Pete Buttigieg Twists Christianity: ‘Salvation’ Depends on Being ‘Useful.’

[Rustic]

“Works” have nothing to do with salvation... that is in the Bible
Ephesians 2:8
“For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God”

There are a number of verses in the Bible which, on their face, establish that justification is by faith alone and works are irrelevant . This are also a number of verses which say that we are judged by our works and that faith without works is dead. Some Christians believe in the former and others in the latter. That's just the way it is.

lol
“Works” Have absolutely nothing to do with salvation… If they did there would be no reason for the crucifixion of Christ.


1. Eph. 2:8-9 - "For BY GRACE are ye SAVED THROUGH FAITH; and that NOT OF
YOURSELVES: it is the GIFT of God: NOT OF WORKS, lest any man should boast."
2. Rom. 4:6-7 - God imputes "Righteousness without works." (See #9, #4, #45, #7, #12, #53)
3. Rom. 10:3 - It's a grave mistake for anyone to try to, "Establish their own righteousness."
4. Rom. 5:17 - Heaven deserving righteousness is a "GIFT," not something you earn.
5. Rom. 5:18 - Justification to God is a "FREE GIFT," not something you work toward.
6. Phil. 3:9 - Paul, as ‘good’ as he was, still wouldn't trust his "Own righteousness" to save him.
7. Rom. 3:22 - God's righteousness is credited to "ALL THEM THAT BELIEVE," not all that work.
8. Rom. 8:3-4 - The flesh is too "Weak" to save itself. We need a Saviour. We need Christ. (See #86)
9. Rom. 4:3 - Abraham's faith, not works, "Was counted unto him for righteousness."
10. Rom. 4:4-5 - Works are "Not reckoned of grace, but of debt." Faith is counted as righteousness.
11. Gal. 3:10 - To earn Heaven you'd have to "Continueth," perfectly, in the whole law. (See #81, #86)
12. Titus 3:5 - "NOT BY WORKS OF RIGHTEOUSNESS which we have done, but according to
his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost."
13. John 5:24 - In Christ we've "PASSED from death unto life." We don't have to "wait" to find out.
14. Rom. 9:31-32 - Israel, "Sought it not by faith, but as it were by the works of the law." (#33, #54)
15. Acts 4:12 - No other name but Christ can save us-- not the name of works, nor our own name.
16. John 1:12-13 - Only God's power, through His Son, makes us a child of God. We are not born into
God's family by "Blood" (heritage, family ‘pedigree’), "Nor will of the flesh" (good works), "Nor will
of man." (minister, or man made religion), "But of God." (See #12, #53, #21, #17, #22, #46, #15)
17. Isa. 45:22 - No one else can save a soul from Hell but God; "There is none else."
18. Acts 13:39 - "And by him [Christ] all that believe are justified from all things, from which ye
COULD NOT BE JUSTIFIED by the law of Moses." (See #33, #54, #53, #5, #42, #64, #82, #87, #80)
19. Rom. 8:7 - We can't follow God's law even if we wanted to. So how can we save ourselves? (#86, #8)
20. Matthew 7:21-23 - Christ describes a future scene in which some who are trusting in their "Many
wonderful works," will, sadly, be told by Christ: "I never knew you: depart from me, Ye that work
iniquity." Their good works will not save them. We all have to trust Christ, and Him ALONE. (#46, #12)
21. John 10:1 - We must enter through Christ, "THE DOOR," not by "Some other way.." (See #46)
22. John 8:24 - A person can work all they want, but it won't save them. Jesus said the bottom line is
that, "If ye believe not that I am he [the only way], ye shall die in your sins." (See #53 and #69)
23. Rom. 4:2 - If Abraham could have saved himself, he'd have something to brag about. (See #25, #1)
24. Acts 10:1-43 - Cornelius' good works would put anyone today to shame, yet he still had to get saved
by trusting solely in Christ to save him. (See #6, #12, #1, #88)
25. Rom. 3:27-28 - "Where is boasting then?...Of WORKS? nay." (See #1 and #23)
26. 1 John 5:13 - If your salvation depends on a lifetime of good works, then why does the Bible teach
that you could "KNOW" for sure, before you die, that you are going to Heaven? The answer is because
salvation doesn't depend on you, but on Christ, who ALREADY paid the price for your sins. (See #87)
27. Heb. 1:3 - "He had BY HIMSELF purged our sins." He doesn't need help from us! (See #15)
28. Heb. 2:3 - If we have to work at earning it, why does the Bible call it "So great salvation"?
29. Heb. 2:9-10 - Christ is "The CAPTAIN of their salvation." He tasted "Death for every man."
30. Heb. 2:14-15 - Christ is the one who will "DELIVER" us from death, not ourselves! (See #53)
31. Heb. 2:17 - Christ makes "RECONCILIATION for the sins." We can't reconcile ourselves.
32. Heb. 5:9 - Christ is "The AUTHOR of eternal salvation," not us! It's not in our hands.



33. Gal. 2:16 - "Knowing that a man IS NOT JUSTIFIED BY THE WORKS of the law, but by the
faith of Jesus Christ, ....that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and NOT by the WORKS
of the law: FOR BY THE WORKS OF THE LAW SHALL NO FLESH BE JUSTIFIED."
34. Heb. 9:28 - "Christ was once offered to bear the sins of many." God won't accept good works.
35. Heb. 10:10-12 - Christ's body was offered "Once for all." So stop insulting God with your works.
36. Heb. 10:14 - "For by one offering he hath perfected for ever them." STOP WORKING at it!
37. Heb. 10:17-18 - "There is no more offering for sin." So stop offering your good works.
38. 2 Cor. 1:9 - "We should not trust in ourselves, but in God," who has ALREADY paid the price.
39. 2 Cor. 1:10 - Christ "Delivered us from so great a death." He had to; we can't deliver ourselves.
40. Eph. 1:12-13 - You are saved by trusting in Christ, and, "After that believed, ye were SEALED."
41. Jer. 17:5 - "Cursed be the man that trusteth in man, and maketh flesh his arm."
42. Job 25:4 - "How then can man be justified with God? or how can he be clean that is born of a
woman?" (For God's answer, see #86, #63, #54, #33, #82, #80, #73, #5 and Isaiah 1:18)
43. Isa. 12:2 - "Behold, God is my salvation; I will trust." Don't trust good works, trust the Saviour.
44. Luke 18:9-14 - Jesus gives a parable teaching that self righteousness WILL NOT save a person.
45. Ezek. 33:13 - "If he trust to his own righteousness..." He better be perfectly sinless or else!
46. John 14:6 - Jesus said, "I am THE WAY...no man cometh unto the Father, BUT BY ME."
47. 1 Tim. 2:5-6 - There's ONLY "One mediator between God and men," Jesus Christ, not ourselves.
48. Col. 2:14 - Christ took our sin debt, "Nailing it to his cross." It's ALREADY paid for! (See #34-37)
49. John 19:30 - While on the cross, Christ said, "It is finished." It's paid. We don't have to work for it.
50. Matt. 11:28-30 - Christ offers "REST" to all those working at trying to earn their way to Heaven.
51. Isa. 53:4-6 - Christ was, "WOUNDED FOR OUR transgressions." Why? So WE don't have to be.
52. Heb. 4:9-10 - The person who accepts Christ as Saviour, "Hath CEASED from his own works."
53. Gal. 2:21 - If you could earn Heaven, why did Christ die? "Then Christ is dead in vain." (See #86, #8)
54. Rom. 3:20 - "Therefore by the deeds of the law there SHALL NO FLESH BE JUSTIFIED in his
sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin." (See #33, #14, #82, #80, #87, #42, #73)
55. Gal. 5:1-4 - "Christ hath made us free." He had to; we can't free ourselves, no matter how "good."
56. 2 Tim. 1:10 - "Our Saviour Jesus Christ, who hath abolished death," with no help from us.
57. 1 John 4:14 - Christ was sent, "To be the Saviour of the world"; we couldn't save ourselves.
58. 1 Tim. 4:10 - "The Saviour of ALL men." Why try to save yourself? You already have a Saviour.
59. Acts 16:30-31 - When the Philippian jailer asked, "What must I do to be saved?" Paul didn't say,
keep the Ten Commandments, but rather, "Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved."
60. Luke 7:49-50 - Christ told the woman: "Thy faith hath saved thee," not thy works! (See #1)
61. Eph. 1:7 - "Redemption through HIS BLOOD, the forgiveness of sins," not through our works.
62. 1 Pet. 1:3-5 - "According to his abundant MERCY," not according to our good deeds. (See #12)
63. Rev. 1:5 - Christ, "Washed us from our sins in his own blood"; can't wash ourselves with works.
64. Titus 3:7 - We are "Justified by his grace," not by our good deeds, baptism, or church membership.
65. Titus 2:11 - "The grace of God that BRINGETH SALVATION hath appeared to ALL MEN."
66. Eph. 4:32 - We are forgiven, "For Christ's sake," not because of our good behavior. (See #88)
67. Eph. 2:4-5 - "(By grace ye are saved)," not by works. The two don't mix according to Rom. 11:6.
68. Acts 26:18 - "Through this man [Christ]...forgiveness of sins," not through our efforts!
69. Heb. 7:25 - Only Christ is "Able to save." Only He can "Make INTERCESSION for them."



