Oklahoma House Approves Bill Shifting Marriage Licenses from State to Clergy

[kwc57]

Who defines clergy?

Exactly. If I lived in Oklahoma I'd start the Church of Whatever the day after this bill became law and charge a couple hundred a pop for a marriage license from couples. That would be a great side job and the easiest ever. Maybe I'd just become an ordained priest of Dudeism. Dudeism - Ordination by the Religion of The Big Lebowski

If I practice my religion at home, does that mean I qualify for tax free status and can stop paying my home owner taxes?

Don't know why not. Al Sharpton doesn't bother with paying taxes and he never gets audited and is a frequent and trusted adviser to Dear Ruler. Go for it.

 

[kwc57]

Who defines clergy?

Exactly. If I lived in Oklahoma I'd start the Church of Whatever the day after this bill became law and charge a couple hundred a pop for a marriage license from couples. That would be a great side job and the easiest ever. Maybe I'd just become an ordained priest of Dudeism. Dudeism - Ordination by the Religion of The Big Lebowski

It's doable. I have a liberal friend who got his mail order document making him a minister of some made up religion who got it specifically for this reason. I guess he was progressive because he did this before this bill was even a thought, but he's excited now at the prospect of doing business with the LGBT community.

 

[ogibillm]

The law also seems rather limiting in its definition of acceptable clergy

Could be, but not likely to be applied that way. If the State were to try to say that Muslim Imans, Buddhist Priests, Hindu Priests, etc. could not perform marriages in the state and allowing only Christian and Jewish Clergy to do them - they would have problems in court.

Secondly, there are many Christian Churches that will issue Marriage Certificates to same-sex couples and as a matter of fact the Presbyterian Church is currently voting on allowing (not requiring) for the performance of SS marriages. IIRC the current vote by their organizations is 2:1 in support of allowing them.


Presbytery of East TN approves same-sex marriage amendment


>>>>

it's Oklahoma. Do you really think they are okay with muslims in any capacity?
Anti-Islamic Protesters Shout at Muslims at Oklahoma Capitol - ABC News
Rep. John Bennett stands behind threat of Islam statements at Sallisaw Republican meeting - Religion - TulsaWorld

 

[PratchettFan]

You can still have a marriage certificate without clergy. You use a judge or justice of the peace, just as you can now. Really, how the state handles it hasn't changed at all. Just the removal of the SSM prohibition and a change of words.

Not under this law.

Marriage Certificates would only be accepted when performed by clergy. Common Law Marriages would be registered under an affidavit. Judges and Justices of the Peace wouldn't be performing Civil Marriages anymore.


>>>>

I don't think so....

Section 7. A. All Except as provided in subsection E of this section marriages must be contracted by a formal ceremony performed or solemnized in the presence of at least two adult, competent persons as witnesses, by a judge or retired judge of any court in this state, or an ordained or authorized preacher or minister of the Gospel, priest or other ecclesiastical dignitary of any denomination who has been duly ordained or authorized by the church to which he or she belongs to preach the Gospel, or a rabbi and who is at least eighteen (18) years of age.


There is no change in the law in this area.

That's not what the bill says.

1. Underline = Insertion of new text
2. Strikethrough = Deletion of old text
​

Here is what it says:

Section 7. A. All Except as provided in subsection E of this section marriages must be contracted by a formal ceremony performed or solemnized in the presence of at least two adult, competent persons as witnesses, by a judge or retired judge of any court in this state, or an ordained or authorized preacher or minister of the Gospel, priest or other ecclesiastical dignitary of any denomination who has been duly ordained or authorized by the church to which he or she belongs to preach the Gospel, or a rabbi and who is at least eighteen (18) years of age.​

"All" and "by a judge or retired judge of any court in this state" being strikethroughs signifies the text jis being deleted. "Except as provided in subsection E of this section" being underlined signifies it is new text.


>>>>

No. You are reading the bill as it was introduced. The deletion was removed in committee and it is not in the final version which was voted on the floor of the House.

 

[WorldWatcher]

You can still have a marriage certificate without clergy. You use a judge or justice of the peace, just as you can now. Really, how the state handles it hasn't changed at all. Just the removal of the SSM prohibition and a change of words.

Not under this law.

