Pastor arrested for holding home Bible study

[Againsheila]

Let's face it, some of these zoning laws are stupid and some of the people complaining about this man violating them would be the first to violate them if they wanted something and could figure a way around the law to get it.

All other issues aside, I agree regarding some zoning laws. However, they are laws and can be challenged appropriately. Now, if he wishes to use this case to challenge an allegedly stupid zoning law, then that is the basis on which he should have defended himself. He can then appeal if he believes that the zoning law in question violates the state or federal constitution.

Short of that, his only recourse is in lobbying his local legislators.

Getting himself arrested is simply stupid... and it isn't a religious issue...

unless you think laws shouldn't be enforced against people to whom you want to give a preference.

The question remains, would this man have been arrested for holding a quilting bee?

 

[pinqy]

Let's face it, some of these zoning laws are stupid and some of the people complaining about this man violating them would be the first to violate them if they wanted something and could figure a way around the law to get it.

All other issues aside, I agree regarding some zoning laws. However, they are laws and can be challenged appropriately. Now, if he wishes to use this case to challenge an allegedly stupid zoning law, then that is the basis on which he should have defended himself. He can then appeal if he believes that the zoning law in question violates the state or federal constitution.

Short of that, his only recourse is in lobbying his local legislators.

Getting himself arrested is simply stupid... and it isn't a religious issue...

unless you think laws shouldn't be enforced against people to whom you want to give a preference.

The question remains, would this man have been arrested for holding a quilting bee?

With a special building not zoned for groups, with a sign advertising, with that many people showing up 2-3 times a week? Yep.

 

[OohPooPahDoo]

Pastor arrested for holding home Bible study



Other links with different perspectives are welcome.

Seems like an overreach to me. Cities certainly have a right to zone but if the pastor is indeed truthful when he says these meetings are not opened to the public, I think the city is overreaching.

 

[Againsheila]

All other issues aside, I agree regarding some zoning laws. However, they are laws and can be challenged appropriately. Now, if he wishes to use this case to challenge an allegedly stupid zoning law, then that is the basis on which he should have defended himself. He can then appeal if he believes that the zoning law in question violates the state or federal constitution.

Short of that, his only recourse is in lobbying his local legislators.

Getting himself arrested is simply stupid... and it isn't a religious issue...

unless you think laws shouldn't be enforced against people to whom you want to give a preference.

The question remains, would this man have been arrested for holding a quilting bee?

With a special building not zoned for groups, with a sign advertising, with that many people showing up 2-3 times a week? Yep.

I sincerely doubt it...

The Salmans have been gathering in the home since 2005, but in 2007 they did receive a notice from the City of Phoenix that Bible studies and other church-like activities are not permitted in a residence unless the property is converted to an A3 occupancy, which allows commercial and public use. Michael Salmon argued his case pointing out that their gatherings are not opened to the public. Just like in the Bible, gatherings were among believers who knew one another. It was part of body life. With only 15-20 people meeting, Salmon argued that the code was unconstitutional. They tried to take steps to meet the requirements, but did not want to become a commercial entity.


Nothing in that letter about quilting bees, is there?

 

[pinqy]

The question remains, would this man have been arrested for holding a quilting bee?

With a special building not zoned for groups, with a sign advertising, with that many people showing up 2-3 times a week? Yep.

I sincerely doubt it...

The Salmans have been gathering in the home since 2005, but in 2007 they did receive a notice from the City of Phoenix that Bible studies and other church-like activities are not permitted in a residence unless the property is converted to an A3 occupancy, which allows commercial and public use.

And hosting a public or large other gathering would fit in that as well. There are such things as zoning laws. That it took 2 years for the city to notice is not surprising.

Michael Salmon argued his case pointing out that their gatherings are not opened to the public.

That's in dispute.

Just like in the Bible, gatherings were among believers who knew one another. It was part of body life.

Irrelevant

With only 15-20 people meeting, Salmon argued that the code was unconstitutional.

No, freedom of religion does not mean exempt from zoning laws.
And it's in dispute that it was only 15-20, though that's still a large number for a gathering of friends 2-3 times a week...with a sign for the church.

They tried to take steps to meet the requirements, but did not want to become a commercial entity.

He had no trouble calling it a church for tax purposes, though, did he?


