Opinion Piece: "Why Progressives Misead"

[danielpalos]

.

Wow, this is a topic that I think about quite a bit, pretty amazing to have someone write about it:

Why Progressives Mislead by John O. McGinnis City Journal Winter 2015

The primary point is that "Progressivism’s vision of the role of the state conflicts with the system of government envisioned by America’s Founders", and therefore they feel they have to be less than honest about their real goals to see them fulfilled.

I agree completely with that.

Thing is, as a person who agrees with them on many left-of-center issues (or at least disagree with conservatives on them), I don't think dishonesty is necessary. If we are correct on those issues, we should be able to win the battle of ideas in completely honest conversation, yes? And if we lose, then the country just isn't with us, at least right now.

.

I believe progressives really just need a clue and a Cause:

In contrast, the greatest political theorist of American progressivism, Herbert Croly, said that the nation’s “democracy should be focused on an equal sharing of wealth and responsibilities”—an enterprise that demands a larger and more intrusive federal state to enforce. Obama spoke from this tradition on the campaign trail in 2008—most famously, when he told Joe the Plumber that it was “good to spread the wealth around.”

We simply need the equivalent to an "oil pump" that "lubricates" social transactions that involve mutually beneficial trade with a perfectly competitive, medium of exchange; in much the same way an oil pump lubricates the work of the moving parts to transmit power to the vehicle and that form of "engine" of our economy.

The legal and physical infrastructure already exists in our republic. We could be solving simple poverty and correcting for laissez-fair Capitalism's laziness regarding the externality to the Institution of money based markets, known as a Natural Rate of Unemployment.

We could be improving the efficiency of our economy on an at-will basis through Individual Liberty.

 

[Wyatt earp]

Wow, got a whole lot of "miseading" going on.

Yup a liberals 1st posts is to attack the messenger, not the message how predictable, they always think they are superior and know what's better for us then us.

Fucking morons

Full disclosure, I knew how much my little thread was going to tweak the hardcore left wingers.

Especially the part about how I lean left on many issues, they sure as hell don't want to hear that.

Guilty as charged!



.

I thought you leaned left in a lot of issues, that's why I didn't understand why lone and Joe attacking you, they must be ultra left fruit cakes

Oh wait a sec take that back about Joe

 

[MisterBeale]

The fundamental principle of the progressive system is big unlimited government. Such a government lead by a small elite, as we have today, has never worked long term in all of human history. Ultimately it will fail causing terrible injustice and suffering.

However this fundamental principle applies to nearly all political systems, except libertarian-ism and anarchy.

Government is essentially rule by elite. History tells us rule by elite benefits the elites and harms all others.

again, when you small government types move to Somalia, I will take you seriously.

You might want to educate yourself on conditions in Somalia, before citing it. It is not a libertarian or anarchist society.

My guess is you would like it there. It is a nation ruled by warlords...hence rule by elite, which you so like.

On top of that, if it weren't for the Warlords, there is every indication that it would be a very successful Stateless society. Compared to it's neighboring Statetist shit holes, the economic progress it has made in a such a short time is amazing. It deifies belief.

Anarchy in Somalia
Mises Daily Mises Institute
Somalia: How Has Life Changed?
Index 1991 2011 (or latest)
Life expectancy 46 years 50 years
Birth rate 46 44
Death rate 19 16
GDP per capita $210 $600
Infant mortality 116 deaths <1yr, per 1,000 births 109 deaths <1yr, per 1,000 births
Access to safe water 35% 29%
Adult literacy 24% 38%
With the exception of the drop in birth rates (which is ambiguous) and the drop in access to safe water (which is clearly a bad thing), the above chart shows incredible progress on numerous fronts. I daresay that if a UN or World Bank intervention into a state-controlled African country had yielded such results, it would be trumpeted from the hilltops. (To avoid confusion: international aid groups are currently working in Somalia, and they could be partially responsible for the improvements illustrated in the chart.)

