Obama Plans to Scrap Missle Defense Shield?

[Si modo]

Well Si if you don't know how missile defense works or more precisely DOESN'T work then you really don't have an opinion worth taking seriously.

If you want to convince him, maybe find a link for him - to a reliable source - where it is detailed for him. By simply repeating something over and over you wouldn't convince me either. I've read about it a couple of years back, so I know what you're talking about ...

Just sayin' ...

LOL. This coming from one who just a few posts ago compared this system with the USA-based missile defense systems. This coming from the one who has no idea why the Azerbaijan radar is of no use to this system.

Just sayin'....

 

[DiveCon]

Well Si if you don't know how missile defense works or more precisely DOESN'T work then you really don't have an opinion worth taking seriously.

what it seems YOU dont understand is the multilayered system

 

[Neser Boha]

Well Si if you don't know how missile defense works or more precisely DOESN'T work then you really don't have an opinion worth taking seriously.

If you want to convince him, maybe find a link for him - to a reliable source - where it is detailed for him. By simply repeating something over and over you wouldn't convince me either. I've read about it a couple of years back, so I know what you're talking about ...

Just sayin' ...

LOL. This coming from one who just a few posts ago compared this system with the USA-based missile defense systems. This coming from the one who has no idea why the Azerbaijan radar is of no use to this system.

Just sayin'....

Oh yeah ... because it is such common knowledge.

I did not make any attempt at comparing the two. I never claimed to have any knowledge of the systems except for the fact that I've read that the one currently in place is ineffectual. I don't think you 'know' anything either - besides what you 'read' from other sources. Whether or not the Azerbaijan radar is of no use I also do not know. How do you know? Maybe you could possibly provide a link to a reliable source? I wonder if any of you ever went to college as you're set on making just a bunch of unsubstantiated claims.

Btw, don't make the mistake of thinking that I actually want to be having this discussion with you. I couldn't give two shits about the defense shields - I'm solely interested in the political/geo-political situation regarding the issue.

The above, in which I addressed your opposer was supposed to be a friendly note of advice, nothing more. Also, it was directed solely at him.

 

[Si modo]

If you want to convince him, maybe find a link for him - to a reliable source - where it is detailed for him. By simply repeating something over and over you wouldn't convince me either. I've read about it a couple of years back, so I know what you're talking about ...

Just sayin' ...

LOL. This coming from one who just a few posts ago compared this system with the USA-based missile defense systems. This coming from the one who has no idea why the Azerbaijan radar is of no use to this system.

Just sayin'....

Oh yeah ... because it is such common knowledge.

I did not make any attempt at comparing the two. I never claimed to have any knowledge of the systems except for the fact that I've read that the one currently in place is ineffectual. I don't think you 'know' anything either - besides what you 'read' from other sources. Whether or not the Azerbaijan radar is of no use I also do not know. How do you know? Maybe you could possibly provide a link to a reliable source? I wonder if any of you ever went to college as you're set on making just a bunch of unsubstantiated claims.

Btw, don't make the mistake of thinking that I actually want to be having this discussion with you. I couldn't give two shits about the defense shields - I'm solely interested in the political/geo-political situation regarding the issue.

The above, in which I addressed your opposer was supposed to be a friendly note of advice, nothing more. Also, it was directed solely at him.

Your irrelevant musings aside as to any claims you imagine I have made about myself or any fantasies you have about what I am or am not, the former director of the MDA usually knows what he is talking about when it comes to missile defense.

....
The director of the Missile Defense Agency, Lieutenant General Henry Obering, pressed the Kremlin to drop its objections to American proposals for 10 antimissile interceptors in Poland and for a radar in the Czech Republic. In a speech here, the general urged Moscow to link its radar in Azerbaijan to the American system in Central Europe to assist collective security.

The visit to Azerbaijan by a high-level delegation of missile experts was a response to a proposal from President Vladimir Putin of Russia that the United States drop plans for the new construction in Central Europe and to use instead the Russian radar in a system to defend against a future Iranian threat.

"We are taking the Russian proposal seriously with respect to cooperation," Obering said to members of the European Institute in Washington. "So we are going to learn as much as we can about this."

But he also said that "we do not anticipate, and cannot see, that what they are proposing can take the place for what we are proposing for Poland and the Czech Republic." Based on current assessments of the Russian system, it is "not capable of performing the functions" of the American radar proposed for the Czech Republic, he said.

