Palestine Today

[P F Tinmore]

Good morning from Palestine

 

[Shusha]

RE Palestine Today
⁜→ P F Tinmore,

This little snippet about the all-inclusive set of all (an absolute statement → 100%) "Israeli Leaders" makes for a good bumper sticker or a title to a chapter in a work of fiction. It is even emphasized annotated in the description as being a fact with "no exception or variation."

There are very few things I know of that do not require reasoning. That is some manner of a process that seeks to understand the differences between good and bad - or - sound and valid. Today, we see just so much the nonsense which itself consists of solely of a declarative statement of one single proposition ("Israeli Leader" = "War Criminal"). It does not even pretend to be a presentation of an argument [either demonstrating validity and soundness (deductive) or statements that are rated by their strength in merit (weak → strong or inductive)], which themselves consist of at least two propositions (with each proposition being either true or false - but not both).

(COMMENT)

In the opening statement, supra, we see just how ridiculous a literal interpretation of the statement is. Yet, it does have this ring of truth that Hostile Arab Palestinians (HoAP) love to cling. There are two conjunctive simple propositions in this claim unified theme:

✦ ALL Israeli Leaders are War Criminals.

✦ ALL Israeli Leaders rose to power by slaughtering Palestinians.​

The question is, of course, one of the wisdom in entangling the twin ethical concept of "War Criminals" with that of the concept of "Slaughtering Palestinians" (both equally ambiguous). And we know that this relationship and entanglement is a fallacy of sorts. The "defeat" of the asymmetric warfare operators (Palestinians) does not equate to a War Crime. The use of the language and the application is not to impart knowledge. There is no question but that it is to "appeal to the emotion" (Vehemence Argument).

​

Most Respectfully,
R

You just believe that Israel can do no wrong.

Israel does lots wrong.

Good to know.

Are you going to argue that Israel is perfect?

Are you going to argue that the only alternative to "doing lots wrong" is "perfect"?
You blame Israel in "doing lots wrong", without elaborating, in the context of this antisemitic thread - that was the reason for my remark.

Anyone who reads my posts on any sort of regular basis knows what I think Israel is doing wrong. But I'd be happy to elaborate if you want to have that discussion with me.

But, it sounds like we agree on the essential point that Israel makes moral or political or military mistakes but that we never have the chance to discuss any of that because we are too busy addressing the antisemitism which runs rampant in this section of the board.

 

[P F Tinmore]

Israeli occupation military court extended the arrest of the #student in Birzeit #university Mais Abu Ghoush for additional 8 days.

 

[P F Tinmore]

Disabled children were forced to take their courses in camps after the demolition of their school during the Israeli 51-day aggression.

 

[P F Tinmore]

You just believe that Israel can do no wrong.

Israel does lots wrong.

Good to know.

Are you going to argue that Israel is perfect?

Are you going to argue that the only alternative to "doing lots wrong" is "perfect"?
You blame Israel in "doing lots wrong", without elaborating, in the context of this antisemitic thread - that was the reason for my remark.

Anyone who reads my posts on any sort of regular basis knows what I think Israel is doing wrong. But I'd be happy to elaborate if you want to have that discussion with me.

But, it sounds like we agree on the essential point that Israel makes moral or political or military mistakes but that we never have the chance to discuss any of that because we are too busy addressing the antisemitism which runs rampant in this section of the board.

But, it sounds like we agree on the essential point that Israel makes moral or political or military mistakes

Except I don't think those are mistakes. I think those "mistakes" are a matter of policy.

 

[RoccoR]

RE: Palestine Today
⁜→ P F Tinmore, et al,

It is certainly NOT an issue settler-colonial project (started before 1948). At least is not "colonial" is the way you use it. This is intentional misinformation to draw sympathy.

