Oklahoma Will Charge Those Who Install Their Own Solar Panels

[dblack]

I thought the GOP hated gubmint intervention into private lives and property?
I'm so confused!

Only when they're not running it, silly!

 

[CaféAuLait]

That's total BULLSHIT.

When a person places alternate devices on his/her house, everything is included and installed by the solar/wind company. The ONLY thing the utility does is connect to the grid (which is the utilities requirement) which costs you $125.00 for 5 minutes work. I've been there, bought it, had it installed, and am reaping the benefits.

This is nothing more than Oklahoma Republicans fucking the little guy.

Who pays for the upkeep of the grid?

The power lines, the utility poles? Is it unreasonable to charge for the use of the infrastructure when the meter is being rolled back?

I pay a Heavy Vehicle Use tax to the Federal Government annually to use the federal highway system for commerce, and I pay states by the mile to use their roads.

Why should selling power be any different?

International Fuel Tax Agreement - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Form 2290, Heavy Highway Vehicle Use Tax Return

I still pay the $14.99 per month like everyone does to partially maintain the grid. I also pay a meter use fee. So do folks in Oklahoma. What the State of Oklahoma is doing is legislating additional profit for the utilities. So there you go.

You said you "pay it like everyone else does". Does your additional equipment upkeep or issuance of credits designate extra employee to determine your refund or credit for the energy sold back? Does the company need to maintain additional components for the green energy? If the answer is 'yes' to any of those question, then all those people not able to afford green energy are paying for your additional equipment upkeep and the time it takes to cut the check for credits for your energy sold back. Why is that fair?

 

[Quantum Windbag]

From the OP article:

"As the use of solar power skyrockets across the U.S., fights have sprung up in several states over how much customers should be compensated for excess power produced by their solar panels and sold back to the grid — a policy known as net metering. Net metering laws have come under fire from the secretive American Legislative Exchange Council (ALEC), a group backed by fossil fuel corporations, utility companies, and the ultra-conservative Koch brothers. Forty-three states and the District of Columbia currently have net metering policies in place and ALEC has set its sights on repealing them, referring to homeowners with their own solar panels as “freeriders on the system.” ALEC presented Gov. Fallin the Thomas Jefferson Freedom award last year for her “record of advancing the fundamental Jeffersonian principles of free markets, limited government, federalism and individual liberty as a nationally recognized leader.”

Anyone catch that? Homeowners who don't use Big Energy suppliers are freeriders because they produce their own energy! Maybe if the homeowners just gave their excess energy back to the grid, everyone (ALEC) would be happy?

Free rider is an economic term, idiot.

In economics, collective bargaining, psychology, and political science, "free riders" are those who consume more than their fair share of a public resource, or shoulder less than a fair share of the costs of its production. Free riding is usually considered to be an economic "problem" only when it leads to the non-production or under-production of a public good (and thus to Pareto inefficiency), or when it leads to the excessive use of a common property resource. The free rider problem is the question of how to limit free riding (or its negative effects) in these situations.

The name "free rider" comes from a common textbook example: someone using public transportation without paying the fare. If too many people do this, the system will not have enough money to operate.

https://www.princeton.edu/~achaney/tmve/wiki100k/docs/Free_rider_problem.html

If you want to be treated like an adult you should stop acting like a child.

 

[Quantum Windbag]

That's total BULLSHIT.

When a person places alternate devices on his/her house, everything is included and installed by the solar/wind company. The ONLY thing the utility does is connect to the grid (which is the utilities requirement) which costs you $125.00 for 5 minutes work. I've been there, bought it, had it installed, and am reaping the benefits.

This is nothing more than Oklahoma Republicans fucking the little guy.

Who pays the additional cost their employees have to figure for the credit and or check sent for the energy sent back?

Does the owner of the green energy have to pay for utility to replace the components
which connect it to the grid, after the initial 125 dollar investment?

Why should someone who can't afford green energy have to pay those fees for additional work of cutting checks or issuing credits or the maintenance of wires or components which benefit you?

So the power companies don't profit off the excess energy sold back to them?

The law requires them to pay the exact same price they sell the energy for. Even an idiot who can't do math should be able to figure out that if you buy something and sell it at the same price you do not make a profit.

