On this 4th of July........Don’t forget to thank a Liberal

[mikegriffith1]

Wow....you totally missed out on history The founders step forward was in all men are created equal. Imagine challenging that royalty was no better than anyone else? Or that common men should have the same rights as wealthy men. Quite a step forward.

You really need to just stop embarrassing yourself. The idea that royalty was no better than anyone else and that the rich and the poor should have the same rights were doctrines that were taught and embraced for centuries by many British Tories and by Whigs who were very conservative on many other issues. You simply have no idea what you're talking about.

In terms of taxation, government operation, social programs, rights of women and blacks ....they had an 18th century mindset. Future liberals would fix that

LOL! Uh, you mean future liberals would repudiate the founders' beliefs in free enterprise, fair trade, federalism, property rights, religious freedom, limited regulation, gun rights, limited taxation, etc., etc. Modern American conservatives, not liberals, are the ones who teach what the founders taught on these and many other issues.

To say that the founders were the political ancestors of modern American liberals because they rejected British control over the Colonies, rejected the divine right of kings, and believed in equal rights for rich and poor is beyond laughable. John Locke, Frederic Bastiat, William Blackstone, St. George Tucker, Adam Smith, Oliver Cromwell, etc., etc., believed in equal rights before the law for rich and poor alike, but nobody in their right mind would compare them to modern American liberals.

To put it another way, you take a few general ("no-brainer") issues for your comparison, issues on which there was wide agreement among Whigs and Tories, and you ignore everything else the founding fathers taught and believed, to make the ludicrous claim that the founding fathers were similar to modern American liberals. Never mind that modern American liberals reject 90% of everything the founders taught and believed, right?

 

[rightwinger]

To think of comparing and judging the Founders with today's conservatives and liberals is just silly.

However, today's far right and alt right Americans are, in fact, politically anti-freedom.

Proof: just read USMB daily.

They were the liberals of their time
Just like today’s liberals are the liberals of our time

In other words, their beliefs were totally different from yours.

The phrase "liberals of their time" is utterly meaningless since you allow the term "liberal" to mean virtually anything. All you're proving is what huge weasel you are.

Liberalism is an evolving mindset

To say that because you don’t have the exact same beliefs as someone in 1775 you can’t be liberal is ridiculous

How much have the beliefs of the Republican Party changed since 1860? Does anyone say that because you do not believe exactly what Lincoln believed you can’t be a Republican?

 

[mikegriffith1]

To think of comparing and judging the Founders with today's conservatives and liberals is just silly.

However, today's far right and alt right Americans are, in fact, politically anti-freedom.

Proof: just read USMB daily.

They were the liberals of their time
Just like today’s liberals are the liberals of our time

In other words, their beliefs were totally different from yours.

The phrase "liberals of their time" is utterly meaningless since you allow the term "liberal" to mean virtually anything. All you're proving is what huge weasel you are.

Liberalism is an evolving mindset

To say that because you don’t have the exact same beliefs as someone in 1775 you can’t be liberal is ridiculous

How much have the beliefs of the Republican Party changed since 1860? Does anyone say that because you do not believe exactly what Lincoln believed you can’t be a Republican?

You just keep digging your hole deeper and deeper. FYI, there were plenty of people in the 18th century who shared many views with modern American liberals, but they weren't the founding fathers! Heard of the French Revolution and the Jacobins?! The Jacobins favored wealth distribution from the rich to the poor via confiscatory taxes on the rich, favored abolishing morality laws, favored big and intrusive government, favored centralized education, rejected traditional morality as oppressive and outdated, attacked religion, etc., etc. They called themselves the "Friends of Freedom and Equality." They are routinely described in our day as "left-wing" and "radical," etc., etc.

You really should read some real history before you get on a public board and utterly embarrass yourself.

The New Jacobin Normal

 

[JakeStarkey]

So you say libs then are not libs now, but yet you want to connect Jacobins then to libs now.

That, mike, is another of your colossal fallacies of false equivalency.