Specifically, the Russian radar in Azerbaijan has a broad view of the horizon and is useful for early warning, Obering said. The American system proposed for the Czech Republic is designed to have a quite narrow view, but one that is very detailed and exact, as required for tracking and targeting individual missiles.

The Russian system, he said, would be useful as a way to alert the rest of the missile-defense system to an Iranian attack and to help focus it, but that system cannot replace the function of the American radar.
....

WorldSecurityNetwork.com

If you're only interested in discussing geopolitical ramifications of defense then you would be best served to understand the systems in play.

 

[DiveCon]

this might help a few as well

Missile Defense Agency

 

[Neser Boha]

LOL. This coming from one who just a few posts ago compared this system with the USA-based missile defense systems. This coming from the one who has no idea why the Azerbaijan radar is of no use to this system.

Just sayin'....

Oh yeah ... because it is such common knowledge.

I did not make any attempt at comparing the two. I never claimed to have any knowledge of the systems except for the fact that I've read that the one currently in place is ineffectual. I don't think you 'know' anything either - besides what you 'read' from other sources. Whether or not the Azerbaijan radar is of no use I also do not know. How do you know? Maybe you could possibly provide a link to a reliable source? I wonder if any of you ever went to college as you're set on making just a bunch of unsubstantiated claims.

Btw, don't make the mistake of thinking that I actually want to be having this discussion with you. I couldn't give two shits about the defense shields - I'm solely interested in the political/geo-political situation regarding the issue.

The above, in which I addressed your opposer was supposed to be a friendly note of advice, nothing more. Also, it was directed solely at him.

Your irrelevant musings aside as to any claims you imagine I have made about myself or any fantasies you have about what I am or am not, the former director of the MDA usually knows what he is talking about when it comes to missile defense.

....
The director of the Missile Defense Agency, Lieutenant General Henry Obering, pressed the Kremlin to drop its objections to American proposals for 10 antimissile interceptors in Poland and for a radar in the Czech Republic. In a speech here, the general urged Moscow to link its radar in Azerbaijan to the American system in Central Europe to assist collective security.

The visit to Azerbaijan by a high-level delegation of missile experts was a response to a proposal from President Vladimir Putin of Russia that the United States drop plans for the new construction in Central Europe and to use instead the Russian radar in a system to defend against a future Iranian threat.

"We are taking the Russian proposal seriously with respect to cooperation," Obering said to members of the European Institute in Washington. "So we are going to learn as much as we can about this."

But he also said that "we do not anticipate, and cannot see, that what they are proposing can take the place for what we are proposing for Poland and the Czech Republic." Based on current assessments of the Russian system, it is "not capable of performing the functions" of the American radar proposed for the Czech Republic, he said.

Specifically, the Russian radar in Azerbaijan has a broad view of the horizon and is useful for early warning, Obering said. The American system proposed for the Czech Republic is designed to have a quite narrow view, but one that is very detailed and exact, as required for tracking and targeting individual missiles.

The Russian system, he said, would be useful as a way to alert the rest of the missile-defense system to an Iranian attack and to help focus it, but that system cannot replace the function of the American radar.
....

WorldSecurityNetwork.com

If you're only intereted in discussing geopolitical ramifications of defense then you would be best served to understand the systems in play.

I mentioned Azerbaijan because it was mentioned in the article whose link I posted above it. You so totally could have just posted this link without any additional snide comments aimed at insulting me and my intelligence, thank you very much.

 

[Xenophon]

there are more nations involved than france and britain. but those were the two nations who had a pact with poland before wwii. yawn, try to be not so transparent.

The only thing transparent is a western european telling us we have nothing to worry about if we let western europeans make decisions for central and eastern europeans, instead of letting those actually involved have a say.

the poles and the czechs were not going to be protected by the missile shield from the russians, hello?

Then why do the russians object.

Hello???

but the missile shield angered the bear, so the net balance for poles and czechs is negative.

And we should give a flying fuck what angers Russia because?

They don't own eastern europe anymore.

and what do poles and czechs have to say about that, you know the opinion of who you pretend to care about?

They are angry and disapointed by it, as anyone betrayed would be.

Nice try at the baghdad bob routine, loved the touch of adding a poll about poles.

