Opinion Piece: "Why Progressives Misead"

[JoeB131]

I think if anyone "misleads", it's the right wing.

Give you a great example. In 2004, George W. Bush was in trouble. Then his advisers decided to gin up the gay marriage issue, even though at that point, only one state had legalized it. But they all started talking about the sanctity of marriage and how we needed to pass resolutions and how he was going to support an amendment to the US Constitution defining marriage as between a man and a woman.

(Nobody mention Cheney's daughter is a Lesbian, though.)

Except after he won, he totally didn't do that. Instead, he thought he had a mandate to privatize social security, something that even Republican balked at and he never talked about during the campaign. He never made mention of the gay stuff again.

And today, gay marriage is now legal in 38 states, will probably be legal in the whole country.

 

[chikenwing]

I think if anyone "misleads", it's the right wing.

Give you a great example. In 2004, George W. Bush was in trouble. Then his advisers decided to gin up the gay marriage issue, even though at that point, only one state had legalized it. But they all started talking about the sanctity of marriage and how we needed to pass resolutions and how he was going to support an amendment to the US Constitution defining marriage as between a man and a woman.

(Nobody mention Cheney's daughter is a Lesbian, though.)

Except after he won, he totally didn't do that. Instead, he thought he had a mandate to privatize social security, something that even Republican balked at and he never talked about during the campaign. He never made mention of the gay stuff again.

And today, gay marriage is now legal in 38 states, will probably be legal in the whole country.

So??!! weaki ass post,so your all but hurt because Bush didn't say what you think he should have ,Time to put your big boy pants on and grow up.

 

[JoeB131]

Mac is right he does lean left on many issues. I am thinking that is why he gets such rough treatment from the left wing, he isn't pure enough.

No, he gets treated roughly because he constantly whines about political correctness while completely ignoring a lot of the blatant racism that goes on here every day. And then when someone calls him on it, he starts whining about how everyone is picking on him.

I also don't think that the majority on the left are misleading, there is just so much they do not know. It is much easier just to take the left wing, or right wing, view without much thought. So it is worse then just misleading it is blind alliance. How else can it be explained the left wing support for almost no immigration reform and them saying they are for the working man? Flood the market with cheap uneducated and unskilled workers then complain that somehow the rich are cutting out the American poor from those same jobs. Misleading? Maybe. Blind alliance to an ideology, certainly.

Guy, let's get real. most of the jobs illegals do, Americans dont' want to do and certainly don't want their children doing, and that's kind of been the history of the whole country, which is why you have a lot of Kowalskis and Spinellis and McDoogans in this country, because someone brought them in to to the unpleasant stuff the WASPs didn't want to do.

Same with Hillary. One would think she is everything a young progressive would hate. Rich, yet claimed to be poor after signing a 4 million dollar book deal. Old, yes 69 will be old. No real accomplishments except riding Bill's coattails. No matter what she does they will blindly support her. All the while deriding Republicans because they have a big open field of candidates. Such diversity and openness is unknown to the modern progressive. Get in line or get out.

What diversity? You guys are going to nominate Jeb Bush. and then you will wonder why people, when given a choice between Clinton and Bush, they pick Peace and Prosperity of over War and Recession.

 

[JoeB131]

So??!! weaki ass post,so your all but hurt because Bush didn't say what you think he should have ,Time to put your big boy pants on and grow up.

Okay, go find someone to help you with the big words and re-read what I wrote again.

If you were a Right-Wing Working Class Christian who voted for Bush in 2004 because he was against two dudes having the butt sex, and at the end of it you find out they are still having the butt sex, but now your job has gone to China, you probably should feel pretty stupid about now.

 

[Freewill]

Could you please provide the quote of someone, anyone making such a claim? And no, just because YOU think it is obvious isn't the same as reality.

You mean other than Paul Ryan, who wanted to shred to social safety net to give more tax breaks to the rich?

Could you please provide the source of this information?

 

[Freewill]

Mac is right he does lean left on many issues. I am thinking that is why he gets such rough treatment from the left wing, he isn't pure enough.

No, he gets treated roughly because he constantly whines about political correctness while completely ignoring a lot of the blatant racism that goes on here every day. And then when someone calls him on it, he starts whining about how everyone is picking on him.

I also don't think that the majority on the left are misleading, there is just so much they do not know. It is much easier just to take the left wing, or right wing, view without much thought. So it is worse then just misleading it is blind alliance. How else can it be explained the left wing support for almost no immigration reform and them saying they are for the working man? Flood the market with cheap uneducated and unskilled workers then complain that somehow the rich are cutting out the American poor from those same jobs. Misleading? Maybe. Blind alliance to an ideology, certainly.