Pay close attention here.

colonialism • Control by one power over a dependent area or people. The purposes of colonialism include economic exploitation of the colony’s natural resources, creation of new markets for the colonizer, and
extension of the colonizer’s way of life beyond its national borders. The most active practitioners were European countries; in the years 1500–1900, Europe colonized all of North and South America and Australia,
most of Africa, and much of Asia by sending settlers to populate the land or by taking control of governments. The first colonies were established in the Western Hemisphere by the Spanish and Portuguese in the 15th–
16th century. The Dutch colonized Indonesia in the 16th century, and Britain colonized North America and India in the 17th–18th centuries. Later British settlers colonized Australia and New Zealand. Colonization of
Africa only began in earnest in the 1880s, but by 1900 virtually the entire continent was controlled by Europe. The colonial-era ended gradually after WorldWar II; the only territories still governed as colonies today are small islands.
SOURCE: The .pdf Version © 2006 BY ENCYCLOPÆDIA BRITANNICA, INC.

The idea that Israel is not perfect, right, or good is a distraction from the real issue. The real issue is the settler colonial project.

Settler colonialism is when the natives are removed and they are replaced by foreign settlers. It is an aggressive act. This was started before 1948 and continues to today.

(COMMENT)

You would have to go backward in time (more than) a century to find a colonial program in progress. However, the reality is that you are quoting from a "description" formed by a general survey of many different colonial projects long after the fact (an outcome • not an intention and not a necessary distinguishing characteristic). It is a crutch that the Arab Palestinian cling to as a justification for conflict these many decades. As I have told you many times, there are no more colonial territories in the Middle East and North Africa (MENA).

Today, 17 Non-Self-Governing Territories (NSGTs), as listed below, remain on the agenda of the C-24. Member States which have or assume responsibilities for the administration of such Territories are called administering Powers. The Special Committee on the Situation with regard to the implementation of the Declaration on the Granting of Independence of Colonial Countries and Peoples (also known as the "Special Committee on Decolonization" or the "C-24") and the peoples of the Non-Self-Governing Territories, in accordance with the relevant United Nations resolutions on decolonization.

Click to Expand the Map for a clearer View.​

JUST so everyone understands, CLEARLY, the UN Map #4175 Rev 5 (2016), supra, is to show that nothing in the realm of the MENA falls under consideration of A/RES/15/1514 - Declaration on the Granting of Independence to Colonial Countries and C-24. It is not a colonial issue and has not been so since the time of the Ottoman Empire.

Our friend "P F Tinmore" is merely engaging in the dissemination of misinformation that masquerades as justification for the continued violence.


Most Respectfully,
R

 

[P F Tinmore]

RE: Palestine Today
⁜→ P F Tinmore, et al,

It is certainly NOT an issue settler-colonial project (started before 1948). At least is not "colonial" is the way you use it. This is intentional misinformation to draw sympathy.

Pay close attention here.

colonialism • Control by one power over a dependent area or people. The purposes of colonialism include economic exploitation of the colony’s natural resources, creation of new markets for the colonizer, and
extension of the colonizer’s way of life beyond its national borders. The most active practitioners were European countries; in the years 1500–1900, Europe colonized all of North and South America and Australia,
most of Africa, and much of Asia by sending settlers to populate the land or by taking control of governments. The first colonies were established in the Western Hemisphere by the Spanish and Portuguese in the 15th–
16th century. The Dutch colonized Indonesia in the 16th century, and Britain colonized North America and India in the 17th–18th centuries. Later British settlers colonized Australia and New Zealand. Colonization of
Africa only began in earnest in the 1880s, but by 1900 virtually the entire continent was controlled by Europe. The colonial-era ended gradually after WorldWar II; the only territories still governed as colonies today are small islands.
SOURCE: The .pdf Version © 2006 BY ENCYCLOPÆDIA BRITANNICA, INC.

The idea that Israel is not perfect, right, or good is a distraction from the real issue. The real issue is the settler colonial project.

Settler colonialism is when the natives are removed and they are replaced by foreign settlers. It is an aggressive act. This was started before 1948 and continues to today.