Now to skip your inane propaganda and listen to, let's say, LECH WALESA who lead the soldiarity movement:

"I can see what kind of policy the Obama administration is pursuing toward this part of Europe," he said ruefully, adding: "The way we are being approached needs to change."

How about the Czechs?

Former Prime Minister Mirek Topolanek went on Czech radio to vent his frustrations.

"The Americans are not interested in this territory as they were before," he said. "It's bad news for the Czech Republic."

How about the current Czech gov?

But a prominent Czech legislator suggested the rebuff would have consequences should Washington ask for troops — or anything else.

"If the administration approaches us in the future with any request, I would be strongly against it," said Jan Vidim, a lawmaker with the conservative Civic Democratic Party, which had supported the missile defense plan.

Aleksander Szczyglo, head of Poland's National Security Office, characterized the change as a "defeat primarily of American long-distance thinking about the situation in this part of Europe."

"It's quite unfair," said Petr Boubin, 36, who owns a cafe in the Czech capital. "I think Obama is making too many concessions to Russia."

Eastern Europe grumbles about downgrade in US ties - Yahoo! News

So much for your propaganda and polls of poles.

 

[Si modo]

Oh yeah ... because it is such common knowledge.

I did not make any attempt at comparing the two. I never claimed to have any knowledge of the systems except for the fact that I've read that the one currently in place is ineffectual. I don't think you 'know' anything either - besides what you 'read' from other sources. Whether or not the Azerbaijan radar is of no use I also do not know. How do you know? Maybe you could possibly provide a link to a reliable source? I wonder if any of you ever went to college as you're set on making just a bunch of unsubstantiated claims.

Btw, don't make the mistake of thinking that I actually want to be having this discussion with you. I couldn't give two shits about the defense shields - I'm solely interested in the political/geo-political situation regarding the issue.

The above, in which I addressed your opposer was supposed to be a friendly note of advice, nothing more. Also, it was directed solely at him.

Your irrelevant musings aside as to any claims you imagine I have made about myself or any fantasies you have about what I am or am not, the former director of the MDA usually knows what he is talking about when it comes to missile defense.

....
The director of the Missile Defense Agency, Lieutenant General Henry Obering, pressed the Kremlin to drop its objections to American proposals for 10 antimissile interceptors in Poland and for a radar in the Czech Republic. In a speech here, the general urged Moscow to link its radar in Azerbaijan to the American system in Central Europe to assist collective security.

The visit to Azerbaijan by a high-level delegation of missile experts was a response to a proposal from President Vladimir Putin of Russia that the United States drop plans for the new construction in Central Europe and to use instead the Russian radar in a system to defend against a future Iranian threat.

"We are taking the Russian proposal seriously with respect to cooperation," Obering said to members of the European Institute in Washington. "So we are going to learn as much as we can about this."

But he also said that "we do not anticipate, and cannot see, that what they are proposing can take the place for what we are proposing for Poland and the Czech Republic." Based on current assessments of the Russian system, it is "not capable of performing the functions" of the American radar proposed for the Czech Republic, he said.

Specifically, the Russian radar in Azerbaijan has a broad view of the horizon and is useful for early warning, Obering said. The American system proposed for the Czech Republic is designed to have a quite narrow view, but one that is very detailed and exact, as required for tracking and targeting individual missiles.

The Russian system, he said, would be useful as a way to alert the rest of the missile-defense system to an Iranian attack and to help focus it, but that system cannot replace the function of the American radar.
....

WorldSecurityNetwork.com

If you're only intereted in discussing geopolitical ramifications of defense then you would be best served to understand the systems in play.

I mentioned Azerbaijan because it was mentioned in the article whose link I posted above it. You so totally could have just posted this link without any additional snide comments aimed at insulting me and my intelligence, thank you very much.

[Emphasis added] Hypocrits who whine are laugable.

 

[American Horse]

Missile defense in Eastern Europe mitigates the threat posed by Iranian missiles against Europe, dramatically reducing Iran's bargaining power when they finally develop nuclear weapons.

If you honestly believe international terrorists give a damn about nuclear geopolitics, you gravely misunderstand our foes.

First, Iran doesn't have a missile with that long of a range.
Second, just because a regime is our enemy does not mean they are suicidal madmen.