Somalia After State Collapse: Chaos or Improvement?
http://www.independent.org/pdf/working_papers/64_somalia.pdf
Many people believe that Somalia’s economy has been in chaos since the collapse of its national government in 1991. We take a comparative institutional approach to examine Somalia’s performance relative to other African countries both when Somalia had a government and during its extended period of anarchy. We find that although Somalia is poor, its relative economic performance has improved during its period of statelessness. We also describe how Somalia has provided basic law and order and a currency, which have enabled the country to achieve the coordination that has led to improvements in its standard of living.

 

[NYcarbineer]

.

Wow, this is a topic that I think about quite a bit, pretty amazing to have someone write about it:

Why Progressives Mislead by John O. McGinnis City Journal Winter 2015

The primary point is that "Progressivism’s vision of the role of the state conflicts with the system of government envisioned by America’s Founders", and therefore they feel they have to be less than honest about their real goals to see them fulfilled.

I agree completely with that.

Thing is, as a person who agrees with them on many left-of-center issues (or at least disagree with conservatives on them), I don't think dishonesty is necessary. If we are correct on those issues, we should be able to win the battle of ideas in completely honest conversation, yes? And if we lose, then the country just isn't with us, at least right now.

.

How long should we remain in the 18th century, or go back there?

 

[Mac1958]

Wow, got a whole lot of "miseading" going on.

Yup a liberals 1st posts is to attack the messenger, not the message how predictable, they always think they are superior and know what's better for us then us.

Fucking morons

Full disclosure, I knew how much my little thread was going to tweak the hardcore left wingers.

Especially the part about how I lean left on many issues, they sure as hell don't want to hear that.

Guilty as charged!



.

I thought you leaned left in a lot of issues, that's why I didn't understand why lone and Joe attacking you, they must be ultra left fruit cakes

Oh wait a sec take that back about Joe

Yup, Joe is hardcore and Lone is my little stalker, posting to me even though he knows he's on ignore.

People like that see everything in a very simplistic, shallow, binary way. Since I disagree with them on one thing, they think that I disagree with them on everything.

Their perceptions are so distorted by their ideology that they somehow "don't see" my posts on foreign policy, war, gay rights, abortion, individual income taxation, health care, unions, etc.

Fascinating, huh?

.

 

[NYcarbineer]

.

Wow, this is a topic that I think about quite a bit, pretty amazing to have someone write about it:

Why Progressives Mislead by John O. McGinnis City Journal Winter 2015

The primary point is that "Progressivism’s vision of the role of the state conflicts with the system of government envisioned by America’s Founders", and therefore they feel they have to be less than honest about their real goals to see them fulfilled.

I agree completely with that.

Thing is, as a person who agrees with them on many left-of-center issues (or at least disagree with conservatives on them), I don't think dishonesty is necessary. If we are correct on those issues, we should be able to win the battle of ideas in completely honest conversation, yes? And if we lose, then the country just isn't with us, at least right now.

.

Who's lying about what?

 

[gipper]

The fundamental principle of the progressive system is big unlimited government. Such a government lead by a small elite, as we have today, has never worked long term in all of human history. Ultimately it will fail causing terrible injustice and suffering.

However this fundamental principle applies to nearly all political systems, except libertarian-ism and anarchy.

Government is essentially rule by elite. History tells us rule by elite benefits the elites and harms all others.

again, when you small government types move to Somalia, I will take you seriously.

You might want to educate yourself on conditions in Somalia, before citing it. It is not a libertarian or anarchist society.

My guess is you would like it there. It is a nation ruled by warlords...hence rule by elite, which you so like.

On top of that, if it weren't for the Warlords, there is every indication that it would be a very successful Stateless society. Compared to it's neighboring Statetist shit holes, the economic progress it has made in a such a short time is amazing. It deifies belief.

Anarchy in Somalia
Mises Daily Mises Institute
Somalia: How Has Life Changed?
Index 1991 2011 (or latest)
Life expectancy 46 years 50 years
Birth rate 46 44
Death rate 19 16
GDP per capita $210 $600
Infant mortality 116 deaths <1yr, per 1,000 births 109 deaths <1yr, per 1,000 births
Access to safe water 35% 29%
Adult literacy 24% 38%
With the exception of the drop in birth rates (which is ambiguous) and the drop in access to safe water (which is clearly a bad thing), the above chart shows incredible progress on numerous fronts. I daresay that if a UN or World Bank intervention into a state-controlled African country had yielded such results, it would be trumpeted from the hilltops. (To avoid confusion: international aid groups are currently working in Somalia, and they could be partially responsible for the improvements illustrated in the chart.)