(COMMENT)

You would have to go backward in time (more than) a century to find a colonial program in progress. However, the reality is that you are quoting from a "description" formed by a general survey of many different colonial projects long after the fact (an outcome • not an intention and not a necessary distinguishing characteristic). It is a crutch that the Arab Palestinian cling to as a justification for conflict these many decades. As I have told you many times, there are no more colonial territories in the Middle East and North Africa (MENA).

Today, 17 Non-Self-Governing Territories (NSGTs), as listed below, remain on the agenda of the C-24. Member States which have or assume responsibilities for the administration of such Territories are called administering Powers. The Special Committee on the Situation with regard to the implementation of the Declaration on the Granting of Independence of Colonial Countries and Peoples (also known as the "Special Committee on Decolonization" or the "C-24") and the peoples of the Non-Self-Governing Territories, in accordance with the relevant United Nations resolutions on decolonization.

View attachment 289021
Click to Expand the Map for a clearer View.​

JUST so everyone understands, CLEARLY, the UN Map #4175 Rev 5 (2016), supra, is to show that nothing in the realm of the MENA falls under consideration of A/RES/15/1514 - Declaration on the Granting of Independence to Colonial Countries and C-24. It is not a colonial issue and has not been so since the time of the Ottoman Empire.

Our friend "P F Tinmore" is merely engaging in the dissemination of misinformation that masquerades as justification for the continued violence.


Most Respectfully,
R

Considering that the denial of the inalienable rights of the Palestinian people to self determination, sovereignty, independence and return to Palestine...

Reaffirms the inalienable right of the Namibian people, the Palestinian people and all peoples under foreign and colonial domination to self determination, national independence, territorial integrity, national unity and sovereignty without outside interference;

Strongly condemns those Governments that do not recognize the right to self determination and independence of all peoples still under colonial and foreign domination and alien subjugation, notably the peoples of Africa and the Palestinian people;

A/RES/37/43 - E - A/RES/37/43

 

[Shusha]

Israel does lots wrong.

Good to know.

Are you going to argue that Israel is perfect?

Are you going to argue that the only alternative to "doing lots wrong" is "perfect"?
You blame Israel in "doing lots wrong", without elaborating, in the context of this antisemitic thread - that was the reason for my remark.

Anyone who reads my posts on any sort of regular basis knows what I think Israel is doing wrong. But I'd be happy to elaborate if you want to have that discussion with me.

But, it sounds like we agree on the essential point that Israel makes moral or political or military mistakes but that we never have the chance to discuss any of that because we are too busy addressing the antisemitism which runs rampant in this section of the board.

But, it sounds like we agree on the essential point that Israel makes moral or political or military mistakes

Except I don't think those are mistakes. I think those "mistakes" are a matter of policy.

Sure. I think some of Israel's policies are mistakes. Some of them are morally problematic. Some of them are militarily incompetent. Some of them are politically inept.

 

[Coyote]

Photos of the house of Palestinian family of Abu Humaid after it was demolished by Israeli forces for the 5th time, in El Amari refugee camp in Al Berih city.

For perspective, lets talk about this family who has had their home destroyed.

There are six male children in this family.

Three are in prison for murdering Israelis. Two are in prison for other serious security offenses. One was killed while he was acting in part of an ambush.

Now, I'm not necessarily arguing that home demolition is the morally correct thing to do here. But for those of you who argue that Israel shouldn't be doing these things, please suggest an alternative that Israel can use to deter ENTIRE FAMILIES from this kind of terrorism.

And, Tinmore, please, for the love of all that is holy, do NOT come back with "only Israel can end Israel's war". Give us some concrete, morally and legally appropriate ways for Israel to deter or otherwise prevent terrorist acts from Arab Palestinians. (Not that I'm expecting you to actually answer that. You never do.)

Does it actually act as a deterrence or does have the opposite effect?

