Oklahoma House Approves Bill Shifting Marriage Licenses from State to Clergy

[Flopper]

This did give me a nice chuckle, and it really highlights the need to actually check out a story rather than just accept a headline.

The bill does not do what the story says. Not even close. All it does is say rather than the government issuing a marriage license, it files a marriage certificate. Just a change in words, not in process. They didn't even change the fee. It gives no authority to any clergy it doesn't already have, i.e. they can perform a wedding and sign the certificate. What is also included in the bill, and not mentioned at all in the story, is the real news. The old law stated anyone of age could get a license to marry someone of the opposite sex. Now it just says anyone can get a certificate to marry. IOW, this bill removes the prohibition against SSM.

For those willing to do the work, it's HB 1125 and you can read it on the Oklahoma Legislature web site. Have fun.

http://webserver1.lsb.state.ok.us/cf_pdf/2015-16 SUPPORT DOCUMENTS/BILLSUM/House/HB1125 CS BILLSUM.PDF

If this bill becomes law, the Church of Scientology, Thee Temple ov Psychick Youth, Nation of Yahweh,Church of All Worlds, the Cosmic People of Light Powers, Nuwaubianism, and dozens of other crackpot religious organizations will be able to issue marriage licenses in Oklahoma to gay and straight couples, children, or any other person or non-person living or dead. In addition to certifying that the couple meets OK marriage requirements, they will also be responsible for seeing that the licenses get recorded.

No. That is not the case. Marriage certificates are filed with the court. Other than removing the prohibition on SSM, the standards of who may get married hasn't changed, nor the process for getting married.

I agree standards are the same but currently the responsibility for seeing that those standards are maintained and the license's are properly recorded lies with county clerks office. If licenses are issued by any religious official in the state, I would think it much harder to see that those standards are maintained.

In addition, I would question the constitutionality of forcing a person to go to a church to get married or settle for a common law marriage.

It remains with the clerk. Nothing has changed except rather than issuing a marriage license they file a marriage certificate. Otherwise, it is the same process. And they are not forced to go to a church. They can still go to a judge or retired judge, just like they could before. They can also file for a common law marriage.

So you're saying that the couple goes to the minister first get's married then takes the marriage certificate to the county office, shows proof of age and id, and registers the certificate. Then I don't see what the point of this law is unless it's just to encourage pre-marriage counseling.

 

[Pop23]

Get the government completely out of the marriage business and problem solved.

Marriage carries legal rights and privlidges.
If you get the state our of marriage, these will go away.

So?

Form a legal Union. Let the politicians figure out how. Make them actually do something.

We have many different types of corporate entities, just make types that fit for domestic partners.

Marriage should be religious, not governmental.

I've been married for 40 years and no priest ever came near my wedding. If you want your marriage to be religious, that is a personal choice. But marriage itself isn't religious. Here is a suggestion. Call your marriage a Divine Joining and then you won't have to have the same word the rest of us use.

Tradition has no place in this discussion

Get with it! What are you 90?

 

[Pop23]

Get the government completely out of the marriage business and problem solved.

Marriage carries legal rights and privlidges.
If you get the state our of marriage, these will go away.

So?
Form a legal Union. Let the politicians figure out how. Make them actually do something.

Distinction w/o a difference.

Bull, you traditionalist just kill me.

One domestic partnership might include two, another three, four and beyond.

 

[guno]

This did give me a nice chuckle, and it really highlights the need to actually check out a story rather than just accept a headline.

The bill does not do what the story says. Not even close. All it does is say rather than the government issuing a marriage license, it files a marriage certificate. Just a change in words, not in process. They didn't even change the fee. It gives no authority to any clergy it doesn't already have, i.e. they can perform a wedding and sign the certificate. What is also included in the bill, and not mentioned at all in the story, is the real news. The old law stated anyone of age could get a license to marry someone of the opposite sex. Now it just says anyone can get a certificate to marry. IOW, this bill removes the prohibition against SSM.

For those willing to do the work, it's HB 1125 and you can read it on the Oklahoma Legislature web site. Have fun.

The article served it's purpose....throw out the bait and the left loons strike every time

have another drink Irish

 

[Syriusly]

The law also seems rather limiting in its definition of acceptable clergy

Could be, but not likely to be applied that way. If the State were to try to say that Muslim Imans, Buddhist Priests, Hindu Priests, etc. could not perform marriages in the state and allowing only Christian and Jewish Clergy to do them - they would have problems in court.