 

[Quantum Windbag]

I still pay the $14.99 per month like everyone does to partially maintain the grid. I also pay a meter use fee. So do folks in Oklahoma. What the State of Oklahoma is doing is legislating additional profit for the utilities. So there you go.

I'll be interested to see how this plays out...if the surcharge is 5 bucks a month like Arizona, I don't see the harm...if it's $50 a month, this law will need to be revisited.

A surcharge for what? The energy providers profit? It's called getting screwed.

If you don't like it disconnect from the grid.

 

[Quantum Windbag]

Who pays the additional cost their employees have to figure for the credit and or check sent for the energy sent back?

Does the owner of the green energy have to pay for utility to replace the components
which connect it to the grid, after the initial 125 dollar investment?

Why should someone who can't afford green energy have to pay those fees for additional work of cutting checks or issuing credits or the maintenance of wires or components which benefit you?

So the power companies don't profit off the excess energy sold back to them?

If they BUY it from you, then I assume they are paying market price or close to it, yes?

Facts are not something kiwi understands.

 

[OnePercenter]

I'll be interested to see how this plays out...if the surcharge is 5 bucks a month like Arizona, I don't see the harm...if it's $50 a month, this law will need to be revisited.

A surcharge for what? The energy providers profit? It's called getting screwed.

As much as I hate using Wikipedia as a source, this is what they say...

"Integration with the grid

For reasons of reliability, distributed generation resources (individual solar/wind power*) would be interconnected to the same transmission grid as central stations. Various technical and economic issues occur in the integration of these resources into a grid. Technical problems arise in the areas of power quality, voltage stability, harmonics, reliability, protection, and control.[25] Behavior of protective devices on the grid must be examined for all combinations of distributed and central station generation.[26] A large scale deployment of distributed generation may affect grid-wide functions such as frequency control and allocation of reserves.[27] As a result smart grid functions, virtual power plants and grid energy storage such as power to gas stations are added to the grid."

(*) Added by me.


If the central provider must add protections and new equipment to adapt the distributed generation to the grid, it is not unreasonable to require the distributed generators to cover that cost instead of passing it on to other customers.

You guys are saps. ALL solar generation runs through inverters which eliminate noise and power fluctuations. The additional monies that Oklahoma now requires is to make up for lost profit.

 

[OnePercenter]

"The measure directs utilities to recover the costs of providing electrical infrastructure to homes or businesses with solar panels or small wind turbines, The Oklahoman reported (Solar advocates worry about Oklahoma legislation for surcharge | News OK ) Saturday. The costs would be determined through a rate tariff filed with the Oklahoma Corporation Commission."

Oklahoma solar, wind energy users worry about legislation that would add fee to utility bill - Seymour Tribune

That's total BULLSHIT.

When a person places alternate devices on his/her house, everything is included and installed by the solar/wind company. The ONLY thing the utility does is connect to the grid (which is the utilities requirement) which costs you $125.00 for 5 minutes work. I've been there, bought it, had it installed, and am reaping the benefits.

This is nothing more than Oklahoma Republicans fucking the little guy.

Want to explain how poor people subsidizing rich assholes, like you, who insist on getting paid by the utility company for fucking up the grid, is Republicans fucking over the little guy?

The poor, and to a greater extent the middle class subsidizing the rich has always been a Republican objective. Congrats! Your voting history has fucked you!

btw; the vast majority of home solar power generation is owned by middle class folks, and no matter what Republicans state, it doesn't fuck up the grid.

 

[OnePercenter]

Who pays for the upkeep of the grid?

The power lines, the utility poles? Is it unreasonable to charge for the use of the infrastructure when the meter is being rolled back?

I pay a Heavy Vehicle Use tax to the Federal Government annually to use the federal highway system for commerce, and I pay states by the mile to use their roads.

Why should selling power be any different?

International Fuel Tax Agreement - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Form 2290, Heavy Highway Vehicle Use Tax Return

I still pay the $14.99 per month like everyone does to partially maintain the grid. I also pay a meter use fee. So do folks in Oklahoma. What the State of Oklahoma is doing is legislating additional profit for the utilities. So there you go.

You said you "pay it like everyone else does". Does your additional equipment upkeep or issuance of credits designate extra employee to determine your refund or credit for the energy sold back? Does the company need to maintain additional components for the green energy? If the answer is 'yes' to any of those question, then all those people not able to afford green energy are paying for your additional equipment upkeep and the time it takes to cut the check for credits for your energy sold back. Why is that fair?