Guy, let's get real. most of the jobs illegals do, Americans dont' want to do and certainly don't want their children doing, and that's kind of been the history of the whole country, which is why you have a lot of Kowalskis and Spinellis and McDoogans in this country, because someone brought them in to to the unpleasant stuff the WASPs didn't want to do.

Same with Hillary. One would think she is everything a young progressive would hate. Rich, yet claimed to be poor after signing a 4 million dollar book deal. Old, yes 69 will be old. No real accomplishments except riding Bill's coattails. No matter what she does they will blindly support her. All the while deriding Republicans because they have a big open field of candidates. Such diversity and openness is unknown to the modern progressive. Get in line or get out.

What diversity? You guys are going to nominate Jeb Bush. and then you will wonder why people, when given a choice between Clinton and Bush, they pick Peace and Prosperity of over War and Recession.

From black to white, from Doctor to professional politiican that is the Republican field. The Democrat field, is Hillary. That is all you need to know.

Now, can you quote me a source of your information that the job illegals are doing Americans don't want to do? I might agree that they are jobs that Americans don't HAVE to do. What you are saying, in my opinion, is that the American poor are lazy welfare bums that rather live on the societies' dime more then work for their money. OR worse you are saying we need to import slave labor to get the work completed.

 

[zeke]

Now, can you quote me a source of your information that the job illegals are doing Americans don't want to do? I might agree that they are jobs that Americans don't HAVE to do.

from; Roofing Contractor;
Still, I told myself, illegal immigrants are hurting the U.S. economy. Although I was developing compassion for their situations, what they were doing was wrong. They need us. We don’t need them.

I recently learned I was wrong.

As it turns out, most U.S. citizens aren’t all that interested in doing some of the hardest jobs in our society, especially for low wages. In some cases, we do need them.

One of our construction-focused media brands, Roofing Contractor, holds an annual conference called Best of Success. This year I attended a roundtable among contractors. During this off-the-record discussion, participants transparently shared the realities of hiring and retaining workers in today’s cut-throat construction market.

Their most pressing challenge is finding workers willing to do the hard manual labor that roofing requires. Several companies recently lost workers when Immigration & Customs Enforcement (ICE) agents found the workers had forged their papers. The employees, including many long-term, high-value workers, were deported.

At the height of the recession, one large contracting company lost 25 percent of its workforce because of deportation. “No problem,” the owners thought. “We’ll get tons of applicants in this economy.”

Guess what? Despite aggressively advertising the openings, they received only a handful of resumes. None of the applicants worked out. The company is still searching.

All but one of the companies represented in the roundtable decried the lack of interest from home-grown local workers. They especially were outraged by interviewees who elected to keep receiving unemployment, rather than accept a job on a roofing crew.

 

[Freewill]

I think if anyone "misleads", it's the right wing.

Give you a great example. In 2004, George W. Bush was in trouble. Then his advisers decided to gin up the gay marriage issue, even though at that point, only one state had legalized it. But they all started talking about the sanctity of marriage and how we needed to pass resolutions and how he was going to support an amendment to the US Constitution defining marriage as between a man and a woman.

(Nobody mention Cheney's daughter is a Lesbian, though.)

Except after he won, he totally didn't do that. Instead, he thought he had a mandate to privatize social security, something that even Republican balked at and he never talked about during the campaign. He never made mention of the gay stuff again.

And today, gay marriage is now legal in 38 states, will probably be legal in the whole country.

More precisely gay marriage, what a devisive term, is not illegal in 38 states, big difference. Most, if not all those states gay marriage was made not illegal by a court ruling on a law that was passed defining marriage between a man and a woman. You are doing exactly what Mac talks about, being misleading.

And as I remember the DOMA was passed.

 

[Freewill]

Now, can you quote me a source of your information that the job illegals are doing Americans don't want to do? I might agree that they are jobs that Americans don't HAVE to do.

from; Roofing Contractor;
Still, I told myself, illegal immigrants are hurting the U.S. economy. Although I was developing compassion for their situations, what they were doing was wrong. They need us. We don’t need them.

I recently learned I was wrong.

As it turns out, most U.S. citizens aren’t all that interested in doing some of the hardest jobs in our society, especially for low wages. In some cases, we do need them.

One of our construction-focused media brands, Roofing Contractor, holds an annual conference called Best of Success. This year I attended a roundtable among contractors. During this off-the-record discussion, participants transparently shared the realities of hiring and retaining workers in today’s cut-throat construction market.