(first) - Pentagon: Iran's Domestic Satellite Launch Is Grave Cause for Concern - Political News - FOXNews.com
Iran's launch of its first satellite into space is a grave cause for concern to the U.S. as the Islamic Republic continues to work toward developing long-range missile capability, the Pentagon and White House said Tuesday.
The satellite -- called Omid or "Hope" in Farsi -- was launched late Monday on the 30th anniversary of the 1979 Islamic revolution.

(second) 12th Imam
[Ahmadinejad] claims that he is to personally prepare the world for the coming Mahdi. In order to save the world, it must be in a state of chaos and subjugation. Ahmadinejad claims he was “directed by Allah to pave the way for the glorious appearance of the Mahdi”..... say they have a ‘signed contract’ with al Mahdi in which they pledge themselves to his work.
.... He spoke to the United Nations in September ’05. During that speech he claims to have been in an aura of light and felt a change in the atmosphere during which time no one present could blink their eyes. ... he proclaims he must prepare the world for the coming Mahdi by way of a world totally under Muslim control. He is working hard to bring about the world-wide horrors that must be in place for their al Mahdi to bring peace.

 

[Stormbringer]

Article from Washington Post.

"Our new missile defense architecture in Europe will provide stronger, smarter, and swifter defenses of American forces and America's allies," Obama said in announcing the shift, which U.S. officials said was based mainly on a May U.S. intelligence assessment that Iran's program to build a nuclear-capable long-range missile would take three years to five years longer than originally expected.

The replacement system would link smaller radar systems with a network of sensors and missiles that could be deployed at sea or on land. Some of the weaponry and sensors are ready now, and the rest would be developed over the next 10 years.

You see? No reason to go for the jugular or get your panties in a wad ... it will happen eventually, it just won't be as offensive to Russia.

The Pentagon contemplates a system of perhaps 40 missiles by 2015, at two or three sites across Europe. That would augment a larger stockpile aboard ships. The replacement system would cost an estimated $2.5 billion, compared with $5 billion over the same timeframe under the old plan. The cost savings would be less, however, because the Pentagon is locked into work on some elements of the old system.

Now, those more fiscally CONSERVATIVE of you, should be yipeeing about this.

The change comes days before Obama is to meet with Russian President Dmitry Medvedev at the United Nations and the Group of 20 economic summit. Medvedev reacted positively, calling it a "responsible move."

"The U.S. president's decision is a well-thought-out and systematic one," said Konstantin Kosachev, head of the foreign affairs committee in the State Duma, the lower house of the Russian Parliament. "Now we can talk about restoration of the strategic partnership between Russia and the United States."

no because the ship board missiles are not really optimized for ICBM defense. they were created for short and medium range missiles. even though theoretically they could intercept a ICBM (if things went just right like the satellite shootdown) the reaction time for them and their opportunity to find and execute a firing solution would be severely limited. the GBM missile system however is optimized against ICBMs. and the reports about iran not developing ICBMS is clearly false. evidence: they successfully launched a satellite. and a rocket that can do that is by definition also an ICBM. also with their advances in solid rocket fueled two stage rocketry means that there will be no fueling signature at the launch site and the launch site does not have to be fixed. this means almost no advanced warning of a launch is possible. giving the sensor net and shooters less time to maneuver, acquire, lock on and fire. hence the system Obama proposes would perhaps protect Europe but would offer next to no protection to the continental US; unike Bushes version which would protect both.

 

[Chris]

I am glad we are no longer wasting money defending Poland from Iran.

We spend more money on defense than the rest of the world combined.

It's one of the main reasons we are going broke.

 

[L.K.Eder]

there are more nations involved than france and britain. but those were the two nations who had a pact with poland before wwii. yawn, try to be not so transparent.

The only thing transparent is a western european telling us we have nothing to worry about if we let western europeans make decisions for central and eastern europeans, instead of letting those actually involved have a say.

the poles and the czechs were not going to be protected by the missile shield from the russians, hello?

Then why do the russians object.

Hello???

but the missile shield angered the bear, so the net balance for poles and czechs is negative.

And we should give a flying fuck what angers Russia because?

They don't own eastern europe anymore.

and what do poles and czechs have to say about that, you know the opinion of who you pretend to care about?

They are angry and disapointed by it, as anyone betrayed would be.

