Palestinian children tortured, used as shields by Israel: U.N.

[MHunterB]

: )) By 'free' I mean 'government funded' as opposed to schools which charge tuition. I don't think that equates to 'communism' but to 'community'. Perhaps my vocabulary is too 'American' there?

 

[krych3k]

I'm not asking Israel to provide ME with anything. Read the OP.

If the Isaeli's don't want to have human rights charges brought against them then it behooves them to provide the necessary information clearing them of the charges. Instead, they cry wolf - everyone's biased, everyone want's their destruction yada yada yada.

"Human rights charges"? What are those, exactly? Are you now going to invoke "international law" (as if you know what that means)?

From Miriam Webster:

Charge - a statement of complaint or hostile criticism

Ah, so you're cherry-picking the definition, implying you used the term "charge" as a synonym for "accusation". So Israel needs to respond directly to every criticism that comes from Jew-hating Muslim-majority states at the UN? Absurd.

 

[Lipush]

I do not believe to Btselem reports.

Not long ago they showed a video presenting settlers cutting off olive trees. Turned out the Palestinians did it themselves.

Just like the Palestinians faked "price tag" incidents which were reported by Btselem.

Therefor, I do not take for fact anything they say.

"Fool me twice..." you know how it continues

They have a reputation for checking and investigating thoroughly - enough so that they have the respect of the government and courts. That doesn't mean they are 100% right - no one is. Sometimes the IDF is wrong. Should you then stop taking for fact anything they say?

I already said on page 1 however, that I think this should be checked and not directly being brushed under the rug.

I know - I saw, and agree

Still doesn't mean we should change anything just because the UN thinks we do.

No. You should change it because that is not the country you want to be and not the kind of people you want to be.

At least - that is how I feel about my country and abuses that occur in such issues as the treatment of the mentally ill, the high numbers of people incarcerated for minor crimes or the 3-strikes rules, the death penalty and the racial inequities regarding law enforcement, anti-semitism, islamophobia, racism etc etc. Those are things that I think we as a country should not condone or white wash.

For the record, I don't believe in everything the IDF says either.

But in their intentions I believe, in Btselem, not so much.

We have some faith in different organizations for the Arab minority. such as "the committee of co-existence" and "the movement of the regime's quality".

That is because I know they do not lie and even if at many times I disagree with their findings, I know they are well intended and thought-triggering.

Btselem? not even close!

In cases Israel is proven wrong, of course I think changes should take place. but not when it comes from certain mouths on certain agendas which are far from serving justice.

 

[Coyote]

"Human rights charges"? What are those, exactly? Are you now going to invoke "international law" (as if you know what that means)?

From Miriam Webster:

Charge - a statement of complaint or hostile criticism

Ah, so you're cherry-picking the definition, implying you used the term "charge" as a synonym for "accusation". So Israel needs to respond directly to every criticism that comes from Jew-hating Muslim-majority states at the UN? Absurd.

No. It's not "cherry picking". It was the definition I used when I used the word "charge". Israel has been open to charges from various sources - human rights groups (including those within Israel), UN, other nations - of human rights violations of Palestinian minors.

Israel doesn't have to justify anything. It can simply let the criticisms continue. An no, they don't all come from the Jew-hating Muslim-majority states at the UN.

 

[HistoryBefore67]

Israel doesn't have to justify anything. It can simply let the criticisms continue.

So you think that if Israel responds to every frivolous allegation made against it that, in doing so, it will discourage additional criticism?

That is monumentally naive.

When Israel is wrongfully accused, and it presents clear evidence of the falsity of the allegations against it, what happens? Does the criticism and false accusations stop?

Of course not.

Look at the Goldstone Report. Two years after defaming Israel, a retraction was finally published that acknowledged that "civilians were not intentionally targeted as a matter of [Israeli] policy" while "the crimes allegedly committed by Hamas were intentional."

Wow! Thanks! After two years of lies and defamation, the overwhelming weight of evidence finally forces a retraction to be published.

So, yes... maybe Israel should just ignore the UN and its biased "fact-finding" missions.

 

[krych3k]

From Miriam Webster:

Charge - a statement of complaint or hostile criticism

Ah, so you're cherry-picking the definition, implying you used the term "charge" as a synonym for "accusation". So Israel needs to respond directly to every criticism that comes from Jew-hating Muslim-majority states at the UN? Absurd.

No. It's not "cherry picking". It was the definition I used when I used the word "charge". Israel has been open to charges from various sources - human rights groups (including those within Israel), UN, other nations - of human rights violations of Palestinian minors.

Israel doesn't have to justify anything. It can simply let the criticisms continue. An no, they don't all come from the Jew-hating Muslim-majority states at the UN.

The context of this thread is a "report" from the UNHRC, which is essentially a mouthpiece for Muslim-majority dictatorships which hate Jews. Of course, you view this institution and its criticisms as legitimate. Again, that tells us all just how seriously we should take you.

 

[Coyote]

Ah, so you're cherry-picking the definition, implying you used the term "charge" as a synonym for "accusation". So Israel needs to respond directly to every criticism that comes from Jew-hating Muslim-majority states at the UN? Absurd.

No. It's not "cherry picking". It was the definition I used when I used the word "charge". Israel has been open to charges from various sources - human rights groups (including those within Israel), UN, other nations - of human rights violations of Palestinian minors.

Israel doesn't have to justify anything. It can simply let the criticisms continue. An no, they don't all come from the Jew-hating Muslim-majority states at the UN.