70. Rom. 3:10 - "There is none righteous, no, not one." So how can anyone save themselves?
71. Rom. 3:12 - "There is none that doeth good, no, not one." So how can anyone save themselves?
72. Eccl. 7:20 - "There is not a just man upon earth, that doeth good." Can anyone save themselves?
73. Rom. 4:25 - Christ has already died for our sins. He, "Was delivered for our offences and raised
again FOR OUR JUSTIFICATION." So what role does a person play in their own salvation?
74. Rom. 5:10 - "We are reconciled to God by the death of his Son," not by the fruits of our works.
75. John 6:28-29 - "Then said they unto him, WHAT SHALL WE DO, that we might work the works
of God? Jesus answered and said unto them, THIS IS THE WORK OF GOD, THAT YE BELIEVE
ON HIM whom he hath sent." (See #59, #22, #10, #53)
76. 1 Pet. 3:18 - "Suffered for us...that HE might bring us to God." Do we have to help Him save us?
Didn't He suffer enough to pay the price? Heb. 7:25 says He did. He saves to "The uttermost."
77. Matt. 5:20 - Your self-righteousness would have to surpass that of the Pharisees-- Impossible! (#70)
78. 1 John 2:2 - Christ, "Is the propitiation [payment]...for the sins of the whole world." If He can
pay for the sins of the whole world, why would He need our help in saving us-- mere individuals?
79. Rom. 8:8 - "They that are in the flesh cannot please God." So what chance does anyone have?
80. Rom. 3:23-25 - Through Christ's death we are "Justified freely" (made right with God). His death
provides: "Redemption" (we are bought back to God), "Propitiation" (a settlement of our sin debt),
"Remission [forgiveness] of sins." It's all by God's "Grace" not our works. (See #1, #35, #36, #78)
81. James 2:10-11 - "For whosoever shall keep the whole law, and yet offend in ONE POINT, he is
guilty of all." We can't possibly save ourselves; God demands sinless perfection. We need a Saviour.
82. Romans 5:8-9 - We are "Justified by his blood," not our good works. That's why "When we were
sinners, Christ died for us." Therefore, "We shall be saved from wrath through him."
83. Matt. 18:11 - Jesus came "To save that which was lost [us]." Why? Because we can't save ourselves.
Otherwise, why send Christ to die for our sins if we could pay for them ourselves? (See #53, #8, #86, #76)
84. Acts 15:10-11 - "Through the grace of the Lord Jesus Christ we shall be saved," not through
works. Grace is not works; works is not grace, as explained in Rom. 11:6 (see #90, #1, #53)
85. 2 Cor. 5:21 - "Christ was made sin for us...that we might be made the righteousness of God in
him." Why trust our own "righteousness" if God offers to impute us His righteousness? (Rom. 4:22-24)
86. Matt. 19:25-26 - "When his disciples heard it, they were exceedingly amazed, saying, WHO THEN
CAN BE SAVED? But Jesus beheld them, and said unto them, WITH MEN THIS IS IMPOSSIBLE;
but with God all things are possible." (See #8, #41, #42, #81, #11, #45, #70, #19)
87. Rom. 5:1 - "Therefore being JUSTIFIED BY FAITH, we have PEACE WITH GOD through our
Lord Jesus Christ." There can be no real peace when a person spends their life wondering if they have done
enough good works. Peace is knowing it's been paid for ALREADY. (See #52, #50, #26, #53)
88. 2 Tim. 1:9 - "Who hath saved us, and called us with an holy calling, NOT ACCORDING TO OUR
WORKS, but according to his own purpose and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus before the
world began." God had a "payment plan" ready before any of us were even alive to work!
89. Rom. 10:9-13 - "That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus [i.e. Repent], and shalt
believe in thine heart [i.e. Trust] that God hath raised him from the dead, THOU SHALT BE SAVED
...For whosoever shall CALL upon the name of the Lord SHALL BE SAVED." (See #15)
90. Rom. 11:6 - "And if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace."
91. Gal. 1:4, 92. Rom. 1:16, 93. Gal. 3:21, 94. Heb. 9:22, 95. 1 Tim. 2:6, 96. Acts 10:43,
97. Isa. 43:11, 98. Gal. 3:24, 99. Heb. 9:12-14, 100. 1 Tim. 1:15, 101. Heb. 6:1





IF you were to die today, are you 100% SURE
you would go to Heaven? The Bible says
YOU CAN BE SURE (1 John 5:13).
BUT FIRST, you must realize that what keeps you
from going to Heaven are your sins, because:
"...your iniquities [sins] have separated
between you and your God," Isaiah 59:2.
In fact, in God's eyes YOU ARE A SINNER: "For
all have sinned, and come short
of the glory of God;" Romans 3:23.

SECONDLY, you must realize that there is
NOTHING you can do to save yourself and earn
Heaven: "For by grace are ye saved through
faith; and that not of yourselves: it is
the gift of God: Not of works, lest any
man should boast." Eph. 2:8-9 Baptism, good
deeds, church membership, self-righteousness are
all examples of good works that cannot save you,
because: "Not by works of
righteousness which we have done, but
according to his mercy he [Christ] saved
us," Titus 3:5.

THE ONLY WAY you can get saved is through
Jesus Christ. He said: "I am the way, the
truth, and the life: no man cometh unto
the Father, but by me." (John 14:6) THAT'S
WHY: "...while we were yet sinners, Christ
died for us." (Rom. 5:8-9)

THEREFORE: You must REPENT (change your
mind); admit that you are a Hell deserving sinner
and can't save yourself. And call upon Christ, and
Him alone, to save you. "if thou shalt confess
with thy mouth the Lord Jesus [REPENT], and
shalt believe in thine heart [TRUST] that God
hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be
saved." Romans 10:9

The man hanging on the cross next to Jesus became a believer and was never baptized nor did anything for his new faith. Yet minutes later went to paradise with Jesus.

This is gonna be an all time classic. Here we go .............


---------------- Link?

I discount any of Paul's letters to anyone. Paul was not an Apostle, he never met Jesus, and Paul's words are not the words of Jesus.

"Faith without deeds is dead" were Jesus' words, not Paul's.

Bible Gateway passage: James 2:14-26 - New King James Version

Lol
That is ridiculous, he authored 13 books of the New Testament. Cherry-picking the Bible is only done by politically correct fools.

You need to educate yourself on the subject

 

[Rustic]

There are a number of verses in the Bible which, on their face, establish that justification is by faith alone and works are irrelevant . This are also a number of verses which say that we are judged by our works and that faith without works is dead. Some Christians believe in the former and others in the latter. That's just the way it is.

lol
“Works” Have absolutely nothing to do with salvation… If they did there would be no reason for the crucifixion of Christ.


1. Eph. 2:8-9 - "For BY GRACE are ye SAVED THROUGH FAITH; and that NOT OF
YOURSELVES: it is the GIFT of God: NOT OF WORKS, lest any man should boast."
2. Rom. 4:6-7 - God imputes "Righteousness without works." (See #9, #4, #45, #7, #12, #53)
3. Rom. 10:3 - It's a grave mistake for anyone to try to, "Establish their own righteousness."
4. Rom. 5:17 - Heaven deserving righteousness is a "GIFT," not something you earn.
5. Rom. 5:18 - Justification to God is a "FREE GIFT," not something you work toward.
6. Phil. 3:9 - Paul, as ‘good’ as he was, still wouldn't trust his "Own righteousness" to save him.
7. Rom. 3:22 - God's righteousness is credited to "ALL THEM THAT BELIEVE," not all that work.
8. Rom. 8:3-4 - The flesh is too "Weak" to save itself. We need a Saviour. We need Christ. (See #86)
9. Rom. 4:3 - Abraham's faith, not works, "Was counted unto him for righteousness."
10. Rom. 4:4-5 - Works are "Not reckoned of grace, but of debt." Faith is counted as righteousness.
11. Gal. 3:10 - To earn Heaven you'd have to "Continueth," perfectly, in the whole law. (See #81, #86)
12. Titus 3:5 - "NOT BY WORKS OF RIGHTEOUSNESS which we have done, but according to
his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost."
13. John 5:24 - In Christ we've "PASSED from death unto life." We don't have to "wait" to find out.
14. Rom. 9:31-32 - Israel, "Sought it not by faith, but as it were by the works of the law." (#33, #54)
15. Acts 4:12 - No other name but Christ can save us-- not the name of works, nor our own name.
16. John 1:12-13 - Only God's power, through His Son, makes us a child of God. We are not born into
God's family by "Blood" (heritage, family ‘pedigree’), "Nor will of the flesh" (good works), "Nor will
of man." (minister, or man made religion), "But of God." (See #12, #53, #21, #17, #22, #46, #15)
17. Isa. 45:22 - No one else can save a soul from Hell but God; "There is none else."
18. Acts 13:39 - "And by him [Christ] all that believe are justified from all things, from which ye
COULD NOT BE JUSTIFIED by the law of Moses." (See #33, #54, #53, #5, #42, #64, #82, #87, #80)
19. Rom. 8:7 - We can't follow God's law even if we wanted to. So how can we save ourselves? (#86, #8)
20. Matthew 7:21-23 - Christ describes a future scene in which some who are trusting in their "Many
wonderful works," will, sadly, be told by Christ: "I never knew you: depart from me, Ye that work
iniquity." Their good works will not save them. We all have to trust Christ, and Him ALONE. (#46, #12)
21. John 10:1 - We must enter through Christ, "THE DOOR," not by "Some other way.." (See #46)
22. John 8:24 - A person can work all they want, but it won't save them. Jesus said the bottom line is
that, "If ye believe not that I am he [the only way], ye shall die in your sins." (See #53 and #69)
23. Rom. 4:2 - If Abraham could have saved himself, he'd have something to brag about. (See #25, #1)
24. Acts 10:1-43 - Cornelius' good works would put anyone today to shame, yet he still had to get saved
by trusting solely in Christ to save him. (See #6, #12, #1, #88)
25. Rom. 3:27-28 - "Where is boasting then?...Of WORKS? nay." (See #1 and #23)
26. 1 John 5:13 - If your salvation depends on a lifetime of good works, then why does the Bible teach
that you could "KNOW" for sure, before you die, that you are going to Heaven? The answer is because
salvation doesn't depend on you, but on Christ, who ALREADY paid the price for your sins. (See #87)
27. Heb. 1:3 - "He had BY HIMSELF purged our sins." He doesn't need help from us! (See #15)
28. Heb. 2:3 - If we have to work at earning it, why does the Bible call it "So great salvation"?
29. Heb. 2:9-10 - Christ is "The CAPTAIN of their salvation." He tasted "Death for every man."
30. Heb. 2:14-15 - Christ is the one who will "DELIVER" us from death, not ourselves! (See #53)
31. Heb. 2:17 - Christ makes "RECONCILIATION for the sins." We can't reconcile ourselves.
32. Heb. 5:9 - Christ is "The AUTHOR of eternal salvation," not us! It's not in our hands.