Somalia After State Collapse: Chaos or Improvement?
http://www.independent.org/pdf/working_papers/64_somalia.pdf
Many people believe that Somalia’s economy has been in chaos since the collapse of its national government in 1991. We take a comparative institutional approach to examine Somalia’s performance relative to other African countries both when Somalia had a government and during its extended period of anarchy. We find that although Somalia is poor, its relative economic performance has improved during its period of statelessness. We also describe how Somalia has provided basic law and order and a currency, which have enabled the country to achieve the coordination that has led to improvements in its standard of living.

Great article.

Proof that statelessness is far better than what typically exists throughout the world.

If only the people would realize that a central government is evil, and we no longer need it.

 

[MisterBeale]

Wow, got a whole lot of "miseading" going on.

Yup a liberals 1st posts is to attack the messenger, not the message how predictable, they always think they are superior and know what's better for us then us.

Fucking morons

Full disclosure, I knew how much my little thread was going to tweak the hardcore left wingers.

Especially the part about how I lean left on many issues, they sure as hell don't want to hear that.

Guilty as charged!



.

I thought you leaned left in a lot of issues, that's why I didn't understand why lone and Joe attacking you, they must be ultra left fruit cakes

Oh wait a sec take that back about Joe

Some folks aren't partisans, they have free minds and the ability to think independently of what schools and media tell them to think.

Others, well, they need to be told what to think.

Free thinkers do their own research and think for themselves. It is hard work, but it is the most fufilling and rewarding method to make up your own mind about how the world operates. I like to say, DO YOUR OWN RESEARCH.

This is the paradigm you need to follow when figuring out what solution to any problem is the best course for your politicians to follow. Don't just trust corporate funded interest groups, politicians or media, they all have an agenda.

And what is the reward for not just listening to others, a partisan political party, the government, "experts" or the media for your ideas?

I think Socrates said it best. . .

While at the same time keeping in mind that. . .

 

[Edgetho]

Look up the 'Beijing Consensus', aka; The China Model.

It's where dimocrap scum want to take us.... With them in charge, of course.

Every.Single.Item in the China Model dovetails perfectly with what dimocrap filth are proposing for our future. THINK about it.

Brazil implemented it and swore by it, often disparaging the 'Washington Consensus' the economic model the United States of America uses, along its way.

Most of you (especially dimocraps who are dumber than a box of fucking rocks) wouldn't remember all the insults we had to suffer at the hands of Brazilian Presidents, including racial disparagements, etc, toward us and our way of life.

Now it seems, Brazil, China, India and everybody else using the China Model are falling on hard times while we, despite the hindrance of having a Lying Cocksucker in Chief infesting the white house, are moving along fairly well -- All things considered.

If the American People understood the direction in which dimocrap SCUM want to take the Country, they'd throw dimocrap filth out on their heads. Fast.

That is one reason why dimocrap filth have to lie about who and what they are.

The other, more important, reason is -- dimocraps are the scum of the earth

 

[Wyatt earp]

Wow, got a whole lot of "miseading" going on.

Yup a liberals 1st posts is to attack the messenger, not the message how predictable, they always think they are superior and know what's better for us then us.

Fucking morons

Full disclosure, I knew how much my little thread was going to tweak the hardcore left wingers.

Especially the part about how I lean left on many issues, they sure as hell don't want to hear that.

Guilty as charged!



.

I thought you leaned left in a lot of issues, that's why I didn't understand why lone and Joe attacking you, they must be ultra left fruit cakes

Oh wait a sec take that back about Joe

Yup, Joe is hardcore and Lone is my little stalker, posting to me even though he knows he's on ignore.