There is no equipment upkeep. Inverters auto reset, and batteries are solid core that require no maintenance.

Power meters run forward and backwards. So the meter reader or smart meter technology take care of that so no additional employees are required.

Almost all home green energy is owned by middle class folks. Millions in the US took advantage of China subsidizing their own companies which reduced costs to $6k for the average home, and with tax incentives brought that cost to $3k or less.

 

[Missourian]

A surcharge for what? The energy providers profit? It's called getting screwed.

As much as I hate using Wikipedia as a source, this is what they say...

"Integration with the grid

For reasons of reliability, distributed generation resources (individual solar/wind power*) would be interconnected to the same transmission grid as central stations. Various technical and economic issues occur in the integration of these resources into a grid. Technical problems arise in the areas of power quality, voltage stability, harmonics, reliability, protection, and control.[25] Behavior of protective devices on the grid must be examined for all combinations of distributed and central station generation.[26] A large scale deployment of distributed generation may affect grid-wide functions such as frequency control and allocation of reserves.[27] As a result smart grid functions, virtual power plants and grid energy storage such as power to gas stations are added to the grid."

(*) Added by me.


If the central provider must add protections and new equipment to adapt the distributed generation to the grid, it is not unreasonable to require the distributed generators to cover that cost instead of passing it on to other customers.

You guys are saps. ALL solar generation runs through inverters which eliminate noise and power fluctuations. The additional monies that Oklahoma now requires is to make up for lost profit.

Not all inverters are created equal...I have a lot of experience with inverters.

Only pure sine waves inverters truly eliminate noise and power fluctuations.

Square wave and modified sign wave inverters are the most popular because they are less expensive.

Solar Inverters

 

[Zander]

I still pay the $14.99 per month like everyone does to partially maintain the grid. I also pay a meter use fee. So do folks in Oklahoma. What the State of Oklahoma is doing is legislating additional profit for the utilities. So there you go.

I'll be interested to see how this plays out...if the surcharge is 5 bucks a month like Arizona, I don't see the harm...if it's $50 a month, this law will need to be revisited.

A surcharge for what? The energy providers profit? It's called getting screwed.

If you do not like it, why not go off grid?

Put in a windmill and a solar array. Tap into geothermal and hydroelectric too- with all your big bucks surely you can afford to do all that and more!! Be sure to buy enough battery backup to withstand a 30 day eclipse.too!! Teach those greedy capitalists!! Walk the walk!! Tell the power companies to kiss off!!

just remember - You didn't build that!!

 

[Quantum Windbag]

A surcharge for what? The energy providers profit? It's called getting screwed.

As much as I hate using Wikipedia as a source, this is what they say...

"Integration with the grid

For reasons of reliability, distributed generation resources (individual solar/wind power*) would be interconnected to the same transmission grid as central stations. Various technical and economic issues occur in the integration of these resources into a grid. Technical problems arise in the areas of power quality, voltage stability, harmonics, reliability, protection, and control.[25] Behavior of protective devices on the grid must be examined for all combinations of distributed and central station generation.[26] A large scale deployment of distributed generation may affect grid-wide functions such as frequency control and allocation of reserves.[27] As a result smart grid functions, virtual power plants and grid energy storage such as power to gas stations are added to the grid."

(*) Added by me.


If the central provider must add protections and new equipment to adapt the distributed generation to the grid, it is not unreasonable to require the distributed generators to cover that cost instead of passing it on to other customers.

You guys are saps. ALL solar generation runs through inverters which eliminate noise and power fluctuations. The additional monies that Oklahoma now requires is to make up for lost profit.

You don't even understand the issues here. It isn't about noise or power fluctuations, it is about the fact that power companies cannot plan for the supply of solar power from individual homes. That means they have to keep other sources on standby, diverting them from other places they might be needed. You rich assholes think that you can force poor people to pay for your indulgences, we are rebelling.

 

[Quantum Windbag]

That's total BULLSHIT.

When a person places alternate devices on his/her house, everything is included and installed by the solar/wind company. The ONLY thing the utility does is connect to the grid (which is the utilities requirement) which costs you $125.00 for 5 minutes work. I've been there, bought it, had it installed, and am reaping the benefits.

