Our Kennedy.

[Bfgrn]

Kennedy was an anti communist- HE is the one who became engaged in Vietnam. HE is the one who encouraged what eventually became the Vietnam War. How do you justify saying there would have been "no Vietnam War" had he lived?

Because after coming to the brink of Nuclear War with Russia over Cuba, Kennedy got a stark lesson in how things like these confrontations can spin out of control.

It's pretty clear Kennedy viewed Vietnam as a dead end. And he probably would have scaled down our involvement.

There is absolutely no historic proof that Kennedy viewed Vietnam in that way. Nor is there any indication that he was planning to scale down our involvement. John Kennedy was actively resisting Communism's spread around the globe.

There IS proof...

NATIONAL SECURITY ACTION MEMORANDUM NO. 263

TO: Secretary of State
Secretary of Defense
Chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff


SUBJECT: South Vietnam

At a meeting on October 5, 1963, the President considered the recommendations contained in the report of Secretary McNamara and General Taylor on their mission to South Vietnam.

The President approved the military recommendations contained in Section I B (1 -3) of the report, but directed that no formal announcement be made of the implementation of plans to withdraw 1,000 U.S. military personnel by the end of 1963.

...

2. The objectives of the United States with respect to the withdrawal of U.S. military personnel remain as stated in the White House statement of October 2, 1963.

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

U.S. POLICY ON VIET-NAM: WHITE HOUSE STATEMENT, OCTOBER 2, 1963

Secretary [of Defense Robert S.] McNamara and General [Maxwell D.] Taylor reported to the President this morning and to the National Security Council this afternoon. Their report included a number of classified findings and recommendations which will be the subject of further review and action. Their basic presentation was endorsed by all members of the Security Council and the following statement of United States policy was approved by the President on the basis of recommendations received from them and from Ambassador [Henry Cabot] Lodge.

1. The security of South Viet-Nam is a major interest of the United States as other free nations. We will adhere to our policy of working with the people and Government of South Viet-Nam to deny this country to communism and to suppress the externally stimulated and supported insurgency of the Viet Cong as promptly as possible. Effective performance in this undertaking is the central objective of our policy in South Viet-Nam.

2. The military program in South Viet-Nam has made progress and is sound in principle, though improvements are being energetically sought.

3. Major U.S. assistance in support of this military effort is needed only until the insurgency has been suppressed or until the national security forces of the Government of South Viet-Nam are capable of suppressing it.

Secretary McNamara and General Taylor reported their judgment that the major part of the U.S. military task can be completed by the end of 1965, although there may be a continuing requirement for a limited number of U.S. training personnel. They reported that by the end of this year, the U.S. program for training Vietnamese should have progressed to the point where 1,000 U.S. military personnel assigned to South Viet-Nam can be withdrawn.

4. The political situation in South Viet-Nam remains deeply serious. The United States has made clear its continuing opposition to any repressive actions in South Viet-Nam. While such actions have not yet significantly affected the military effort, they could do so in the future.

5. It remains the policy of the United States, in South Viet-Nam as in other parts of the world, to support the efforts of the people of that country to defeat aggression and to build a peaceful and free society.

 

[Oldstyle]

Because after coming to the brink of Nuclear War with Russia over Cuba, Kennedy got a stark lesson in how things like these confrontations can spin out of control.

It's pretty clear Kennedy viewed Vietnam as a dead end. And he probably would have scaled down our involvement.

There is absolutely no historic proof that Kennedy viewed Vietnam in that way. Nor is there any indication that he was planning to scale down our involvement. John Kennedy was actively resisting Communism's spread around the globe.

There IS proof...

NATIONAL SECURITY ACTION MEMORANDUM NO. 263

TO: Secretary of State
Secretary of Defense
Chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff


SUBJECT: South Vietnam

At a meeting on October 5, 1963, the President considered the recommendations contained in the report of Secretary McNamara and General Taylor on their mission to South Vietnam.

The President approved the military recommendations contained in Section I B (1 -3) of the report, but directed that no formal announcement be made of the implementation of plans to withdraw 1,000 U.S. military personnel by the end of 1963.

...

2. The objectives of the United States with respect to the withdrawal of U.S. military personnel remain as stated in the White House statement of October 2, 1963.

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

U.S. POLICY ON VIET-NAM: WHITE HOUSE STATEMENT, OCTOBER 2, 1963

Secretary [of Defense Robert S.] McNamara and General [Maxwell D.] Taylor reported to the President this morning and to the National Security Council this afternoon. Their report included a number of classified findings and recommendations which will be the subject of further review and action. Their basic presentation was endorsed by all members of the Security Council and the following statement of United States policy was approved by the President on the basis of recommendations received from them and from Ambassador [Henry Cabot] Lodge.

1. The security of South Viet-Nam is a major interest of the United States as other free nations. We will adhere to our policy of working with the people and Government of South Viet-Nam to deny this country to communism and to suppress the externally stimulated and supported insurgency of the Viet Cong as promptly as possible. Effective performance in this undertaking is the central objective of our policy in South Viet-Nam.

2. The military program in South Viet-Nam has made progress and is sound in principle, though improvements are being energetically sought.

3. Major U.S. assistance in support of this military effort is needed only until the insurgency has been suppressed or until the national security forces of the Government of South Viet-Nam are capable of suppressing it.

Secretary McNamara and General Taylor reported their judgment that the major part of the U.S. military task can be completed by the end of 1965, although there may be a continuing requirement for a limited number of U.S. training personnel. They reported that by the end of this year, the U.S. program for training Vietnamese should have progressed to the point where 1,000 U.S. military personnel assigned to South Viet-Nam can be withdrawn.

4. The political situation in South Viet-Nam remains deeply serious. The United States has made clear its continuing opposition to any repressive actions in South Viet-Nam. While such actions have not yet significantly affected the military effort, they could do so in the future.

5. It remains the policy of the United States, in South Viet-Nam as in other parts of the world, to support the efforts of the people of that country to defeat aggression and to build a peaceful and free society.

You've provided "proof" that the Kennedy Administration looked into a plan to scale down troops in Vietnam when it was believed that the South Vietnamese were capable of taking over the fight by themselves but you've completely ignored what Kennedy subsequently decided after being informed that the South Vietnamese were NOT ready. It's a kind of "selective" memory that liberals have used to try and clean up Kennedy's actual actions so that they match the myth of Kennedy that has been constructed after his death. The facts are that when Kennedy was told that the Diem regime was not ready to go it alone he authorized MORE advisers be sent to Vietnam. I know you JFK lovers don't WANT to believe that but it's what took place.

 

[Sallow]

There is absolutely no historic proof that Kennedy viewed Vietnam in that way. Nor is there any indication that he was planning to scale down our involvement. John Kennedy was actively resisting Communism's spread around the globe.

There IS proof...

NATIONAL SECURITY ACTION MEMORANDUM NO. 263

TO: Secretary of State
Secretary of Defense
Chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff


SUBJECT: South Vietnam

At a meeting on October 5, 1963, the President considered the recommendations contained in the report of Secretary McNamara and General Taylor on their mission to South Vietnam.

The President approved the military recommendations contained in Section I B (1 -3) of the report, but directed that no formal announcement be made of the implementation of plans to withdraw 1,000 U.S. military personnel by the end of 1963.

...

2. The objectives of the United States with respect to the withdrawal of U.S. military personnel remain as stated in the White House statement of October 2, 1963.

