In the end, refiners will turn a barrel of oil into gasoline and diesel (along with some gas and coke). If they can't come out on top by running diffeent crudes, it won't happen.

End of story. End of game.

Obama does not have it right. In the end the consumer will improve his position via the pipeline or it won't get built. To claim otherwise is an out and out lie to the American people.

It is like saying we are going to stop another competitor from entering the airline industry because it will raise prices. How in the hell would that happen ?

 

[Charles_Main]

It's not about lowering prices, it's about securing a good source of oil from a close, friendly ally, instead of buying from Countries ran by questionable governments that wish to see us harmed.

You guys are unbelievable.

not going to America it is going to the world market

Wrong, it's going to US Refineries for distribution to the US, and yes Abroad. As apposed to going to China via a Pipe line to the West.

There is no denying that the Pipe line going to US Refineries, as opposed to China, will result in the US needing that much less Crude from the Middle East, and Hugo.

Period.

 

[Crackerjack]

Don't forget the fact you are stealing peoples land to build this pipeline.

You are completely and thoroughly full of shit. The going rate these days in Texas is $400 to $500 per rod (16.5") of pipeline, last I heard. And that's more than likely what the pipeline company is going to give for the land if they get an easement via condemnation, too. The pipelines are typically buried at least 36" deep, so it's not any sort of impediment to grazing or raising crops. Hell, if you're savvy enough, you can even get the pipeline company to double ditch for you, and put back the topsoil on top of the pipeline. Once the grass grows back (which the pipeline company is responsible for reseeding) or the next crop is planted (and any damage to current crops will be remunerated to the landowner up front), the only way anyone would know the pipeline is there without consulting a map is by seeing the lollipops every so often telling you that it's there.

By the way, most of those jobs will go to Americans. How do I know? Because I do one of those jobs, so I know what the fuck I'm talking about. And let me tell you, it's going to take years and years and a shit-ton of people to put this thing in the ground. All we're waiting for is for the douchenozzles in DC to nut up and approve this thing. So please, since you don't know a transfer station from your own well-used anus, kindly sit the fuck down and shut your cockholster and let those of us who aren't completely ignorant on this subject get to fucking work on it.

There's a little truth for you. Sorry if it hurts.

 

[Truthseeker420]

Don't forget the fact you are stealing peoples land to build this pipeline.

You are completely and thoroughly full of shit. The going rate these days in Texas is $400 to $500 per rod (16.5") of pipeline, last I heard. And that's more than likely what the pipeline company is going to give for the land if they get an easement via condemnation, too. The pipelines are typically buried at least 36" deep, so it's not any sort of impediment to grazing or raising crops. Hell, if you're savvy enough, you can even get the pipeline company to double ditch for you, and put back the topsoil on top of the pipeline. Once the grass grows back (which the pipeline company is responsible for reseeding) or the next crop is planted (and any damage to current crops will be remunerated to the landowner up front), the only way anyone would know the pipeline is there without consulting a map is by seeing the lollipops every so often telling you that it's there.

By the way, most of those jobs will go to Americans. How do I know? Because I do one of those jobs, so I know what the fuck I'm talking about. And let me tell you, it's going to take years and years and a shit-ton of people to put this thing in the ground. All we're waiting for is for the douchenozzles in DC to nut up and approve this thing. So please, since you don't know a transfer station from your own well-used anus, kindly sit the fuck down and shut your cockholster and let those of us who aren't completely ignorant on this subject get to fucking work on it.

There's a little truth for you. Sorry if it hurts.

No you are full of shit, I don't give a fuck what the going rate is or is not, if you put a pipeline through through someone's property for profit motive without their permisssion it is stealing their land.

and the I'm beautiful because I say I am aurgument doesn't work(i.e. "How do I know? Because I do one of those jobs,")

And you are the one that sounds angry and butthurt.

 

[Katzndogz]

If the oil goes to China, it is a net GAIN for liberals. They can drive up the cost of energy destroy jobs, THEN get to complain that the corporation puts profits above people by shipping oil to China.

 

[Truthseeker420]

If the oil goes to China, it is a net GAIN for liberals. They can drive up the cost of energy destroy jobs, THEN get to complain that the corporation puts profits above people by shipping oil to China.

What?

 

[Mr. H.]

Don't forget the fact you are stealing peoples land to build this pipeline.

