OMG! Science Attacks Religion!

[Underhill]

I think the problem is that you look at this whole discussion as Christian's insisting they're 'morally superior' to others whenever that's not, or shouldn't be, the case. Christ's salvation is exactly because we are incapable of being 'morally superior', regardless of what background or culture you come from. Christian belief is that everyone falls short, and needs salvation. Are some people 'more moral' than others, conduct their lives with more integrity? Yes, that is the case, but in the end, it doesn't matter, you still fall short. And it doesn't matter what culture or society you live in, whether or not your culture is more moral than anothers. It's about each individual and what's in their heart and what they do with their own lives. So you can argue back and forth all day long about cultures who don't believe in God still being 'moral' societies if you want too, but it's meaningless because you seem to lack the basic understanding of what salvation through Christ really means.

So, to address what you actually said, and again I apologize for that, upon reading what you said a bit more carefully, I agree with you at least in part.

I do think that is what the bible teaches. And I think that is what many christians profess. Not the two I've been slapping around here, but christians who have more than a passing knowledge of their bible.

Which is my point. I see no difference in reality, between atheist and christians. Both groups (along with most others) do hideous things at times. Which leads me to believe it has nothing to do with the faith or lack thereof.

 

[Newby]

I think the problem is that you look at this whole discussion as Christian's insisting they're 'morally superior' to others whenever that's not, or shouldn't be, the case. Christ's salvation is exactly because we are incapable of being 'morally superior', regardless of what background or culture you come from. Christian belief is that everyone falls short, and needs salvation. Are some people 'more moral' than others, conduct their lives with more integrity? Yes, that is the case, but in the end, it doesn't matter, you still fall short. And it doesn't matter what culture or society you live in, whether or not your culture is more moral than anothers. It's about each individual and what's in their heart and what they do with their own lives. So you can argue back and forth all day long about cultures who don't believe in God still being 'moral' societies if you want too, but it's meaningless because you seem to lack the basic understanding of what salvation through Christ really means.

So, to address what you actually said, and again I apologize for that, upon reading what you said a bit more carefully, I agree with you at least in part.

I do think that is what the bible teaches. And I think that is what many christians profess. Not the two I've been slapping around here, but christians who have more than a passing knowledge of their bible.

Which is my point. I see no difference in reality, between atheist and christians. Both groups (along with most others) do hideous things at times. Which leads me to believe it has nothing to do with the faith or lack thereof.

It has to do with being human, and therefore fallible. That's why it equally doesn't make sense whenever atheists hold up 'christians' that have done terrible things as a representation of Christianity in their arguments.

 

[PoliticalChic]

No, without god, good and evil are a matter of what is best for the culture at large. Murdering children puts my children at risk, so obviously it is wrong regardless.



You can try to make that argument. But you would be incorrect. Laws have been around long before the bible. The Chinese and Japanese had no western religion and yet had laws. Buddhism doesn't even teach that there is a god and their moral code is similar to ours.



That is complete nonsense.

An atheist still feels pain. We still love our friends and family and care about their future. The only real difference between an atheist and a religious person is the foundation of our morality.

For example, the bible says homosexuality is wrong.

I can see where it may be less preferable in some ways. But I do not see any reason it would be wrong as it doesn't harm anyone.

The bible says marriage is sacred. Again, I can see where marriage can be a benefit when raising kids and the relationship can certainly have it's advantages. But I do not see divorce as inherently evil.

Rape, murder, theft... these things and others are obviously wrong as they harm others and thus have the potential to harm me. So who in their right mind would ever, regardless of belief or lack of belief, think they are okay?

It's absurd.

Of course, you are incorrect.

And history has proven you so.

So...here is your remedial, complete with links and sourced material, so that you may continue your study.



1. The putative father of fascism, the French Revolution, turned politics into a religion, replacing Christianity with a secular faith in the Jacobin agenda. “The Jacobean atheism was integrated with rationalism, …and with the dismissal of Judeo-Christian scriptures.”
Differences between Left & Right in their Psycho-Philosophic background



2. Robespierre’s view was based on Rousseau’s theory of the general will: individuals who live in accordance with the general will are ‘free’ and ‘virtuous’ while those who defy it are criminals, fools, or heretics.
Rousseau: Political Economy




3. You say: "Second, I would point out that the golden rule is innately logical. The fact that virtually every religion on the planet has a similar moral code means that it's not about religion at all, but about a sensible code that benefits all."

Exactly the view of Robespierre and Rousseau!