You really should follow your own advice and ". . . read some real history before you get on a public board and utterly embarrass yourself."

Good heavens, this is just embarrassing on your part.

 

[Carl in Michigan]

Imagine believing that all men were created equal, that royalty were no better than anyone else, that common people should vote

And yet today's liberal worship the Almighty State and believe the individual is it's SLAVE.

I know the Founders and YOU are their ENEMY.

 

[rightwinger]

To think of comparing and judging the Founders with today's conservatives and liberals is just silly.

However, today's far right and alt right Americans are, in fact, politically anti-freedom.

Proof: just read USMB daily.

They were the liberals of their time
Just like today’s liberals are the liberals of our time

In other words, their beliefs were totally different from yours.

The phrase "liberals of their time" is utterly meaningless since you allow the term "liberal" to mean virtually anything. All you're proving is what huge weasel you are.

Liberalism is an evolving mindset

To say that because you don’t have the exact same beliefs as someone in 1775 you can’t be liberal is ridiculous

How much have the beliefs of the Republican Party changed since 1860? Does anyone say that because you do not believe exactly what Lincoln believed you can’t be a Republican?

You just keep digging your hole deeper and deeper. FYI, there were plenty of people in the 18th century who shared many views with modern American liberals, but they weren't the founding fathers! Heard of the French Revolution and the Jacobins?! The Jacobins favored wealth distribution from the rich to the poor via confiscatory taxes on the rich, favored abolishing morality laws, favored big and intrusive government, favored centralized education, rejected traditional morality as oppressive and outdated, attacked religion, etc., etc. They called themselves the "Friends of Freedom and Equality." They are routinely described in our day as "left-wing" and "radical," etc., etc.

You really should read some real history before you get on a public board and utterly embarrass yourself.

The New Jacobin Normal

No question that our liberal founding fathers borrowed ideas from around the world and picked the best

 

[rightwinger]

Imagine believing that all men were created equal, that royalty were no better than anyone else, that common people should vote

And yet today's liberal worship the Almighty State and believe the individual is it's SLAVE.

I know the Founders and YOU are their ENEMY.

What ridiculous propaganda

 

[EvilCat Breath]

Don't forget to thank a slaveowner.

 

[EvilCat Breath]

Modern liberals would be fighting for King George and free healthcare

Socialized medicine is a pillar of the National brand of socialism as well. A non-negotiable part of Mr. Hitler's agenda in Germany.

Liberal historians have tried to erase the fact that Josef Mengele was a doctor in Germany's public health service.

Mengele, as well as Hitler ......were conservatives

Does it ever get boring making the Hitler = conservative argument?

Does it ever get boring being a conservative and acting like Hitler?

Hitler might have had a point but he picked the wrong people to put in those concentration camps.

 

[IM2]

Modern liberals would be fighting for King George and free healthcare

Socialized medicine is a pillar of the National brand of socialism as well. A non-negotiable part of Mr. Hitler's agenda in Germany.

Liberal historians have tried to erase the fact that Josef Mengele was a doctor in Germany's public health service.

Mengele, as well as Hitler ......were conservatives

Does it ever get boring making the Hitler = conservative argument?

Does it ever get boring being a conservative and acting like Hitler?

Hitler might have had a point but he picked the wrong people to put in those concentration camps.

Yeah he forgot to put people like you in them.

 

[mikegriffith1]

So you say libs then are not libs now, but yet you want to connect Jacobins then to libs now.

That, mike, is another of your colossal fallacies of false equivalency.

You really should follow your own advice and ". . . read some real history before you get on a public board and utterly embarrass yourself." Good heavens, this is just embarrassing on your part.

Actually, as you'd know if you knew what you were talking about, there are plenty of strong parallels between modern American liberalism and Jacobinism. Lenin himself spoke of the parallels between his ideology and Jacobin ideology. Consider:

* The Jacobins postured as being for the average person and against the rich, even though many of them were wealthy.