33. Gal. 2:16 - "Knowing that a man IS NOT JUSTIFIED BY THE WORKS of the law, but by the
faith of Jesus Christ, ....that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and NOT by the WORKS
of the law: FOR BY THE WORKS OF THE LAW SHALL NO FLESH BE JUSTIFIED."
34. Heb. 9:28 - "Christ was once offered to bear the sins of many." God won't accept good works.
35. Heb. 10:10-12 - Christ's body was offered "Once for all." So stop insulting God with your works.
36. Heb. 10:14 - "For by one offering he hath perfected for ever them." STOP WORKING at it!
37. Heb. 10:17-18 - "There is no more offering for sin." So stop offering your good works.
38. 2 Cor. 1:9 - "We should not trust in ourselves, but in God," who has ALREADY paid the price.
39. 2 Cor. 1:10 - Christ "Delivered us from so great a death." He had to; we can't deliver ourselves.
40. Eph. 1:12-13 - You are saved by trusting in Christ, and, "After that believed, ye were SEALED."
41. Jer. 17:5 - "Cursed be the man that trusteth in man, and maketh flesh his arm."
42. Job 25:4 - "How then can man be justified with God? or how can he be clean that is born of a
woman?" (For God's answer, see #86, #63, #54, #33, #82, #80, #73, #5 and Isaiah 1:18)
43. Isa. 12:2 - "Behold, God is my salvation; I will trust." Don't trust good works, trust the Saviour.
44. Luke 18:9-14 - Jesus gives a parable teaching that self righteousness WILL NOT save a person.
45. Ezek. 33:13 - "If he trust to his own righteousness..." He better be perfectly sinless or else!
46. John 14:6 - Jesus said, "I am THE WAY...no man cometh unto the Father, BUT BY ME."
47. 1 Tim. 2:5-6 - There's ONLY "One mediator between God and men," Jesus Christ, not ourselves.
48. Col. 2:14 - Christ took our sin debt, "Nailing it to his cross." It's ALREADY paid for! (See #34-37)
49. John 19:30 - While on the cross, Christ said, "It is finished." It's paid. We don't have to work for it.
50. Matt. 11:28-30 - Christ offers "REST" to all those working at trying to earn their way to Heaven.
51. Isa. 53:4-6 - Christ was, "WOUNDED FOR OUR transgressions." Why? So WE don't have to be.
52. Heb. 4:9-10 - The person who accepts Christ as Saviour, "Hath CEASED from his own works."
53. Gal. 2:21 - If you could earn Heaven, why did Christ die? "Then Christ is dead in vain." (See #86, #8)
54. Rom. 3:20 - "Therefore by the deeds of the law there SHALL NO FLESH BE JUSTIFIED in his
sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin." (See #33, #14, #82, #80, #87, #42, #73)
55. Gal. 5:1-4 - "Christ hath made us free." He had to; we can't free ourselves, no matter how "good."
56. 2 Tim. 1:10 - "Our Saviour Jesus Christ, who hath abolished death," with no help from us.
57. 1 John 4:14 - Christ was sent, "To be the Saviour of the world"; we couldn't save ourselves.
58. 1 Tim. 4:10 - "The Saviour of ALL men." Why try to save yourself? You already have a Saviour.
59. Acts 16:30-31 - When the Philippian jailer asked, "What must I do to be saved?" Paul didn't say,
keep the Ten Commandments, but rather, "Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved."
60. Luke 7:49-50 - Christ told the woman: "Thy faith hath saved thee," not thy works! (See #1)
61. Eph. 1:7 - "Redemption through HIS BLOOD, the forgiveness of sins," not through our works.
62. 1 Pet. 1:3-5 - "According to his abundant MERCY," not according to our good deeds. (See #12)
63. Rev. 1:5 - Christ, "Washed us from our sins in his own blood"; can't wash ourselves with works.
64. Titus 3:7 - We are "Justified by his grace," not by our good deeds, baptism, or church membership.
65. Titus 2:11 - "The grace of God that BRINGETH SALVATION hath appeared to ALL MEN."
66. Eph. 4:32 - We are forgiven, "For Christ's sake," not because of our good behavior. (See #88)
67. Eph. 2:4-5 - "(By grace ye are saved)," not by works. The two don't mix according to Rom. 11:6.
68. Acts 26:18 - "Through this man [Christ]...forgiveness of sins," not through our efforts!
69. Heb. 7:25 - Only Christ is "Able to save." Only He can "Make INTERCESSION for them."



70. Rom. 3:10 - "There is none righteous, no, not one." So how can anyone save themselves?
71. Rom. 3:12 - "There is none that doeth good, no, not one." So how can anyone save themselves?
72. Eccl. 7:20 - "There is not a just man upon earth, that doeth good." Can anyone save themselves?
73. Rom. 4:25 - Christ has already died for our sins. He, "Was delivered for our offences and raised
again FOR OUR JUSTIFICATION." So what role does a person play in their own salvation?
74. Rom. 5:10 - "We are reconciled to God by the death of his Son," not by the fruits of our works.
75. John 6:28-29 - "Then said they unto him, WHAT SHALL WE DO, that we might work the works
of God? Jesus answered and said unto them, THIS IS THE WORK OF GOD, THAT YE BELIEVE
ON HIM whom he hath sent." (See #59, #22, #10, #53)
76. 1 Pet. 3:18 - "Suffered for us...that HE might bring us to God." Do we have to help Him save us?
Didn't He suffer enough to pay the price? Heb. 7:25 says He did. He saves to "The uttermost."
77. Matt. 5:20 - Your self-righteousness would have to surpass that of the Pharisees-- Impossible! (#70)
78. 1 John 2:2 - Christ, "Is the propitiation [payment]...for the sins of the whole world." If He can
pay for the sins of the whole world, why would He need our help in saving us-- mere individuals?
79. Rom. 8:8 - "They that are in the flesh cannot please God." So what chance does anyone have?
80. Rom. 3:23-25 - Through Christ's death we are "Justified freely" (made right with God). His death
provides: "Redemption" (we are bought back to God), "Propitiation" (a settlement of our sin debt),
"Remission [forgiveness] of sins." It's all by God's "Grace" not our works. (See #1, #35, #36, #78)
81. James 2:10-11 - "For whosoever shall keep the whole law, and yet offend in ONE POINT, he is
guilty of all." We can't possibly save ourselves; God demands sinless perfection. We need a Saviour.
82. Romans 5:8-9 - We are "Justified by his blood," not our good works. That's why "When we were
sinners, Christ died for us." Therefore, "We shall be saved from wrath through him."
83. Matt. 18:11 - Jesus came "To save that which was lost [us]." Why? Because we can't save ourselves.
Otherwise, why send Christ to die for our sins if we could pay for them ourselves? (See #53, #8, #86, #76)
84. Acts 15:10-11 - "Through the grace of the Lord Jesus Christ we shall be saved," not through
works. Grace is not works; works is not grace, as explained in Rom. 11:6 (see #90, #1, #53)
85. 2 Cor. 5:21 - "Christ was made sin for us...that we might be made the righteousness of God in
him." Why trust our own "righteousness" if God offers to impute us His righteousness? (Rom. 4:22-24)
86. Matt. 19:25-26 - "When his disciples heard it, they were exceedingly amazed, saying, WHO THEN
CAN BE SAVED? But Jesus beheld them, and said unto them, WITH MEN THIS IS IMPOSSIBLE;
but with God all things are possible." (See #8, #41, #42, #81, #11, #45, #70, #19)
87. Rom. 5:1 - "Therefore being JUSTIFIED BY FAITH, we have PEACE WITH GOD through our
Lord Jesus Christ." There can be no real peace when a person spends their life wondering if they have done
enough good works. Peace is knowing it's been paid for ALREADY. (See #52, #50, #26, #53)
88. 2 Tim. 1:9 - "Who hath saved us, and called us with an holy calling, NOT ACCORDING TO OUR
WORKS, but according to his own purpose and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus before the
world began." God had a "payment plan" ready before any of us were even alive to work!
89. Rom. 10:9-13 - "That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus [i.e. Repent], and shalt
believe in thine heart [i.e. Trust] that God hath raised him from the dead, THOU SHALT BE SAVED
...For whosoever shall CALL upon the name of the Lord SHALL BE SAVED." (See #15)
90. Rom. 11:6 - "And if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace."
91. Gal. 1:4, 92. Rom. 1:16, 93. Gal. 3:21, 94. Heb. 9:22, 95. 1 Tim. 2:6, 96. Acts 10:43,
97. Isa. 43:11, 98. Gal. 3:24, 99. Heb. 9:12-14, 100. 1 Tim. 1:15, 101. Heb. 6:1





IF you were to die today, are you 100% SURE
you would go to Heaven? The Bible says
YOU CAN BE SURE (1 John 5:13).
BUT FIRST, you must realize that what keeps you
from going to Heaven are your sins, because:
"...your iniquities [sins] have separated
between you and your God," Isaiah 59:2.
In fact, in God's eyes YOU ARE A SINNER: "For
all have sinned, and come short
of the glory of God;" Romans 3:23.

SECONDLY, you must realize that there is
NOTHING you can do to save yourself and earn
Heaven: "For by grace are ye saved through
faith; and that not of yourselves: it is
the gift of God: Not of works, lest any
man should boast." Eph. 2:8-9 Baptism, good
deeds, church membership, self-righteousness are
all examples of good works that cannot save you,
because: "Not by works of
righteousness which we have done, but
according to his mercy he [Christ] saved
us," Titus 3:5.

THE ONLY WAY you can get saved is through
Jesus Christ. He said: "I am the way, the
truth, and the life: no man cometh unto
the Father, but by me." (John 14:6) THAT'S
WHY: "...while we were yet sinners, Christ
died for us." (Rom. 5:8-9)

THEREFORE: You must REPENT (change your
mind); admit that you are a Hell deserving sinner
and can't save yourself. And call upon Christ, and
Him alone, to save you. "if thou shalt confess
with thy mouth the Lord Jesus [REPENT], and
shalt believe in thine heart [TRUST] that God
hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be
saved." Romans 10:9

The man hanging on the cross next to Jesus became a believer and was never baptized nor did anything for his new faith. Yet minutes later went to paradise with Jesus.

This is gonna be an all time classic. Here we go .............


---------------- Link?

Link? Hilarious. Here you are busy attempting to to reinterpret the Bible and you don’t even know Bible 101.

Luke 23:39-43

You do know that God has a special treat in store for those that conduct false teaching? No, you don’t. You didn’t even know about Luke 23:39-43. He does. Now you’ve been warned.

You should know this by now but when I say "Link?" it means I want a credible source to the assertion.

The Holey Babble is hardly a credible source. Accounts written down after thirty years of memory embellishment by those who may or may not have been in place to witness things that can't even be witnessed in the first place, and then edited at the Council of Nicea three centuries later, are about as credible as Jim Hoft.

Lol
Says a politically correct fool

 

[Rustic]

It's in the Bible: By their deeds, you will know them.

“Works” have nothing to do with salvation... that is in the Bible
Ephesians 2:8
“For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God”

There are a number of verses in the Bible which, on their face, establish that justification is by faith alone and works are irrelevant . This are also a number of verses which say that we are judged by our works and that faith without works is dead. Some Christians believe in the former and others in the latter. That's just the way it is.

lol
“Works” Have absolutely nothing to do with salvation… If they did there would be no reason for the crucifixion of Christ.