“For the rulers well know that the general will is always on the side which is most favorable to the public interest, that is to say, the most equitable; so that it is needful only to act justly to be certain of following the general will.” Jean-Jacques Rousseau, “The Social Contract and Discourses,” trans. G.D.H.Cole, p. 297




4. And, what if any don't agree with the 'general will,' or your 'golden rule'?

Although attributed to Rousseau, it was Diderot who gave the model for totalitarianism of reason: “We must reason about all things,” and anyone who ‘refuses to seek out the truth’ thereby renounces his human nature and “should be treated by the rest of his species as a wild beast.” So, once ‘truth’ is determined, anyone who doesn’t accept it was “either insane or wicked and morally evil.” It is not the individual who has the “ right to decide about the nature of right and wrong,” but only “the human race,” expressed as the general will.
Himmelfarb, “The Roads to Modernity,” p. 167-68



And, the sentence for any who disagree?

c. Robespierre used Rousseau’s call for a “reign of virtue,’ proclaiming the Republic of Virtue, his euphemism for The Terror. In ‘The Social Contract’ Rousseau advocated death for anyone who did not uphold the common values of the community: the totalitarian view of reshaping of humanity, echoed in communism, Nazism, progressivism. Robespierre: “the necessity of bringing about a complete regeneration and, if I may express myself so, of creating a new people.” Himmefarb, , Ibid.


Such is morality without God.



5. The comparison? The American Revolution, with the protagonists who were religious.

“The French Revolution occurred almost simultaneously with the American Revolution. While sharing many similarities, there was one glaring difference. The French were not Christian and attempted to introduce a godless humanistic government. The result is amply recorded in history books. Instead of the liberty, justice, peace, happiness, and prosperity experienced in America, France suffered chaos and injustice as thousands of heads rolled under the sharp blade of the guillotine.” Religion and Government in America: Are they*complementary? ? The Mandate


I hope you enjoyed, and reflect on, this history lesson.

I admit, I did get a laugh out of it.

Yet you could find no errors....isn't that true?

So what have we proven....

....you're as dumb as a stump, Underwear......and no amount of documentation
can help you.



Can I guess?
You're a product of government schooling.

True?

 

[PoliticalChic]

Of course, you are incorrect.

And history has proven you so.

I hope you enjoyed, and reflect on, this history lesson.

I'm not going through all that. It's obviously taking one event, almost entirely unrelated, and ascribing characteristics that simply aren't true.

The American Revolution and the French were completely different in a dozen different ways.

So the Christians of America were morally superior?

I would bet the American Indians saw things a bit differently.

It's a gulity pleasure of mine, proving how much more I know then you do....

...so, you'd like a lesson on the Christians and the Indians?

Sure.

1. Government schools trumpet the oppression of 'native' Americans by the early Europeans, and this is merely one more of the expressions of anti-America sentiment so previlent among seculars. This was not the case. Hostility was largely beteen the colonists....based on national origin, and to which variety of religion one subscribed.

a.When the experience of Indian war engulfed the mid-Atlantic, especially Pennsylvania, some of the many dissatisfactions that European colonists had felt toward one another would be trumped.

2. White people in this period were nearly always depicted as suffering at Indians’ hands rather than triumphing over them, and if Europeans did not identify with, and move to mitigate this suffering, then they did not deserve to rule them: this served as a test first of Quaker’s, and then British rule in the middle colonies. This was an important source of the fundamental revolutionary idea of a sovereign people.

a. Quakers during the Seven Years’ War, and Loyalists and British people during the Revolution, would bear the brunt of accusations of caring too much for the Indians. If anything, Quakers went overboard in attempting to embrace the Indians.

3. In the 1750’s, Britain and France began to contest the Ohio country, and Indian attacks attended the opening of the Seven Year’s War, as Ohio Indians sided with the French. The Quakers and Delawares in the east brokered a peace with the western Delawares in Easton, Pennsylvania in 1758.




4. Attacks by French-allied Indians hit Pennsylvania in October 1755. Sixty to one hundred arrived beyond the settlements, and divided into smaller groups, which went into different valleys to reconnoiter. Each spy ”lay[ing] about a House some days & nights, watching like a wolf” to see ”the situation of the Houses, the number of people at Each House, the places the People most frequent, & to observe at each House where there is most men, or women.” The individual farmsteads they chose a targets were at last attacked in parallel by still smaller groups, each only big enough to kill or capture the number of people it was likely to meet. Col. James Burd, “Pennsylvania Archives,” 199-104

a. The brunt of these attacks fell on people who were outside doing field work. The attacks were manufactured to instill paralyzing fear- and they did.

b. In 1756,William Fleming gave an unrivaled account of life in one of these little attack groups. Delawares stormed the house of Fleming’s neighbor, a farmer named Hicks, and took one of the Hicks boys as prisoner. The Indians then went on to instill fear by having Fleming witness the Hicks boys’ murder: they bludgeoned the boy to the ground with a tomahawk, split open his head- pausing at this point, in “Sport…to imitate his expiring Agonies” – and scalped him, and continued “all over besmared with [Hicks’s] blood.”

c. Fleming wrote of watching while a youth from a neighboring family was taken by Indians while inside were “numerous Family of able young Men” and despite his “scream[ing] in a most piteous Manner for help,” his brothers made no attempt to help. A narrative of the sufferings and surprizing deliverances of William and Elizabeth Fleming [electron... | National Library of Australia

d. Northampton County, Pennsylvania, 1778. Four men, two with wives and eight children, were attacked by Indians. [T]his occaion’d our men to flee as fast as they could,…before they were out of sight of the wagon they saw the Indians attacking the women & Children with their Tomahawks.” The net day, the three men came back to the scene for the corpses, which include the stabbed and scalped bodies of Smith’s wife, and of “a Little girl kill’d & sclped, [and] a boy the same.” Pa. Arch. 1:6:591