People like that see everything in a very simplistic, shallow, binary way. Since I disagree with them on one thing, they think that I disagree with them on everything.

Their perceptions are so distorted by their ideology that they somehow "don't see" my posts on foreign policy, war, gay rights, abortion, individual income taxation, health care, unions, etc.

Fascinating, huh?

.

Tell me about it, I am pro gun control and don't care about a womans right to choose, I post it werido gun or anti abortion ultra right wingers attack me for being a lefty

And I won't even mention how stupid I think raising the minimum wage is, I am now attacked by ultra ignorant leftys, saying I am dumb

 

[Edgetho]

Some folks aren't partisans, they have free minds and the ability to think independently of what schools and media tell them to think.

Others, well, they need to be told what to think.

Free thinkers do their own research and think for themselves. It is hard work, but it is the most fufilling and rewarding method to make up your own mind about how the world operates. I like to say, DO YOUR OWN RESEARCH.

This is the paradigm you need to follow when figuring out what solution to any problem is the best course for your politicians to follow. Don't just trust corporate funded interest groups, politicians or media, they all have an agenda.

And what is the reward for not just listening to others, a partisan political party, the government, "experts" or the media for your ideas?

I think Socrates said it best. . .

While at the same time keeping in mind that. . .

dewd.....

You tell us not to let others tell us how to think and then......

You provide us with a list telling us how to think?

What The Fuck!, Over.

BTW, Socrates almost certainly never existed.

Ponder that

 

[Mac1958]

Some folks aren't partisans, they have free minds and the ability to think independently of what schools and media tell them to think.

Others, well, they need to be told what to think.

Free thinkers do their own research and think for themselves. It is hard work, but it is the most fufilling and rewarding method to make up your own mind about how the world operates. I like to say, DO YOUR OWN RESEARCH.

Yep.

A hardcore partisan ideologue's biggest enemy is not a hardcore partisan ideologue from the other "side". They're easy.

A hardcore partisan ideologue's biggest enemy is someone who chooses to think for themselves.

That's why they get so defensive and cranky.

.

 

[MisterBeale]

Examples? Got any cases of a USMB progressive clearly lying about his or her intentions? Is love to see that.

It is one thing to be "clearly lying about his or her intentions." It is another thing to be misleading others.

What if you do not even know the specifics of that which you are talking about?

Remember, when a lot of legislation and policies are proposed and enacted, even the politicians themselves don't even know what is in the laws that are written, or if they do, they don't know how the laws will be applied or written into codes. How on earth can the USMB posters that post in favor of these politicians be "lying" about this legislation? They can't be, neither can the politician. It's called "plausible deniability." Only the policy wonks or interest groups that wrote the legislation could be the deceivers.

 

[Edgetho]

Look, people.

Let me run this by you one more time, m'kay?

Politicians are what they are -- Dishonest, corrupt, narcissistic, undependable, yada, yada, yada...

Republicans are slightly dishonest, slightly corrupt and slightly narcissistic.

I don't like them. I don't like ANY of them.

But this is where we part ways.... Me from most other Republicans...

I don't expect, nor do I want, a beneficent government, a benign 'ruler' a 'good' leader because --

There is no such thing.

Follow me? THERE IS NO SUCH THING AS A BENIGN GOVERNMENT!!!!!

But government is necessary. It is an absolute requirement. Which is where I part ways with Liberturdians.

Our goal should be, as Patriots and Americans, to understand that ALL politicians are what they are... As I explained above. If you get a really good one, like Ronaldus Magnus, once a generation or so, consider yourselves lucky.

But most of the time we have to settle for men like Boehner and McConnell. Not great men, not necessarily hugely honest but definitely NOT scum of the earth dimocrap filth.

The idea here is NOT to look for messiah-like figures because -- They don't exist. They're a trap. Just ask the residents of 1933 Germany and 1920's Italy and 1940's China and so on and so on.

If one comes along.... So be it. But it's almost always an accident.

The idea, people, is to keep the scum of the earth -- dimocraps, OUT of office.

They are totalitarian, dictatorial, dishonest, corrupt, racist, anti-American FILTH.

They just are.