1. Eph. 2:8-9 - "For BY GRACE are ye SAVED THROUGH FAITH; and that NOT OF
YOURSELVES: it is the GIFT of God: NOT OF WORKS, lest any man should boast."
2. Rom. 4:6-7 - God imputes "Righteousness without works." (See #9, #4, #45, #7, #12, #53)
3. Rom. 10:3 - It's a grave mistake for anyone to try to, "Establish their own righteousness."
4. Rom. 5:17 - Heaven deserving righteousness is a "GIFT," not something you earn.
5. Rom. 5:18 - Justification to God is a "FREE GIFT," not something you work toward.
6. Phil. 3:9 - Paul, as ‘good’ as he was, still wouldn't trust his "Own righteousness" to save him.
7. Rom. 3:22 - God's righteousness is credited to "ALL THEM THAT BELIEVE," not all that work.
8. Rom. 8:3-4 - The flesh is too "Weak" to save itself. We need a Saviour. We need Christ. (See #86)
9. Rom. 4:3 - Abraham's faith, not works, "Was counted unto him for righteousness."
10. Rom. 4:4-5 - Works are "Not reckoned of grace, but of debt." Faith is counted as righteousness.
11. Gal. 3:10 - To earn Heaven you'd have to "Continueth," perfectly, in the whole law. (See #81, #86)
12. Titus 3:5 - "NOT BY WORKS OF RIGHTEOUSNESS which we have done, but according to
his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost."
13. John 5:24 - In Christ we've "PASSED from death unto life." We don't have to "wait" to find out.
14. Rom. 9:31-32 - Israel, "Sought it not by faith, but as it were by the works of the law." (#33, #54)
15. Acts 4:12 - No other name but Christ can save us-- not the name of works, nor our own name.
16. John 1:12-13 - Only God's power, through His Son, makes us a child of God. We are not born into
God's family by "Blood" (heritage, family ‘pedigree’), "Nor will of the flesh" (good works), "Nor will
of man." (minister, or man made religion), "But of God." (See #12, #53, #21, #17, #22, #46, #15)
17. Isa. 45:22 - No one else can save a soul from Hell but God; "There is none else."
18. Acts 13:39 - "And by him [Christ] all that believe are justified from all things, from which ye
COULD NOT BE JUSTIFIED by the law of Moses." (See #33, #54, #53, #5, #42, #64, #82, #87, #80)
19. Rom. 8:7 - We can't follow God's law even if we wanted to. So how can we save ourselves? (#86, #8)
20. Matthew 7:21-23 - Christ describes a future scene in which some who are trusting in their "Many
wonderful works," will, sadly, be told by Christ: "I never knew you: depart from me, Ye that work
iniquity." Their good works will not save them. We all have to trust Christ, and Him ALONE. (#46, #12)
21. John 10:1 - We must enter through Christ, "THE DOOR," not by "Some other way.." (See #46)
22. John 8:24 - A person can work all they want, but it won't save them. Jesus said the bottom line is
that, "If ye believe not that I am he [the only way], ye shall die in your sins." (See #53 and #69)
23. Rom. 4:2 - If Abraham could have saved himself, he'd have something to brag about. (See #25, #1)
24. Acts 10:1-43 - Cornelius' good works would put anyone today to shame, yet he still had to get saved
by trusting solely in Christ to save him. (See #6, #12, #1, #88)
25. Rom. 3:27-28 - "Where is boasting then?...Of WORKS? nay." (See #1 and #23)
26. 1 John 5:13 - If your salvation depends on a lifetime of good works, then why does the Bible teach
that you could "KNOW" for sure, before you die, that you are going to Heaven? The answer is because
salvation doesn't depend on you, but on Christ, who ALREADY paid the price for your sins. (See #87)
27. Heb. 1:3 - "He had BY HIMSELF purged our sins." He doesn't need help from us! (See #15)
28. Heb. 2:3 - If we have to work at earning it, why does the Bible call it "So great salvation"?
29. Heb. 2:9-10 - Christ is "The CAPTAIN of their salvation." He tasted "Death for every man."
30. Heb. 2:14-15 - Christ is the one who will "DELIVER" us from death, not ourselves! (See #53)
31. Heb. 2:17 - Christ makes "RECONCILIATION for the sins." We can't reconcile ourselves.
32. Heb. 5:9 - Christ is "The AUTHOR of eternal salvation," not us! It's not in our hands.



33. Gal. 2:16 - "Knowing that a man IS NOT JUSTIFIED BY THE WORKS of the law, but by the
faith of Jesus Christ, ....that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and NOT by the WORKS
of the law: FOR BY THE WORKS OF THE LAW SHALL NO FLESH BE JUSTIFIED."
34. Heb. 9:28 - "Christ was once offered to bear the sins of many." God won't accept good works.
35. Heb. 10:10-12 - Christ's body was offered "Once for all." So stop insulting God with your works.
36. Heb. 10:14 - "For by one offering he hath perfected for ever them." STOP WORKING at it!
37. Heb. 10:17-18 - "There is no more offering for sin." So stop offering your good works.
38. 2 Cor. 1:9 - "We should not trust in ourselves, but in God," who has ALREADY paid the price.
39. 2 Cor. 1:10 - Christ "Delivered us from so great a death." He had to; we can't deliver ourselves.
40. Eph. 1:12-13 - You are saved by trusting in Christ, and, "After that believed, ye were SEALED."
41. Jer. 17:5 - "Cursed be the man that trusteth in man, and maketh flesh his arm."
42. Job 25:4 - "How then can man be justified with God? or how can he be clean that is born of a
woman?" (For God's answer, see #86, #63, #54, #33, #82, #80, #73, #5 and Isaiah 1:18)
43. Isa. 12:2 - "Behold, God is my salvation; I will trust." Don't trust good works, trust the Saviour.
44. Luke 18:9-14 - Jesus gives a parable teaching that self righteousness WILL NOT save a person.
45. Ezek. 33:13 - "If he trust to his own righteousness..." He better be perfectly sinless or else!
46. John 14:6 - Jesus said, "I am THE WAY...no man cometh unto the Father, BUT BY ME."
47. 1 Tim. 2:5-6 - There's ONLY "One mediator between God and men," Jesus Christ, not ourselves.
48. Col. 2:14 - Christ took our sin debt, "Nailing it to his cross." It's ALREADY paid for! (See #34-37)
49. John 19:30 - While on the cross, Christ said, "It is finished." It's paid. We don't have to work for it.
50. Matt. 11:28-30 - Christ offers "REST" to all those working at trying to earn their way to Heaven.
51. Isa. 53:4-6 - Christ was, "WOUNDED FOR OUR transgressions." Why? So WE don't have to be.
52. Heb. 4:9-10 - The person who accepts Christ as Saviour, "Hath CEASED from his own works."
53. Gal. 2:21 - If you could earn Heaven, why did Christ die? "Then Christ is dead in vain." (See #86, #8)
54. Rom. 3:20 - "Therefore by the deeds of the law there SHALL NO FLESH BE JUSTIFIED in his
sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin." (See #33, #14, #82, #80, #87, #42, #73)
55. Gal. 5:1-4 - "Christ hath made us free." He had to; we can't free ourselves, no matter how "good."
56. 2 Tim. 1:10 - "Our Saviour Jesus Christ, who hath abolished death," with no help from us.
57. 1 John 4:14 - Christ was sent, "To be the Saviour of the world"; we couldn't save ourselves.
58. 1 Tim. 4:10 - "The Saviour of ALL men." Why try to save yourself? You already have a Saviour.
59. Acts 16:30-31 - When the Philippian jailer asked, "What must I do to be saved?" Paul didn't say,
keep the Ten Commandments, but rather, "Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved."
60. Luke 7:49-50 - Christ told the woman: "Thy faith hath saved thee," not thy works! (See #1)
61. Eph. 1:7 - "Redemption through HIS BLOOD, the forgiveness of sins," not through our works.
62. 1 Pet. 1:3-5 - "According to his abundant MERCY," not according to our good deeds. (See #12)
63. Rev. 1:5 - Christ, "Washed us from our sins in his own blood"; can't wash ourselves with works.
64. Titus 3:7 - We are "Justified by his grace," not by our good deeds, baptism, or church membership.
65. Titus 2:11 - "The grace of God that BRINGETH SALVATION hath appeared to ALL MEN."
66. Eph. 4:32 - We are forgiven, "For Christ's sake," not because of our good behavior. (See #88)
67. Eph. 2:4-5 - "(By grace ye are saved)," not by works. The two don't mix according to Rom. 11:6.
68. Acts 26:18 - "Through this man [Christ]...forgiveness of sins," not through our efforts!
69. Heb. 7:25 - Only Christ is "Able to save." Only He can "Make INTERCESSION for them."



70. Rom. 3:10 - "There is none righteous, no, not one." So how can anyone save themselves?
71. Rom. 3:12 - "There is none that doeth good, no, not one." So how can anyone save themselves?
72. Eccl. 7:20 - "There is not a just man upon earth, that doeth good." Can anyone save themselves?
73. Rom. 4:25 - Christ has already died for our sins. He, "Was delivered for our offences and raised
again FOR OUR JUSTIFICATION." So what role does a person play in their own salvation?
74. Rom. 5:10 - "We are reconciled to God by the death of his Son," not by the fruits of our works.
75. John 6:28-29 - "Then said they unto him, WHAT SHALL WE DO, that we might work the works
of God? Jesus answered and said unto them, THIS IS THE WORK OF GOD, THAT YE BELIEVE
ON HIM whom he hath sent." (See #59, #22, #10, #53)
76. 1 Pet. 3:18 - "Suffered for us...that HE might bring us to God." Do we have to help Him save us?
Didn't He suffer enough to pay the price? Heb. 7:25 says He did. He saves to "The uttermost."
77. Matt. 5:20 - Your self-righteousness would have to surpass that of the Pharisees-- Impossible! (#70)
78. 1 John 2:2 - Christ, "Is the propitiation [payment]...for the sins of the whole world." If He can
pay for the sins of the whole world, why would He need our help in saving us-- mere individuals?
79. Rom. 8:8 - "They that are in the flesh cannot please God." So what chance does anyone have?
80. Rom. 3:23-25 - Through Christ's death we are "Justified freely" (made right with God). His death
provides: "Redemption" (we are bought back to God), "Propitiation" (a settlement of our sin debt),
"Remission [forgiveness] of sins." It's all by God's "Grace" not our works. (See #1, #35, #36, #78)
81. James 2:10-11 - "For whosoever shall keep the whole law, and yet offend in ONE POINT, he is
guilty of all." We can't possibly save ourselves; God demands sinless perfection. We need a Saviour.
82. Romans 5:8-9 - We are "Justified by his blood," not our good works. That's why "When we were
sinners, Christ died for us." Therefore, "We shall be saved from wrath through him."
83. Matt. 18:11 - Jesus came "To save that which was lost [us]." Why? Because we can't save ourselves.
Otherwise, why send Christ to die for our sins if we could pay for them ourselves? (See #53, #8, #86, #76)
84. Acts 15:10-11 - "Through the grace of the Lord Jesus Christ we shall be saved," not through
works. Grace is not works; works is not grace, as explained in Rom. 11:6 (see #90, #1, #53)
85. 2 Cor. 5:21 - "Christ was made sin for us...that we might be made the righteousness of God in
him." Why trust our own "righteousness" if God offers to impute us His righteousness? (Rom. 4:22-24)
86. Matt. 19:25-26 - "When his disciples heard it, they were exceedingly amazed, saying, WHO THEN
CAN BE SAVED? But Jesus beheld them, and said unto them, WITH MEN THIS IS IMPOSSIBLE;
but with God all things are possible." (See #8, #41, #42, #81, #11, #45, #70, #19)
87. Rom. 5:1 - "Therefore being JUSTIFIED BY FAITH, we have PEACE WITH GOD through our
Lord Jesus Christ." There can be no real peace when a person spends their life wondering if they have done
enough good works. Peace is knowing it's been paid for ALREADY. (See #52, #50, #26, #53)
88. 2 Tim. 1:9 - "Who hath saved us, and called us with an holy calling, NOT ACCORDING TO OUR
WORKS, but according to his own purpose and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus before the
world began." God had a "payment plan" ready before any of us were even alive to work!
89. Rom. 10:9-13 - "That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus [i.e. Repent], and shalt
believe in thine heart [i.e. Trust] that God hath raised him from the dead, THOU SHALT BE SAVED
...For whosoever shall CALL upon the name of the Lord SHALL BE SAVED." (See #15)
90. Rom. 11:6 - "And if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace."
91. Gal. 1:4, 92. Rom. 1:16, 93. Gal. 3:21, 94. Heb. 9:22, 95. 1 Tim. 2:6, 96. Acts 10:43,
97. Isa. 43:11, 98. Gal. 3:24, 99. Heb. 9:12-14, 100. 1 Tim. 1:15, 101. Heb. 6:1