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

U.S. POLICY ON VIET-NAM: WHITE HOUSE STATEMENT, OCTOBER 2, 1963

Secretary [of Defense Robert S.] McNamara and General [Maxwell D.] Taylor reported to the President this morning and to the National Security Council this afternoon. Their report included a number of classified findings and recommendations which will be the subject of further review and action. Their basic presentation was endorsed by all members of the Security Council and the following statement of United States policy was approved by the President on the basis of recommendations received from them and from Ambassador [Henry Cabot] Lodge.

1. The security of South Viet-Nam is a major interest of the United States as other free nations. We will adhere to our policy of working with the people and Government of South Viet-Nam to deny this country to communism and to suppress the externally stimulated and supported insurgency of the Viet Cong as promptly as possible. Effective performance in this undertaking is the central objective of our policy in South Viet-Nam.

2. The military program in South Viet-Nam has made progress and is sound in principle, though improvements are being energetically sought.

3. Major U.S. assistance in support of this military effort is needed only until the insurgency has been suppressed or until the national security forces of the Government of South Viet-Nam are capable of suppressing it.

Secretary McNamara and General Taylor reported their judgment that the major part of the U.S. military task can be completed by the end of 1965, although there may be a continuing requirement for a limited number of U.S. training personnel. They reported that by the end of this year, the U.S. program for training Vietnamese should have progressed to the point where 1,000 U.S. military personnel assigned to South Viet-Nam can be withdrawn.

4. The political situation in South Viet-Nam remains deeply serious. The United States has made clear its continuing opposition to any repressive actions in South Viet-Nam. While such actions have not yet significantly affected the military effort, they could do so in the future.

5. It remains the policy of the United States, in South Viet-Nam as in other parts of the world, to support the efforts of the people of that country to defeat aggression and to build a peaceful and free society.

You've provided "proof" that the Kennedy Administration looked into a plan to scale down troops in Vietnam when it was believed that the South Vietnamese were capable of taking over the fight by themselves but you've completely ignored what Kennedy subsequently decided after being informed that the South Vietnamese were NOT ready. It's a kind of "selective" memory that liberals have used to try and clean up Kennedy's actual actions so that they match the myth of Kennedy that has been constructed after his death. The facts are that when Kennedy was told that the Diem regime was not ready to go it alone he authorized MORE advisers be sent to Vietnam. I know you JFK lovers don't WANT to believe that but it's what took place.

This is why you guys aren't taken seriously.

You said there was "no historic" proof then when confronted with "historic" proof, you qualify it.

Seriously.

There's no right answer with you guys.

And you never admit fault.

Being "perfect" makes you a reptile.

 

[bigrebnc1775]

Bill Maher nails it.

Bill Maher on JFK vs Reagan: 'Our Kennedy Is Kennedy' | Video Cafe

Bill Maher had a few words for the Republicans who still "get a lump in their throat" for "their Kennedy" Ronald Reagan during his New Rules segment this Friday night.


MAHER: Now, I don't know if all politics is local, but I do think all politics is tribal and just as some people are dog people and others are cat people, some have a chip in their brain to be Democrats and others to be Republicans. We have Kennedy, you have Reagan. We have marijuana, you have Metamucil.

We want gays in the military. You want them in the airport restroom. [...]

The one reason we looked uglier in the '80's, is because we were uglier. It was when the baby boomers, the generation that was supposed to be different, just gave up and sold out completely. Kennedy's time was the time of "Ask not what your country can do for you." Reagan's was the time of "Greed is good."

JFK was far from perfect, but he was a true wit and a sex machine and he knew how to wear a pair of shades. Reagan was an amiable square in a cowboy hat who had sex with a woman he called mommie.

Kennedy was James Bond. Reagan was Matlock. Love him or hate him, we win. Republicans can call Reagan their Kennedy all they want, but it's like calling Miller High Life 'the champagne of beer. It's why calling someone your Kennedy will never really cut it, because our Kennedy, is Kennedy.

Kennedy would not be a democrat today sorry but this thread is a BIG FAIL.

 

[Amelia]

Actually, I think Kennedy would be a Democrat today. Democrats brought him to power. I don't think he would change his label. The question is -- what might the Democratic party look like had Kennedy survived?

 

[Bfgrn]

There is absolutely no historic proof that Kennedy viewed Vietnam in that way. Nor is there any indication that he was planning to scale down our involvement. John Kennedy was actively resisting Communism's spread around the globe.

There IS proof...

NATIONAL SECURITY ACTION MEMORANDUM NO. 263

TO: Secretary of State
Secretary of Defense
Chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff


SUBJECT: South Vietnam

At a meeting on October 5, 1963, the President considered the recommendations contained in the report of Secretary McNamara and General Taylor on their mission to South Vietnam.

The President approved the military recommendations contained in Section I B (1 -3) of the report, but directed that no formal announcement be made of the implementation of plans to withdraw 1,000 U.S. military personnel by the end of 1963.

...

2. The objectives of the United States with respect to the withdrawal of U.S. military personnel remain as stated in the White House statement of October 2, 1963.

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

U.S. POLICY ON VIET-NAM: WHITE HOUSE STATEMENT, OCTOBER 2, 1963

Secretary [of Defense Robert S.] McNamara and General [Maxwell D.] Taylor reported to the President this morning and to the National Security Council this afternoon. Their report included a number of classified findings and recommendations which will be the subject of further review and action. Their basic presentation was endorsed by all members of the Security Council and the following statement of United States policy was approved by the President on the basis of recommendations received from them and from Ambassador [Henry Cabot] Lodge.

1. The security of South Viet-Nam is a major interest of the United States as other free nations. We will adhere to our policy of working with the people and Government of South Viet-Nam to deny this country to communism and to suppress the externally stimulated and supported insurgency of the Viet Cong as promptly as possible. Effective performance in this undertaking is the central objective of our policy in South Viet-Nam.

2. The military program in South Viet-Nam has made progress and is sound in principle, though improvements are being energetically sought.

3. Major U.S. assistance in support of this military effort is needed only until the insurgency has been suppressed or until the national security forces of the Government of South Viet-Nam are capable of suppressing it.

Secretary McNamara and General Taylor reported their judgment that the major part of the U.S. military task can be completed by the end of 1965, although there may be a continuing requirement for a limited number of U.S. training personnel. They reported that by the end of this year, the U.S. program for training Vietnamese should have progressed to the point where 1,000 U.S. military personnel assigned to South Viet-Nam can be withdrawn.

4. The political situation in South Viet-Nam remains deeply serious. The United States has made clear its continuing opposition to any repressive actions in South Viet-Nam. While such actions have not yet significantly affected the military effort, they could do so in the future.

5. It remains the policy of the United States, in South Viet-Nam as in other parts of the world, to support the efforts of the people of that country to defeat aggression and to build a peaceful and free society.

You've provided "proof" that the Kennedy Administration looked into a plan to scale down troops in Vietnam when it was believed that the South Vietnamese were capable of taking over the fight by themselves but you've completely ignored what Kennedy subsequently decided after being informed that the South Vietnamese were NOT ready. It's a kind of "selective" memory that liberals have used to try and clean up Kennedy's actual actions so that they match the myth of Kennedy that has been constructed after his death. The facts are that when Kennedy was told that the Diem regime was not ready to go it alone he authorized MORE advisers be sent to Vietnam. I know you JFK lovers don't WANT to believe that but it's what took place.

False...

Vietnam was another growing source of tension within the Kennedy Administration. Once again, Washington hard-liners pushed for an escalation of the war, seeking the full-scale military confrontation with the communist enemy that J.F.K. had denied them in Cuba and other cold war battlegrounds. But Kennedy's troop commitment topped out at only 16,000 servicemen. And, as he confided to trusted advisers like McNamara and White House aide O'Donnell, he intended to withdraw completely from Vietnam after he was safely re-elected in 1964. "So we had better make damned sure that I am re-elected," he told O'Donnell.