[qutoe]Nothing in that letter about quilting bees, is there?[/QUOTE]
I'd have to read the zoning laws....ok, I checked. Sign use is allowed for churches, so his would be allowed if he followed the rules for calling it a church, though a quilting bee sign would NOT be allowed. Otherwise it would also fall under public assembly.

Your turn....any evidence that any similar, but secular, activities/buildings etc are allowed????

It's ridiculous that you keep claiming that 2-3 times a week, there are worship services in a specific building, with a sign out front, and it's not really a church. Please.

 

[Againsheila]

With a special building not zoned for groups, with a sign advertising, with that many people showing up 2-3 times a week? Yep.

I sincerely doubt it...

The Salmans have been gathering in the home since 2005, but in 2007 they did receive a notice from the City of Phoenix that Bible studies and other church-like activities are not permitted in a residence unless the property is converted to an A3 occupancy, which allows commercial and public use.

And hosting a public or large other gathering would fit in that as well. There are such things as zoning laws. That it took 2 years for the city to notice is not surprising.

That's in dispute.
Irrelevant

With only 15-20 people meeting, Salmon argued that the code was unconstitutional.

No, freedom of religion does not mean exempt from zoning laws.
And it's in dispute that it was only 15-20, though that's still a large number for a gathering of friends 2-3 times a week...with a sign for the church.

They tried to take steps to meet the requirements, but did not want to become a commercial entity.

He had no trouble calling it a church for tax purposes, though, did he?


[qutoe]Nothing in that letter about quilting bees, is there?

I'd have to read the zoning laws....ok, I checked. Sign use is allowed for churches, so his would be allowed if he followed the rules for calling it a church, though a quilting bee sign would NOT be allowed. Otherwise it would also fall under public assembly.

Your turn....any evidence that any similar, but secular, activities/buildings etc are allowed????

It's ridiculous that you keep claiming that 2-3 times a week, there are worship services in a specific building, with a sign out front, and it's not really a church. Please.[/QUOTE]

I'm not claiming anything, I'm asking questions. I'm also pointing out that the notice he received ONLY mentions Bible study and churches, it doesn't mention anything else. So the "yes" to my question would this happen if he was holding a quilting bee is not sustainable based on the evidence.

 

[Amelia]

With a special building not zoned for groups, with a sign advertising, with that many people showing up 2-3 times a week? Yep.

I sincerely doubt it...

The Salmans have been gathering in the home since 2005, but in 2007 they did receive a notice from the City of Phoenix that Bible studies and other church-like activities are not permitted in a residence unless the property is converted to an A3 occupancy, which allows commercial and public use.

And hosting a public or large other gathering would fit in that as well. There are such things as zoning laws. That it took 2 years for the city to notice is not surprising.

That's in dispute.
Irrelevant

With only 15-20 people meeting, Salmon argued that the code was unconstitutional.

No, freedom of religion does not mean exempt from zoning laws.
And it's in dispute that it was only 15-20, though that's still a large number for a gathering of friends 2-3 times a week...with a sign for the church.

They tried to take steps to meet the requirements, but did not want to become a commercial entity.

He had no trouble calling it a church for tax purposes, though, did he?


[qutoe]Nothing in that letter about quilting bees, is there?

I'd have to read the zoning laws....ok, I checked. Sign use is allowed for churches, so his would be allowed if he followed the rules for calling it a church, though a quilting bee sign would NOT be allowed. Otherwise it would also fall under public assembly.

Your turn....any evidence that any similar, but secular, activities/buildings etc are allowed????

It's ridiculous that you keep claiming that 2-3 times a week, there are worship services in a specific building, with a sign out front, and it's not really a church. Please.[/QUOTE]



It appears that the hassling started before they declared themselves a church. Before there was a sign. Back when they were just a group of people sharing fellowship in a private home.

Did they declare themselves a church because they said they might as well since the city was going to give them a hard time about it?

Thank you for the extra info about their 2008 activities, but without more info about their activities when the city actually started making demands on them your criticism seems off the mark. You appear to be judging them based on what they did after the city told them that they were going to be treated as a church no matter what they called themselves. The city appears to have gotten that ball rolling in 2007. And it still APPEARS likely or at least possible that it was based on the Bible study activity, and that a nonreligious activity would have gotten a pass.

 

[Amelia]

It does appear that the pastor from the OP muddied the waters by going through the process of getting his group made into a church after the city told him that they were going to be treated as a church.

So what about this case? Home: No place for Bible study

 

[Againsheila]

It does appear that the pastor from the OP muddied the waters by going through the process of getting his group made into a church after the city told him that they were going to be treated as a church.