5. The essential fact about Indian-European warfare in the middle colonies was that the Europeans almost always did very badly. Though the American Revolution brought about a glorified, misleading view of frontier fighters and riflemen, during the eighteenth century country people practically never managed to mount even faintly convincing defenses against Indian attacks….The only thing that worked was leaving.

a. Scalped and mutilated bodies were regularly brought into towns to document Indian barbarity. One strain of the rhetoric simply displayed abuses to the human body before and after death, especially scalping, as well as incineration, nonburial, and dismemberment



So, when one posts "So the Christians of America were morally superior?
I would bet the American Indians saw things a bit differently."

...it is clear that the author of said quote reeks of ignorance.




If you ever decide to actually learn, rather than repeat Leftist pap, pick up
"Our Savage Neighbors: How Indian War Transformed Early America"
by Peter Silver



Imagine....actually reading a book.
Novel idea, eh?

 

[Gadawg73]

Let us take a good look at those moral Christians that fought the British and ran their religious asses back to England:
1. Most of the churches in America at that time SUPPORTED THE BRITISH MONARCHY and proclaimed that GOD gave the monarch divine right power to rule over the masses.
2. Most of the Torries were backed by those churches and they were the opposition to the revolution.
3. Most of those "moral" Christians that founded this country owned slaves, some of them regularly fucked their slaves and a few had children with their slaves.
4. Indentured servitude was prevalent in the colonies.
5. Smuggling was rampant.
6. Alcohol consumption per capita was 10 times what it is now.
7. Abortion was legal and often practiced.
8. Slavery was considered given to them by God and they quoted scripture to support it.
9. Thomas Paine in Age of Reason told the story of most of the founders and their religious beliefs. They were mostly deists. I doubt many of the religious scholars here have ever heard of him much less his writings.
10. Jefferson rejected the Bible as the word of God.
11. Madison was opposed to religious intrusion into civil affairs.
12. Myth was that Washington regularly the Episcopal church in Washington but upon his death the minister wrote that Washington never received communion there. Just like he never cut down the cherry tree.
13. Jesus Christ, Christianity, The Bible, Creator, Divine and God are not mentioned in The Constitution anywhere.
14. The Founders SPECIFICALLY WROTE IN THE CONSTITUTION: "NO RELIGIOUS TEST SHALL EVER BE REQUIRED AS A QUALIFICATION TO ANY OFFICE OR PUBLIC TRUST UNDER THE UNITED STATES" because they did not trust those that held their religious beliefs above the law.
15. This country was founded on rum and whiskey. The demand for rum became the foundation for intercoastal and international trade. Rum was integral to slavery.

 

[PoliticalChic]

I'm not going through all that. It's obviously taking one event, almost entirely unrelated, and ascribing characteristics that simply aren't true.

The American Revolution and the French were completely different in a dozen different ways.

So the Christians of America were morally superior?

I would bet the American Indians saw things a bit differently.

I think the problem is that you look at this whole discussion as Christian's insisting they're 'morally superior' to others whenever that's not, or shouldn't be, the case. Christ's salvation is exactly because we are incapable of being 'morally superior', regardless of what background or culture you come from. Christian belief is that everyone falls short, and needs salvation. Are some people 'more moral' than others, conduct their lives with more integrity? Yes, that is the case, but in the end, it doesn't matter, you still fall short. And it doesn't matter what culture or society you live in, whether or not your culture is more moral than anothers. It's about each individual and what's in their heart and what they do with their own lives. So you can argue back and forth all day long about cultures who don't believe in God still being 'moral' societies if you want too, but it's meaningless because you seem to lack the basic understanding of what salvation through Christ really means.

No, you made the claim that the difference between the french revolution and the american was christianity. It had nothing to do with a king who repeatedly starved his people while living in palaces. By comparison our complaints of over high taxes and restrictive rule was a meager one.

I simply pointed out that the fact that the US was supposedly a 'christian' nation didn't stop them from exterminating the indians. If you don't like the term morally superior, it doesn't really change anything.

Now if you have a reasonable response as to why christianity was such a big help with one and not the other situation I will listen.

"...you made the claim that the difference between the french revolution and the american was christianity. "

It was.

And that is why they don't teach this difference between the two revolutions in government schools.




1. Contrary to the assertions of Liberals, who wish our founding fathers were more like the godless French peasants, skipping around with human heads on a pike, our founding fathers were God-fearing descendants of Puritans and other colonial Christians.
Coulter, 'Demonic," chapter eight.