This is nothing more than Oklahoma Republicans fucking the little guy.

Want to explain how poor people subsidizing rich assholes, like you, who insist on getting paid by the utility company for fucking up the grid, is Republicans fucking over the little guy?

The poor, and to a greater extent the middle class subsidizing the rich has always been a Republican objective. Congrats! Your voting history has fucked you!

btw; the vast majority of home solar power generation is owned by middle class folks, and no matter what Republicans state, it doesn't fuck up the grid.

I love it when you say shit like that in a thread where you are complaining about Republicans cutting subsidies to rich people.

BTW, the vast majority of solar power generation is owned by people who are not poor.

 

[Quantum Windbag]

I still pay the $14.99 per month like everyone does to partially maintain the grid. I also pay a meter use fee. So do folks in Oklahoma. What the State of Oklahoma is doing is legislating additional profit for the utilities. So there you go.

You said you "pay it like everyone else does". Does your additional equipment upkeep or issuance of credits designate extra employee to determine your refund or credit for the energy sold back? Does the company need to maintain additional components for the green energy? If the answer is 'yes' to any of those question, then all those people not able to afford green energy are paying for your additional equipment upkeep and the time it takes to cut the check for credits for your energy sold back. Why is that fair?

There is no equipment upkeep. Inverters auto reset, and batteries are solid core that require no maintenance.

Power meters run forward and backwards. So the meter reader or smart meter technology take care of that so no additional employees are required.

Almost all home green energy is owned by middle class folks. Millions in the US took advantage of China subsidizing their own companies which reduced costs to $6k for the average home, and with tax incentives brought that cost to $3k or less.

That was funny.

In theory, solid state devices will never fail. Funny thing, theory and the real world do not always agree with each other. Everything requires maintenance, anyone that doesn't understand that is an idiot.

 

[HenryBHough]

I cannot see putting yourself through the regulatory bullshit. If you're out to save bucks and will live in the same place for several years...some say 5, some say 10...then a solar (or wind if you're into climbing poles, towers, or just a masochist) system WITH STORAGE is your meat.

How much storage? Varies with what you're trying to accomplish. You could figure out how much you'd need to get through the longest period you expect to be without sun or without wind and buy enough capacity for that. Yeah, batteries are spendy and have to be maintained. Still, there IS payback. Don't overlook that you need some sort or regulation or "reject load" so that you don't overcharge batteries when your private source (solar/wind) is making more than you need.

To moderate the battery requirement you need a proper changeover switch. It can be manual or any of several flavours of automatic. For example, a system can be set up to jump from local to grid power (OK, there will be a momentary glitch) when the batteries fall below a set level.

So long as you're not selling power back to the utility, only using power when you want or need to, then there's none of the BS of synchronization or grid costs. In some place there may be minimum billing so you have to factor that in.

You can also do some clever things where timed usage is available. Use grid power when their rates are lowest; jump to stored (battery) when they're high.

Takes imagination and a decent electrician who is familiar with alternative energy sources.

All the above is about preventing being ripped off as much as possible. Not intended to "save the planet" as anyone who believes humans can save the planet are the most arrogant of assholes as you'll see below momentarily.

 

[Jarlaxle]

I still pay the $14.99 per month like everyone does to partially maintain the grid. I also pay a meter use fee. So do folks in Oklahoma. What the State of Oklahoma is doing is legislating additional profit for the utilities. So there you go.

You said you "pay it like everyone else does". Does your additional equipment upkeep or issuance of credits designate extra employee to determine your refund or credit for the energy sold back? Does the company need to maintain additional components for the green energy? If the answer is 'yes' to any of those question, then all those people not able to afford green energy are paying for your additional equipment upkeep and the time it takes to cut the check for credits for your energy sold back. Why is that fair?

There is no equipment upkeep. Inverters auto reset, and batteries are solid core that require no maintenance.

Stop trying to use words you do not understand. Are you actually saying that inverters and batteries NEVER need ANY upkeep? Batteries last forever, then?

 

[Shrimpbox]

No one has factored in the taxpayer subsidies that go to all installations that skew the real cost of installation, and that we all are paying for to make liberals feel good. And let me say from experience that inverters are great until they bloe up and then they wreck every piece of electronics they are hooked to.