So what about this case? Home: No place for Bible study

“Do you have a regular weekly meeting in your home? Do you sing? Do you say ‘amen’?” the official reportedly asked. “Do you say, ‘Praise the Lord’?”

And people say that there's not anti-christian bigotry in this country.

 

[pinqy]

It does appear that the pastor from the OP muddied the waters by going through the process of getting his group made into a church after the city told him that they were going to be treated as a church.

So what about this case? Home: No place for Bible study

“Do you have a regular weekly meeting in your home? Do you sing? Do you say ‘amen’?” the official reportedly asked. “Do you say, ‘Praise the Lord’?”

And people say that there's not anti-christian bigotry in this country.

Where do you see bigotry in those questions? They were clearly meant to establsh the building's use as a church.

 

[Againsheila]

It does appear that the pastor from the OP muddied the waters by going through the process of getting his group made into a church after the city told him that they were going to be treated as a church.

So what about this case? Home: No place for Bible study

“Do you have a regular weekly meeting in your home? Do you sing? Do you say ‘amen’?” the official reportedly asked. “Do you say, ‘Praise the Lord’?”

And people say that there's not anti-christian bigotry in this country.

Where do you see bigotry in those questions? They were clearly meant to establsh the building's use as a church.

Never been to a Bible Study, have you?

 

[pinqy]

“Do you have a regular weekly meeting in your home? Do you sing? Do you say ‘amen’?” the official reportedly asked. “Do you say, ‘Praise the Lord’?”

And people say that there's not anti-christian bigotry in this country.

Where do you see bigotry in those questions? They were clearly meant to establsh the building's use as a church.

Never been to a Bible Study, have you?

Yes I have. Never involved singing or a podium or a building with folding chairs.

There's no formal definition of "church" and while the questions may have been imprecise and some would also cover simple bible study, the questions weren't out of line nor bigoted.

And how many bible studies have tax exempt church status?

Again, the religion is irrelevant...he was consistantly in violation of zoning laws and laws covering public use, which his clearly was. How many Bible Study groups have you been in that had over 20 people and met 2-3 times a week?

 

[Amelia]

Where do you see bigotry in those questions? They were clearly meant to establsh the building's use as a church.

Never been to a Bible Study, have you?

Yes I have. Never involved singing or a podium or a building with folding chairs.

There's no formal definition of "church" and while the questions may have been imprecise and some would also cover simple bible study, the questions weren't out of line nor bigoted.

And how many bible studies have tax exempt church status?

Again, the religion is irrelevant...he was consistantly in violation of zoning laws and laws covering public use, which his clearly was. How many Bible Study groups have you been in that had over 20 people and met 2-3 times a week?

We're talking about a different case now: http://www.wnd.com/2009/05/98895/

 

[pinqy]

Never been to a Bible Study, have you?

Yes I have. Never involved singing or a podium or a building with folding chairs.

There's no formal definition of "church" and while the questions may have been imprecise and some would also cover simple bible study, the questions weren't out of line nor bigoted.

And how many bible studies have tax exempt church status?

Again, the religion is irrelevant...he was consistantly in violation of zoning laws and laws covering public use, which his clearly was. How many Bible Study groups have you been in that had over 20 people and met 2-3 times a week?

We're talking about a different case now: Home: No place for Bible study

Ah, ok. Well, quick check and "religious assembly" is one of several activities that can require a major use permit. I think some would only need a minor use permit, though...I'm no legal expert. Here's the San Diego Zoning Ordinance if you get bored. But again, it's not Christians or even religion getting singled out. I suspect in the San Diego case, they'll end up not needing a major use permit, though.

 

[Againsheila]

Yes I have. Never involved singing or a podium or a building with folding chairs.

There's no formal definition of "church" and while the questions may have been imprecise and some would also cover simple bible study, the questions weren't out of line nor bigoted.

And how many bible studies have tax exempt church status?

Again, the religion is irrelevant...he was consistantly in violation of zoning laws and laws covering public use, which his clearly was. How many Bible Study groups have you been in that had over 20 people and met 2-3 times a week?

We're talking about a different case now: Home: No place for Bible study

Ah, ok. Well, quick check and "religious assembly" is one of several activities that can require a major use permit. I think some would only need a minor use permit, though...I'm no legal expert. Here's the San Diego Zoning Ordinance if you get bored. But again, it's not Christians or even religion getting singled out. I suspect in the San Diego case, they'll end up not needing a major use permit, though.