IF you were to die today, are you 100% SURE
you would go to Heaven? The Bible says
YOU CAN BE SURE (1 John 5:13).
BUT FIRST, you must realize that what keeps you
from going to Heaven are your sins, because:
"...your iniquities [sins] have separated
between you and your God," Isaiah 59:2.
In fact, in God's eyes YOU ARE A SINNER: "For
all have sinned, and come short
of the glory of God;" Romans 3:23.

SECONDLY, you must realize that there is
NOTHING you can do to save yourself and earn
Heaven: "For by grace are ye saved through
faith; and that not of yourselves: it is
the gift of God: Not of works, lest any
man should boast." Eph. 2:8-9 Baptism, good
deeds, church membership, self-righteousness are
all examples of good works that cannot save you,
because: "Not by works of
righteousness which we have done, but
according to his mercy he [Christ] saved
us," Titus 3:5.

THE ONLY WAY you can get saved is through
Jesus Christ. He said: "I am the way, the
truth, and the life: no man cometh unto
the Father, but by me." (John 14:6) THAT'S
WHY: "...while we were yet sinners, Christ
died for us." (Rom. 5:8-9)

THEREFORE: You must REPENT (change your
mind); admit that you are a Hell deserving sinner
and can't save yourself. And call upon Christ, and
Him alone, to save you. "if thou shalt confess
with thy mouth the Lord Jesus [REPENT], and
shalt believe in thine heart [TRUST] that God
hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be
saved." Romans 10:9

The man hanging on the cross next to Jesus became a believer and was never baptized nor did anything for his new faith. Yet minutes later went to paradise with Jesus.

This is gonna be an all time classic. Here we go .............


---------------- Link?

1. When our Lord and Master Jesus Christ said, ``Repent'' (Mt 4:17), he willed the entire life of believers to be one of repentance.
2. This word cannot be understood as referring to the sacrament of penance, that is, confession and satisfaction, as administered by the clergy.
3. Yet it does not mean solely inner repentance; such inner repentance is worthless unless it produces various outward mortification of the flesh.
4. The penalty of sin remains as long as the hatred of self (that is, true inner repentance), namely till our entrance into the kingdom of heaven.
5. The pope neither desires nor is able to remit any penalties except those imposed by his own authority or that of the canons.
6. The pope cannot remit any guilt, except by declaring and showing that it has been remitted by God; or, to be sure, by remitting guilt in cases reserved to his judgment. If his right to grant remission in these cases were disregarded, the guilt would certainly remain unforgiven.
7. God remits guilt to no one unless at the same time he humbles him in all things and makes him submissive to the vicar, the priest.
8. The penitential canons are imposed only on the living, and, according to the canons themselves, nothing should be imposed on the dying.
9. Therefore the Holy Spirit through the pope is kind to us insofar as the pope in his decrees always makes exception of the article of death and of necessity.
10. Those priests act ignorantly and wickedly who, in the case of the dying, reserve canonical penalties for purgatory.
11. Those tares of changing the canonical penalty to the penalty of purgatory were evidently sown while the bishops slept (Mt 13:25).
12. In former times canonical penalties were imposed, not after, but before absolution, as tests of true contrition.
13. The dying are freed by death from all penalties, are already dead as far as the canon laws are concerned, and have a right to be released from them.
14. Imperfect piety or love on the part of the dying person necessarily brings with it great fear; and the smaller the love, the greater the fear.
15. This fear or horror is sufficient in itself, to say nothing of other things, to constitute the penalty of purgatory, since it is very near to the horror of despair.
16. Hell, purgatory, and heaven seem to differ the same as despair, fear, and assurance of salvation.
17. It seems as though for the souls in purgatory fear should necessarily decrease and love increase.
18. Furthermore, it does not seem proved, either by reason or by Scripture, that souls in purgatory are outside the state of merit, that is, unable to grow in love.
19. Nor does it seem proved that souls in purgatory, at least not all of them, are certain and assured of their own salvation, even if we ourselves may be entirely certain of it.
20. Therefore the pope, when he uses the words ``plenary remission of all penalties,'' does not actually mean ``all penalties,'' but only those imposed by himself.
21. Thus those indulgence preachers are in error who say that a man is absolved from every penalty and saved by papal indulgences.
22. As a matter of fact, the pope remits to souls in purgatory no penalty which, according to canon law, they should have paid in this life.
23. If remission of all penalties whatsoever could be granted to anyone at all, certainly it would be granted only to the most perfect, that is, to very few.
24. For this reason most people are necessarily deceived by that indiscriminate and high-sounding promise of release from penalty.
25. That power which the pope has in general over purgatory corresponds to the power which any bishop or curate has in a particular way in his own diocese and parish.
26. The pope does very well when he grants remission to souls in purgatory, not by the power of the keys, which he does not have, but by way of intercession for them.
27. They preach only human doctrines who say that as soon as the money clinks into the money chest, the soul flies out of purgatory.
28. It is certain that when money clinks in the money chest, greed and avarice can be increased; but when the church intercedes, the result is in the hands of God alone.
29. Who knows whether all souls in purgatory wish to be redeemed, since we have exceptions in St. Severinus and St. Paschal, as related in a legend.
30. No one is sure of the integrity of his own contrition, much less of having received plenary remission.
31. The man who actually buys indulgences is as rare as he who is really penitent; indeed, he is exceedingly rare.
32. Those who believe that they can be certain of their salvation because they have indulgence letters will be eternally damned, together with their teachers.
33. Men must especially be on guard against those who say that the pope's pardons are that inestimable gift of God by which man is reconciled to him.
34. For the graces of indulgences are concerned only with the penalties of sacramental satisfaction established by man.
35. They who teach that contrition is not necessary on the part of those who intend to buy souls out of purgatory or to buy confessional privileges preach unchristian doctrine.
36. Any truly repentant Christian has a right to full remission of penalty and guilt, even without indulgence letters.
37. Any true Christian, whether living or dead, participates in all the blessings of Christ and the church; and this is granted him by God, even without indulgence letters.
38. Nevertheless, papal remission and blessing are by no means to be disregarded, for they are, as I have said (Thesis 6), the proclamation of the divine remission.
39. It is very difficult, even for the most learned theologians, at one and the same time to commend to the people the bounty of indulgences and the need of true contrition.
40. A Christian who is truly contrite seeks and loves to pay penalties for his sins; the bounty of indulgences, however, relaxes penalties and causes men to hate them -- at least it furnishes occasion for hating them.
41. Papal indulgences must be preached with caution, lest people erroneously think that they are preferable to other good works of love.
42. Christians are to be taught that the pope does not intend that the buying of indulgences should in any way be compared with works of mercy.
43. Christians are to be taught that he who gives to the poor or lends to the needy does a better deed than he who buys indulgences.
44. Because love grows by works of love, man thereby becomes better. Man does not, however, become better by means of indulgences but is merely freed from penalties.
45. Christians are to be taught that he who sees a needy man and passes him by, yet gives his money for indulgences, does not buy papal indulgences but God's wrath.
46. Christians are to be taught that, unless they have more than they need, they must reserve enough for their family needs and by no means squander it on indulgences.
47. Christians are to be taught that they buying of indulgences is a matter of free choice, not commanded.
48. Christians are to be taught that the pope, in granting indulgences, needs and thus desires their devout prayer more than their money.
49. Christians are to be taught that papal indulgences are useful only if they do not put their trust in them, but very harmful if they lose their fear of God because of them.
50. Christians are to be taught that if the pope knew the exactions of the indulgence preachers, he would rather that the basilica of St. Peter were burned to ashes than built up with the skin, flesh, and bones of his sheep.
51. Christians are to be taught that the pope would and should wish to give of his own money, even though he had to sell the basilica of St. Peter, to many of those from whom certain hawkers of indulgences cajole money.
52. It is vain to trust in salvation by indulgence letters, even though the indulgence commissary, or even the pope, were to offer his soul as security.
53. They are the enemies of Christ and the pope who forbid altogether the preaching of the Word of God in some churches in order that indulgences may be preached in others.
54. Injury is done to the Word of God when, in the same sermon, an equal or larger amount of time is devoted to indulgences than to the Word.
55. It is certainly the pope's sentiment that if indulgences, which are a very insignificant thing, are celebrated with one bell, one procession, and one ceremony, then the gospel, which is the very greatest thing, should be preached with a hundred bells, a hundred processions, a hundred ceremonies.
56. The true treasures of the church, out of which the pope distributes indulgences, are not sufficiently discussed or known among the people of Christ.
57. That indulgences are not temporal treasures is certainly clear, for many indulgence sellers do not distribute them freely but only gather them.
58. Nor are they the merits of Christ and the saints, for, even without the pope, the latter always work grace for the inner man, and the cross, death, and hell for the outer man.
59. St. Lawrence said that the poor of the church were the treasures of the church, but he spoke according to the usage of the word in his own time.
60. Without want of consideration we say that the keys of the church, given by the merits of Christ, are that treasure.
61. For it is clear that the pope's power is of itself sufficient for the remission of penalties and cases reserved by himself.
62. The true treasure of the church is the most holy gospel of the glory and grace of God.
63. But this treasure is naturally most odious, for it makes the first to be last (Mt. 20:16).
64. On the other hand, the treasure of indulgences is naturally most acceptable, for it makes the last to be first.
65. Therefore the treasures of the gospel are nets with which one formerly fished for men of wealth.
66. The treasures of indulgences are nets with which one now fishes for the wealth of men.
67. The indulgences which the demagogues acclaim as the greatest graces are actually understood to be such only insofar as they promote gain.
68. They are nevertheless in truth the most insignificant graces when compared with the grace of God and the piety of the cross.
69. Bishops and curates are bound to admit the commissaries of papal indulgences with all reverence.
70. But they are much more bound to strain their eyes and ears lest these men preach their own dreams instead of what the pope has commissioned.
71. Let him who speaks against the truth concerning papal indulgences be anathema and accursed.
72. But let him who guards against the lust and license of the indulgence preachers be blessed.
73. Just as the pope justly thunders against those who by any means whatever contrive harm to the sale of indulgences.
74. Much more does he intend to thunder against those who use indulgences as a pretext to contrive harm to holy love and truth.
75. To consider papal indulgences so great that they could absolve a man even if he had done the impossible and had violated the mother of God is madness.
76. We say on the contrary that papal indulgences cannot remove the very least of venial sins as far as guilt is concerned.
77. To say that even St. Peter if he were now pope, could not grant greater graces is blasphemy against St. Peter and the pope.
78. We say on the contrary that even the present pope, or any pope whatsoever, has greater graces at his disposal, that is, the gospel, spiritual powers, gifts of healing, etc., as it is written. (1 Co 12[:28])
79. To say that the cross emblazoned with the papal coat of arms, and set up by the indulgence preachers is equal in worth to the cross of Christ is blasphemy.
80. The bishops, curates, and theologians who permit such talk to be spread among the people will have to answer for this.
81. This unbridled preaching of indulgences makes it difficult even for learned men to rescue the reverence which is due the pope from slander or from the shrewd questions of the laity.
82. Such as: ``Why does not the pope empty purgatory for the sake of holy love and the dire need of the souls that are there if he redeems an infinite number of souls for the sake of miserable money with which to build a church?'' The former reason would be most just; the latter is most trivial.
83. Again, ``Why are funeral and anniversary masses for the dead continued and why does he not return or permit the withdrawal of the endowments founded for them, since it is wrong to pray for the redeemed?''
84. Again, ``What is this new piety of God and the pope that for a consideration of money they permit a man who is impious and their enemy to buy out of purgatory the pious soul of a friend of God and do not rather, beca use of the need of that pious and beloved soul, free it for pure love's sake?''
85. Again, ``Why are the penitential canons, long since abrogated and dead in actual fact and through disuse, now satisfied by the granting of indulgences as though they were still alive and in force?''
86. Again, ``Why does not the pope, whose wealth is today greater than the wealth of the richest Crassus, build this one basilica of St. Peter with his own money rather than with the money of poor believers?''
87. Again, ``What does the pope remit or grant to those who by perfect contrition already have a right to full remission and blessings?''
88. Again, ``What greater blessing could come to the church than if the pope were to bestow these remissions and blessings on every believer a hundred times a day, as he now does but once?''
89. ``Since the pope seeks the salvation of souls rather than money by his indulgences, why does he suspend the indulgences and pardons previously granted when they have equal efficacy?''
90. To repress these very sharp arguments of the laity by force alone, and not to resolve them by giving reasons, is to expose the church and the pope to the ridicule of their enemies and to make Christians unhappy.
91. If, therefore, indulgences were preached according to the spirit and intention of the pope, all these doubts would be readily resolved. Indeed, they would not exist.
92. Away, then, with all those prophets who say to the people of Christ, ``Peace, peace,'' and there is no peace! (Jer 6:14)
93. Blessed be all those prophets who say to the people of Christ, ``Cross, cross,'' and there is no cross!
94. Christians should be exhorted to be diligent in following Christ, their Head, through penalties, death and hell.
95. And thus be confident of entering into heaven through many tribulations rather than through the false security of peace (Acts 14:22).