* The Jacobins supported wealth distribution via confiscatory taxation of the rich. When the Jacobins came to power with the French Revolution, they engaged in massive wealth confiscation.

* The Jacobins detested religion and opposed traditional morality. They took over churches, exiled thousands of priests, and murdered thousands of Christians. They even destroyed crosses.

* The Jacobins believed the government had the right to confiscate anyone's property if the government deemed it necessary.

* Simply put, the Jacobins were socialists--again, as Lenin himself noted. In fact, modern socialists continue to praise the Jacobins (see below).

Although Thomas Jefferson flirted with some aspects of the French Revolution, he later realized the gross excesses that were involved with it.

https://www.cambridge.org/core/services/aop-cambridge-core/content/view/S0020859000001437

CATHOLIC ENCYCLOPEDIA: French Revolution

To the Mountain of 1793! To the Pure Socialists, its True Heirs! by Auguste Blanqui 1849

1793, Rise and Fall of the Jacobins

Why on earth did French revolutionaries persecute and murder enclosed nuns? | CatholicHerald.co.uk

 

[JakeStarkey]

You cannot compare Jacobins with the parties of today if you can't compare the libs of then to now.

You already gutted your argument with a fallacy of false equivalency, mike.

You suicided your own argument.

 

[Weatherman2020]

To think of comparing and judging the Founders with today's conservatives and liberals is just silly.

However, today's far right and alt right Americans are, in fact, politically anti-freedom.

Proof: just read USMB daily.

They were the liberals of their time
Just like today’s liberals are the liberals of our time

In other words, their beliefs were totally different from yours.

The phrase "liberals of their time" is utterly meaningless since you allow the term "liberal" to mean virtually anything. All you're proving is what huge weasel you are.

The Dufus claims the Founding Fathers wanted a huge government controlling every aspect of our lives.

 

[JakeStarkey]

The goofus is that person who says Adams, Hamilton, Washington, etc., did not want a stronger national government than the Confederation government.

 

[bripat9643]

The goofus is that person who says Adams, Hamilton, Washington, etc., did not want a stronger national government than the Confederation government.

Yeah, they wanted it 25% stronger, not 10,000 times stronger as we have today.

 

[mikegriffith1]

Rather than "thank a liberal," you should thank a person who believes in the same principles that the founding fathers taught--the belief that our rights come from God, limited government, federalism, gun rights, limited taxation, free enterprise, minimal business regulation, religious freedom, individual responsibility, freedom of speech, the rule of law, etc., etc. In other words, you should thank a conservative, not a liberal.

Modern American liberals reject most of the principles that the founding fathers taught, whereas they hold many of the same beliefs that the Jacobins of the French Revolution embraced.

 

[Weatherman2020]

The goofus is that person who says Adams, Hamilton, Washington, etc., did not want a stronger national government than the Confederation government.

The Founding Fathers rebelled against a Confederation government???

 

[JakeStarkey]

The goofus is that person who says Adams, Hamilton, Washington, etc., did not want a stronger national government than the Confederation government.

The Founding Fathers rebelled against a Confederation government???

Against the Articles of Confederation Government. Sure. The Shay Rebellion shook them up, and Hamilton convinced the Founders that trade could not be managed without a stronger national government.

 

[tycho1572]

I’ve been thanking libs for helping Trump get re-elected for a second term.

 

[rightwinger]

To think of comparing and judging the Founders with today's conservatives and liberals is just silly.

However, today's far right and alt right Americans are, in fact, politically anti-freedom.

Proof: just read USMB daily.

They were the liberals of their time
Just like today’s liberals are the liberals of our time

In other words, their beliefs were totally different from yours.

The phrase "liberals of their time" is utterly meaningless since you allow the term "liberal" to mean virtually anything. All you're proving is what huge weasel you are.

The Dufus claims the Founding Fathers wanted a huge government controlling every aspect of our lives.

The founding fathers were incapable of forming a large government. The US was deeply in debt and had a weak economy
If they didn’t want future generations forming huge governments......they would have banned it