Secondly, there are many Christian Churches that will issue Marriage Certificates to same-sex couples and as a matter of fact the Presbyterian Church is currently voting on allowing (not requiring) for the performance of SS marriages. IIRC the current vote by their organizations is 2:1 in support of allowing them.


Presbytery of East TN approves same-sex marriage amendment


>>>>

Still going to run into issues regarding separation of church and states- if the license is a state recognized license that can only be issued by a religious entity- for non-religious purposes- its going to die a quick death.

 

[Syriusly]

This idea may backfire when the church of LGBT finally applies for tax-exempt status and begins putting their places of worship in every county in the state of Oklahoma..

You are delusional.

 

[Pop23]

This idea may backfire when the church of LGBT finally applies for tax-exempt status and begins putting their places of worship in every county in the state of Oklahoma..

You are delusional.

Lol, that's funny

 

[Flopper]

>

Thinking about this there could be a problem.

1. Oklahoma is recognizing Marriage Certificates issued by a religious organization that is then registered with the County Clerk. Yet other states recognize Marriage Licenses issued under authority of the State government. Since there will be no State Marriage License, doesn't that mean that all Oklahomans that leave the State won't be legally married in other states? (Same-sex and different-sex couples).

2. No Oklahoma will be returning to Common Law Marriage upon submission of a Common Law Marriage affidavit and (IIRC) 49 of 50 States still recognize Common Law Civil Marriages entered into in other States as legall valid.​

Therefore, a different-sex couple who have a Church wedding and get a Religious Marriage Certificate and file it with the clerk will only be Civilly Married in Oklahoma, yet same-sex couple that files a Common Law Marriage affidavit will be still be married outside the State.

>>>>

Religious organizations are not issuing the certificates. All they are doing is performing the ceremony and signing them. No different than they did before. All they did was change the name. A marriage recognized by the state of OK will be recognized by all of the other states - at least to the extent they are now.

According to the bill summary,
"Marriage certificates may be issued by a religious official after a formal ceremony to solemnize the marriage or by a judge."

http://webserver1.lsb.state.ok.us/c...DOCUMENTS/BILLSUM/House/HB1125 CS BILLSUM.PDF

 

[PratchettFan]

This did give me a nice chuckle, and it really highlights the need to actually check out a story rather than just accept a headline.

The bill does not do what the story says. Not even close. All it does is say rather than the government issuing a marriage license, it files a marriage certificate. Just a change in words, not in process. They didn't even change the fee. It gives no authority to any clergy it doesn't already have, i.e. they can perform a wedding and sign the certificate. What is also included in the bill, and not mentioned at all in the story, is the real news. The old law stated anyone of age could get a license to marry someone of the opposite sex. Now it just says anyone can get a certificate to marry. IOW, this bill removes the prohibition against SSM.

For those willing to do the work, it's HB 1125 and you can read it on the Oklahoma Legislature web site. Have fun.

http://webserver1.lsb.state.ok.us/cf_pdf/2015-16 SUPPORT DOCUMENTS/BILLSUM/House/HB1125 CS BILLSUM.PDF

If this bill becomes law, the Church of Scientology, Thee Temple ov Psychick Youth, Nation of Yahweh,Church of All Worlds, the Cosmic People of Light Powers, Nuwaubianism, and dozens of other crackpot religious organizations will be able to issue marriage licenses in Oklahoma to gay and straight couples, children, or any other person or non-person living or dead. In addition to certifying that the couple meets OK marriage requirements, they will also be responsible for seeing that the licenses get recorded.

No. That is not the case. Marriage certificates are filed with the court. Other than removing the prohibition on SSM, the standards of who may get married hasn't changed, nor the process for getting married.

I agree standards are the same but currently the responsibility for seeing that those standards are maintained and the license's are properly recorded lies with county clerks office. If licenses are issued by any religious official in the state, I would think it much harder to see that those standards are maintained.

In addition, I would question the constitutionality of forcing a person to go to a church to get married or settle for a common law marriage.