What I keep finding short sighted, sorta like these mercury filled light bulbs we are mandated to use, is the much ballyhooed promise of batteries. Let's say electric cars and home use skyrocket for batteries. Who is ready for the pictures of mountains of batteries, like old tires, polluting the landscape with very toxic cocktails, or the factories( all run by republicans of course) making these lethal batteries and polluting the environment around them. The claim has been made that the disposal of these new light bulbs will release more mercury into the atmosphere than all coal plants combined. Real progress there from the enviros.


Leftists want to complain that business wants to take the cost of a couple of lattes away from them for the privilege of guaranteed and dependable power but call me a reject when I complain about them stealing thousands of dollars from me to pay for other peoples health care. Just another reason our country is upside down.

 

[CaféAuLait]

I still pay the $14.99 per month like everyone does to partially maintain the grid. I also pay a meter use fee. So do folks in Oklahoma. What the State of Oklahoma is doing is legislating additional profit for the utilities. So there you go.

You said you "pay it like everyone else does". Does your additional equipment upkeep or issuance of credits designate extra employee to determine your refund or credit for the energy sold back? Does the company need to maintain additional components for the green energy? If the answer is 'yes' to any of those question, then all those people not able to afford green energy are paying for your additional equipment upkeep and the time it takes to cut the check for credits for your energy sold back. Why is that fair?

There is no equipment upkeep. Inverters auto reset, and batteries are solid core that require no maintenance.

Power meters run forward and backwards. So the meter reader or smart meter technology take care of that so no additional employees are required.

Almost all home green energy is owned by middle class folks. Millions in the US took advantage of China subsidizing their own companies which reduced costs to $6k for the average home, and with tax incentives brought that cost to $3k or less.

What of those power companies who require 2 meters, one for incoming and the other outgoing? And "net meters' for net metering ( backward and forward), you pay for that since it does a different operation than the homes who do not have the same type? Not all home have net meters.

Who reviews and prints the Solar Application and Interconnection Agreement's?

Are there any extra devices needed due to 'islanding' or for anti-islanding devices?

Are you using their infrastructure at any time for the energy they are buying from you or visa versa for the energy you are generating for your home?

 

[OnePercenter]

As much as I hate using Wikipedia as a source, this is what they say...

"Integration with the grid

For reasons of reliability, distributed generation resources (individual solar/wind power*) would be interconnected to the same transmission grid as central stations. Various technical and economic issues occur in the integration of these resources into a grid. Technical problems arise in the areas of power quality, voltage stability, harmonics, reliability, protection, and control.[25] Behavior of protective devices on the grid must be examined for all combinations of distributed and central station generation.[26] A large scale deployment of distributed generation may affect grid-wide functions such as frequency control and allocation of reserves.[27] As a result smart grid functions, virtual power plants and grid energy storage such as power to gas stations are added to the grid."

(*) Added by me.


If the central provider must add protections and new equipment to adapt the distributed generation to the grid, it is not unreasonable to require the distributed generators to cover that cost instead of passing it on to other customers.

You guys are saps. ALL solar generation runs through inverters which eliminate noise and power fluctuations. The additional monies that Oklahoma now requires is to make up for lost profit.

Not all inverters are created equal...I have a lot of experience with inverters.

Only pure sine waves inverters truly eliminate noise and power fluctuations.

Square wave and modified sign wave inverters are the most popular because they are less expensive.

Solar Inverters

No matter what you use it's cleaner than the power you receive from your power company. Try installing SmartHouse technology and gander at the vast amount of electronic protectors.

It still remains about protecting profit.

 

[OnePercenter]

I'll be interested to see how this plays out...if the surcharge is 5 bucks a month like Arizona, I don't see the harm...if it's $50 a month, this law will need to be revisited.

A surcharge for what? The energy providers profit? It's called getting screwed.

If you do not like it, why not go off grid?

Put in a windmill and a solar array. Tap into geothermal and hydroelectric too- with all your big bucks surely you can afford to do all that and more!! Be sure to buy enough battery backup to withstand a 30 day eclipse.too!! Teach those greedy capitalists!! Walk the walk!! Tell the power companies to kiss off!!

just remember - You didn't build that!!

I never stated I didn't like it.

It still remains Republicans are protecting profits of big corporations at the expense of the little guy.