Their most pressing challenge is finding workers willing to do the hard manual labor that roofing requires. Several companies recently lost workers when Immigration & Customs Enforcement (ICE) agents found the workers had forged their papers. The employees, including many long-term, high-value workers, were deported.

At the height of the recession, one large contracting company lost 25 percent of its workforce because of deportation. “No problem,” the owners thought. “We’ll get tons of applicants in this economy.”

Guess what? Despite aggressively advertising the openings, they received only a handful of resumes. None of the applicants worked out. The company is still searching.

All but one of the companies represented in the roundtable decried the lack of interest from home-grown local workers. They especially were outraged by interviewees who elected to keep receiving unemployment, rather than accept a job on a roofing crew.

What they are really saying is, we couldn't find replacement workers who would work for the wages we were paying.

Assuming that your bold paragraph is true then in lies the problem. If there is work available and a person is qualified then they either work or get no unemployment. Someone just doesn't get unemployment they have to work for the benefit.

Here is a web site addressing the issue: Illegal Aliens Taking U.S. Jobs 2013

 

[zeke]

freewilly, where are your comments and evidence that poorer Americans are looking for the work that illegals do?
Or did you conveniently miss that article I posted where one guy was claiming that Americans DO NOT want to be roofers?

 

[zeke]

If there is work available and a person is qualified then they either work or get no unemployment. Someone just doesn't get unemployment they have to work for the benefit.

Ah ha, so you did see that article. And how would you enforce the idea that a person who already worked long enough to receive UE is now going to lose UE because there was a job available they didn't take? You do understand the UE is a benefit that the workers have to be qualified for? Right? You don't just get to collect UE because you want to collect UE.

If you could draw UE and/or work for a little above MW on a roof for basically the same money with the risk, what would you do?

I tried to hire Americans for a siding crew I ran. Good luck finding A. someone who wants to work hard. and 2. someone who knows what the hell they are doing. Ended up working short of a crew, taking longer to complete jobs and never did find American workers who wanted to work.

 

[gipper]

I think if anyone "misleads", it's the right wing.

Give you a great example. In 2004, George W. Bush was in trouble. Then his advisers decided to gin up the gay marriage issue, even though at that point, only one state had legalized it. But they all started talking about the sanctity of marriage and how we needed to pass resolutions and how he was going to support an amendment to the US Constitution defining marriage as between a man and a woman.

(Nobody mention Cheney's daughter is a Lesbian, though.)

Except after he won, he totally didn't do that. Instead, he thought he had a mandate to privatize social security, something that even Republican balked at and he never talked about during the campaign. He never made mention of the gay stuff again.

And today, gay marriage is now legal in 38 states, will probably be legal in the whole country.

Are you claiming W was a right winger? Nothing could be further from the truth.

You think the R party is right wing, while a very small number of Rs in Congress are, they are effectively controlled by their leadership, which is progressive.

The R party has not nominated a right winger since Reagan, and even he had many progressive statist policies.

If only partisans like you could see the truth. Both parties are progressive, which should make you happy...but leading leftists have duped you.

 

[Dogmaphobe]

I like the term "progressive", myself.

I mean, whenever various posters come off as complete, fucking Nazis when discussing world politics, when they identify themselves as "progressive", it's nice to know they are of the left wing variety instead of right wing.

As far as the article, I disagree with the writer, because the term "progressive" when self-applied involves a membership in a tribe instead of having anything to do with an actual political ideology. This is merely the term its adherents use to note their hostility towards anything they frame as "conservative" or "right wing", and as such, a "progressive" is really just a a knee jerk reaction instead of an actual ideology.

That being said, if our health care system were single payer, it might be called progressive in the classic sense. As is, it is only a massive gift to insurance companies.

 

[Freewill]

freewilly, where are your comments and evidence that poorer Americans are looking for the work that illegals do?
Or did you conveniently miss that article I posted where one guy was claiming that Americans DO NOT want to be roofers?

As i pointed out, the guy is telling you that Americans don't want to be roofers for the wages and living conditions that the roofer is willing to pay. What part of that don't you understand?

I had my roof put on by 4 white, American men in the middle of July. I paid them what they asked and they were happy to get it. BUT, if I wanted to be cheap, I would have looked for someone hiring illegals cause we know they pay less thus there should be a savings. I say should be but that in not necessarily the case. They may pay less but charge just as much. The roofing business is notorious for paying low wages and bad working conditions. Those who don't do either should be rewarded.