It remains with the clerk. Nothing has changed except rather than issuing a marriage license they file a marriage certificate. Otherwise, it is the same process. And they are not forced to go to a church. They can still go to a judge or retired judge, just like they could before. They can also file for a common law marriage.

So you're saying that the couple goes to the minister first get's married then takes the marriage certificate to the county office, shows proof of age and id, and registers the certificate. Then I don't see what the point of this law is unless it's just to encourage pre-marriage counseling.

Yep. Which is exactly what they did before. The two primary changes appear to be the filing of common law marriage and the elimination of the requirement the parties be of the opposite sex. I am supposing that is the point. The original bill did eliminate judges doing the ceremony, but that was rejected in committee.

This really is a pro-SSM bill. I can't see how it could be seen as anything else. And the guy who introduced it is a republican. Interesting times, eh?

 

[PratchettFan]

>

Thinking about this there could be a problem.

1. Oklahoma is recognizing Marriage Certificates issued by a religious organization that is then registered with the County Clerk. Yet other states recognize Marriage Licenses issued under authority of the State government. Since there will be no State Marriage License, doesn't that mean that all Oklahomans that leave the State won't be legally married in other states? (Same-sex and different-sex couples).

2. No Oklahoma will be returning to Common Law Marriage upon submission of a Common Law Marriage affidavit and (IIRC) 49 of 50 States still recognize Common Law Civil Marriages entered into in other States as legall valid.​

Therefore, a different-sex couple who have a Church wedding and get a Religious Marriage Certificate and file it with the clerk will only be Civilly Married in Oklahoma, yet same-sex couple that files a Common Law Marriage affidavit will be still be married outside the State.

>>>>

Religious organizations are not issuing the certificates. All they are doing is performing the ceremony and signing them. No different than they did before. All they did was change the name. A marriage recognized by the state of OK will be recognized by all of the other states - at least to the extent they are now.

According to the bill summary,
"Marriage certificates may be issued by a religious official after a formal ceremony to solemnize the marriage or by a judge."

http://webserver1.lsb.state.ok.us/cf_pdf/2015-16 SUPPORT DOCUMENTS/BILLSUM/House/HB1125 CS BILLSUM.PDF

Forget the bill summary. They don't change summaries as the bill goes through the amendment process. You need to read the final version of the bill that was voted on.

http://webserver1.lsb.state.ok.us/cf_pdf/2015-16 FLR/HFLR/HB1125 HFLR.PDF

 

[PratchettFan]

Get the government completely out of the marriage business and problem solved.

Marriage carries legal rights and privlidges.
If you get the state our of marriage, these will go away.

So?

Form a legal Union. Let the politicians figure out how. Make them actually do something.

We have many different types of corporate entities, just make types that fit for domestic partners.

Marriage should be religious, not governmental.

I've been married for 40 years and no priest ever came near my wedding. If you want your marriage to be religious, that is a personal choice. But marriage itself isn't religious. Here is a suggestion. Call your marriage a Divine Joining and then you won't have to have the same word the rest of us use.

Tradition has no place in this discussion

Get with it! What are you 90?

You insist a legal contract is religious but I'm a traditionalist?

 

[Pop23]

Get the government completely out of the marriage business and problem solved.

Marriage carries legal rights and privlidges.
If you get the state our of marriage, these will go away.

So?

Form a legal Union. Let the politicians figure out how. Make them actually do something.

We have many different types of corporate entities, just make types that fit for domestic partners.

Marriage should be religious, not governmental.

I've been married for 40 years and no priest ever came near my wedding. If you want your marriage to be religious, that is a personal choice. But marriage itself isn't religious. Here is a suggestion. Call your marriage a Divine Joining and then you won't have to have the same word the rest of us use.

Tradition has no place in this discussion

Get with it! What are you 90?

You insist a legal contract is religious but I'm a traditionalist?

Exactly where did I want a legal contract as religious?

Marriage should be a religious matter only. The legal contract, if wished by adults should be separate. Like any other partnership between as many adults as wish to be a party within.

This, my friend is OUR brave new world.

Traditions be damned.

I'm sure that's what the Lovings would have wanted as the result of their lawsuit v. Virginia.

 

[Flopper]

>

Thinking about this there could be a problem.