 

[Weatherman2020]

“Works” have nothing to do with salvation... that is in the Bible
Ephesians 2:8
“For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God”

There are a number of verses in the Bible which, on their face, establish that justification is by faith alone and works are irrelevant . This are also a number of verses which say that we are judged by our works and that faith without works is dead. Some Christians believe in the former and others in the latter. That's just the way it is.

lol
“Works” Have absolutely nothing to do with salvation… If they did there would be no reason for the crucifixion of Christ.


1. Eph. 2:8-9 - "For BY GRACE are ye SAVED THROUGH FAITH; and that NOT OF
YOURSELVES: it is the GIFT of God: NOT OF WORKS, lest any man should boast."
2. Rom. 4:6-7 - God imputes "Righteousness without works." (See #9, #4, #45, #7, #12, #53)
3. Rom. 10:3 - It's a grave mistake for anyone to try to, "Establish their own righteousness."
4. Rom. 5:17 - Heaven deserving righteousness is a "GIFT," not something you earn.
5. Rom. 5:18 - Justification to God is a "FREE GIFT," not something you work toward.
6. Phil. 3:9 - Paul, as ‘good’ as he was, still wouldn't trust his "Own righteousness" to save him.
7. Rom. 3:22 - God's righteousness is credited to "ALL THEM THAT BELIEVE," not all that work.
8. Rom. 8:3-4 - The flesh is too "Weak" to save itself. We need a Saviour. We need Christ. (See #86)
9. Rom. 4:3 - Abraham's faith, not works, "Was counted unto him for righteousness."
10. Rom. 4:4-5 - Works are "Not reckoned of grace, but of debt." Faith is counted as righteousness.
11. Gal. 3:10 - To earn Heaven you'd have to "Continueth," perfectly, in the whole law. (See #81, #86)
12. Titus 3:5 - "NOT BY WORKS OF RIGHTEOUSNESS which we have done, but according to
his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost."
13. John 5:24 - In Christ we've "PASSED from death unto life." We don't have to "wait" to find out.
14. Rom. 9:31-32 - Israel, "Sought it not by faith, but as it were by the works of the law." (#33, #54)
15. Acts 4:12 - No other name but Christ can save us-- not the name of works, nor our own name.
16. John 1:12-13 - Only God's power, through His Son, makes us a child of God. We are not born into
God's family by "Blood" (heritage, family ‘pedigree’), "Nor will of the flesh" (good works), "Nor will
of man." (minister, or man made religion), "But of God." (See #12, #53, #21, #17, #22, #46, #15)
17. Isa. 45:22 - No one else can save a soul from Hell but God; "There is none else."
18. Acts 13:39 - "And by him [Christ] all that believe are justified from all things, from which ye
COULD NOT BE JUSTIFIED by the law of Moses." (See #33, #54, #53, #5, #42, #64, #82, #87, #80)
19. Rom. 8:7 - We can't follow God's law even if we wanted to. So how can we save ourselves? (#86, #8)
20. Matthew 7:21-23 - Christ describes a future scene in which some who are trusting in their "Many
wonderful works," will, sadly, be told by Christ: "I never knew you: depart from me, Ye that work
iniquity." Their good works will not save them. We all have to trust Christ, and Him ALONE. (#46, #12)
21. John 10:1 - We must enter through Christ, "THE DOOR," not by "Some other way.." (See #46)
22. John 8:24 - A person can work all they want, but it won't save them. Jesus said the bottom line is
that, "If ye believe not that I am he [the only way], ye shall die in your sins." (See #53 and #69)
23. Rom. 4:2 - If Abraham could have saved himself, he'd have something to brag about. (See #25, #1)
24. Acts 10:1-43 - Cornelius' good works would put anyone today to shame, yet he still had to get saved
by trusting solely in Christ to save him. (See #6, #12, #1, #88)
25. Rom. 3:27-28 - "Where is boasting then?...Of WORKS? nay." (See #1 and #23)
26. 1 John 5:13 - If your salvation depends on a lifetime of good works, then why does the Bible teach
that you could "KNOW" for sure, before you die, that you are going to Heaven? The answer is because
salvation doesn't depend on you, but on Christ, who ALREADY paid the price for your sins. (See #87)
27. Heb. 1:3 - "He had BY HIMSELF purged our sins." He doesn't need help from us! (See #15)
28. Heb. 2:3 - If we have to work at earning it, why does the Bible call it "So great salvation"?
29. Heb. 2:9-10 - Christ is "The CAPTAIN of their salvation." He tasted "Death for every man."
30. Heb. 2:14-15 - Christ is the one who will "DELIVER" us from death, not ourselves! (See #53)
31. Heb. 2:17 - Christ makes "RECONCILIATION for the sins." We can't reconcile ourselves.
32. Heb. 5:9 - Christ is "The AUTHOR of eternal salvation," not us! It's not in our hands.