2. The reason our revolution was so different from the violent, homicidal chaos of the French version was the dominant American culture was Anglo-Saxon and Christian. “52 of the 56 signers of the declaration and 50 to 52 of the 55 signers of the Constitution were orthodox Trinitarian Christians.”
David Limbaugh

3. "The general principles on which the fathers achieved independence were... the general principles of Christianity. ...I will avow that I then believed, and now believe, that those general principles of Christianity are as eternal and immutable as the existence and attributes of God." -
John Adams to Thomas Jefferson, June 28th, 1813, from Quincy. The Adams-Jefferson Letters: The
Complete Correspondence Between Thomas Jefferson and Abigail and John Adams, edited by Lester J. Cappon,
1988, the University of North Carolina Press, Chapel Hill, NC, pp. 338-340.

 

[newpolitics]

I think the problem is that you look at this whole discussion as Christian's insisting they're 'morally superior' to others whenever that's not, or shouldn't be, the case. Christ's salvation is exactly because we are incapable of being 'morally superior', regardless of what background or culture you come from. Christian belief is that everyone falls short, and needs salvation. Are some people 'more moral' than others, conduct their lives with more integrity? Yes, that is the case, but in the end, it doesn't matter, you still fall short. And it doesn't matter what culture or society you live in, whether or not your culture is more moral than anothers. It's about each individual and what's in their heart and what they do with their own lives. So you can argue back and forth all day long about cultures who don't believe in God still being 'moral' societies if you want too, but it's meaningless because you seem to lack the basic understanding of what salvation through Christ really means.

No, you made the claim that the difference between the french revolution and the american was christianity. It had nothing to do with a king who repeatedly starved his people while living in palaces. By comparison our complaints of over high taxes and restrictive rule was a meager one.

I simply pointed out that the fact that the US was supposedly a 'christian' nation didn't stop them from exterminating the indians. If you don't like the term morally superior, it doesn't really change anything.

Now if you have a reasonable response as to why christianity was such a big help with one and not the other situation I will listen.

"...you made the claim that the difference between the french revolution and the american was christianity. "

It was.

And that is why they don't teach this difference between the two revolutions in government schools.




1. Contrary to the assertions of Liberals, who wish our founding fathers were more like the godless French peasants, skipping around with human heads on a pike, our founding fathers were God-fearing descendants of Puritans and other colonial Christians.
Coulter, 'Demonic," chapter eight.

2. The reason our revolution was so different from the violent, homicidal chaos of the French version was the dominant American culture was Anglo-Saxon and Christian. “52 of the 56 signers of the declaration and 50 to 52 of the 55 signers of the Constitution were orthodox Trinitarian Christians.”
David Limbaugh

3. "The general principles on which the fathers achieved independence were... the general principles of Christianity. ...I will avow that I then believed, and now believe, that those general principles of Christianity are as eternal and immutable as the existence and attributes of God." -
John Adams to Thomas Jefferson, June 28th, 1813, from Quincy. The Adams-Jefferson Letters: The
Complete Correspondence Between Thomas Jefferson and Abigail and John Adams, edited by Lester J. Cappon,
1988, the University of North Carolina Press, Chapel Hill, NC, pp. 338-340.

Who our founding fathers were descended from is irrelevant to anything within this discussion. You seem to think this fact makes our founding fathers also puritans or of similar theological disposition: This is a genetic fallacy. Who our founding fathers' forebears were is utterly irrelevant to who they were, and even more so, to the constitution they forged. Your intention in using these facts escapes me. The actual reality of our history, not the one you wish, points to our founding fathers being largely deistic and not the god-fearing Christians you wish them to have been, as they were influenced by enlightenment thinkers such as Rousseau and Voltaire. Quoting a contemporary author with the same Christian bias' as you does nothing to make your case, in fact, it just outlays the severity of your own bias.

 

[koshergrl]

Let us take a good look at those moral Christians that fought the British and ran their religious asses back to England:
1. Most of the churches in America at that time SUPPORTED THE BRITISH MONARCHY and proclaimed that GOD gave the monarch divine right power to rule over the masses. Link/citation needed.
2. Most of the Torries were backed by those churches and they were the opposition to the revolution. Link/citation needed.
3. Most of those "moral" Christians that founded this country owned slaves, some of them regularly fucked their slaves and a few had children with their slaves. Link/citation needed but would just like to point out...at no point did *most* Christians in the US own slaves, you fucking retard.
4. Indentured servitude was prevalent in the colonies. Oh no!!!!!!!
5. Smuggling was rampant. So what?
6. Alcohol consumption per capita was 10 times what it is now. So what?
7. Abortion was legal and often practiced. Sure it was. Citation and link, moron.
8. Slavery was considered given to them by God and they quoted scripture to support it. Link and citation.
9. Thomas Paine in Age of Reason told the story of most of the founders and their religious beliefs. They were mostly deists. I doubt many of the religious scholars here have ever heard of him much less his writings. What ignorant garbage.
10. Jefferson rejected the Bible as the word of God. Not exactly.
11. Madison was opposed to religious intrusion into civil affairs. So what? So were the Danbury Baptists, thank goodness, or we would have a state religion.
12. Myth was that Washington regularly the Episcopal church in Washington but upon his death the minister wrote that Washington never received communion there. Just like he never cut down the cherry tree. Link/citation needed.
13. Jesus Christ, Christianity, The Bible, Creator, Divine and God are not mentioned in The Constitution anywhere. The Year of Our Lord, moron.
14. The Founders SPECIFICALLY WROTE IN THE CONSTITUTION: "NO RELIGIOUS TEST SHALL EVER BE REQUIRED AS A QUALIFICATION TO ANY OFFICE OR PUBLIC TRUST UNDER THE UNITED STATES" because they did not trust those that held their religious beliefs above the law. No, it was to keep dumb fucks like you from telling people what to believe, and violating their God given rights if they didn't adhere to some weird state religious policy.
15. This country was founded on rum and whiskey. The demand for rum became the foundation for intercoastal and international trade. Rum was integral to slavery.