1. Oklahoma is recognizing Marriage Certificates issued by a religious organization that is then registered with the County Clerk. Yet other states recognize Marriage Licenses issued under authority of the State government. Since there will be no State Marriage License, doesn't that mean that all Oklahomans that leave the State won't be legally married in other states? (Same-sex and different-sex couples).

2. No Oklahoma will be returning to Common Law Marriage upon submission of a Common Law Marriage affidavit and (IIRC) 49 of 50 States still recognize Common Law Civil Marriages entered into in other States as legall valid.​

Therefore, a different-sex couple who have a Church wedding and get a Religious Marriage Certificate and file it with the clerk will only be Civilly Married in Oklahoma, yet same-sex couple that files a Common Law Marriage affidavit will be still be married outside the State.

>>>>

Religious organizations are not issuing the certificates. All they are doing is performing the ceremony and signing them. No different than they did before. All they did was change the name. A marriage recognized by the state of OK will be recognized by all of the other states - at least to the extent they are now.

According to the bill summary,
"Marriage certificates may be issued by a religious official after a formal ceremony to solemnize the marriage or by a judge."

http://webserver1.lsb.state.ok.us/cf_pdf/2015-16 SUPPORT DOCUMENTS/BILLSUM/House/HB1125 CS BILLSUM.PDF

Forget the bill summary. They don't change summaries as the bill goes through the amendment process. You need to read the final version of the bill that was voted on.

http://webserver1.lsb.state.ok.us/cf_pdf/2015-16 FLR/HFLR/HB1125 HFLR.PDF

I didn't see anything in link that addresses who issues the certificate.

 

[PratchettFan]

Marriage carries legal rights and privlidges.
If you get the state our of marriage, these will go away.

So?

Form a legal Union. Let the politicians figure out how. Make them actually do something.

We have many different types of corporate entities, just make types that fit for domestic partners.

Marriage should be religious, not governmental.

I've been married for 40 years and no priest ever came near my wedding. If you want your marriage to be religious, that is a personal choice. But marriage itself isn't religious. Here is a suggestion. Call your marriage a Divine Joining and then you won't have to have the same word the rest of us use.

Tradition has no place in this discussion

Get with it! What are you 90?

You insist a legal contract is religious but I'm a traditionalist?

Exactly where did I want a legal contract as religious?

Marriage should be a religious matter only. The legal contract, if wished by adults should be separate. Like any other partnership between as many adults as wish to be a party within.

This, my friend is OUR brave new world.

Traditions be damned.

I'm sure that's what the Lovings would have wanted as the result of their lawsuit v. Virginia.

Marriage is a legal contract.

 

[PratchettFan]

>

Thinking about this there could be a problem.

1. Oklahoma is recognizing Marriage Certificates issued by a religious organization that is then registered with the County Clerk. Yet other states recognize Marriage Licenses issued under authority of the State government. Since there will be no State Marriage License, doesn't that mean that all Oklahomans that leave the State won't be legally married in other states? (Same-sex and different-sex couples).

2. No Oklahoma will be returning to Common Law Marriage upon submission of a Common Law Marriage affidavit and (IIRC) 49 of 50 States still recognize Common Law Civil Marriages entered into in other States as legall valid.​

Therefore, a different-sex couple who have a Church wedding and get a Religious Marriage Certificate and file it with the clerk will only be Civilly Married in Oklahoma, yet same-sex couple that files a Common Law Marriage affidavit will be still be married outside the State.

>>>>

Religious organizations are not issuing the certificates. All they are doing is performing the ceremony and signing them. No different than they did before. All they did was change the name. A marriage recognized by the state of OK will be recognized by all of the other states - at least to the extent they are now.

According to the bill summary,
"Marriage certificates may be issued by a religious official after a formal ceremony to solemnize the marriage or by a judge."

http://webserver1.lsb.state.ok.us/cf_pdf/2015-16 SUPPORT DOCUMENTS/BILLSUM/House/HB1125 CS BILLSUM.PDF

Forget the bill summary. They don't change summaries as the bill goes through the amendment process. You need to read the final version of the bill that was voted on.

http://webserver1.lsb.state.ok.us/cf_pdf/2015-16 FLR/HFLR/HB1125 HFLR.PDF

I didn't see anything in link that addresses who issues the certificate.