Marriage Certificates would only be accepted when performed by clergy. Common Law Marriages would be registered under an affidavit. Judges and Justices of the Peace wouldn't be performing Civil Marriages anymore.


>>>>

I don't think so....

Section 7. A. All Except as provided in subsection E of this section marriages must be contracted by a formal ceremony performed or solemnized in the presence of at least two adult, competent persons as witnesses, by a judge or retired judge of any court in this state, or an ordained or authorized preacher or minister of the Gospel, priest or other ecclesiastical dignitary of any denomination who has been duly ordained or authorized by the church to which he or she belongs to preach the Gospel, or a rabbi and who is at least eighteen (18) years of age.


There is no change in the law in this area.

That's not what the bill says.

1. Underline = Insertion of new text
2. Strikethrough = Deletion of old text
​

Here is what it says:

Section 7. A. All Except as provided in subsection E of this section marriages must be contracted by a formal ceremony performed or solemnized in the presence of at least two adult, competent persons as witnesses, by a judge or retired judge of any court in this state, or an ordained or authorized preacher or minister of the Gospel, priest or other ecclesiastical dignitary of any denomination who has been duly ordained or authorized by the church to which he or she belongs to preach the Gospel, or a rabbi and who is at least eighteen (18) years of age.​

"All" and "by a judge or retired judge of any court in this state" being strikethroughs signifies the text jis being deleted. "Except as provided in subsection E of this section" being underlined signifies it is new text.


>>>>

No. You are reading the bill as it was introduced. The deletion was removed in committee and it is not in the final version which was voted on the floor of the House.

You are correct, I was looking at a previous version.

Here is the voted on version -->> http://webserver1.lsb.state.ok.us/cf_pdf/2015-16 FLR/HFLR/HB1125 HFLR.PDF


Thanks


>>>>

 

[Flopper]

My concern is that people without any faith will be unable to marry in the state. This will do nothing to stop gays from getting married in Oklahoma though b/c quite a few churches already marry gays. If this bill passes and is signed by Governor Fallin it will most assuredly be challenged in the instant her signature hits the page.

This is a stupid bill. Although aimed at stopping gay marriage, it actually makes it legal because the bill removes from the statute language limiting marriage to one man and one woman.

A gay couple need only visit a local Presbyterian (USA) church, secular Jewish synagogue, or Episcopalian church to get a licences. Furthermore anyone that claims to be a religious official will be able to issue licenses.

 

[Flopper]

This did give me a nice chuckle, and it really highlights the need to actually check out a story rather than just accept a headline.

The bill does not do what the story says. Not even close. All it does is say rather than the government issuing a marriage license, it files a marriage certificate. Just a change in words, not in process. They didn't even change the fee. It gives no authority to any clergy it doesn't already have, i.e. they can perform a wedding and sign the certificate. What is also included in the bill, and not mentioned at all in the story, is the real news. The old law stated anyone of age could get a license to marry someone of the opposite sex. Now it just says anyone can get a certificate to marry. IOW, this bill removes the prohibition against SSM.

For those willing to do the work, it's HB 1125 and you can read it on the Oklahoma Legislature web site. Have fun.

http://webserver1.lsb.state.ok.us/c...DOCUMENTS/BILLSUM/House/HB1125 CS BILLSUM.PDF

If this bill becomes law, the Church of Scientology, Thee Temple ov Psychick Youth, Nation of Yahweh,Church of All Worlds, the Cosmic People of Light Powers, Nuwaubianism, and dozens of other crackpot religious organizations will be able to issue marriage licenses in Oklahoma to gay and straight couples, children, or any other person or non-person living or dead. In addition to certifying that the couple meets OK marriage requirements, they will also be responsible for seeing that the licenses get recorded.

 

[PratchettFan]

You can still have a marriage certificate without clergy. You use a judge or justice of the peace, just as you can now. Really, how the state handles it hasn't changed at all. Just the removal of the SSM prohibition and a change of words.

Not under this law.

Marriage Certificates would only be accepted when performed by clergy. Common Law Marriages would be registered under an affidavit. Judges and Justices of the Peace wouldn't be performing Civil Marriages anymore.


>>>>

I don't think so....