Do the homes of Jewish terrorists get demolished?

 

[Shusha]

Considering that the denial of the inalienable rights of the Palestinian people to self determination, sovereignty, independence and return to Palestine...

Reaffirms the inalienable right of the Namibian people, the Palestinian people and all peoples under foreign and colonial domination to self determination, national independence, territorial integrity, national unity and sovereignty without outside interference;

Strongly condemns those Governments that do not recognize the right to self determination and independence of all peoples still under colonial and foreign domination and alien subjugation, notably the peoples of Africa and the Palestinian people;

Arrrggggh. So frustrating not to get to you be able to understand that these concepts must be applied equally to BOTH peoples.

Considering that the denial of the inalienable rights of the Jewish people to self determination, sovereignty, independence and return.

Reaffirms the inalienable right of the Jewish people and all peoples under foreign and colonial domination to self determination, national independence, territorial integrity, national unity and sovereignty without outside interference.

Strongly condemns those Governments that do not recognize the right to self determination and independence of all peoples still under colonial and foreign domination and alien subjugation, notably the Jewish people.

Its the same thing. BOTH peoples.

 

[Shusha]

Does it actually act as a deterrence or does have the opposite effect?

I don't think you will like my answer.

 

[Coyote]

RE: Palestine Today

⁜→ et al,


Now we are becoming rather philosophical → with the question → Is Israel:

✦ Perfect or Imperfect

✦ Right or Wrong

✦ Good or Evil​

This is (in a round-about way) claiming that the Israeli way of life and culture is fundamentally flawed, because the culture has not been proven to be "perfect," - "right," - "good." And that the culture of Israel cannot be defending because the government, the way of life, the morality/ethics and the justice system is imperfect.

The question of Israel, from the Arab Palestinian perspective:

✦ Views the establish of Israel as unlawful, improper, unprincipled or discordant because the Arab Palestinians were opposed to the process by which it employed the right of self-determination.

✦ It severely criticizes the resurrection of the Jewish National Home when the path set by the Ottoman Empire/Turkish Republic, which renounced all rights and title - handing-over the territories in question into the hands of the Allied Powers and allowed the future of these territories to be settled by the parties to the Treaty → as an instrument of victory.

✦ The concepts established through the Balfour Declaration, the Palestine Mandate, and everything that has been based on them, are deemed null and void simply because the outcome is not to the satisfaction of the Arab Palestinian.

✦ Claims of historical or religious ties of Jews with Palestine are incompatible with the facts of history and the conception of what constitutes statehood.

✦ That Judaism, being a religion, is not an independent nationality.

✦ The Jews cannot establish their own nation with an identity of their own.

✦ The Arab Palestinians are entitled to the entirety of Palestine, with the boundaries Palestine had during the British Mandate period.
​

And the Arab Palestine entangles America by claiming the Americans enable crimes and sins committed by the Jews against the Arab Palestinians, and that the Israelis have no right to the terriotrial integrity.

So, in the end, the Arab Palestinians believe that they are entitled something, based on an unknown, over actions taken since the end of The Great War (WWI).

Somehow, the Leaders of the various Arab Palestinian movements argue that sovereignty under their leadership would be - somehow - qualitatively better than that presented by the Israeli.


Most Respectfully,
R

The idea that Israel is not perfect, right, or good is a distraction from the real issue. The real issue is the settler colonial project.

Settler colonialism is when the natives are removed and they are replaced by foreign settlers. It is an aggressive act. This was started before 1948 and continues to today.

That isn’t exactly what happened. Accurate historical numbers are problematic in that region, but by and large it was found that Jewish immigration did not displace native Arab populations. The Jews tended to settle in different areas. With war, things changed, both Jews and Arabs were forced out of various areas, some through violence, some through well founded fear.

The problem with the often repeated meme of Jews as colonists is what does that make the foriegn Arabs who came to region from other countries, looking for jobs, and stayed? Are they colonists too?