They just changed the term from issue to file. I'm not familiar with the process in OK, but I expect the people who do weddings have a stack of forms. Who hands you a form really doesn't matter. You go through the ceremony and the person marrying you signs the form and then sends it to the clerk. That's how I'm reading it. I wouldn't be surprised if different counties had different procedures. Whatever the current process might be, there is nothing in the bill which indicates that actual process has been changed. Just the terminology.

I expect the original idea was to create the common law marriage process and then make the standard marriage process entirely religious - which is why the judge and retired judges were deleted in the original text. That way there would be SSM marriage but it would throw a bone to those who didn't want it to be the same as "real" marriage. That didn't survive the committee process, because it would clearly be unconstitutional.

 

[kwc57]

Could you imagine the Hell our lives would be without government to protect us from crazy dangerous right wingers?

Oklahoma GOP candidate Stoning gays the right thing to do MSNBC

Lawyer In California Proposes Killing Gays With Sodomite Suppression Act

We can always rely on rderp to turn to a source like MSNBC for his talking points. Yes, Scott Esk ran on the Republican ticket. He's from my crimson red district and knocked on my door and we talked when he was running last year. He doesn't really self identify as a Republican as he calls himself a constitutionalist. I can tell you that I have a friend in the upper leadership of the Oklahoma Libertarian Party and they certainly won't claim him. First, he's a loon and second, as such he was defeated. No one wanted him representing him. So thanks for digging for some old article from last year to try and use to paint all Oklahomans, but it just makes you look like his reverse. But then everyone here knows rderp is a loon, so........

 

[Nosmo King]

Get the government completely out of the marriage business and problem solved.

Justice of the Peace? Registrar at City Hall? Las Vegas wedding chapel? Are marriages conducted in these venues valid?

Churches sanctify marriage, the marriage license makes marriages legally binding contracts. Do you really want only churches establishing legally binding contracts?

 

[Where_r_my_Keys]

There is more than one way to skin a cat.

On Tuesday, the Oklahoma state House approved legislation that transfers the issuance of marriage licenses from the state to clergy members.

Oklahoma House Approves Bill Shifting Marriage Licenses from State to Clergy - Breitbart

LOL! BRILLIANT!

I hope they dealt the Presbyterians out... they've gone customarily wobbly.

 

[Where_r_my_Keys]

Could you imagine the Hell our lives would be without government to protect us from crazy dangerous right wingers?

Oklahoma GOP candidate Stoning gays the right thing to do MSNBC

Lawyer In California Proposes Killing Gays With Sodomite Suppression Act

Can you imagine the hell that wouldn't be YOU, if you simply didn't respond to your deviant cognition which drives you toward sexual gratification with people of your own gender?

You may not have a choice with regard to your urges... (I disagree that such is the case, but for the sake of argument, I'll lend to that assumption.) But your BEHAVIOR is, IRREFUTABLY a function of THE CHOICE: YOU WILLFULLY MAKE!

 

[Pop23]

So?

Form a legal Union. Let the politicians figure out how. Make them actually do something.

We have many different types of corporate entities, just make types that fit for domestic partners.

Marriage should be religious, not governmental.

I've been married for 40 years and no priest ever came near my wedding. If you want your marriage to be religious, that is a personal choice. But marriage itself isn't religious. Here is a suggestion. Call your marriage a Divine Joining and then you won't have to have the same word the rest of us use.

Tradition has no place in this discussion

Get with it! What are you 90?

You insist a legal contract is religious but I'm a traditionalist?

Exactly where did I want a legal contract as religious?

Marriage should be a religious matter only. The legal contract, if wished by adults should be separate. Like any other partnership between as many adults as wish to be a party within.

This, my friend is OUR brave new world.

Traditions be damned.

I'm sure that's what the Lovings would have wanted as the result of their lawsuit v. Virginia.

Marriage is a legal contract.

Never said i

Get the government completely out of the marriage business and problem solved.

Justice of the Peace? Registrar at City Hall? Las Vegas wedding chapel? Are marriages conducted in these venues valid?

Churches sanctify marriage, the marriage license makes marriages legally binding contracts. Do you really want only churches establishing legally binding contracts?

Good god, where did you get that?

If a couple wants to be joined by God they can get a church wedding

If a couple, a trio, a foursome or eighty six folks want to legally bind themselves together, let them form a domestic partnership applied for and granted by a governmental agency.

Is that really that tough to understand?