You are completely and thoroughly full of shit. The going rate these days in Texas is $400 to $500 per rod (16.5") of pipeline, last I heard. And that's more than likely what the pipeline company is going to give for the land if they get an easement via condemnation, too. The pipelines are typically buried at least 36" deep, so it's not any sort of impediment to grazing or raising crops. Hell, if you're savvy enough, you can even get the pipeline company to double ditch for you, and put back the topsoil on top of the pipeline. Once the grass grows back (which the pipeline company is responsible for reseeding) or the next crop is planted (and any damage to current crops will be remunerated to the landowner up front), the only way anyone would know the pipeline is there without consulting a map is by seeing the lollipops every so often telling you that it's there.

By the way, most of those jobs will go to Americans. How do I know? Because I do one of those jobs, so I know what the fuck I'm talking about. And let me tell you, it's going to take years and years and a shit-ton of people to put this thing in the ground. All we're waiting for is for the douchenozzles in DC to nut up and approve this thing. So please, since you don't know a transfer station from your own well-used anus, kindly sit the fuck down and shut your cockholster and let those of us who aren't completely ignorant on this subject get to fucking work on it.

There's a little truth for you. Sorry if it hurts.

No you are full of shit, I don't give a fuck what the going rate is or is not, if you put a pipeline through through someone's property for profit motive without their permisssion it is stealing their land.

and the I'm beautiful because I say I am aurgument doesn't work(i.e. "How do I know? Because I do one of those jobs,")

And you are the one that sounds angry and butthurt.

It's safe to say that between Crackerjack and myself, we've got probably a combined 50 years experience in varying facets of ths industry.

What are your credentials, titwad?

 

[CrusaderFrank]

Oil and gas: According to Liberals the only commodities completely impervious so the laws of supply and demand

Now you see why we have annual deficits bigger than any Reagan budget, right?

 

[Dragon]

Only one person on this thread has responded in a rational and honest way, and that's Inthemiddle.

Of course one's initial reaction to the idea that the pipeline will RAISE oil prices is "WTF?" That was mine, too. Obviously, it was Inthemiddle's, because it started him on a quest for more information. But for many of you, it sparked nothing but knee-jerk dismissal.

It's important to be fact-based. It turns out that there IS a good reason why the pipeline might cause rising oil prices, involving an increase on the tolls the pipeline companies charge the oil companies for transporting the oil. This will increase the cost to bring a substantial portion of Canadian oil to the refinery, which will indeed push the price up -- if all of that's true.

The source of the initial post is suspect, and on the face of it the idea goes against basic economic theory. What that SHOULD make you do, is question it AND SEEK ANSWERS.

What it should not make you do -- but apparently for many of you does -- is cause you to assume you already KNOW the answer.

 

[CrusaderFrank]

It's instantly dismissed because its pathetically stupid

 

[Dragon]

It's instantly dismissed because its pathetically stupid

No, it's not. ITM's research showed that there is a plausible reason to believe it might work that way.

To instantly dismiss it is what's pathetically stupid.

 

[kwc57]

[/The construction of the Keystone XL pipeline will raise oil prices for Midwestern Americans. In official analysis provided to the Canadian National Energy Board, TransCanada reveals that the Keystone XL pipeline will raise oil prices throughout the Midwest and increase annual revenue to the Canadian tar sands industry in 2013 to the tune of between US $2 – $3.9 billion.1American families should not be forced to pay higher prices at the pump only to the line the pockets of the oil industry.

About Keystone XL:

•The Keystone XL pipeline is a 2,000 mile pipeline that would transport crude oil derived from Canadian tar sands from Alberta to Texas.
•The pipeline will raise gas and diesel prices in the Midwest, where they are already among the highest in the country. It is estimated that the added cost of the pipeline would be roughly equal to 15 cents per gallon, driving up the cost of living for families at a time when Americans can least afford it.
•The total drain on America’s economy and pocket books could total as much as $3.9 billion annually in 2013, according to what TransCanada told Canada’s National Energy Board.
•Any jobs created will be offset by the higher price of gas and the layoffs that result from the higher cost of doing business. Further, they will be temporary and may not go to local residents, or even Americans.
•TransCanada will generate billions of dollars in profits at the expense of American consumers, and that money will go back to Canada, deepening the U.S. deficit.
•The pipeline will facilitate Canadian crude oil exports to China, not the United States. The market for Canadian crude oil in the Gulf is small. Americans wouldn’t benefit from the crude oil piped in through the Keystone XL.

QUOTE]

Mid West Gas Prices - Dirty Oil Sands | A Threat to the New Energy Economy

Written in the spirit of Joseph Goebbels.