33. Gal. 2:16 - "Knowing that a man IS NOT JUSTIFIED BY THE WORKS of the law, but by the
faith of Jesus Christ, ....that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and NOT by the WORKS
of the law: FOR BY THE WORKS OF THE LAW SHALL NO FLESH BE JUSTIFIED."
34. Heb. 9:28 - "Christ was once offered to bear the sins of many." God won't accept good works.
35. Heb. 10:10-12 - Christ's body was offered "Once for all." So stop insulting God with your works.
36. Heb. 10:14 - "For by one offering he hath perfected for ever them." STOP WORKING at it!
37. Heb. 10:17-18 - "There is no more offering for sin." So stop offering your good works.
38. 2 Cor. 1:9 - "We should not trust in ourselves, but in God," who has ALREADY paid the price.
39. 2 Cor. 1:10 - Christ "Delivered us from so great a death." He had to; we can't deliver ourselves.
40. Eph. 1:12-13 - You are saved by trusting in Christ, and, "After that believed, ye were SEALED."
41. Jer. 17:5 - "Cursed be the man that trusteth in man, and maketh flesh his arm."
42. Job 25:4 - "How then can man be justified with God? or how can he be clean that is born of a
woman?" (For God's answer, see #86, #63, #54, #33, #82, #80, #73, #5 and Isaiah 1:18)
43. Isa. 12:2 - "Behold, God is my salvation; I will trust." Don't trust good works, trust the Saviour.
44. Luke 18:9-14 - Jesus gives a parable teaching that self righteousness WILL NOT save a person.
45. Ezek. 33:13 - "If he trust to his own righteousness..." He better be perfectly sinless or else!
46. John 14:6 - Jesus said, "I am THE WAY...no man cometh unto the Father, BUT BY ME."
47. 1 Tim. 2:5-6 - There's ONLY "One mediator between God and men," Jesus Christ, not ourselves.
48. Col. 2:14 - Christ took our sin debt, "Nailing it to his cross." It's ALREADY paid for! (See #34-37)
49. John 19:30 - While on the cross, Christ said, "It is finished." It's paid. We don't have to work for it.
50. Matt. 11:28-30 - Christ offers "REST" to all those working at trying to earn their way to Heaven.
51. Isa. 53:4-6 - Christ was, "WOUNDED FOR OUR transgressions." Why? So WE don't have to be.
52. Heb. 4:9-10 - The person who accepts Christ as Saviour, "Hath CEASED from his own works."
53. Gal. 2:21 - If you could earn Heaven, why did Christ die? "Then Christ is dead in vain." (See #86, #8)
54. Rom. 3:20 - "Therefore by the deeds of the law there SHALL NO FLESH BE JUSTIFIED in his
sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin." (See #33, #14, #82, #80, #87, #42, #73)
55. Gal. 5:1-4 - "Christ hath made us free." He had to; we can't free ourselves, no matter how "good."
56. 2 Tim. 1:10 - "Our Saviour Jesus Christ, who hath abolished death," with no help from us.
57. 1 John 4:14 - Christ was sent, "To be the Saviour of the world"; we couldn't save ourselves.
58. 1 Tim. 4:10 - "The Saviour of ALL men." Why try to save yourself? You already have a Saviour.
59. Acts 16:30-31 - When the Philippian jailer asked, "What must I do to be saved?" Paul didn't say,
keep the Ten Commandments, but rather, "Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved."
60. Luke 7:49-50 - Christ told the woman: "Thy faith hath saved thee," not thy works! (See #1)
61. Eph. 1:7 - "Redemption through HIS BLOOD, the forgiveness of sins," not through our works.
62. 1 Pet. 1:3-5 - "According to his abundant MERCY," not according to our good deeds. (See #12)
63. Rev. 1:5 - Christ, "Washed us from our sins in his own blood"; can't wash ourselves with works.
64. Titus 3:7 - We are "Justified by his grace," not by our good deeds, baptism, or church membership.
65. Titus 2:11 - "The grace of God that BRINGETH SALVATION hath appeared to ALL MEN."
66. Eph. 4:32 - We are forgiven, "For Christ's sake," not because of our good behavior. (See #88)
67. Eph. 2:4-5 - "(By grace ye are saved)," not by works. The two don't mix according to Rom. 11:6.
68. Acts 26:18 - "Through this man [Christ]...forgiveness of sins," not through our efforts!
69. Heb. 7:25 - Only Christ is "Able to save." Only He can "Make INTERCESSION for them."



70. Rom. 3:10 - "There is none righteous, no, not one." So how can anyone save themselves?
71. Rom. 3:12 - "There is none that doeth good, no, not one." So how can anyone save themselves?
72. Eccl. 7:20 - "There is not a just man upon earth, that doeth good." Can anyone save themselves?
73. Rom. 4:25 - Christ has already died for our sins. He, "Was delivered for our offences and raised
again FOR OUR JUSTIFICATION." So what role does a person play in their own salvation?
74. Rom. 5:10 - "We are reconciled to God by the death of his Son," not by the fruits of our works.
75. John 6:28-29 - "Then said they unto him, WHAT SHALL WE DO, that we might work the works
of God? Jesus answered and said unto them, THIS IS THE WORK OF GOD, THAT YE BELIEVE
ON HIM whom he hath sent." (See #59, #22, #10, #53)
76. 1 Pet. 3:18 - "Suffered for us...that HE might bring us to God." Do we have to help Him save us?
Didn't He suffer enough to pay the price? Heb. 7:25 says He did. He saves to "The uttermost."
77. Matt. 5:20 - Your self-righteousness would have to surpass that of the Pharisees-- Impossible! (#70)
78. 1 John 2:2 - Christ, "Is the propitiation [payment]...for the sins of the whole world." If He can
pay for the sins of the whole world, why would He need our help in saving us-- mere individuals?
79. Rom. 8:8 - "They that are in the flesh cannot please God." So what chance does anyone have?
80. Rom. 3:23-25 - Through Christ's death we are "Justified freely" (made right with God). His death
provides: "Redemption" (we are bought back to God), "Propitiation" (a settlement of our sin debt),
"Remission [forgiveness] of sins." It's all by God's "Grace" not our works. (See #1, #35, #36, #78)
81. James 2:10-11 - "For whosoever shall keep the whole law, and yet offend in ONE POINT, he is
guilty of all." We can't possibly save ourselves; God demands sinless perfection. We need a Saviour.
82. Romans 5:8-9 - We are "Justified by his blood," not our good works. That's why "When we were
sinners, Christ died for us." Therefore, "We shall be saved from wrath through him."
83. Matt. 18:11 - Jesus came "To save that which was lost [us]." Why? Because we can't save ourselves.
Otherwise, why send Christ to die for our sins if we could pay for them ourselves? (See #53, #8, #86, #76)
84. Acts 15:10-11 - "Through the grace of the Lord Jesus Christ we shall be saved," not through
works. Grace is not works; works is not grace, as explained in Rom. 11:6 (see #90, #1, #53)
85. 2 Cor. 5:21 - "Christ was made sin for us...that we might be made the righteousness of God in
him." Why trust our own "righteousness" if God offers to impute us His righteousness? (Rom. 4:22-24)
86. Matt. 19:25-26 - "When his disciples heard it, they were exceedingly amazed, saying, WHO THEN
CAN BE SAVED? But Jesus beheld them, and said unto them, WITH MEN THIS IS IMPOSSIBLE;
but with God all things are possible." (See #8, #41, #42, #81, #11, #45, #70, #19)
87. Rom. 5:1 - "Therefore being JUSTIFIED BY FAITH, we have PEACE WITH GOD through our
Lord Jesus Christ." There can be no real peace when a person spends their life wondering if they have done
enough good works. Peace is knowing it's been paid for ALREADY. (See #52, #50, #26, #53)
88. 2 Tim. 1:9 - "Who hath saved us, and called us with an holy calling, NOT ACCORDING TO OUR
WORKS, but according to his own purpose and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus before the
world began." God had a "payment plan" ready before any of us were even alive to work!
89. Rom. 10:9-13 - "That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus [i.e. Repent], and shalt
believe in thine heart [i.e. Trust] that God hath raised him from the dead, THOU SHALT BE SAVED
...For whosoever shall CALL upon the name of the Lord SHALL BE SAVED." (See #15)
90. Rom. 11:6 - "And if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace."
91. Gal. 1:4, 92. Rom. 1:16, 93. Gal. 3:21, 94. Heb. 9:22, 95. 1 Tim. 2:6, 96. Acts 10:43,
97. Isa. 43:11, 98. Gal. 3:24, 99. Heb. 9:12-14, 100. 1 Tim. 1:15, 101. Heb. 6:1





IF you were to die today, are you 100% SURE
you would go to Heaven? The Bible says
YOU CAN BE SURE (1 John 5:13).
BUT FIRST, you must realize that what keeps you
from going to Heaven are your sins, because:
"...your iniquities [sins] have separated
between you and your God," Isaiah 59:2.
In fact, in God's eyes YOU ARE A SINNER: "For
all have sinned, and come short
of the glory of God;" Romans 3:23.

SECONDLY, you must realize that there is
NOTHING you can do to save yourself and earn
Heaven: "For by grace are ye saved through
faith; and that not of yourselves: it is
the gift of God: Not of works, lest any
man should boast." Eph. 2:8-9 Baptism, good
deeds, church membership, self-righteousness are
all examples of good works that cannot save you,
because: "Not by works of
righteousness which we have done, but
according to his mercy he [Christ] saved
us," Titus 3:5.

THE ONLY WAY you can get saved is through
Jesus Christ. He said: "I am the way, the
truth, and the life: no man cometh unto
the Father, but by me." (John 14:6) THAT'S
WHY: "...while we were yet sinners, Christ
died for us." (Rom. 5:8-9)

THEREFORE: You must REPENT (change your
mind); admit that you are a Hell deserving sinner
and can't save yourself. And call upon Christ, and
Him alone, to save you. "if thou shalt confess
with thy mouth the Lord Jesus [REPENT], and
shalt believe in thine heart [TRUST] that God
hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be
saved." Romans 10:9

The man hanging on the cross next to Jesus became a believer and was never baptized nor did anything for his new faith. Yet minutes later went to paradise with Jesus.

This is gonna be an all time classic. Here we go .............


---------------- Link?