Section 7. A. All Except as provided in subsection E of this section marriages must be contracted by a formal ceremony performed or solemnized in the presence of at least two adult, competent persons as witnesses, by a judge or retired judge of any court in this state, or an ordained or authorized preacher or minister of the Gospel, priest or other ecclesiastical dignitary of any denomination who has been duly ordained or authorized by the church to which he or she belongs to preach the Gospel, or a rabbi and who is at least eighteen (18) years of age.


There is no change in the law in this area.

That's not what the bill says.

1. Underline = Insertion of new text
2. Strikethrough = Deletion of old text
​

Here is what it says:

Section 7. A. All Except as provided in subsection E of this section marriages must be contracted by a formal ceremony performed or solemnized in the presence of at least two adult, competent persons as witnesses, by a judge or retired judge of any court in this state, or an ordained or authorized preacher or minister of the Gospel, priest or other ecclesiastical dignitary of any denomination who has been duly ordained or authorized by the church to which he or she belongs to preach the Gospel, or a rabbi and who is at least eighteen (18) years of age.​

"All" and "by a judge or retired judge of any court in this state" being strikethroughs signifies the text jis being deleted. "Except as provided in subsection E of this section" being underlined signifies it is new text.


>>>>

No. You are reading the bill as it was introduced. The deletion was removed in committee and it is not in the final version which was voted on the floor of the House.

You are correct, I was looking at a previous version.

Here is the voted on version -->> http://webserver1.lsb.state.ok.us/cf_pdf/2015-16 FLR/HFLR/HB1125 HFLR.PDF


Thanks


>>>>

De nada. It is a pleasure to talk with someone who checks things for themselves.

 

[PratchettFan]

This did give me a nice chuckle, and it really highlights the need to actually check out a story rather than just accept a headline.

The bill does not do what the story says. Not even close. All it does is say rather than the government issuing a marriage license, it files a marriage certificate. Just a change in words, not in process. They didn't even change the fee. It gives no authority to any clergy it doesn't already have, i.e. they can perform a wedding and sign the certificate. What is also included in the bill, and not mentioned at all in the story, is the real news. The old law stated anyone of age could get a license to marry someone of the opposite sex. Now it just says anyone can get a certificate to marry. IOW, this bill removes the prohibition against SSM.

For those willing to do the work, it's HB 1125 and you can read it on the Oklahoma Legislature web site. Have fun.

http://webserver1.lsb.state.ok.us/cf_pdf/2015-16 SUPPORT DOCUMENTS/BILLSUM/House/HB1125 CS BILLSUM.PDF

If this bill becomes law, the Church of Scientology, Thee Temple ov Psychick Youth, Nation of Yahweh,Church of All Worlds, the Cosmic People of Light Powers, Nuwaubianism, and dozens of other crackpot religious organizations will be able to issue marriage licenses in Oklahoma to gay and straight couples, children, or any other person or non-person living or dead. In addition to certifying that the couple meets OK marriage requirements, they will also be responsible for seeing that the licenses get recorded.

No. That is not the case. Marriage certificates are filed with the court. Other than removing the prohibition on SSM, the standards of who may get married hasn't changed, nor the process for getting married.

 

[kwc57]

My concern is that people without any faith will be unable to marry in the state. This will do nothing to stop gays from getting married in Oklahoma though b/c quite a few churches already marry gays. If this bill passes and is signed by Governor Fallin it will most assuredly be challenged in the instant her signature hits the page.

This is a stupid bill. Although aimed at stopping gay marriage, it actually makes it legal because the bill removes from the statute language limiting marriage to one man and one woman.

A gay couple need only visit a local Presbyterian (USA) church, secular Jewish synagogue, or Episcopalian church to get a licences. Furthermore anyone that claims to be a religious official will be able to issue licenses.

Quit reading your propaganda sites to get talking points. They are not presenting all the facts. It isn't designed to stop gays from getting married. For your edification.

http://reason.com/blog/2015/03/11/oklahoma-bill-would-legalize-gay-marriag

 

[kwc57]

The law also seems rather limiting in its definition of acceptable clergy

Could be, but not likely to be applied that way. If the State were to try to say that Muslim Imans, Buddhist Priests, Hindu Priests, etc. could not perform marriages in the state and allowing only Christian and Jewish Clergy to do them - they would have problems in court.