Stellar post, numbnuts. Can't wait for the next installation of lunacy.

 

[Gadawg73]

The Founders were about as Christian as the current politicians in both parties.
Except no one owns any slaves these days, they get impeached for fucking the hired help, they do not own any breweries or distilleries, they do not smuggle illegal goods into the country and they do not openly visit with prostitutes.

I bet they drink as much or more than the Founders.

 

[Gadawg73]

Let us take a good look at those moral Christians that fought the British and ran their religious asses back to England:
1. Most of the churches in America at that time SUPPORTED THE BRITISH MONARCHY and proclaimed that GOD gave the monarch divine right power to rule over the masses. Link/citation needed.
2. Most of the Torries were backed by those churches and they were the opposition to the revolution. Link/citation needed.
3. Most of those "moral" Christians that founded this country owned slaves, some of them regularly fucked their slaves and a few had children with their slaves. Link/citation needed but would just like to point out...at no point did *most* Christians in the US own slaves, you fucking retard.
4. Indentured servitude was prevalent in the colonies. Oh no!!!!!!!
5. Smuggling was rampant. So what?
6. Alcohol consumption per capita was 10 times what it is now. So what?
7. Abortion was legal and often practiced. Sure it was. Citation and link, moron.
8. Slavery was considered given to them by God and they quoted scripture to support it. Link and citation.
9. Thomas Paine in Age of Reason told the story of most of the founders and their religious beliefs. They were mostly deists. I doubt many of the religious scholars here have ever heard of him much less his writings. What ignorant garbage.
10. Jefferson rejected the Bible as the word of God. Not exactly.
11. Madison was opposed to religious intrusion into civil affairs. So what? So were the Danbury Baptists, thank goodness, or we would have a state religion.
12. Myth was that Washington regularly the Episcopal church in Washington but upon his death the minister wrote that Washington never received communion there. Just like he never cut down the cherry tree. Link/citation needed.
13. Jesus Christ, Christianity, The Bible, Creator, Divine and God are not mentioned in The Constitution anywhere. The Year of Our Lord, moron.
14. The Founders SPECIFICALLY WROTE IN THE CONSTITUTION: "NO RELIGIOUS TEST SHALL EVER BE REQUIRED AS A QUALIFICATION TO ANY OFFICE OR PUBLIC TRUST UNDER THE UNITED STATES" because they did not trust those that held their religious beliefs above the law. No, it was to keep dumb fucks like you from telling people what to believe, and violating their God given rights if they didn't adhere to some weird state religious policy.
15. This country was founded on rum and whiskey. The demand for rum became the foundation for intercoastal and international trade. Rum was integral to slavery.

Stellar post, numbnuts. Can't wait for the next installation of lunacy.

The Founders were opposed to any religious influence in government.
Exhibit A: THE UNITED STATES CONSTITUTION.
An interesting document that I am sworn to uphold under my license in Georgia.
I suggest you try reading it one day.
We are a nation of THE LAW, not men and their various religious beliefs.
BTW, the Founders would have had you whipped for attempting to become involved in politics in any way.
Women, especially ones that were battle axe fugly 2 baggers, were kept in their place in those days.

 

[Gadawg73]

No, you made the claim that the difference between the french revolution and the american was christianity. It had nothing to do with a king who repeatedly starved his people while living in palaces. By comparison our complaints of over high taxes and restrictive rule was a meager one.

I simply pointed out that the fact that the US was supposedly a 'christian' nation didn't stop them from exterminating the indians. If you don't like the term morally superior, it doesn't really change anything.

Now if you have a reasonable response as to why christianity was such a big help with one and not the other situation I will listen.

"...you made the claim that the difference between the french revolution and the american was christianity. "

It was.

And that is why they don't teach this difference between the two revolutions in government schools.




1. Contrary to the assertions of Liberals, who wish our founding fathers were more like the godless French peasants, skipping around with human heads on a pike, our founding fathers were God-fearing descendants of Puritans and other colonial Christians.
Coulter, 'Demonic," chapter eight.

