Pacifism and the Left

[regent]

Ike increased the American advisers from 350 to 800.
In 1946 Ho sent Truman a letter asking the US to support Vietnam against the French reoccupying Vietnam, imagine if Truman or Ike had supported Ho Chi Minh, but also on the stage at the time was Senator McCarthy. And again imagine the field day McCarthy would have had if Truman had supported Ho Chi Minh. In the long run was McCarthyism the cause of Vietnam?

 

[JoeB131]

July 26, 1950 - United States military involvement in Vietnam begins as President Harry Truman authorizes $15 million in military aid to the French.
American military advisors will accompany the flow of U.S. tanks, planes, artillery and other supplies to Vietnam. Over the next four years, the U.S. will spend $3 Billion on the French war and by 1954 will provide 80 percent of all war supplies used by the French.
The History Place - Vietnam War 1945-1960


Did you guys know that President Truman was a Democrat?
No?
See what you can learn around here?

Joe? Joe?

There was no Vietnam when Truman was president. There was "French IndoChina" and France was an ally.

When the Vietnamese won, and the French tried to pull a fast one by setting up a puppet government in the South, the US could have stayed out of it, and Ike didn't.

And incidently, I admire the shit out of Ike. Most of the current Republicans weren't fit to shine his shoes, inclusing that Weird Mormon Robot you all are running now.

But in this case, he was wrong. He could have put an end to the stupidity, and he didn't. Probably because he knew the reason he was president was because his party went out and screamed "who lost China". like China or Vietnam were ever ours to win or lose.

 

[JoeB131]

Ike increased the American advisers from 350 to 800.
In 1946 Ho sent Truman a letter asking the US to support Vietnam against the French reoccupying Vietnam, imagine if Truman or Ike had supported Ho Chi Minh, but also on the stage at the time was Senator McCarthy. And again imagine the field day McCarthy would have had if Truman had supported Ho Chi Minh. In the long run was McCarthyism the cause of Vietnam?

I think to a degree it was, but don't tell that to PolChick, she thinks McCarthy is a hero. really.

Of course, the problem was, during the War, the OSS worked with Ho Chi Mihn against the Japanese, and they thought he was a pretty good guy. We tried to see a local conflict (nationalists against collaborators) as an international one (Capitalism vs. Communism, like that means a thing when you are fertilizing a rice paddy with your own feces.)

 

[PoliticalChic]

July 26, 1950 - United States military involvement in Vietnam begins as President Harry Truman authorizes $15 million in military aid to the French.
American military advisors will accompany the flow of U.S. tanks, planes, artillery and other supplies to Vietnam. Over the next four years, the U.S. will spend $3 Billion on the French war and by 1954 will provide 80 percent of all war supplies used by the French.
The History Place - Vietnam War 1945-1960


Did you guys know that President Truman was a Democrat?
No?
See what you can learn around here?

Joe? Joe?

There was no Vietnam when Truman was president. There was "French IndoChina" and France was an ally.

When the Vietnamese won, and the French tried to pull a fast one by setting up a puppet government in the South, the US could have stayed out of it, and Ike didn't.

And incidently, I admire the shit out of Ike. Most of the current Republicans weren't fit to shine his shoes, inclusing that Weird Mormon Robot you all are running now.

But in this case, he was wrong. He could have put an end to the stupidity, and he didn't. Probably because he knew the reason he was president was because his party went out and screamed "who lost China". like China or Vietnam were ever ours to win or lose.

OMG!


You're not really going to pretend that that was what you meant all the time....that the United States was militarily involved in Indochina....so it wasn't really, really in Vietnam.....

....are you????




When Galileo stated that everything falls at the same speed, he wasn’t referring to your reputation.

 

[PoliticalChic]

Ike increased the American advisers from 350 to 800.
In 1946 Ho sent Truman a letter asking the US to support Vietnam against the French reoccupying Vietnam, imagine if Truman or Ike had supported Ho Chi Minh, but also on the stage at the time was Senator McCarthy. And again imagine the field day McCarthy would have had if Truman had supported Ho Chi Minh. In the long run was McCarthyism the cause of Vietnam?

I think to a degree it was, but don't tell that to PolChick, she thinks McCarthy is a hero. really.