Fearing a backlash from his generals and the right—under the feisty leadership of Barry Goldwater, his likely opponent in the upcoming presidential race—Kennedy never made his Vietnam plans public. And, in true Kennedy fashion, his statements on the Southeast Asian conflict were a blur of ambiguity. Surrounded by national-security advisers bent on escalation and trying to prevent a public split within his Administration, Kennedy operated on "multiple levels of deception" in his Vietnam decision making, in the words of historian Gareth Porter.

Kennedy never made it to the 1964 election, and since he left behind such a vaporous paper trail, the man who succeeded him, Lyndon Johnson, was able to portray his own deeper Vietnam intervention as a logical progression of J.F.K.'s policies. But McNamara knows the truth. The man who helped L.B.J. widen the war into a colossal tragedy knows Kennedy would have done no such thing. And McNamara acknowledges this, though it highlights his own blame. In the end, McNamara says today, Kennedy would have withdrawn, realizing "that it was South Vietnam's war and the people there had to win it... We couldn't win the war for them."

Read more: Warrior For Peace - The Lessons of J.F.K. - TIME Warrior For Peace - The Lessons of J.F.K. - TIME

And we must face the fact that the United States is neither omnipotent or omniscient - that we are only six percent of the world's population - that we cannot impose our will upon the other ninety-four percent of mankind - that we cannot right every wrong or reverse each adversity - and that therefore there cannot be an American solution to every world problem.”
President John F. Kennedy

 

[OldUSAFSniper]

Actually, I think Kennedy would be a Democrat today. Democrats brought him to power. I don't think he would change his label. The question is -- what might the Democratic party look like had Kennedy survived?

There is a now ex-Democratic Congressman from Oklahoma by the name of Dan Boren. He represented District #1 and every time he ran, he absolutely killed any opponent that thought they would challenge him. Why? Because I knew Dan Boren, I voted for Dan Boren (when I was from that district) and I gave money to Dan Boren's campaign. The man was a Democrat and I am a registered Republican.

But Dan Boren, son of ex-Senator David Boren of Oklahoma, was a blue dog Democrat. When he told a group of us that he would no longer run for Representative, I asked him why? He said that the Democratic party had left him. They had passed Obamacare and was doing things that he no longer could even remotely justify. I made the suggestion that he become Republican. He said that his grandfather and father were Democrats and he was a Democrat. He would be a Democrat until the day he died, even though he no longer knew the Democratic party.

John Kennedy would be a Democrat to this day. In the vein of Dan Boren he would be publicly silent about the disgraceful depths to which that party has sunk, but he would be a Democrat. John Kennedy, like Dan Boren and his father David, would privately shake their heads at what Barry and his cronies are doing, but they would be Democrats. Of that I am sure.

 

[Oldstyle]

There IS proof...

NATIONAL SECURITY ACTION MEMORANDUM NO. 263

TO: Secretary of State
Secretary of Defense
Chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff


SUBJECT: South Vietnam

At a meeting on October 5, 1963, the President considered the recommendations contained in the report of Secretary McNamara and General Taylor on their mission to South Vietnam.

The President approved the military recommendations contained in Section I B (1 -3) of the report, but directed that no formal announcement be made of the implementation of plans to withdraw 1,000 U.S. military personnel by the end of 1963.

...

2. The objectives of the United States with respect to the withdrawal of U.S. military personnel remain as stated in the White House statement of October 2, 1963.

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

U.S. POLICY ON VIET-NAM: WHITE HOUSE STATEMENT, OCTOBER 2, 1963

Secretary [of Defense Robert S.] McNamara and General [Maxwell D.] Taylor reported to the President this morning and to the National Security Council this afternoon. Their report included a number of classified findings and recommendations which will be the subject of further review and action. Their basic presentation was endorsed by all members of the Security Council and the following statement of United States policy was approved by the President on the basis of recommendations received from them and from Ambassador [Henry Cabot] Lodge.

1. The security of South Viet-Nam is a major interest of the United States as other free nations. We will adhere to our policy of working with the people and Government of South Viet-Nam to deny this country to communism and to suppress the externally stimulated and supported insurgency of the Viet Cong as promptly as possible. Effective performance in this undertaking is the central objective of our policy in South Viet-Nam.

2. The military program in South Viet-Nam has made progress and is sound in principle, though improvements are being energetically sought.

3. Major U.S. assistance in support of this military effort is needed only until the insurgency has been suppressed or until the national security forces of the Government of South Viet-Nam are capable of suppressing it.

Secretary McNamara and General Taylor reported their judgment that the major part of the U.S. military task can be completed by the end of 1965, although there may be a continuing requirement for a limited number of U.S. training personnel. They reported that by the end of this year, the U.S. program for training Vietnamese should have progressed to the point where 1,000 U.S. military personnel assigned to South Viet-Nam can be withdrawn.

4. The political situation in South Viet-Nam remains deeply serious. The United States has made clear its continuing opposition to any repressive actions in South Viet-Nam. While such actions have not yet significantly affected the military effort, they could do so in the future.

5. It remains the policy of the United States, in South Viet-Nam as in other parts of the world, to support the efforts of the people of that country to defeat aggression and to build a peaceful and free society.

You've provided "proof" that the Kennedy Administration looked into a plan to scale down troops in Vietnam when it was believed that the South Vietnamese were capable of taking over the fight by themselves but you've completely ignored what Kennedy subsequently decided after being informed that the South Vietnamese were NOT ready. It's a kind of "selective" memory that liberals have used to try and clean up Kennedy's actual actions so that they match the myth of Kennedy that has been constructed after his death. The facts are that when Kennedy was told that the Diem regime was not ready to go it alone he authorized MORE advisers be sent to Vietnam. I know you JFK lovers don't WANT to believe that but it's what took place.

This is why you guys aren't taken seriously.

You said there was "no historic" proof then when confronted with "historic" proof, you qualify it.

Seriously.

There's no right answer with you guys.

And you never admit fault.

Being "perfect" makes you a reptile.

What can I say, Sallow...I'm a history major. We're taught to look at source material in context. It doesn't always mean what you THINK it does. In this case you've cherry picked a report from a time when the Kennedy Administration did believe reports that the South Vietnamese were capable of handling the war against the North on their own. Subsequent to that however they realized that was not the case and that a withdraw from South Vietnam would almost certainly result in a takeover by the communists. JFK was adamant that he would not allow that to happen...a position that he made clear numerous times FOLLOWING when what you provided came out.

Governments conduct studies and draw up contingency plans for many things. Some of them come to fruition. Most however do not. Your plan is one of the ones that didn't. It was wishful thinking on Kennedy's part and he very quickly determined that it wasn't something he could do.

 

[Bfgrn]

You've provided "proof" that the Kennedy Administration looked into a plan to scale down troops in Vietnam when it was believed that the South Vietnamese were capable of taking over the fight by themselves but you've completely ignored what Kennedy subsequently decided after being informed that the South Vietnamese were NOT ready. It's a kind of "selective" memory that liberals have used to try and clean up Kennedy's actual actions so that they match the myth of Kennedy that has been constructed after his death. The facts are that when Kennedy was told that the Diem regime was not ready to go it alone he authorized MORE advisers be sent to Vietnam. I know you JFK lovers don't WANT to believe that but it's what took place.

This is why you guys aren't taken seriously.

You said there was "no historic" proof then when confronted with "historic" proof, you qualify it.