Secondly, there are many Christian Churches that will issue Marriage Certificates to same-sex couples and as a matter of fact the Presbyterian Church is currently voting on allowing (not requiring) for the performance of SS marriages. IIRC the current vote by their organizations is 2:1 in support of allowing them.


Presbytery of East TN approves same-sex marriage amendment


>>>>

it's Oklahoma. Do you really think they are okay with muslims in any capacity?
Anti-Islamic Protesters Shout at Muslims at Oklahoma Capitol - ABC News
Rep. John Bennett stands behind threat of Islam statements at Sallisaw Republican meeting - Religion - TulsaWorld

Well yeah.......yeah we do. Ever lived here? I didn't think so.

Oklahoma Libertarians Support Muslims Confronted by Anti-Islam Tea Party Groups The Liberty Beat

 

[Flopper]

This did give me a nice chuckle, and it really highlights the need to actually check out a story rather than just accept a headline.

The bill does not do what the story says. Not even close. All it does is say rather than the government issuing a marriage license, it files a marriage certificate. Just a change in words, not in process. They didn't even change the fee. It gives no authority to any clergy it doesn't already have, i.e. they can perform a wedding and sign the certificate. What is also included in the bill, and not mentioned at all in the story, is the real news. The old law stated anyone of age could get a license to marry someone of the opposite sex. Now it just says anyone can get a certificate to marry. IOW, this bill removes the prohibition against SSM.

For those willing to do the work, it's HB 1125 and you can read it on the Oklahoma Legislature web site. Have fun.

http://webserver1.lsb.state.ok.us/cf_pdf/2015-16 SUPPORT DOCUMENTS/BILLSUM/House/HB1125 CS BILLSUM.PDF

If this bill becomes law, the Church of Scientology, Thee Temple ov Psychick Youth, Nation of Yahweh,Church of All Worlds, the Cosmic People of Light Powers, Nuwaubianism, and dozens of other crackpot religious organizations will be able to issue marriage licenses in Oklahoma to gay and straight couples, children, or any other person or non-person living or dead. In addition to certifying that the couple meets OK marriage requirements, they will also be responsible for seeing that the licenses get recorded.

No. That is not the case. Marriage certificates are filed with the court. Other than removing the prohibition on SSM, the standards of who may get married hasn't changed, nor the process for getting married.

I agree standards are the same but currently the responsibility for seeing that those standards are maintained and the license's are properly recorded lies with county clerks office. If licenses are issued by any religious official in the state, I would think it much harder to see that those standards are maintained.

In addition, I would question the constitutionality of forcing a person to go to a church to get married or settle for a common law marriage.

 

[Silhouette]

This idea may backfire when the church of LGBT finally applies for tax-exempt status and begins putting their places of worship in every county in the state of Oklahoma..

 

[WorldWatcher]

>

Thinking about this there could be a problem.

1. Oklahoma is recognizing Marriage Certificates issued by a religious organization that is then registered with the County Clerk. Yet other states recognize Marriage Licenses issued under authority of the State government. Since there will be no State Marriage License, doesn't that mean that all Oklahomans that leave the State won't be legally married in other states? (Same-sex and different-sex couples).

2. No Oklahoma will be returning to Common Law Marriage upon submission of a Common Law Marriage affidavit and (IIRC) 49 of 50 States still recognize Common Law Civil Marriages entered into in other States as legall valid.​

Therefore, a different-sex couple who have a Church wedding and get a Religious Marriage Certificate and file it with the clerk will only be Civilly Married in Oklahoma, yet same-sex couple that files a Common Law Marriage affidavit will be still be married outside the State.

>>>>

 

[RoshawnMarkwees]

If it prevents the creation of more unstructured families go for it. The greater good will be served and the society will be protected even if they don't know it.

 

[WorldWatcher]

If it prevents the creation of more unstructured families go for it. The greater good will be served and the society will be protected even if they don't know it.

Doesn't do that though.

Same-sex couples from getting married can get a religious Marriage Certificate and file it with the court or they can file an affidavit of Common Law Marriage.