The context of this thread is a "report" from the UNHRC, which is essentially a mouthpiece for Muslim-majority dictatorships which hate Jews. Of course, you view this institution and its criticisms as legitimate. Again, that tells us all just how seriously we should take you.

The report itself did not occur in a vacuum. The findings in it have been made by other entities as well, this is only the latest compilation.

 

[HistoryBefore67]

Coyote does not seem to get that the sentiment "you have nothing to fear if you have nothing to hide" is of little comfort to Jews.

 

[Coyote]

Israel doesn't have to justify anything. It can simply let the criticisms continue.

So you think that if Israel responds to every frivolous allegation made against it that, in doing so, it will discourage additional criticism?

I wouldn't consider this "frivolous".

That is monumentally naive.

When Israel is wrongfully accused, and it presents clear evidence of the falsity of the allegations against it, what happens? Does the criticism and false accusations stop?

Of course not.

So when Israel is accused of something, despite evidence - it's always "wrongful"? That's what I mean when I say whenever these things are bought up the counter argument is always that it's "false", or there is a massive attempt to descredit the sources.

Like I said - sometimes Israel is wrong, like when it denied using white phosphorous in Gaza.

Look at the Goldstone Report. Two years after defaming Israel, a retraction was finally published that acknowledged that "civilians were not intentionally targeted as a matter of [Israeli] policy" while "the crimes allegedly committed by Hamas were intentional."

Wow! Thanks! After two years of lies and defamation, the overwhelming weight of evidence finally forces a retraction to be published.

Yes, except you left out the rest of it. Much of the Goldstone Report remained credible.

So, yes... maybe Israel should just ignore the UN and its biased "fact-finding" missions.

Sure. They can if they choose to. Just like any other nation with human rights abuses.

 

[HistoryBefore67]

If you think the Goldstone report is credible then we have nothing left to discuss on this subject.

 

[krych3k]

If you think the Goldstone report is credible then we have nothing left to discuss on this subject.

Exactly. He's not a serious poster. Total waste of time.

 

[Coyote]

Coyote does not seem to get that the sentiment "you have nothing to fear if you have nothing to hide" is of little comfort to Jews.

Actually, I do, the cultural paranoia of Israel is justified by a long history and I'm sure it drives a lot of policies. At some point, however, you have to step back and ask if it's really to your benefit as a people or a nation. Israel has a great deal of security powerful allies - it's not going to crumble into dust and blow away if it addresses these issues.

 

[Coyote]

If you think the Goldstone report is credible then we have nothing left to discuss on this subject.

The only portion of it that was retracted was the claim on Israel intentionally targeting civilians. United Nations Fact Finding Mission on the Gaza Conflict - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia



I suspect it lacks credibility in your mind because it manages to paint both Hamas and Israel in a bad light.

 

[krych3k]

It doesn't matter what was or wasn't retracted. Anti-Israel hit pieces from the Jew-hating UNHRC have no credibility. By your standard, the accusations are valid only until (and if) they are retracted by the accusers. It's an absurd position. But wait, you're a friend to Israel and the Jewish people, right?

 

[krych3k]

What anti-Israel types like coyote can't grasp is that many of us are very critical of Israel, but from a completely different point of departure. There is no legitimacy to the narrative that Israel violates the "human rights" of the "Palestinians" within the "occupation". The narrative, generally, is that the Jews abuse the Arabs/Muslims with a heavy hand. Nothing could be further from the truth. Where Israel does deserve criticism is that Israel doesn't do enough to secure its Jewish citizenry. Why are non-Jews permitted to vote and hold office in Israel? Why is there no death penalty for terrorists? Why are we supplying Gaza with water and electricity? Why are we allowing them to connect to our telecommunications infrastructure? Why do we prohibit our soldiers and police from using lethal force to defend themselves from violent "protestors" and "demonstrators" that throw rocks and firebombs? Why do we send our soldiers onto terrorist flotillas one-by-one with paintball guns? Why do our soldiers do house-to-house searches and place themselves at risk rather than destroying entire buildings and neighbourhoods? This is where our criticism comes from.

The truth, of course, is that Israel is entirely too soft with her enemies. The result? Ongoing terrorism and intransigence. We invite hostility by not smashing our enemies over the metaphorical anvil to break them.

 

[krych3k]

Oh please, these kids (who are mostly terrorists) are treated with kids gloves.

 

[krych3k]

Coyote doesn't realise that children are regularly used in the infrastructure of terrorism: as spotters, bomb/weapon builders, intelligence gatherers, transporters, and of course, as human shields. Meanwhile, he's worried about them being "mistreated" by Israel when arrested.

 

[Coyote]

It doesn't matter what was or wasn't retracted. Anti-Israel hit pieces from the Jew-hating UNHRC have no credibility. By your standard, the accusations are valid only until (and if) they are retracted by the accusers. It's an absurd position. But wait, you're a friend to Israel and the Jewish people, right?

No. If they are supported by evidence, they're valid. Like the use of WP in Gaza. In this case the abuses have been documented by agencies and groups other than the UN. I supposed they are ALL biased liars according to your logic?

I think they should be investigated thoroughly and I think that the Israeli's should look seriously at it and at improving their system regarding juvaniles. A soldier using a child as a human shield getting off on such a light punishment? This from a country who makes the use of human shields a major moral point of difference between the IDF and Hamas?

Look at your signature.

 

[krych3k]

What is wrong with the use of WP? Oh, right. Nothing.

 

[krych3k]

Do you even know what WP is and what it's used for?