Of course, the problem was, during the War, the OSS worked with Ho Chi Mihn against the Japanese, and they thought he was a pretty good guy. We tried to see a local conflict (nationalists against collaborators) as an international one (Capitalism vs. Communism, like that means a thing when you are fertilizing a rice paddy with your own feces.)

You really want to bring up the last time I beat you like a red-headed step child....I challenged you to name any non-communist who was injured by the great Joe McCarthy....

....and you couldn't.


True, Erroneous Joe?

 

[Unkotare]

Why should I apologize? That's been your MO throughout this thread,

Any time you presume to provide others with their conclusions by putting words in their mouths you are being a dishonest scumbag at the minimum.

 

[Polk]

Why should I apologize? That's been your MO throughout this thread,

Try to read more carefully...I didn't say you 'should'...
...I'm more than pleased that you have shown the level to which your side will sink.

I have never stated what you claim that I have.

Unless you can show that I espouse the fabrication you have designed to distort my informed position, you've revealed yourself to be the kind of prevaricator frequently found among those of your political persuasion.

Another difference between us: I am never less than honest.

I am perfectly happy to leave everything each of us has said as stated.

Never less than honest? That's a real laugh.

 

[Polk]

Ike increased the American advisers from 350 to 800.
In 1946 Ho sent Truman a letter asking the US to support Vietnam against the French reoccupying Vietnam, imagine if Truman or Ike had supported Ho Chi Minh, but also on the stage at the time was Senator McCarthy. And again imagine the field day McCarthy would have had if Truman had supported Ho Chi Minh. In the long run was McCarthyism the cause of Vietnam?

No, stupidity was. We were operating under this weird idea that if nations were communist, that means they had to be best buddies. China and Russia are two huge nations with long, proud history? Doesn't matter, they're going to play footsie now because they're both red. Thankfully we got people in office at some point (Nixon, et al.) that were able to call that out for what it was.

 

[JoeB131]

OMG!


You're not really going to pretend that that was what you meant all the time....that the United States was militarily involved in Indochina....so it wasn't really, really in Vietnam.....

....are you????

When Galileo stated that everything falls at the same speed, he wasn’t referring to your reputation.

Jesus, are you some kind of high functioning retard?

When we gave aid to France, French IndoChina was recognized as part of France. It was an internal french issue, just like we wouldn't have appreciated it all that much if France started screwing around in Puerto Rico.

When Vietnam became independent, then we had to deal with it as a sovereign state. So we could have either recognized the valid government of Ho Chi Mihn, which had popular support, or we could have recoginized the puppet government the French tried to set up.

Man, did we back the wrong horse.

 

[JoeB131]

You really want to bring up the last time I beat you like a red-headed step child....I challenged you to name any non-communist who was injured by the great Joe McCarthy....

....and you couldn't.


True, Erroneous Joe?

Uh, actually, I did. Easily.

But you see, to you, everyone who doesn't suck at Limbaugh's bloated teet is a "communist", so I'm not sure what the point of that argument was.

McCarthy was a Demogogue who was put down like a mad dog by his fellow Republicans. And then he died a disgraced drunk.

Almost makes me believe in a God.

 

[NYcarbineer]

Wikipedia's list of people harmed by McCarthy's witchhunt:

Nelson Algren, writer[48]
Elmer Bernstein, composer and conductor[49]
David Bohm, physicist and philosopher[50]
Bertolt Brecht, poet, playwright, screenwriter
Charlie Chaplin, actor and director[51]
Aaron Copland, composer[52]
Bartley Crum, attorney[53]
Howard Da Silva, actor[54]
Jules Dassin, director[55]
Dolores del Río, actress[56]
W. E. B. Du Bois, civil rights activist and author[57]
Howard Fast, writer[58]
Carl Foreman, writer of High Noon
John Garfield, actor[52]
Jack Gilford, actor[54]
Ruth Gordon, actress[54]
Lee Grant, actress[59]
Dashiell Hammett, author[52]
Elizabeth Hawes, clothing designer, author, equal rights activist[60]
Lillian Hellman, playwright[52]
Lena Horne, singer [54]
Langston Hughes, writer[52]
Sam Jaffe, actor[52]
Theodore Kaghan, diplomat[61]
Garson Kanin, writer and director[52]
Benjamin Keen, historian[62]
Gypsy Rose Lee, actress and stripper[52]
Cornelius Lanczos, mathematician and physicist[63]
Arthur Laurents, playwright[54]
Philip Loeb, actor[64]
Joseph Losey, director[52]
Burgess Meredith, actor[52]
Arthur Miller, playwright and essayist[52]
Zero Mostel, actor[52]
J. Robert Oppenheimer, physicist, scientific director of the Manhattan Project[65]
Dorothy Parker, writer[52]
Linus Pauling, chemist, winner of two Nobel prizes[66]
Samuel Reber, diplomat[67]
Martin Ritt, actor and director[68]
Paul Robeson, actor, athlete, singer, writer, political activist[69]
Edward G. Robinson, actor[52]
Waldo Salt, screenwriter[70]
Pete Seeger, folk singer[52]
Artie Shaw, jazz musician[52]
Irwin Shaw, writer[54]
William L. Shirer, journalist[71]
Lionel Stander, actor[72]
Paul Sweezy, economist and founder-editor of Monthly Review[73]
Charles W. Thayer, diplomat[74]
Tsien Hsue-shen, physicist[75]

McCarthyism - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

We'll leave it to PC to prove that either

a. each of them was in fact a 'Communist', or, b. that the ones she can't prove were Communists were not in fact harmed by the accusation.

 

[Douger]

Pacifism, done properly, comes with a promise.
You'll need to hit "show more" and then scroll down for Ingles.
[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ULFaoi-x6cM]My Choice - The National Anthem of Costa Rica - YouTube[/ame]

 

[PoliticalChic]

You really want to bring up the last time I beat you like a red-headed step child....I challenged you to name any non-communist who was injured by the great Joe McCarthy....

....and you couldn't.


True, Erroneous Joe?

Uh, actually, I did. Easily.

But you see, to you, everyone who doesn't suck at Limbaugh's bloated teet is a "communist", so I'm not sure what the point of that argument was.

McCarthy was a Demogogue who was put down like a mad dog by his fellow Republicans. And then he died a disgraced drunk.

Almost makes me believe in a God.

No, actually you didn't.

You named Annie Moss....

I posted the following:

Moss, in fact, had been “absolutely” identified as a Communist Party member by a reliable FBI informant. (David Oshinsky, A Conspiracy So Immense). She was listed in the Communist Party’s records. The Party newspaper, the Daily Worker, was delivered to her home- and followed when she moved. (Rogers v. Communist Party of the United States, Subversive Activities Control Board, September 19, 1958).


It is becoming harder and harder to find any instance where you have been correct....

Oh...right...You're Erroneous Joe!


Of interest is this: Whittaker Chambers wrote in his book "WITNESS" that liberals are/were incapable of ever effectively fighting Communism because they did not see anything in Communism that was antithetical to their own beliefs. In short, Liberals are Communists and Communists are Liberals.

 

[JoeB131]

Annie Moss was enough.

Someone named Annie Moss was a communist. Not the one that McCarthy crucified and was made to look like a fool when he found he had the wrong person.

Seriously, I'm not even sure why you are even going there. McCarthy was evil. No one naming a school after that guy.

 

[PoliticalChic]

Wikipedia's list of people harmed by McCarthy's witchhunt:

Nelson Algren, writer[48]
Elmer Bernstein, composer and conductor[49]
David Bohm, physicist and philosopher[50]
Bertolt Brecht, poet, playwright, screenwriter
Charlie Chaplin, actor and director[51]
Aaron Copland, composer[52]
Bartley Crum, attorney[53]
Howard Da Silva, actor[54]
Jules Dassin, director[55]
Dolores del Río, actress[56]
W. E. B. Du Bois, civil rights activist and author[57]
Howard Fast, writer[58]
Carl Foreman, writer of High Noon
John Garfield, actor[52]
Jack Gilford, actor[54]
Ruth Gordon, actress[54]
Lee Grant, actress[59]
Dashiell Hammett, author[52]
Elizabeth Hawes, clothing designer, author, equal rights activist[60]
Lillian Hellman, playwright[52]
Lena Horne, singer [54]
Langston Hughes, writer[52]
Sam Jaffe, actor[52]
Theodore Kaghan, diplomat[61]
Garson Kanin, writer and director[52]
Benjamin Keen, historian[62]
Gypsy Rose Lee, actress and stripper[52]
Cornelius Lanczos, mathematician and physicist[63]
Arthur Laurents, playwright[54]
Philip Loeb, actor[64]
Joseph Losey, director[52]
Burgess Meredith, actor[52]
Arthur Miller, playwright and essayist[52]
Zero Mostel, actor[52]
J. Robert Oppenheimer, physicist, scientific director of the Manhattan Project[65]
Dorothy Parker, writer[52]
Linus Pauling, chemist, winner of two Nobel prizes[66]
Samuel Reber, diplomat[67]
Martin Ritt, actor and director[68]
Paul Robeson, actor, athlete, singer, writer, political activist[69]
Edward G. Robinson, actor[52]
Waldo Salt, screenwriter[70]
Pete Seeger, folk singer[52]
Artie Shaw, jazz musician[52]
Irwin Shaw, writer[54]
William L. Shirer, journalist[71]
Lionel Stander, actor[72]
Paul Sweezy, economist and founder-editor of Monthly Review[73]
Charles W. Thayer, diplomat[74]
Tsien Hsue-shen, physicist[75]

McCarthyism - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

We'll leave it to PC to prove that either

a. each of them was in fact a 'Communist', or, b. that the ones she can't prove were Communists were not in fact harmed by the accusation.

Couldn't be easier.

1. What does 'victims of McCarthy' mean?
Define same.
OK...I'll help: their feelings were hurt.

2. "The best and most generous estimate is that during the entire decade of the red scare, ten thousand Americans lost their jobs because of their past or present affiliation with the Communist Party or one of its auxiliary organizations. Of those who lost their jobs, two thousand worked in the government, and in perhaps forty cases McCarthy himself was directly or indirectly responsible for their being fired. In only one case — that of Owen Lattimore — can anyone make the argument that McCarthy's allegations led to any actual legal proceedings, and there a judge eventually threw out most of the indictment. Paradoxically, the fact that McCarthy never sent anyone to prison is also turned against him; opponents claimed that during his entire career, he never actually exposed a single spy or Communist — a claim that is manifestly untrue, as we will see."
http://www.nytimes.com/books/first/h/herman-mccarthy.html

a. • The State Department's Owen Lattimore was the man that McCarthy made the most allegations against. McCarthy went so far as to say that he would stake his entire reputation on the question of whether Lattimore was a Communist agent. Now, of course, we have absolute proof that McCarthy was right.
Senator Joe McCarthy, anti-Communist


2. Victims??
From “blacklist survivor” Norma Barzman about her ‘exile’ in Paris: “We had dinner with Picasso every Tuesday night when we were at our country house in Provence. It was hard, but it was the time of my life.” (Dennis Hamilton, “Keeper of the Flame: A Blacklist Survivor,” Los Angeles Times, October 3, 2000) The horror, the horror.


3. Victims???
Proven guilty, jailed for 44 months for perjury (the statute of limitations had run out on espionage), Alger Hiss, traitorous agent of Soviet espionage, the American left views Hiss as a hero. After leaving prison, he spoke at Princeton and was given a standing ovation. Bard College actually has the Alger Hiss Chair of Social Studies (Lawrence Helm's Blog: The Alger Hiss Chair at Bard College)
In 1972, Massachusetts readmitted him to the bar. Liberals would never turn their backs on a man who spied for Stalin against America.



4. Victims??? I got ya' victims right here:

When anti-communism took its toll in Hollywood, the blacklisting took the “deadly” form of not having ones name in the credits, or living in Paris, or not being able to sell a teleplay for as much as three years. This for folks who had no problem with Ukrainian farmers and their children eating their shoes.
Coulter, "Treason."

 

[PoliticalChic]

Annie Moss was enough.

Someone named Annie Moss was a communist. Not the one that McCarthy crucified and was made to look like a fool when he found he had the wrong person.