Seriously.

There's no right answer with you guys.

And you never admit fault.

Being "perfect" makes you a reptile.

What can I say, Sallow...I'm a history major. We're taught to look at source material in context. It doesn't always mean what you THINK it does. In this case you've cherry picked a report from a time when the Kennedy Administration did believe reports that the South Vietnamese were capable of handling the war against the North on their own. Subsequent to that however they realized that was not the case and that a withdraw from South Vietnam would almost certainly result in a takeover by the communists. JFK was adamant that he would not allow that to happen...a position that he made clear numerous times FOLLOWING when what you provided came out.

Governments conduct studies and draw up contingency plans for many things. Some of them come to fruition. Most however do not. Your plan is one of the ones that didn't. It was wishful thinking on Kennedy's part and he very quickly determined that it wasn't something he could do.

JFK made it clear to his advisers and his Secretary of Defense that he planned to withdraw from Vietnam by the end of 1965. He was also not going to make that plan public before he secured a second term. He was not going to give the hawks in the GOP anything to run against.

If you are a student of history, then you would know that JFK faced 3 crisis where he was urged by the Pentagon, the Chiefs of Staff, many of his own advisers and members of Congress to use military action...on ALL THREE occasions he refused.

Bay of Pigs...REFUSED
Berlin Wall...REFUSED
Cuban Missile Crisis...REFUSED

There is nothing in JFK's DNA that would lead anyone to conclude that he would have Americanized the Vietnam war.

His solution to Cuba? He wanted to normalize relations with that country.

In the final months of his Administration, J.F.K. even opened a secret peace channel to Castro, led by U.N. diplomat William Attwood. "He would have recognized Cuba," Milt Ebbins, a Hollywood crony of J.F.K.'s, says today. "He told me that if we recognize Cuba, they'll buy our refrigerators and toasters, and they'll end up kicking Castro out."

Kennedy often said he wanted his epitaph to be "He kept the peace." Even Khrushchev and Castro, Kennedy's toughest foreign adversaries, came to appreciate J.F.K.'s commitment to that goal. The roly-poly Soviet leader, clowning and growling, had thrown the young President off his game when they met at the Vienna summit in 1961. But after weathering storms like the Cuban missile crisis, the two leaders had settled into a mutually respectful quest for détente. When Khrushchev got the news from Dallas in November 1963, he broke down and sobbed in the Kremlin, unable to perform his duties for days. Despite his youth, Kennedy was a "real statesman," Khrushchev later wrote in his memoir, after he was pushed from power less than a year following J.F.K.'s death. If Kennedy had lived, he wrote, the two men could have brought peace to the world.

Read more: Warrior For Peace - The Lessons of J.F.K. - TIME Warrior For Peace - The Lessons of J.F.K. - TIME

 

[Oldstyle]

This is why you guys aren't taken seriously.

You said there was "no historic" proof then when confronted with "historic" proof, you qualify it.

Seriously.

There's no right answer with you guys.

And you never admit fault.

Being "perfect" makes you a reptile.

What can I say, Sallow...I'm a history major. We're taught to look at source material in context. It doesn't always mean what you THINK it does. In this case you've cherry picked a report from a time when the Kennedy Administration did believe reports that the South Vietnamese were capable of handling the war against the North on their own. Subsequent to that however they realized that was not the case and that a withdraw from South Vietnam would almost certainly result in a takeover by the communists. JFK was adamant that he would not allow that to happen...a position that he made clear numerous times FOLLOWING when what you provided came out.

Governments conduct studies and draw up contingency plans for many things. Some of them come to fruition. Most however do not. Your plan is one of the ones that didn't. It was wishful thinking on Kennedy's part and he very quickly determined that it wasn't something he could do.

JFK made it clear to his advisers and his Secretary of Defense that he planned to withdraw from Vietnam by the end of 1965. He was also not going to make that plan public before he secured a second term. He was not going to give the hawks in the GOP anything to run against.

If you are a student of history, then you would know that JFK faced 3 crisis where he was urged by the Pentagon, the Chiefs of Staff, many of his own advisers and members of Congress to use military action...on ALL THREE occasions he refused.

Bay of Pigs...REFUSED
Berlin Wall...REFUSED
Cuban Missile Crisis...REFUSED

There is nothing in JFK's DNA that would lead anyone to conclude that he would have Americanized the Vietnam war.

His solution to Cuba? He wanted to normalize relations with that country.

In the final months of his Administration, J.F.K. even opened a secret peace channel to Castro, led by U.N. diplomat William Attwood. "He would have recognized Cuba," Milt Ebbins, a Hollywood crony of J.F.K.'s, says today. "He told me that if we recognize Cuba, they'll buy our refrigerators and toasters, and they'll end up kicking Castro out."

Kennedy often said he wanted his epitaph to be "He kept the peace." Even Khrushchev and Castro, Kennedy's toughest foreign adversaries, came to appreciate J.F.K.'s commitment to that goal. The roly-poly Soviet leader, clowning and growling, had thrown the young President off his game when they met at the Vienna summit in 1961. But after weathering storms like the Cuban missile crisis, the two leaders had settled into a mutually respectful quest for détente. When Khrushchev got the news from Dallas in November 1963, he broke down and sobbed in the Kremlin, unable to perform his duties for days. Despite his youth, Kennedy was a "real statesman," Khrushchev later wrote in his memoir, after he was pushed from power less than a year following J.F.K.'s death. If Kennedy had lived, he wrote, the two men could have brought peace to the world.

Read more: Warrior For Peace - The Lessons of J.F.K. - TIME Warrior For Peace - The Lessons of J.F.K. - TIME

I'm sorry, Bfgrn but your reciting fifty years of attempts by liberals to rehabilitate the Kennedy persona into what they WANT him to be doesn't change what he WAS. Kennedy was not a dove. That was an armed embargo of Soviet ships on the high seas during the Cuban missile crisis. If Kennedy was such a "Warrior for Peace" then kindly explain why he put Jupiter missiles in Turkey prompting the Cuban missile crisis in the first place?

 

[Bfgrn]

What can I say, Sallow...I'm a history major. We're taught to look at source material in context. It doesn't always mean what you THINK it does. In this case you've cherry picked a report from a time when the Kennedy Administration did believe reports that the South Vietnamese were capable of handling the war against the North on their own. Subsequent to that however they realized that was not the case and that a withdraw from South Vietnam would almost certainly result in a takeover by the communists. JFK was adamant that he would not allow that to happen...a position that he made clear numerous times FOLLOWING when what you provided came out.

Governments conduct studies and draw up contingency plans for many things. Some of them come to fruition. Most however do not. Your plan is one of the ones that didn't. It was wishful thinking on Kennedy's part and he very quickly determined that it wasn't something he could do.

JFK made it clear to his advisers and his Secretary of Defense that he planned to withdraw from Vietnam by the end of 1965. He was also not going to make that plan public before he secured a second term. He was not going to give the hawks in the GOP anything to run against.

If you are a student of history, then you would know that JFK faced 3 crisis where he was urged by the Pentagon, the Chiefs of Staff, many of his own advisers and members of Congress to use military action...on ALL THREE occasions he refused.

Bay of Pigs...REFUSED
Berlin Wall...REFUSED
Cuban Missile Crisis...REFUSED

There is nothing in JFK's DNA that would lead anyone to conclude that he would have Americanized the Vietnam war.

His solution to Cuba? He wanted to normalize relations with that country.