 

[Coyote]

RE Palestine Today
⁜→ P F Tinmore,

This little snippet about the all-inclusive set of all (an absolute statement → 100%) "Israeli Leaders" makes for a good bumper sticker or a title to a chapter in a work of fiction. It is even emphasized annotated in the description as being a fact with "no exception or variation."

There are very few things I know of that do not require reasoning. That is some manner of a process that seeks to understand the differences between good and bad - or - sound and valid. Today, we see just so much the nonsense which itself consists of solely of a declarative statement of one single proposition ("Israeli Leader" = "War Criminal"). It does not even pretend to be a presentation of an argument [either demonstrating validity and soundness (deductive) or statements that are rated by their strength in merit (weak → strong or inductive)], which themselves consist of at least two propositions (with each proposition being either true or false - but not both).

(COMMENT)

In the opening statement, supra, we see just how ridiculous a literal interpretation of the statement is. Yet, it does have this ring of truth that Hostile Arab Palestinians (HoAP) love to cling. There are two conjunctive simple propositions in this claim unified theme:

✦ ALL Israeli Leaders are War Criminals.

✦ ALL Israeli Leaders rose to power by slaughtering Palestinians.​

The question is, of course, one of the wisdom in entangling the twin ethical concept of "War Criminals" with that of the concept of "Slaughtering Palestinians" (both equally ambiguous). And we know that this relationship and entanglement is a fallacy of sorts. The "defeat" of the asymmetric warfare operators (Palestinians) does not equate to a War Crime. The use of the language and the application is not to impart knowledge. There is no question but that it is to "appeal to the emotion" (Vehemence Argument).

​

Most Respectfully,
R

You just believe that Israel can do no wrong.

Israel does lots wrong.

Good to know.

Are you going to argue that Israel is perfect?

Are you going to argue that the only alternative to "doing lots wrong" is "perfect"?
You blame Israel in "doing lots wrong", without elaborating, in the context of this antisemitic thread - that was the reason for my remark.

How is a thread about Palestinians anti Semitic?

 

[Coyote]

Does it actually act as a deterrence or does have the opposite effect?

I don't think you will like my answer.

Maybe not.

 

[Shusha]

Does it actually act as a deterrence or does have the opposite effect?

I don't think you will like my answer.

Maybe not.

Wanna try?

 

[Shusha]

How is a thread about Palestinians anti Semitic?

Because its largely a troll thread where Tinmore posts memes and propaganda about how "evil" Israel is and how "angelic" the Arab Palestinians are.

 

[Coyote]

How is a thread about Palestinians anti Semitic?

Because its largely a troll thread where Tinmore posts memes and propaganda about how "evil" Israel is and how "angelic" the Arab Palestinians are.

Ah. Ok.

Yet there are also threads on how wonderful Israel is and how horrible Palestinians are

 

[Coyote]

Does it actually act as a deterrence or does have the opposite effect?

I don't think you will like my answer.

Maybe not.

Wanna try?

Sure - go for it

 

[Shusha]

How is a thread about Palestinians anti Semitic?

Because its largely a troll thread where Tinmore posts memes and propaganda about how "evil" Israel is and how "angelic" the Arab Palestinians are.

Ah. Ok.

Yet there are also threads on how wonderful Israel is and how horrible Palestinians are

Well, if this was a thread that was only on "how wonderful Arab Palestine is", I wouldn't have a problem with it.

 

[Coyote]

How is a thread about Palestinians anti Semitic?

Because its largely a troll thread where Tinmore posts memes and propaganda about how "evil" Israel is and how "angelic" the Arab Palestinians are.

Ah. Ok.

Yet there are also threads on how wonderful Israel is and how horrible Palestinians are

Well, if this was a thread that was only on "how wonderful Arab Palestine is", I wouldn't have a problem with it.

I tried a thread like that and it got trolled with how evil Palestinians are