And what prevents us from defeating those scum EVERY SINGLE TIME is crybaby 'conservatives' who think the next Ronald Reagan can be wished into existence.

So they stay home and pout like the little bitches they are, allowing the scum of the earth to be elected -- And we get to watch as the scum of the earth steals our freedom and our Country away from us.

This post isn't for dimocrap filth. You can not imagine what I think of you....

This post is for recalcitrant, crybaby 'Republicans' who think a saviour is coming to save them from themselves.

Grow up. There is no such thing as a benign government. Thinking that way makes you no better than the scum of the earth dimocraps

 

[MisterBeale]

Some folks aren't partisans, they have free minds and the ability to think independently of what schools and media tell them to think.

Others, well, they need to be told what to think.

Free thinkers do their own research and think for themselves. It is hard work, but it is the most fufilling and rewarding method to make up your own mind about how the world operates. I like to say, DO YOUR OWN RESEARCH.

This is the paradigm you need to follow when figuring out what solution to any problem is the best course for your politicians to follow. Don't just trust corporate funded interest groups, politicians or media, they all have an agenda.

And what is the reward for not just listening to others, a partisan political party, the government, "experts" or the media for your ideas?

I think Socrates said it best. . .

While at the same time keeping in mind that. . .

dewd.....

You tell us not to let others tell us how to think and then......

You provide us with a list telling us how to think?

What The Fuck!, Over.

BTW, Socrates almost certainly never existed.

Ponder that

lol. Yes, I agree. I am sure it came off that way. You have a very good point.

But there is a very subtle distinction between the establishment telling you WHAT to think, and YOU, the individual figuring out HOW to synthesize your OWN thoughts. If you don't know HOW to think creatively, how are you going to provide yourself with your own ORIGINAL thoughts? Are you satisfied with the TV, Radio, and Newspapers telling you WHAT to think?

I provided instructions for those WHO DON'T know how to think for themselves, or HOW to think for themselves. THESE are the common steps followed for the creative method of coming to new ideas and conclusions by oneself.

However, it is probably a hopeless endeavor. I know that once neurons are in place, and a routine is set up, it is VERY hard to do anything other than what the human mind is comfortable with. It would take some monumental event to shake a person out of their delusional complacent habits.




Whether Socrates never existed is academic. It is the same with Jesus. Most would say the same of Christ. There is as much evidence of whether Socrates existed as there is as to whether the Christ existed. It doesn't matter either way. What matters is what the characters said. I'm not here to debate history or derail a thread with something WAY off topic.

BACK to it, progressives need to be deceptive in our bloated modern welfare state to get their agenda passed, wouldn't you basically agree on that?

 

[JoeB131]

You might want to educate yourself on conditions in Somalia, before citing it. It is not a libertarian or anarchist society.

My guess is you would like it there. It is a nation ruled by warlords...hence rule by elite, which you so like.

I have. It's everything you Libertarian Crackpots want. No government, everyone has a fucking gun, everyone has a crazy religion.

 

[JoeB131]

Full disclosure, I knew how much my little thread was going to tweak the hardcore left wingers.

Especially the part about how I lean left on many issues, they sure as hell don't want to hear that.

Guilty as charged!

So you are admitting to being a troll?

 

[EdwardBaiamonte]

You might want to educate yourself on conditions in Somalia, before citing it. It is not a libertarian or anarchist society.

My guess is you would like it there. It is a nation ruled by warlords...hence rule by elite, which you so like.

I have. It's everything you Libertarian Crackpots want. No government, everyone has a fucking gun, everyone has a crazy religion.

libertarians are not anarchists. You have learned that 100 times. What is wrong with you?

 

[Mac1958]

Full disclosure, I knew how much my little thread was going to tweak the hardcore left wingers.

Especially the part about how I lean left on many issues, they sure as hell don't want to hear that.

Guilty as charged!

So you are admitting to being a troll?

Whatever you want, Joe.

.

 

[EdwardBaiamonte]

Especially the part about how I lean left on many issues, they sure as hell don't want to hear that.
.

can you give us the best example of where leaning left is not stupid?