In the final months of his Administration, J.F.K. even opened a secret peace channel to Castro, led by U.N. diplomat William Attwood. "He would have recognized Cuba," Milt Ebbins, a Hollywood crony of J.F.K.'s, says today. "He told me that if we recognize Cuba, they'll buy our refrigerators and toasters, and they'll end up kicking Castro out."

Kennedy often said he wanted his epitaph to be "He kept the peace." Even Khrushchev and Castro, Kennedy's toughest foreign adversaries, came to appreciate J.F.K.'s commitment to that goal. The roly-poly Soviet leader, clowning and growling, had thrown the young President off his game when they met at the Vienna summit in 1961. But after weathering storms like the Cuban missile crisis, the two leaders had settled into a mutually respectful quest for détente. When Khrushchev got the news from Dallas in November 1963, he broke down and sobbed in the Kremlin, unable to perform his duties for days. Despite his youth, Kennedy was a "real statesman," Khrushchev later wrote in his memoir, after he was pushed from power less than a year following J.F.K.'s death. If Kennedy had lived, he wrote, the two men could have brought peace to the world.

Read more: Warrior For Peace - The Lessons of J.F.K. - TIME Warrior For Peace - The Lessons of J.F.K. - TIME

I'm sorry, Bfgrn but your reciting fifty years of attempts by liberals to rehabilitate the Kennedy persona into what they WANT him to be doesn't change what he WAS. Kennedy was not a dove. That was an armed embargo of Soviet ships on the high seas during the Cuban missile crisis. If Kennedy was such a "Warrior for Peace" then kindly explain why he put Jupiter missiles in Turkey prompting the Cuban missile crisis in the first place?

AGAIN, you are ignoring 'history' and relying on emotions.

Kennedy ordered their removal BEFORE the Cuban Missile Crisis.

President Kennedy had been anxious to remove those missiles from Italy and Turkey for a long period of time. He had ordered their removal some time ago, and it was our judgment that, within a short time after this crisis was over, those missiles would be gone.

In October 1959, the location of the third and final Jupiter MRBM squadron was settled when a government-to-government agreement was signed with Turkey.

Do you know history? WHO was President in 1959?

 

[Oldstyle]

JFK made it clear to his advisers and his Secretary of Defense that he planned to withdraw from Vietnam by the end of 1965. He was also not going to make that plan public before he secured a second term. He was not going to give the hawks in the GOP anything to run against.

If you are a student of history, then you would know that JFK faced 3 crisis where he was urged by the Pentagon, the Chiefs of Staff, many of his own advisers and members of Congress to use military action...on ALL THREE occasions he refused.

Bay of Pigs...REFUSED
Berlin Wall...REFUSED
Cuban Missile Crisis...REFUSED

There is nothing in JFK's DNA that would lead anyone to conclude that he would have Americanized the Vietnam war.

His solution to Cuba? He wanted to normalize relations with that country.

In the final months of his Administration, J.F.K. even opened a secret peace channel to Castro, led by U.N. diplomat William Attwood. "He would have recognized Cuba," Milt Ebbins, a Hollywood crony of J.F.K.'s, says today. "He told me that if we recognize Cuba, they'll buy our refrigerators and toasters, and they'll end up kicking Castro out."

Kennedy often said he wanted his epitaph to be "He kept the peace." Even Khrushchev and Castro, Kennedy's toughest foreign adversaries, came to appreciate J.F.K.'s commitment to that goal. The roly-poly Soviet leader, clowning and growling, had thrown the young President off his game when they met at the Vienna summit in 1961. But after weathering storms like the Cuban missile crisis, the two leaders had settled into a mutually respectful quest for détente. When Khrushchev got the news from Dallas in November 1963, he broke down and sobbed in the Kremlin, unable to perform his duties for days. Despite his youth, Kennedy was a "real statesman," Khrushchev later wrote in his memoir, after he was pushed from power less than a year following J.F.K.'s death. If Kennedy had lived, he wrote, the two men could have brought peace to the world.

Read more: Warrior For Peace - The Lessons of J.F.K. - TIME Warrior For Peace - The Lessons of J.F.K. - TIME

I'm sorry, Bfgrn but your reciting fifty years of attempts by liberals to rehabilitate the Kennedy persona into what they WANT him to be doesn't change what he WAS. Kennedy was not a dove. That was an armed embargo of Soviet ships on the high seas during the Cuban missile crisis. If Kennedy was such a "Warrior for Peace" then kindly explain why he put Jupiter missiles in Turkey prompting the Cuban missile crisis in the first place?

AGAIN, you are ignoring 'history' and relying on emotions.

Kennedy ordered their removal BEFORE the Cuban Missile Crisis.

President Kennedy had been anxious to remove those missiles from Italy and Turkey for a long period of time. He had ordered their removal some time ago, and it was our judgment that, within a short time after this crisis was over, those missiles would be gone.

In October 1959, the location of the third and final Jupiter MRBM squadron was settled when a government-to-government agreement was signed with Turkey.

Do you know history? WHO was President in 1959?

Do you not know that part of the resolution of the Cuban missile crisis was our agreement to remove Jupiter missiles from Turkey? Do you also not know that it was our attempt at an armed coup to remove Castro that took place under Kennedy that led Castro to ask the Soviets to place nuclear missiles in Cuba in the first place?

 

[Oldstyle]

As for your claim that Kennedy had wanted to remove the Jupiter missiles from Turkey "for a long time"? What you don't seem to understand is how THAT part of the resolution of the Cuban missile crisis was only agreed to by Kennedy if it was done in secret. Removing the Jupiter missiles was what we did in return for the Soviets removing nukes from Cuba but Kennedy didn't want to it to be seen as a quid pro quo deal with the Soviets. The notion that Kennedy had always wanted the Jupiter missiles removed from Turkey was simply the spin his Administration put on that secret deal.

 

[Bfgrn]

I'm sorry, Bfgrn but your reciting fifty years of attempts by liberals to rehabilitate the Kennedy persona into what they WANT him to be doesn't change what he WAS. Kennedy was not a dove. That was an armed embargo of Soviet ships on the high seas during the Cuban missile crisis. If Kennedy was such a "Warrior for Peace" then kindly explain why he put Jupiter missiles in Turkey prompting the Cuban missile crisis in the first place?

AGAIN, you are ignoring 'history' and relying on emotions.

Kennedy ordered their removal BEFORE the Cuban Missile Crisis.

President Kennedy had been anxious to remove those missiles from Italy and Turkey for a long period of time. He had ordered their removal some time ago, and it was our judgment that, within a short time after this crisis was over, those missiles would be gone.

In October 1959, the location of the third and final Jupiter MRBM squadron was settled when a government-to-government agreement was signed with Turkey.

Do you know history? WHO was President in 1959?

Do you not know that part of the resolution of the Cuban missile crisis was our agreement to remove Jupiter missiles from Turkey? Do you also not know that it was our attempt at an armed coup to remove Castro that took place under Kennedy that led Castro to ask the Soviets to place nuclear missiles in Cuba in the first place?

I am completely aware that removal of the missiles in Turkey was part of the deal, but under the agreement that it was not to be made public. Kennedy was pissed that those missiles led to the crisis.

AGAIN, the Bay of Pigs invasion was planned under Eisenhower. Kennedy told Dulles and the CIA that he wouldn't provide an invasion force. We now know through declassified documents that the CIA KNEW the invasion stood no chance, and they lied to the President.

It led to Dulles and Bissell being fired, and JFK threatened to to "shatter [the agency] into a thousand pieces and scatter it to the winds."