Nice try at the baghdad bob routine, loved the touch of adding a poll about poles.

Now to skip your inane propaganda and listen to, let's say, LECH WALESA who lead the soldiarity movement:

"I can see what kind of policy the Obama administration is pursuing toward this part of Europe," he said ruefully, adding: "The way we are being approached needs to change."

How about the Czechs?

Former Prime Minister Mirek Topolanek went on Czech radio to vent his frustrations.

"The Americans are not interested in this territory as they were before," he said. "It's bad news for the Czech Republic."

How about the current Czech gov?

But a prominent Czech legislator suggested the rebuff would have consequences should Washington ask for troops — or anything else.

"If the administration approaches us in the future with any request, I would be strongly against it," said Jan Vidim, a lawmaker with the conservative Civic Democratic Party, which had supported the missile defense plan.

Aleksander Szczyglo, head of Poland's National Security Office, characterized the change as a "defeat primarily of American long-distance thinking about the situation in this part of Europe."

"It's quite unfair," said Petr Boubin, 36, who owns a cafe in the Czech capital. "I think Obama is making too many concessions to Russia."

Eastern Europe grumbles about downgrade in US ties - Yahoo! News

So much for your propaganda and polls of poles.

i posted the attitude of the czech and polish public towards the glorious missile defense shield. the public opinion you claim to care about.

the russians object because they probably don't buy the official explanation that this shield is protection against IRAN.

i also commented several times in this thread on the pure politics. thank you for posting this again, the FORMER leaders, and the politicians in the opposition, you know in opposition because the public does not agree with them, they are crying about this. this is like cheney, bush and bolton crying about this.

it is also very transparent that you think the mighty american is better equipped to make decisions for those poor eastern european nations without their democratic input.

have a nice day

 

[Xenophon]

i posted the attitude of the czech and polish public towards the glorious missile defense shield. the public opinion you claim to care about.

You posted polls and rumor, i posted quotes with names attached.

In short, YOU don't care about them, seeing as you want to lick Putin's nuts.

the russians object because they probably don't buy the official explanation that this shield is protection against IRAN.

Once again, so?

The Russians are not the masters of the world, and no, they aern't supposed to have a say in the affairs of other nations that don't like them.

Why are you so eiger to appease them?

You say they are no threat, then go on about how you want to kiss their ass.

it is also very transparent that you think the mighty american is better equipped to make decisions for those poor eastern european nations without their democratic input.

have a nice day

A statement that is truely monumental in cluelessness.

YOU are the one arguing that postion, and you say I think it!

 

[elvis]

Wasn't there an agreement between Reagan and Gorbachev that said Gorby would allow a united Germany only if we promised not to build a missile shield?

 

[Xenophon]

Those Euros are so happy about this, that the times gives us this headline:

Dismay in Europe as Obama ditches missile defence

Dismay in Europe as Obama ditches missile defence - Times Online

But of course, there was a poll so it's ok!

 

[Xenophon]

There is that line again, 'Dismay in Europe.'

FT.com / Europe - Obama under fire for U-turn on missiles

Quick, somebody take a poll!

 

[Xenophon]

A spokeswoman at the Polish Ministry of Defense also said the program had been suspended.

"This is catastrophic for Poland," said the spokeswoman

U.S. scraps missile defense shield plans - CNN.com

Yes, the current polish government justs LUVS this!

Not.

 

[Cold Fusion38]

Tell me just EXACTELY WHY Iran would deliver a nuke from Iran at ANYBODY? If they wanted to nuke somebody it would most surely be done in a more COVERT action. Now if you are talking about a FULL SCALE nuclear war then your Missile Defense shield would be completely ineffectual.


Once again the word is MIRV!

 

[DiveCon]

Tell me just EXACTELY WHY Iran would deliver a nuke from Iran at ANYBODY? If they wanted to nuke somebody it would most surely be done in a more COVERT action. Now if you are talking about a FULL SCALE nuclear war then your Missile Defense shield would be completely ineffectual.


Once again the word is MIRV!

you realize that MIRV is like 40 year old tech, and not difficult to over come, right?

 

[Cold Fusion38]

So we are talking THOUSANDS of missiles with say a DOZEN mirvs per missile. How can you POSSIBLY make a case for a missile defense shield that could defend against that many reentry vehicles?