>>>>

 

[Flopper]

My concern is that people without any faith will be unable to marry in the state. This will do nothing to stop gays from getting married in Oklahoma though b/c quite a few churches already marry gays. If this bill passes and is signed by Governor Fallin it will most assuredly be challenged in the instant her signature hits the page.

This is a stupid bill. Although aimed at stopping gay marriage, it actually makes it legal because the bill removes from the statute language limiting marriage to one man and one woman.

A gay couple need only visit a local Presbyterian (USA) church, secular Jewish synagogue, or Episcopalian church to get a licences. Furthermore anyone that claims to be a religious official will be able to issue licenses.

Quit reading your propaganda sites to get talking points. They are not presenting all the facts. It isn't designed to stop gays from getting married. For your edification.

http://reason.com/blog/2015/03/11/oklahoma-bill-would-legalize-gay-marriag

Well, it certainly won't stop gay marriage because the bill effectively bypasses the definition of marriage as being between a man and a woman.

 

[PratchettFan]

This did give me a nice chuckle, and it really highlights the need to actually check out a story rather than just accept a headline.

The bill does not do what the story says. Not even close. All it does is say rather than the government issuing a marriage license, it files a marriage certificate. Just a change in words, not in process. They didn't even change the fee. It gives no authority to any clergy it doesn't already have, i.e. they can perform a wedding and sign the certificate. What is also included in the bill, and not mentioned at all in the story, is the real news. The old law stated anyone of age could get a license to marry someone of the opposite sex. Now it just says anyone can get a certificate to marry. IOW, this bill removes the prohibition against SSM.

For those willing to do the work, it's HB 1125 and you can read it on the Oklahoma Legislature web site. Have fun.

http://webserver1.lsb.state.ok.us/cf_pdf/2015-16 SUPPORT DOCUMENTS/BILLSUM/House/HB1125 CS BILLSUM.PDF

If this bill becomes law, the Church of Scientology, Thee Temple ov Psychick Youth, Nation of Yahweh,Church of All Worlds, the Cosmic People of Light Powers, Nuwaubianism, and dozens of other crackpot religious organizations will be able to issue marriage licenses in Oklahoma to gay and straight couples, children, or any other person or non-person living or dead. In addition to certifying that the couple meets OK marriage requirements, they will also be responsible for seeing that the licenses get recorded.

No. That is not the case. Marriage certificates are filed with the court. Other than removing the prohibition on SSM, the standards of who may get married hasn't changed, nor the process for getting married.

I agree standards are the same but currently the responsibility for seeing that those standards are maintained and the license's are properly recorded lies with county clerks office. If licenses are issued by any religious official in the state, I would think it much harder to see that those standards are maintained.

In addition, I would question the constitutionality of forcing a person to go to a church to get married or settle for a common law marriage.

It remains with the clerk. Nothing has changed except rather than issuing a marriage license they file a marriage certificate. Otherwise, it is the same process. And they are not forced to go to a church. They can still go to a judge or retired judge, just like they could before. They can also file for a common law marriage.

 

[PratchettFan]

>

Thinking about this there could be a problem.

1. Oklahoma is recognizing Marriage Certificates issued by a religious organization that is then registered with the County Clerk. Yet other states recognize Marriage Licenses issued under authority of the State government. Since there will be no State Marriage License, doesn't that mean that all Oklahomans that leave the State won't be legally married in other states? (Same-sex and different-sex couples).

2. No Oklahoma will be returning to Common Law Marriage upon submission of a Common Law Marriage affidavit and (IIRC) 49 of 50 States still recognize Common Law Civil Marriages entered into in other States as legall valid.​

Therefore, a different-sex couple who have a Church wedding and get a Religious Marriage Certificate and file it with the clerk will only be Civilly Married in Oklahoma, yet same-sex couple that files a Common Law Marriage affidavit will be still be married outside the State.

>>>>

Religious organizations are not issuing the certificates. All they are doing is performing the ceremony and signing them. No different than they did before. All they did was change the name. A marriage recognized by the state of OK will be recognized by all of the other states - at least to the extent they are now.

 

[rdean]

Could you imagine the Hell our lives would be without government to protect us from crazy dangerous right wingers?

Oklahoma GOP candidate Stoning gays the right thing to do MSNBC

Lawyer In California Proposes Killing Gays With Sodomite Suppression Act