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Washington's national-security apparatus had decided there was no living with Castro. During the final months of the Eisenhower Administration, the CIA started planning an invasion of the island, recruiting Cuban exiles who had fled the new regime. Agency officials assured the young President who inherited the invasion plan that it was a "slam dunk," in the words of a future CIA director contemplating another ill-fated U.S. invasion. J.F.K. had deep misgivings, but unwilling to overrule his senior intelligence officials so early in his Administration, he went fatefully ahead with the plan. The doomed Bay of Pigs invasion in April 1961 became the Kennedy Administration's first great trauma.

We now know—from the CIA's internal history of the Bay of Pigs, which was declassified in 2005—that agency officials realized their motley crew of invaders had no chance of victory unless they were reinforced by the U.S. military. But Allen Dulles and Richard Bissell, the top CIA officials, never disclosed this to J.F.K. They clearly thought the young President would cave in the heat of battle, that he would be forced to send in the Marines and Air Force to rescue the beleaguered exiles brigade after it was pinned down on the beaches by Castro's forces. But Kennedy—who was concerned about aggravating the U.S. image in Latin America as a Yanqui bully and also feared a Soviet countermove against West Berlin—had warned agency officials that he would not fully intervene. As the invasion quickly bogged down at the swampy landing site, J.F.K. stunned Dulles and Bissell by standing his ground and refusing to escalate the assault.

From that point on, the Kennedy presidency became a government at war with itself.

A bitter Dulles thought Kennedy had suffered a failure of nerve and observed that he was "surrounded by doubting Thomases and admirers of Castro." The Joint Chiefs also muttered darkly about the new President. General Lyman Lemnitzer, Chairman of the Joint Chiefs, said "pulling out the rug [on the invaders ]was... absolutely reprehensible, almost criminal." Admiral Arleigh Burke, the Navy chief, later fumed, "Mr. Kennedy was a very bad President... He permitted himself to jeopardize the nation."

Kennedy was equally outraged at his national-security advisers. While he famously took responsibility for the Bay of Pigs debacle in public, privately he lashed out at the Joint Chiefs and especially at the cia, threatening to "shatter [the agency] into a thousand pieces and scatter it to the winds." J.F.K. never followed through on this threat, but he did eventually fire Dulles, despite his stature as a legendary spymaster, as well as Bissell.

Weeks after the Cuba fiasco, J.F.K. was still steaming, recalled his friend Assistant Navy Secretary Paul (Red) Fay years later in his memoir, The Pleasure of His Company. "Nobody is going to force me to do anything I don't think is in the best interest of the country," the President told his friend, over a game of checkers at the Kennedy-family compound in Hyannis Port, Mass. "We're not going to plunge into an irresponsible action just because a fanatical fringe in this country puts so-called national pride above national reason. Do you think I'm going to carry on my conscience the responsibility for the wanton maiming and killing of children like our children we saw [playing] here this evening? Do you think I'm going to cause a nuclear exchange—for what? Because I was forced into doing something that I didn't think was proper and right? Well, if you or anybody else thinks I am, he's crazy."

This would become the major theme of the Kennedy presidency—J.F.K.'s strenuous efforts to keep the country at peace in the face of equally ardent pressures from Washington's warrior caste to go to war.

Read more: Warrior For Peace - The Lessons of J.F.K. - TIME Warrior For Peace - The Lessons of J.F.K. - TIME

 

[Oldstyle]

AGAIN, you are ignoring 'history' and relying on emotions.

Kennedy ordered their removal BEFORE the Cuban Missile Crisis.

President Kennedy had been anxious to remove those missiles from Italy and Turkey for a long period of time. He had ordered their removal some time ago, and it was our judgment that, within a short time after this crisis was over, those missiles would be gone.

In October 1959, the location of the third and final Jupiter MRBM squadron was settled when a government-to-government agreement was signed with Turkey.

Do you know history? WHO was President in 1959?

Do you not know that part of the resolution of the Cuban missile crisis was our agreement to remove Jupiter missiles from Turkey? Do you also not know that it was our attempt at an armed coup to remove Castro that took place under Kennedy that led Castro to ask the Soviets to place nuclear missiles in Cuba in the first place?

I am completely aware that removal of the missiles in Turkey was part of the deal, but under the agreement that it was not to be made public. Kennedy was pissed that those missiles led to the crisis.

AGAIN, the Bay of Pigs invasion was planned under Eisenhower. Kennedy told Dulles and the CIA that he wouldn't provide an invasion force. We now know through declassified documents that the CIA KNEW the invasion stood no chance, and they lied to the President.

It led to Dulles and Bissell being fired, and JFK threatened to to "shatter [the agency] into a thousand pieces and scatter it to the winds."

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Washington's national-security apparatus had decided there was no living with Castro. During the final months of the Eisenhower Administration, the CIA started planning an invasion of the island, recruiting Cuban exiles who had fled the new regime. Agency officials assured the young President who inherited the invasion plan that it was a "slam dunk," in the words of a future CIA director contemplating another ill-fated U.S. invasion. J.F.K. had deep misgivings, but unwilling to overrule his senior intelligence officials so early in his Administration, he went fatefully ahead with the plan. The doomed Bay of Pigs invasion in April 1961 became the Kennedy Administration's first great trauma.

We now know—from the CIA's internal history of the Bay of Pigs, which was declassified in 2005—that agency officials realized their motley crew of invaders had no chance of victory unless they were reinforced by the U.S. military. But Allen Dulles and Richard Bissell, the top CIA officials, never disclosed this to J.F.K. They clearly thought the young President would cave in the heat of battle, that he would be forced to send in the Marines and Air Force to rescue the beleaguered exiles brigade after it was pinned down on the beaches by Castro's forces. But Kennedy—who was concerned about aggravating the U.S. image in Latin America as a Yanqui bully and also feared a Soviet countermove against West Berlin—had warned agency officials that he would not fully intervene. As the invasion quickly bogged down at the swampy landing site, J.F.K. stunned Dulles and Bissell by standing his ground and refusing to escalate the assault.

From that point on, the Kennedy presidency became a government at war with itself.

A bitter Dulles thought Kennedy had suffered a failure of nerve and observed that he was "surrounded by doubting Thomases and admirers of Castro." The Joint Chiefs also muttered darkly about the new President. General Lyman Lemnitzer, Chairman of the Joint Chiefs, said "pulling out the rug [on the invaders ]was... absolutely reprehensible, almost criminal." Admiral Arleigh Burke, the Navy chief, later fumed, "Mr. Kennedy was a very bad President... He permitted himself to jeopardize the nation."

Kennedy was equally outraged at his national-security advisers. While he famously took responsibility for the Bay of Pigs debacle in public, privately he lashed out at the Joint Chiefs and especially at the cia, threatening to "shatter [the agency] into a thousand pieces and scatter it to the winds." J.F.K. never followed through on this threat, but he did eventually fire Dulles, despite his stature as a legendary spymaster, as well as Bissell.

Weeks after the Cuba fiasco, J.F.K. was still steaming, recalled his friend Assistant Navy Secretary Paul (Red) Fay years later in his memoir, The Pleasure of His Company. "Nobody is going to force me to do anything I don't think is in the best interest of the country," the President told his friend, over a game of checkers at the Kennedy-family compound in Hyannis Port, Mass. "We're not going to plunge into an irresponsible action just because a fanatical fringe in this country puts so-called national pride above national reason. Do you think I'm going to carry on my conscience the responsibility for the wanton maiming and killing of children like our children we saw [playing] here this evening? Do you think I'm going to cause a nuclear exchange—for what? Because I was forced into doing something that I didn't think was proper and right? Well, if you or anybody else thinks I am, he's crazy."