2. The reason our revolution was so different from the violent, homicidal chaos of the French version was the dominant American culture was Anglo-Saxon and Christian. “52 of the 56 signers of the declaration and 50 to 52 of the 55 signers of the Constitution were orthodox Trinitarian Christians.”
David Limbaugh

3. "The general principles on which the fathers achieved independence were... the general principles of Christianity. ...I will avow that I then believed, and now believe, that those general principles of Christianity are as eternal and immutable as the existence and attributes of God." -
John Adams to Thomas Jefferson, June 28th, 1813, from Quincy. The Adams-Jefferson Letters: The
Complete Correspondence Between Thomas Jefferson and Abigail and John Adams, edited by Lester J. Cappon,
1988, the University of North Carolina Press, Chapel Hill, NC, pp. 338-340.

Who our founding fathers were descended from is irrelevant to anything within this discussion. You seem to think this fact makes our founding fathers also puritans or of similar theological disposition: This is a genetic fallacy. Who our founding fathers' forebears were is utterly irrelevant to who they were, and even more so, to the constitution they forged. Your intention in using these facts escapes me. The actual reality of our history, not the one you wish, points to our founding fathers being largely deistic and not the god-fearing Christians you wish them to have been, as they were influenced by enlightenment thinkers such as Rousseau and Voltaire. Quoting a contemporary author with the same Christian bias' as you does nothing to make your case, in fact, it just outlays the severity of your own bias.

Having read many of the letters and papers written by the Founders, preserved intact and published in many forms verbatim and offered with no political ideology attached to them the great minds of the enlightment were the ones that spot on influenced the founders.
The enlightment DID have an acceptance and encouragement of religious tolerance but individual liberty and freedom, as evidenced in the Bill of Rights in The Constitution, was the total focus of the founders. The ideas and beliefs of John Locke directly influenced the founders to the system of republicanism in the United States.
Totally absent ANY religious influences as that was what the Europeans had in their monarchies and the founders opposed that.
Again, refer to The Constitution.
One only has to read the letters for many years before and after the revolution and offerings to the Continental Congress of Franklin, Adams, Jefferson and Wilson to see it. It is all there.
But these brain washed mental midgets here will not take the time to educate themselves.
They believe God made America.

 

[koshergrl]

Let us take a good look at those moral Christians that fought the British and ran their religious asses back to England:
1. Most of the churches in America at that time SUPPORTED THE BRITISH MONARCHY and proclaimed that GOD gave the monarch divine right power to rule over the masses. Link/citation needed.
2. Most of the Torries were backed by those churches and they were the opposition to the revolution. Link/citation needed.
3. Most of those "moral" Christians that founded this country owned slaves, some of them regularly fucked their slaves and a few had children with their slaves. Link/citation needed but would just like to point out...at no point did *most* Christians in the US own slaves, you fucking retard.
4. Indentured servitude was prevalent in the colonies. Oh no!!!!!!!
5. Smuggling was rampant. So what?
6. Alcohol consumption per capita was 10 times what it is now. So what?
7. Abortion was legal and often practiced. Sure it was. Citation and link, moron.
8. Slavery was considered given to them by God and they quoted scripture to support it. Link and citation.
9. Thomas Paine in Age of Reason told the story of most of the founders and their religious beliefs. They were mostly deists. I doubt many of the religious scholars here have ever heard of him much less his writings. What ignorant garbage.
10. Jefferson rejected the Bible as the word of God. Not exactly.
11. Madison was opposed to religious intrusion into civil affairs. So what? So were the Danbury Baptists, thank goodness, or we would have a state religion.
12. Myth was that Washington regularly the Episcopal church in Washington but upon his death the minister wrote that Washington never received communion there. Just like he never cut down the cherry tree. Link/citation needed.
13. Jesus Christ, Christianity, The Bible, Creator, Divine and God are not mentioned in The Constitution anywhere. The Year of Our Lord, moron.
14. The Founders SPECIFICALLY WROTE IN THE CONSTITUTION: "NO RELIGIOUS TEST SHALL EVER BE REQUIRED AS A QUALIFICATION TO ANY OFFICE OR PUBLIC TRUST UNDER THE UNITED STATES" because they did not trust those that held their religious beliefs above the law. No, it was to keep dumb fucks like you from telling people what to believe, and violating their God given rights if they didn't adhere to some weird state religious policy.
15. This country was founded on rum and whiskey. The demand for rum became the foundation for intercoastal and international trade. Rum was integral to slavery.

Stellar post, numbnuts. Can't wait for the next installation of lunacy.

The Founders were opposed to any religious influence in government.
A blatant lie. They were opposed to governmental influence on RELIGION.
Exhibit A: THE UNITED STATES CONSTITUTION.
An interesting document that I am sworn to uphold under my license in Georgia. And which asserts that the government has no right to interfere with the free practice, discussion of, and reference to religion.
I suggest you try reading it one day. I have. Apparently you either haven't, or are motivated to lie about the contents thereof.
We are a nation of THE LAW, not men and their various religious beliefs.
BTW, the Founders would have had you whipped for attempting to become involved in politics in any way. Sure they would have, weirdo.
Women, especially ones that were battle axe fugly 2 baggers, were kept in their place in those days.