 

[zeke]

What they are really saying is, we couldn't find replacement workers who would work for the wages we were paying.

Hell next thing I know, you will be advocating for a union to get American wages up to a level that Americans will work FOR.

But just curious, why should an American worker be paid considerably more than the illegal for the same jobs?
Do you want all your home improvement projects to increase in price?

You don't realize how the illegals have made it possible for Americans to get their work done cheaply.
Illegals are no different than the slave labor paid to a Chinese worker. The Chinese workers pay is fine with us because it makes cheap shit available to us. And with our stagnant wages, people need cheap shit to buy.

And for the very same reason, Americans need cheap illegal labor to make it affordable to have home improvement projects done less expensively.

Americans won't work for Chinese labor rates. Why would they work for illegal immigrants labor rates?

 

[zeke]

As i pointed out, the guy is telling you that Americans don't want to be roofers for the wages and living conditions that the roofer is willing to pay. What part of that don't you understand?

What point is it that you are trying to make? How much more is an American roofer worth compared to a Mexican roofer?

You do realize that you benefited indirectly from the illegal roofer on the roof you had put on? Right? Every American who gets a roofing job quoted a price that was right in line with what a company using illegals would quote. You know why? Cause the white roofer knew they had to keep their price in line with the competition. SO they wouldn't lose the business to a crew of illegals.

I have put down lots of roofs. I think I should have been paid 25 dollars an hour for tear off. It is that hard of a job.
But you can get an illegal to tear off for MW. It ain't rocket science. Just hard work. Would you pay 25 dollars an hour for hard work that requires no real skill? Hell no.

 

[The Rabbi]

Wow, got a whole lot of "miseading" going on.

Any actual intelligent input, Joe?

.

It would be a first. Truly.

 

[Freewill]

What they are really saying is, we couldn't find replacement workers who would work for the wages we were paying.

Hell next thing I know, you will be advocating for a union to get American wages up to a level that Americans will work FOR.

But just curious, why should an American worker be paid considerably more than the illegal for the same jobs?
Do you want all your home improvement projects to increase in price?

You don't realize how the illegals have made it possible for Americans to get their work done cheaply.
Illegals are no different than the slave labor paid to a Chinese worker. The Chinese workers pay is fine with us because it makes cheap shit available to us. And with our stagnant wages, people need cheap shit to buy.

And for the very same reason, Americans need cheap illegal labor to make it affordable to have home improvement projects done less expensively.

Americans won't work for Chinese labor rates. Why would they work for illegal immigrants labor rates?

See again you mislead. I am not anti-union, I was a union member for 30 years and an official for many years.

I AM for paying people a living wage, YOU apparently think that just because a person is willing to work for what the roofers pay that is a good wage. Illegal workers suppress good wages. But you have revealed what I have been saying all along, the left wants their lettuce picked on the cheap. They no more care about the American worker or those flooding the boarder then anyone else cares they are just hypocritical about it..

 

[Freewill]

As i pointed out, the guy is telling you that Americans don't want to be roofers for the wages and living conditions that the roofer is willing to pay. What part of that don't you understand?

What point is it that you are trying to make? How much more is an American roofer worth compared to a Mexican roofer?

You do realize that you benefited indirectly from the illegal roofer on the roof you had put on? Right? Every American who gets a roofing job quoted a price that was right in line with what a company using illegals would quote. You know why? Cause the white roofer knew they had to keep their price in line with the competition. SO they wouldn't lose the business to a crew of illegals.

I have put down lots of roofs. I think I should have been paid 25 dollars an hour for tear off. It is that hard of a job.
But you can get an illegal to tear off for MW. It ain't rocket science. Just hard work. Would you pay 25 dollars an hour for hard work that requires no real skill? Hell no.

OK, you convinced me. You are all for suppressing wages to make a profit.

Tearing a roof off can be hard work I have done it myself many times but it is not killer work. I would have done it to my house but I don't like using worn out equipment.

 

[MisterBeale]

Oh. Okay.

Then it's off to ignore land you go. You're too nasty for me.

Bye bye now!

"Waaaah, Joe was mean to me by not accepting my paranoia as valid!!!"

You have made it to the big time Joe. You are on Mac's ignore list. Pretty soon Mac won't have anyone not on ignore except for the right wing crazies. Who of course, will eventually put Mac on their ignore list. For being to moderate. Interesting.

Free thinking anarchists, libertarians, anarcho-socialists, voluntarists, and those who believe in honest constitutional government will always believe he has something to contribute. Those who don't let the pundits and media tell them what to think and don't ever put other posters on ignore, will always see what's going down.