Seriously, I'm not even sure why you are even going there. McCarthy was evil. No one naming a school after that guy.

Except that I proved you wrong....

Oh...right, you're a Liberal: wrong doesn't count....you just continue to run with it.

 

[JoeB131]

Annie Moss was enough.

Someone named Annie Moss was a communist. Not the one that McCarthy crucified and was made to look like a fool when he found he had the wrong person.

Seriously, I'm not even sure why you are even going there. McCarthy was evil. No one naming a school after that guy.

Except that I proved you wrong....

Oh...right, you're a Liberal: wrong doesn't count....you just continue to run with it.

Um, sorry, when you go into crazy Ann Coulter territory and try to rewrite history, I'm not sure there's much to do with you.

Go into any History and PolSci department in accredited universities, see how far your position gets.

You're done.

 

[PoliticalChic]

Annie Moss was enough.

Someone named Annie Moss was a communist. Not the one that McCarthy crucified and was made to look like a fool when he found he had the wrong person.

Seriously, I'm not even sure why you are even going there. McCarthy was evil. No one naming a school after that guy.

Except that I proved you wrong....

Oh...right, you're a Liberal: wrong doesn't count....you just continue to run with it.

Um, sorry, when you go into crazy Ann Coulter territory and try to rewrite history, I'm not sure there's much to do with you.

Go into any History and PolSci department in accredited universities, see how far your position gets.

You're done.

Your protestations are always so flimsy.....

A pity you don't read.

 

[JoeB131]

Except that I proved you wrong....

Oh...right, you're a Liberal: wrong doesn't count....you just continue to run with it.

Um, sorry, when you go into crazy Ann Coulter territory and try to rewrite history, I'm not sure there's much to do with you.

Go into any History and PolSci department in accredited universities, see how far your position gets.

You're done.

Your protestations are always so flimsy.....

A pity you don't read.

No, I just don't "Verstehen" Crazy...

Seriously, I mean, I just can't see how any reasonable person can look at McCarthyism, where career military and civil service people, could find themselves ruined by a drunken witchhunter...

I mean, honestly, if you are engaging in this level of crazy, I;m not sure if there is any talking to you.

Imagine a world where you replace "Communist" with "Republican", and then tell me what McCarthy did was okay...

 

[GoneBezerk]

You're such a fucking idiot.

If the Cold War was really over, then Russia would quit targeting US cities with nukes.

Uh, China's military took a leap forward in the 90s when Bill Clinton allowed US missile technology to help their ICBM and space programs, which are big threats to us. China has a nukes, dumbfuck.

Iran is not obsolete if they get nukes like you want, idiot. They rely on assymetric warfare in the Gulf region with fastboats shutting down shipping lanes and using their terrorist networks spread out around the world even here.

As for Russia, you clearly don't have a fucking clue to overlook them supporting Assad RIGHT NOW in Syria while he murders thousands there to stay in power. Nevermind giving weapons and intelligence aid to Saddam right up until we bombed his ass gone. Let's see....Iran's nuclear program right now is being supported by Russia as well as their air defense systems being upgraded to prevent an attack by us and Israel.

You are dumber than shit and should be banned from this board.

Liberals are just stupid people that either ignore threats out there or are just oblivious to them, maybe both. The "Cold War" comment is proof of this.

Did Russia quit targeting US cities with nukes when the so-called wall came down? No.
Has China grown its military and become more aggressive since the fall of the wall? Yes.
Is Iran a bigger threat today than they were when the USSR existed? Yes.
Is Russia destablizing the world today going back to wall coming down? Yes.

There will always be evil people in this world that are ready to steal resources from their neighbors and enslave them too. Liberals are just too stupid to understand this fact.

Okay, let's start answering these questions.

1) Every missile from our side and theirs has the capability to be aimed at any number of targets in minutes. Argument fail.

2) Yes, China has become a bigger military threat- largely because guys like Mitt Romney keep sending American jobs over there in order to break the American Middle Class. Nice job, everyone!

3) Is Iran a bigger threat? Not really. Most of their military is obsolte, they've had to mothball their American made warships because they can't keep them in repair.

4) Is Russia "destablizing" the world? Can you give examples?