Every intelligent person on this site knows you exactly for what you are...a backwards, misogynistic piece of shit who is motivated to lie about the constitution in order to undermine it. You only surface when we get a new flux of woefully ignorant newbies who you manage to temporarily bamboozle with your self-aggrandizing BS and your patently backwards interpretation of democracy, the law, and history. I give you about one week before you either sink back into the slime from whence you issue, or receive a stern warning or ban that will return you to the netherlands where you belong, and primarily inhabit.

 

[PoliticalChic]

No, you made the claim that the difference between the french revolution and the american was christianity. It had nothing to do with a king who repeatedly starved his people while living in palaces. By comparison our complaints of over high taxes and restrictive rule was a meager one.

I simply pointed out that the fact that the US was supposedly a 'christian' nation didn't stop them from exterminating the indians. If you don't like the term morally superior, it doesn't really change anything.

Now if you have a reasonable response as to why christianity was such a big help with one and not the other situation I will listen.

"...you made the claim that the difference between the french revolution and the american was christianity. "

It was.

And that is why they don't teach this difference between the two revolutions in government schools.




1. Contrary to the assertions of Liberals, who wish our founding fathers were more like the godless French peasants, skipping around with human heads on a pike, our founding fathers were God-fearing descendants of Puritans and other colonial Christians.
Coulter, 'Demonic," chapter eight.

2. The reason our revolution was so different from the violent, homicidal chaos of the French version was the dominant American culture was Anglo-Saxon and Christian. “52 of the 56 signers of the declaration and 50 to 52 of the 55 signers of the Constitution were orthodox Trinitarian Christians.”
David Limbaugh

3. "The general principles on which the fathers achieved independence were... the general principles of Christianity. ...I will avow that I then believed, and now believe, that those general principles of Christianity are as eternal and immutable as the existence and attributes of God." -
John Adams to Thomas Jefferson, June 28th, 1813, from Quincy. The Adams-Jefferson Letters: The
Complete Correspondence Between Thomas Jefferson and Abigail and John Adams, edited by Lester J. Cappon,
1988, the University of North Carolina Press, Chapel Hill, NC, pp. 338-340.

Who our founding fathers were descended from is irrelevant to anything within this discussion. You seem to think this fact makes our founding fathers also puritans or of similar theological disposition: This is a genetic fallacy. Who our founding fathers' forebears were is utterly irrelevant to who they were, and even more so, to the constitution they forged. Your intention in using these facts escapes me. The actual reality of our history, not the one you wish, points to our founding fathers being largely deistic and not the god-fearing Christians you wish them to have been, as they were influenced by enlightenment thinkers such as Rousseau and Voltaire. Quoting a contemporary author with the same Christian bias' as you does nothing to make your case, in fact, it just outlays the severity of your own bias.

If you were any more full of it you’d be infracting the national foie gras restrictions.

 

[koshergrl]

Let us take a good look at those moral Christians that fought the British and ran their religious asses back to England:
1. Most of the churches in America at that time SUPPORTED THE BRITISH MONARCHY and proclaimed that GOD gave the monarch divine right power to rule over the masses. Link/citation needed.
2. Most of the Torries were backed by those churches and they were the opposition to the revolution. Link/citation needed.
3. Most of those "moral" Christians that founded this country owned slaves, some of them regularly fucked their slaves and a few had children with their slaves. Link/citation needed but would just like to point out...at no point did *most* Christians in the US own slaves, you fucking retard.
4. Indentured servitude was prevalent in the colonies. Oh no!!!!!!!
5. Smuggling was rampant. So what?
6. Alcohol consumption per capita was 10 times what it is now. So what?
7. Abortion was legal and often practiced. Sure it was. Citation and link, moron.
8. Slavery was considered given to them by God and they quoted scripture to support it. Link and citation.
9. Thomas Paine in Age of Reason told the story of most of the founders and their religious beliefs. They were mostly deists. I doubt many of the religious scholars here have ever heard of him much less his writings. What ignorant garbage.
10. Jefferson rejected the Bible as the word of God. Not exactly.
11. Madison was opposed to religious intrusion into civil affairs. So what? So were the Danbury Baptists, thank goodness, or we would have a state religion.
12. Myth was that Washington regularly the Episcopal church in Washington but upon his death the minister wrote that Washington never received communion there. Just like he never cut down the cherry tree. Link/citation needed.
13. Jesus Christ, Christianity, The Bible, Creator, Divine and God are not mentioned in The Constitution anywhere. The Year of Our Lord, moron.
14. The Founders SPECIFICALLY WROTE IN THE CONSTITUTION: "NO RELIGIOUS TEST SHALL EVER BE REQUIRED AS A QUALIFICATION TO ANY OFFICE OR PUBLIC TRUST UNDER THE UNITED STATES" because they did not trust those that held their religious beliefs above the law. No, it was to keep dumb fucks like you from telling people what to believe, and violating their God given rights if they didn't adhere to some weird state religious policy.
15. This country was founded on rum and whiskey. The demand for rum became the foundation for intercoastal and international trade. Rum was integral to slavery.