This would become the major theme of the Kennedy presidency—J.F.K.'s strenuous efforts to keep the country at peace in the face of equally ardent pressures from Washington's warrior caste to go to war.

Read more: Warrior For Peace - The Lessons of J.F.K. - TIME Warrior For Peace - The Lessons of J.F.K. - TIME

Once again you are repeating the "narrative" that has been constructed since JFK's death by his family and supporters that contradicts what Kennedy actually DID while President. The truth is this...JFK inherited a plan hatched by the CIA and approved by Eisenhower to back the invasion of Cuba by a force of Cuban nationals with air support by the US that would take out Cuba's air force. Kennedy however, made the decision to down size that US air support sending only 8 bombers to attack Cuban airfields instead of the 16 assigned to that task in the original plan, saying that he wanted the US involvement to be as low key as possible. The US bombers failed to take out the Cuban air force which then pinned down the invading force on the beaches and swamps of the Bay of Pigs where they subsequently surrendered two days later. It's not that Kennedy didn't approve military action against Cuba...it's that he didn't approve enough of it to do the job as planned and HE is in large part responsible for the failure of the invasion.

 

[Bfgrn]

Do you not know that part of the resolution of the Cuban missile crisis was our agreement to remove Jupiter missiles from Turkey? Do you also not know that it was our attempt at an armed coup to remove Castro that took place under Kennedy that led Castro to ask the Soviets to place nuclear missiles in Cuba in the first place?

I am completely aware that removal of the missiles in Turkey was part of the deal, but under the agreement that it was not to be made public. Kennedy was pissed that those missiles led to the crisis.

AGAIN, the Bay of Pigs invasion was planned under Eisenhower. Kennedy told Dulles and the CIA that he wouldn't provide an invasion force. We now know through declassified documents that the CIA KNEW the invasion stood no chance, and they lied to the President.

It led to Dulles and Bissell being fired, and JFK threatened to to "shatter [the agency] into a thousand pieces and scatter it to the winds."

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Washington's national-security apparatus had decided there was no living with Castro. During the final months of the Eisenhower Administration, the CIA started planning an invasion of the island, recruiting Cuban exiles who had fled the new regime. Agency officials assured the young President who inherited the invasion plan that it was a "slam dunk," in the words of a future CIA director contemplating another ill-fated U.S. invasion. J.F.K. had deep misgivings, but unwilling to overrule his senior intelligence officials so early in his Administration, he went fatefully ahead with the plan. The doomed Bay of Pigs invasion in April 1961 became the Kennedy Administration's first great trauma.

We now know—from the CIA's internal history of the Bay of Pigs, which was declassified in 2005—that agency officials realized their motley crew of invaders had no chance of victory unless they were reinforced by the U.S. military. But Allen Dulles and Richard Bissell, the top CIA officials, never disclosed this to J.F.K. They clearly thought the young President would cave in the heat of battle, that he would be forced to send in the Marines and Air Force to rescue the beleaguered exiles brigade after it was pinned down on the beaches by Castro's forces. But Kennedy—who was concerned about aggravating the U.S. image in Latin America as a Yanqui bully and also feared a Soviet countermove against West Berlin—had warned agency officials that he would not fully intervene. As the invasion quickly bogged down at the swampy landing site, J.F.K. stunned Dulles and Bissell by standing his ground and refusing to escalate the assault.

From that point on, the Kennedy presidency became a government at war with itself.

A bitter Dulles thought Kennedy had suffered a failure of nerve and observed that he was "surrounded by doubting Thomases and admirers of Castro." The Joint Chiefs also muttered darkly about the new President. General Lyman Lemnitzer, Chairman of the Joint Chiefs, said "pulling out the rug [on the invaders ]was... absolutely reprehensible, almost criminal." Admiral Arleigh Burke, the Navy chief, later fumed, "Mr. Kennedy was a very bad President... He permitted himself to jeopardize the nation."

Kennedy was equally outraged at his national-security advisers. While he famously took responsibility for the Bay of Pigs debacle in public, privately he lashed out at the Joint Chiefs and especially at the cia, threatening to "shatter [the agency] into a thousand pieces and scatter it to the winds." J.F.K. never followed through on this threat, but he did eventually fire Dulles, despite his stature as a legendary spymaster, as well as Bissell.

Weeks after the Cuba fiasco, J.F.K. was still steaming, recalled his friend Assistant Navy Secretary Paul (Red) Fay years later in his memoir, The Pleasure of His Company. "Nobody is going to force me to do anything I don't think is in the best interest of the country," the President told his friend, over a game of checkers at the Kennedy-family compound in Hyannis Port, Mass. "We're not going to plunge into an irresponsible action just because a fanatical fringe in this country puts so-called national pride above national reason. Do you think I'm going to carry on my conscience the responsibility for the wanton maiming and killing of children like our children we saw [playing] here this evening? Do you think I'm going to cause a nuclear exchange—for what? Because I was forced into doing something that I didn't think was proper and right? Well, if you or anybody else thinks I am, he's crazy."

This would become the major theme of the Kennedy presidency—J.F.K.'s strenuous efforts to keep the country at peace in the face of equally ardent pressures from Washington's warrior caste to go to war.

Read more: Warrior For Peace - The Lessons of J.F.K. - TIME Warrior For Peace - The Lessons of J.F.K. - TIME

Once again you are repeating the "narrative" that has been constructed since JFK's death by his family and supporters that contradicts what Kennedy actually DID while President. The truth is this...JFK inherited a plan hatched by the CIA and approved by Eisenhower to back the invasion of Cuba by a force of Cuban nationals with air support by the US that would take out Cuba's air force. Kennedy however, made the decision to down size that US air support sending only 8 bombers to attack Cuban airfields instead of the 16 assigned to that task in the original plan, saying that he wanted the US involvement to be as low key as possible. The US bombers failed to take out the Cuban air force which then pinned down the invading force on the beaches and swamps of the Bay of Pigs where they subsequently surrendered two days later. It's not that Kennedy didn't approve military action against Cuba...it's that he didn't approve enough of it to do the job as planned and HE is in large part responsible for the failure of the invasion.

"Once again you are repeating the "narrative" that has been constructed since JFK's death"

It is called FACTS...

We now know—from the CIA's internal history of the Bay of Pigs, which was declassified in 2005—that agency officials realized their motley crew of invaders had no chance of victory unless they were reinforced by the U.S. military. But Allen Dulles and Richard Bissell, the top CIA officials, never disclosed this to J.F.K.

It is just more proof JFK was not a 'hawk'

"War will exist until that distant day when the conscientious objector enjoys the same reputation and prestige that the warrior does today."
John F. Kennedy

 

[Oldstyle]

I am completely aware that removal of the missiles in Turkey was part of the deal, but under the agreement that it was not to be made public. Kennedy was pissed that those missiles led to the crisis.

AGAIN, the Bay of Pigs invasion was planned under Eisenhower. Kennedy told Dulles and the CIA that he wouldn't provide an invasion force. We now know through declassified documents that the CIA KNEW the invasion stood no chance, and they lied to the President.

It led to Dulles and Bissell being fired, and JFK threatened to to "shatter [the agency] into a thousand pieces and scatter it to the winds."

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Washington's national-security apparatus had decided there was no living with Castro. During the final months of the Eisenhower Administration, the CIA started planning an invasion of the island, recruiting Cuban exiles who had fled the new regime. Agency officials assured the young President who inherited the invasion plan that it was a "slam dunk," in the words of a future CIA director contemplating another ill-fated U.S. invasion. J.F.K. had deep misgivings, but unwilling to overrule his senior intelligence officials so early in his Administration, he went fatefully ahead with the plan. The doomed Bay of Pigs invasion in April 1961 became the Kennedy Administration's first great trauma.