Of course they are being singled out...why else the "religious" questions???

I got it, it's okay to hassle the Christians because in the end they'll end up not needing a permit...geesh...

 

[pinqy]

We're talking about a different case now: Home: No place for Bible study

Ah, ok. Well, quick check and "religious assembly" is one of several activities that can require a major use permit. I think some would only need a minor use permit, though...I'm no legal expert. Here's the San Diego Zoning Ordinance if you get bored. But again, it's not Christians or even religion getting singled out. I suspect in the San Diego case, they'll end up not needing a major use permit, though.

Of course they are being singled out...why else the "religious" questions???

Because they were being investigated for holding religious assemblies, not day care. If the question was major use permit for day care, there would have been no religious questions.

And singled out? Really? what other relgious groups, day cares, civic organizations etc that would require MUPs are operating without investigation? ONLY religious groups are being looked at? Is that your claim?

 

[Againsheila]

Yes I have. Never involved singing or a podium or a building with folding chairs.

There's no formal definition of "church" and while the questions may have been imprecise and some would also cover simple bible study, the questions weren't out of line nor bigoted.

And how many bible studies have tax exempt church status?

Again, the religion is irrelevant...he was consistantly in violation of zoning laws and laws covering public use, which his clearly was. How many Bible Study groups have you been in that had over 20 people and met 2-3 times a week?

We're talking about a different case now: Home: No place for Bible study

Ah, ok. Well, quick check and "religious assembly" is one of several activities that can require a major use permit. I think some would only need a minor use permit, though...I'm no legal expert. Here's the San Diego Zoning Ordinance if you get bored. But again, it's not Christians or even religion getting singled out. I suspect in the San Diego case, they'll end up not needing a major use permit, though.

You would have hated our house on Thanksgiving, more than 20 people, often sayng "Praise the Lord" <usually followed with "and pass the potatoes"> And after dinner, dishes, with traditional Christmas songs while we worked.

It's mortifying to know that today that could be considered a "religious meeting" and not allowed without a permit. My how far we have fallen.

 

[pinqy]

We're talking about a different case now: Home: No place for Bible study

Ah, ok. Well, quick check and "religious assembly" is one of several activities that can require a major use permit. I think some would only need a minor use permit, though...I'm no legal expert. Here's the San Diego Zoning Ordinance if you get bored. But again, it's not Christians or even religion getting singled out. I suspect in the San Diego case, they'll end up not needing a major use permit, though.

You would have hated our house on Thanksgiving, more than 20 people, often sayng "Praise the Lord" <usually followed with "and pass the potatoes"> And after dinner, dishes, with traditional Christmas songs while we worked.

It's mortifying to know that today that could be considered a "religious meeting" and not allowed without a permit. My how far we have fallen.

No, it could not. One-off meetings/gatherings etc wouldn't be a problem. You really think a family Thanksgiving dinner is the same as meeting 3 times a week every week?

 

[Againsheila]

Ah, ok. Well, quick check and "religious assembly" is one of several activities that can require a major use permit. I think some would only need a minor use permit, though...I'm no legal expert. Here's the San Diego Zoning Ordinance if you get bored. But again, it's not Christians or even religion getting singled out. I suspect in the San Diego case, they'll end up not needing a major use permit, though.

You would have hated our house on Thanksgiving, more than 20 people, often sayng "Praise the Lord" <usually followed with "and pass the potatoes"> And after dinner, dishes, with traditional Christmas songs while we worked.

It's mortifying to know that today that could be considered a "religious meeting" and not allowed without a permit. My how far we have fallen.

No, it could not. One-off meetings/gatherings etc wouldn't be a problem. You really think a family Thanksgiving dinner is the same as meeting 3 times a week every week?

My neighbor's Bible study is once a week, every week. In addition, she has home-school meetings once a week, and play groups once a week. You could shut her down in an instant, and deprive her kids of their social group. What a great world we live in, our country should be ashamed of itself, as should anyone who supports this crap.

 

[Againsheila]

Brutal Gestapo Tactics Are Being Used Against Homeowners All Over America |

The control freaks that run things tell us what we can build on our own property, what we can grow on our own property, what types of gatherings we can have on our own property, how many visitors we can have on our own property and they have imposed very strict rules about how our property must be maintained.