Stellar post, numbnuts. Can't wait for the next installation of lunacy.

The Founders were opposed to any religious influence in government.

"Despite individual differences, these men professed a belief in God as the Creator of the universe and believed that religion encouraged a moral citizenry, which they deemed essential to the success of the new republic."

http://www.pbs.org/godinamerica/people/god-and-the-constitution.html

Exhibit A: THE UNITED STATES CONSTITUTION.
An interesting document that I am sworn to uphold under my license in Georgia.
I suggest you try reading it one day.

We are a nation of THE LAW, not men and their various religious beliefs.
BTW, the Founders would have had you whipped for attempting to become involved in politics in any way.
Women, especially ones that were battle axe fugly 2 baggers, were kept in their place in those days.

I can always count on you to remain a class act. I'll stand by for family references and threats, weirdo.

 

[Avatar4321]

you are ridiculous

That's a lazy argument.

 

[newpolitics]

"...you made the claim that the difference between the french revolution and the american was christianity. "

It was.

And that is why they don't teach this difference between the two revolutions in government schools.




1. Contrary to the assertions of Liberals, who wish our founding fathers were more like the godless French peasants, skipping around with human heads on a pike, our founding fathers were God-fearing descendants of Puritans and other colonial Christians.
Coulter, 'Demonic," chapter eight.

2. The reason our revolution was so different from the violent, homicidal chaos of the French version was the dominant American culture was Anglo-Saxon and Christian. “52 of the 56 signers of the declaration and 50 to 52 of the 55 signers of the Constitution were orthodox Trinitarian Christians.”
David Limbaugh

3. "The general principles on which the fathers achieved independence were... the general principles of Christianity. ...I will avow that I then believed, and now believe, that those general principles of Christianity are as eternal and immutable as the existence and attributes of God." -
John Adams to Thomas Jefferson, June 28th, 1813, from Quincy. The Adams-Jefferson Letters: The
Complete Correspondence Between Thomas Jefferson and Abigail and John Adams, edited by Lester J. Cappon,
1988, the University of North Carolina Press, Chapel Hill, NC, pp. 338-340.

Who our founding fathers were descended from is irrelevant to anything within this discussion. You seem to think this fact makes our founding fathers also puritans or of similar theological disposition: This is a genetic fallacy. Who our founding fathers' forebears were is utterly irrelevant to who they were, and even more so, to the constitution they forged. Your intention in using these facts escapes me. The actual reality of our history, not the one you wish, points to our founding fathers being largely deistic and not the god-fearing Christians you wish them to have been, as they were influenced by enlightenment thinkers such as Rousseau and Voltaire. Quoting a contemporary author with the same Christian bias' as you does nothing to make your case, in fact, it just outlays the severity of your own bias.

If you were any more full of it you’d be infracting the national foie gras restrictions.

Am I to infer from this red herring that you find the practice of foie gras morally ambiguous? I'm not surprised, coming from a Christian who thinks humans have domain over the animals, therefore shoving feeding tubes down the throats of ducks three times a day and essentially making them sick to fatten their livers to hugely abnormal sizes or slaughter, is 'natural.' There is a lot wrong with your reasoning capacity.

 

[newpolitics]

you are ridiculous

That's a lazy argument.

As is the argument I was responding to, so it just seemed fitting that I respond in similar fashion so as to be respectful.

 

[Gadawg73]

Stellar post, numbnuts. Can't wait for the next installation of lunacy.

The Founders were opposed to any religious influence in government.

"Despite individual differences, these men professed a belief in God as the Creator of the universe and believed that religion encouraged a moral citizenry, which they deemed essential to the success of the new republic."

http://www.pbs.org/godinamerica/people/god-and-the-constitution.html

Exhibit A: THE UNITED STATES CONSTITUTION.
An interesting document that I am sworn to uphold under my license in Georgia.
I suggest you try reading it one day.

We are a nation of THE LAW, not men and their various religious beliefs.
BTW, the Founders would have had you whipped for attempting to become involved in politics in any way.
Women, especially ones that were battle axe fugly 2 baggers, were kept in their place in those days.

I can always count on you to remain a class act. I'll stand by for family references and threats, weirdo.

Yes, you are one classy woman.
"You piece of shit"
Funny also that you call this great nation a democracy.

 

[Gadawg73]

Where have any of us made any claim that the government should have any right to control any religion, ban any religion in this country or have any right to interfere with the freedom of the practice of any religion?
WE SUPPORT THOSE THINGS.
Those things are the FRUITS of The Constitution clearly stating NO RELIGIOUS TEST TO RUN FOR PUBLIC OFFICE.
Without the fact that the Constitution MENTIONS RELIGION NO WHERE you do not end up with the other.
Amazing the ignorance of the religious right.

 

[Avatar4321]

you are ridiculous

That's a lazy argument.

As is the argument I was responding to, so it just seemed fitting that I respond in similar fashion so as to be respectful.

Cop out. If you can't respond to the points made, dont bother posting. Attacking the messenger isn't a mature or intellectual response.