We now know—from the CIA's internal history of the Bay of Pigs, which was declassified in 2005—that agency officials realized their motley crew of invaders had no chance of victory unless they were reinforced by the U.S. military. But Allen Dulles and Richard Bissell, the top CIA officials, never disclosed this to J.F.K. They clearly thought the young President would cave in the heat of battle, that he would be forced to send in the Marines and Air Force to rescue the beleaguered exiles brigade after it was pinned down on the beaches by Castro's forces. But Kennedy—who was concerned about aggravating the U.S. image in Latin America as a Yanqui bully and also feared a Soviet countermove against West Berlin—had warned agency officials that he would not fully intervene. As the invasion quickly bogged down at the swampy landing site, J.F.K. stunned Dulles and Bissell by standing his ground and refusing to escalate the assault.

From that point on, the Kennedy presidency became a government at war with itself.

A bitter Dulles thought Kennedy had suffered a failure of nerve and observed that he was "surrounded by doubting Thomases and admirers of Castro." The Joint Chiefs also muttered darkly about the new President. General Lyman Lemnitzer, Chairman of the Joint Chiefs, said "pulling out the rug [on the invaders ]was... absolutely reprehensible, almost criminal." Admiral Arleigh Burke, the Navy chief, later fumed, "Mr. Kennedy was a very bad President... He permitted himself to jeopardize the nation."

Kennedy was equally outraged at his national-security advisers. While he famously took responsibility for the Bay of Pigs debacle in public, privately he lashed out at the Joint Chiefs and especially at the cia, threatening to "shatter [the agency] into a thousand pieces and scatter it to the winds." J.F.K. never followed through on this threat, but he did eventually fire Dulles, despite his stature as a legendary spymaster, as well as Bissell.

Weeks after the Cuba fiasco, J.F.K. was still steaming, recalled his friend Assistant Navy Secretary Paul (Red) Fay years later in his memoir, The Pleasure of His Company. "Nobody is going to force me to do anything I don't think is in the best interest of the country," the President told his friend, over a game of checkers at the Kennedy-family compound in Hyannis Port, Mass. "We're not going to plunge into an irresponsible action just because a fanatical fringe in this country puts so-called national pride above national reason. Do you think I'm going to carry on my conscience the responsibility for the wanton maiming and killing of children like our children we saw [playing] here this evening? Do you think I'm going to cause a nuclear exchange—for what? Because I was forced into doing something that I didn't think was proper and right? Well, if you or anybody else thinks I am, he's crazy."

This would become the major theme of the Kennedy presidency—J.F.K.'s strenuous efforts to keep the country at peace in the face of equally ardent pressures from Washington's warrior caste to go to war.

Read more: Warrior For Peace - The Lessons of J.F.K. - TIME Warrior For Peace - The Lessons of J.F.K. - TIME

Once again you are repeating the "narrative" that has been constructed since JFK's death by his family and supporters that contradicts what Kennedy actually DID while President. The truth is this...JFK inherited a plan hatched by the CIA and approved by Eisenhower to back the invasion of Cuba by a force of Cuban nationals with air support by the US that would take out Cuba's air force. Kennedy however, made the decision to down size that US air support sending only 8 bombers to attack Cuban airfields instead of the 16 assigned to that task in the original plan, saying that he wanted the US involvement to be as low key as possible. The US bombers failed to take out the Cuban air force which then pinned down the invading force on the beaches and swamps of the Bay of Pigs where they subsequently surrendered two days later. It's not that Kennedy didn't approve military action against Cuba...it's that he didn't approve enough of it to do the job as planned and HE is in large part responsible for the failure of the invasion.

"Once again you are repeating the "narrative" that has been constructed since JFK's death"

It is called FACTS...

We now know—from the CIA's internal history of the Bay of Pigs, which was declassified in 2005—that agency officials realized their motley crew of invaders had no chance of victory unless they were reinforced by the U.S. military. But Allen Dulles and Richard Bissell, the top CIA officials, never disclosed this to J.F.K.

It is just more proof JFK was not a 'hawk'

"War will exist until that distant day when the conscientious objector enjoys the same reputation and prestige that the warrior does today."
John F. Kennedy

Since it was Kennedy's last minute call to send only half the bombers that the planners had designated to take out Cuban fighters how can you make the claim that Dulles and Bissell never "disclosed" to Kennedy that the Anti Castro forces had no chance of victory unless they were reinforced by the US military? They WERE in fact reinforced by the US military but under Kennedy's orders that support was halved at the last moment which resulted in an inability to destroy Castro's fighters. Then Kennedy withdrew the support of the eight US bombers and left those 1,200 men high and dry. Kennedy's last minute waffling is what doomed the Bay of Pigs invasion.

 

[Oldstyle]

And what's REALLY ironic is that Kennedy did what he did because he was worried that the world would figure out that the US was behind the invasion! Duh? Like the world DIDN'T know that? Totally idiotic.

THAT stupidity is what led Nikita K. to believe that he could intimidate Kennedy by building the Berlin wall and putting missiles into Cuba.

 

[thanatos144]

And what's REALLY ironic is that Kennedy did what he did because he was worried that the world would figure out that the US was behind the invasion! Duh? Like the world DIDN'T know that? Totally idiotic.

THAT stupidity is what led Nikita K. to believe that he could intimidate Kennedy by building the Berlin wall and putting missiles into Cuba.

And he was right. JFK folded like a lawn chair and gave up US strategic advantage

tapatalk post

 

[Bfgrn]

Once again you are repeating the "narrative" that has been constructed since JFK's death by his family and supporters that contradicts what Kennedy actually DID while President. The truth is this...JFK inherited a plan hatched by the CIA and approved by Eisenhower to back the invasion of Cuba by a force of Cuban nationals with air support by the US that would take out Cuba's air force. Kennedy however, made the decision to down size that US air support sending only 8 bombers to attack Cuban airfields instead of the 16 assigned to that task in the original plan, saying that he wanted the US involvement to be as low key as possible. The US bombers failed to take out the Cuban air force which then pinned down the invading force on the beaches and swamps of the Bay of Pigs where they subsequently surrendered two days later. It's not that Kennedy didn't approve military action against Cuba...it's that he didn't approve enough of it to do the job as planned and HE is in large part responsible for the failure of the invasion.

"Once again you are repeating the "narrative" that has been constructed since JFK's death"

It is called FACTS...

We now know—from the CIA's internal history of the Bay of Pigs, which was declassified in 2005—that agency officials realized their motley crew of invaders had no chance of victory unless they were reinforced by the U.S. military. But Allen Dulles and Richard Bissell, the top CIA officials, never disclosed this to J.F.K.

It is just more proof JFK was not a 'hawk'

"War will exist until that distant day when the conscientious objector enjoys the same reputation and prestige that the warrior does today."
John F. Kennedy

Since it was Kennedy's last minute call to send only half the bombers that the planners had designated to take out Cuban fighters how can you make the claim that Dulles and Bissell never "disclosed" to Kennedy that the Anti Castro forces had no chance of victory unless they were reinforced by the US military? They WERE in fact reinforced by the US military but under Kennedy's orders that support was halved at the last moment which resulted in an inability to destroy Castro's fighters. Then Kennedy withdrew the support of the eight US bombers and left those 1,200 men high and dry. Kennedy's last minute waffling is what doomed the Bay of Pigs invasion.

So far I have let you slide on postings emotes...now you need LINKS for your claims.