1. When our Lord and Master Jesus Christ said, ``Repent'' (Mt 4:17), he willed the entire life of believers to be one of repentance.
2. This word cannot be understood as referring to the sacrament of penance, that is, confession and satisfaction, as administered by the clergy.
3. Yet it does not mean solely inner repentance; such inner repentance is worthless unless it produces various outward mortification of the flesh.
4. The penalty of sin remains as long as the hatred of self (that is, true inner repentance), namely till our entrance into the kingdom of heaven.
5. The pope neither desires nor is able to remit any penalties except those imposed by his own authority or that of the canons.
6. The pope cannot remit any guilt, except by declaring and showing that it has been remitted by God; or, to be sure, by remitting guilt in cases reserved to his judgment. If his right to grant remission in these cases were disregarded, the guilt would certainly remain unforgiven.
7. God remits guilt to no one unless at the same time he humbles him in all things and makes him submissive to the vicar, the priest.
8. The penitential canons are imposed only on the living, and, according to the canons themselves, nothing should be imposed on the dying.
9. Therefore the Holy Spirit through the pope is kind to us insofar as the pope in his decrees always makes exception of the article of death and of necessity.
10. Those priests act ignorantly and wickedly who, in the case of the dying, reserve canonical penalties for purgatory.
11. Those tares of changing the canonical penalty to the penalty of purgatory were evidently sown while the bishops slept (Mt 13:25).
12. In former times canonical penalties were imposed, not after, but before absolution, as tests of true contrition.
13. The dying are freed by death from all penalties, are already dead as far as the canon laws are concerned, and have a right to be released from them.
14. Imperfect piety or love on the part of the dying person necessarily brings with it great fear; and the smaller the love, the greater the fear.
15. This fear or horror is sufficient in itself, to say nothing of other things, to constitute the penalty of purgatory, since it is very near to the horror of despair.
16. Hell, purgatory, and heaven seem to differ the same as despair, fear, and assurance of salvation.
17. It seems as though for the souls in purgatory fear should necessarily decrease and love increase.
18. Furthermore, it does not seem proved, either by reason or by Scripture, that souls in purgatory are outside the state of merit, that is, unable to grow in love.
19. Nor does it seem proved that souls in purgatory, at least not all of them, are certain and assured of their own salvation, even if we ourselves may be entirely certain of it.
20. Therefore the pope, when he uses the words ``plenary remission of all penalties,'' does not actually mean ``all penalties,'' but only those imposed by himself.
21. Thus those indulgence preachers are in error who say that a man is absolved from every penalty and saved by papal indulgences.
22. As a matter of fact, the pope remits to souls in purgatory no penalty which, according to canon law, they should have paid in this life.
23. If remission of all penalties whatsoever could be granted to anyone at all, certainly it would be granted only to the most perfect, that is, to very few.
24. For this reason most people are necessarily deceived by that indiscriminate and high-sounding promise of release from penalty.
25. That power which the pope has in general over purgatory corresponds to the power which any bishop or curate has in a particular way in his own diocese and parish.
26. The pope does very well when he grants remission to souls in purgatory, not by the power of the keys, which he does not have, but by way of intercession for them.
27. They preach only human doctrines who say that as soon as the money clinks into the money chest, the soul flies out of purgatory.
28. It is certain that when money clinks in the money chest, greed and avarice can be increased; but when the church intercedes, the result is in the hands of God alone.
29. Who knows whether all souls in purgatory wish to be redeemed, since we have exceptions in St. Severinus and St. Paschal, as related in a legend.
30. No one is sure of the integrity of his own contrition, much less of having received plenary remission.
31. The man who actually buys indulgences is as rare as he who is really penitent; indeed, he is exceedingly rare.
32. Those who believe that they can be certain of their salvation because they have indulgence letters will be eternally damned, together with their teachers.
33. Men must especially be on guard against those who say that the pope's pardons are that inestimable gift of God by which man is reconciled to him.
34. For the graces of indulgences are concerned only with the penalties of sacramental satisfaction established by man.
35. They who teach that contrition is not necessary on the part of those who intend to buy souls out of purgatory or to buy confessional privileges preach unchristian doctrine.
36. Any truly repentant Christian has a right to full remission of penalty and guilt, even without indulgence letters.
37. Any true Christian, whether living or dead, participates in all the blessings of Christ and the church; and this is granted him by God, even without indulgence letters.
38. Nevertheless, papal remission and blessing are by no means to be disregarded, for they are, as I have said (Thesis 6), the proclamation of the divine remission.
39. It is very difficult, even for the most learned theologians, at one and the same time to commend to the people the bounty of indulgences and the need of true contrition.
40. A Christian who is truly contrite seeks and loves to pay penalties for his sins; the bounty of indulgences, however, relaxes penalties and causes men to hate them -- at least it furnishes occasion for hating them.
41. Papal indulgences must be preached with caution, lest people erroneously think that they are preferable to other good works of love.
42. Christians are to be taught that the pope does not intend that the buying of indulgences should in any way be compared with works of mercy.
43. Christians are to be taught that he who gives to the poor or lends to the needy does a better deed than he who buys indulgences.
44. Because love grows by works of love, man thereby becomes better. Man does not, however, become better by means of indulgences but is merely freed from penalties.
45. Christians are to be taught that he who sees a needy man and passes him by, yet gives his money for indulgences, does not buy papal indulgences but God's wrath.
46. Christians are to be taught that, unless they have more than they need, they must reserve enough for their family needs and by no means squander it on indulgences.
47. Christians are to be taught that they buying of indulgences is a matter of free choice, not commanded.
48. Christians are to be taught that the pope, in granting indulgences, needs and thus desires their devout prayer more than their money.
49. Christians are to be taught that papal indulgences are useful only if they do not put their trust in them, but very harmful if they lose their fear of God because of them.
50. Christians are to be taught that if the pope knew the exactions of the indulgence preachers, he would rather that the basilica of St. Peter were burned to ashes than built up with the skin, flesh, and bones of his sheep.
51. Christians are to be taught that the pope would and should wish to give of his own money, even though he had to sell the basilica of St. Peter, to many of those from whom certain hawkers of indulgences cajole money.
52. It is vain to trust in salvation by indulgence letters, even though the indulgence commissary, or even the pope, were to offer his soul as security.
53. They are the enemies of Christ and the pope who forbid altogether the preaching of the Word of God in some churches in order that indulgences may be preached in others.
54. Injury is done to the Word of God when, in the same sermon, an equal or larger amount of time is devoted to indulgences than to the Word.
55. It is certainly the pope's sentiment that if indulgences, which are a very insignificant thing, are celebrated with one bell, one procession, and one ceremony, then the gospel, which is the very greatest thing, should be preached with a hundred bells, a hundred processions, a hundred ceremonies.
56. The true treasures of the church, out of which the pope distributes indulgences, are not sufficiently discussed or known among the people of Christ.
57. That indulgences are not temporal treasures is certainly clear, for many indulgence sellers do not distribute them freely but only gather them.
58. Nor are they the merits of Christ and the saints, for, even without the pope, the latter always work grace for the inner man, and the cross, death, and hell for the outer man.
59. St. Lawrence said that the poor of the church were the treasures of the church, but he spoke according to the usage of the word in his own time.
60. Without want of consideration we say that the keys of the church, given by the merits of Christ, are that treasure.
61. For it is clear that the pope's power is of itself sufficient for the remission of penalties and cases reserved by himself.
62. The true treasure of the church is the most holy gospel of the glory and grace of God.
63. But this treasure is naturally most odious, for it makes the first to be last (Mt. 20:16).
64. On the other hand, the treasure of indulgences is naturally most acceptable, for it makes the last to be first.
65. Therefore the treasures of the gospel are nets with which one formerly fished for men of wealth.
66. The treasures of indulgences are nets with which one now fishes for the wealth of men.
67. The indulgences which the demagogues acclaim as the greatest graces are actually understood to be such only insofar as they promote gain.
68. They are nevertheless in truth the most insignificant graces when compared with the grace of God and the piety of the cross.
69. Bishops and curates are bound to admit the commissaries of papal indulgences with all reverence.
70. But they are much more bound to strain their eyes and ears lest these men preach their own dreams instead of what the pope has commissioned.
71. Let him who speaks against the truth concerning papal indulgences be anathema and accursed.
72. But let him who guards against the lust and license of the indulgence preachers be blessed.
73. Just as the pope justly thunders against those who by any means whatever contrive harm to the sale of indulgences.
74. Much more does he intend to thunder against those who use indulgences as a pretext to contrive harm to holy love and truth.
75. To consider papal indulgences so great that they could absolve a man even if he had done the impossible and had violated the mother of God is madness.
76. We say on the contrary that papal indulgences cannot remove the very least of venial sins as far as guilt is concerned.
77. To say that even St. Peter if he were now pope, could not grant greater graces is blasphemy against St. Peter and the pope.
78. We say on the contrary that even the present pope, or any pope whatsoever, has greater graces at his disposal, that is, the gospel, spiritual powers, gifts of healing, etc., as it is written. (1 Co 12[:28])
79. To say that the cross emblazoned with the papal coat of arms, and set up by the indulgence preachers is equal in worth to the cross of Christ is blasphemy.
80. The bishops, curates, and theologians who permit such talk to be spread among the people will have to answer for this.
81. This unbridled preaching of indulgences makes it difficult even for learned men to rescue the reverence which is due the pope from slander or from the shrewd questions of the laity.
82. Such as: ``Why does not the pope empty purgatory for the sake of holy love and the dire need of the souls that are there if he redeems an infinite number of souls for the sake of miserable money with which to build a church?'' The former reason would be most just; the latter is most trivial.
83. Again, ``Why are funeral and anniversary masses for the dead continued and why does he not return or permit the withdrawal of the endowments founded for them, since it is wrong to pray for the redeemed?''
84. Again, ``What is this new piety of God and the pope that for a consideration of money they permit a man who is impious and their enemy to buy out of purgatory the pious soul of a friend of God and do not rather, beca use of the need of that pious and beloved soul, free it for pure love's sake?''
85. Again, ``Why are the penitential canons, long since abrogated and dead in actual fact and through disuse, now satisfied by the granting of indulgences as though they were still alive and in force?''
86. Again, ``Why does not the pope, whose wealth is today greater than the wealth of the richest Crassus, build this one basilica of St. Peter with his own money rather than with the money of poor believers?''
87. Again, ``What does the pope remit or grant to those who by perfect contrition already have a right to full remission and blessings?''
88. Again, ``What greater blessing could come to the church than if the pope were to bestow these remissions and blessings on every believer a hundred times a day, as he now does but once?''
89. ``Since the pope seeks the salvation of souls rather than money by his indulgences, why does he suspend the indulgences and pardons previously granted when they have equal efficacy?''
90. To repress these very sharp arguments of the laity by force alone, and not to resolve them by giving reasons, is to expose the church and the pope to the ridicule of their enemies and to make Christians unhappy.
91. If, therefore, indulgences were preached according to the spirit and intention of the pope, all these doubts would be readily resolved. Indeed, they would not exist.
92. Away, then, with all those prophets who say to the people of Christ, ``Peace, peace,'' and there is no peace! (Jer 6:14)
93. Blessed be all those prophets who say to the people of Christ, ``Cross, cross,'' and there is no cross!
94. Christians should be exhorted to be diligent in following Christ, their Head, through penalties, death and hell.
95. And thus be confident of entering into heaven through many tribulations rather than through the false security of peace (Acts 14:22).

Pogo spammed the thread up lecturing about the ‘real’ scriptures and then called the Bible BS when he got his ass handed to him. He’s just a troll.

 

[Rustic]

There are a number of verses in the Bible which, on their face, establish that justification is by faith alone and works are irrelevant . This are also a number of verses which say that we are judged by our works and that faith without works is dead. Some Christians believe in the former and others in the latter. That's just the way it is.

lol
“Works” Have absolutely nothing to do with salvation… If they did there would be no reason for the crucifixion of Christ.


1. Eph. 2:8-9 - "For BY GRACE are ye SAVED THROUGH FAITH; and that NOT OF
YOURSELVES: it is the GIFT of God: NOT OF WORKS, lest any man should boast."
2. Rom. 4:6-7 - God imputes "Righteousness without works." (See #9, #4, #45, #7, #12, #53)
3. Rom. 10:3 - It's a grave mistake for anyone to try to, "Establish their own righteousness."
4. Rom. 5:17 - Heaven deserving righteousness is a "GIFT," not something you earn.
5. Rom. 5:18 - Justification to God is a "FREE GIFT," not something you work toward.
6. Phil. 3:9 - Paul, as ‘good’ as he was, still wouldn't trust his "Own righteousness" to save him.
7. Rom. 3:22 - God's righteousness is credited to "ALL THEM THAT BELIEVE," not all that work.
8. Rom. 8:3-4 - The flesh is too "Weak" to save itself. We need a Saviour. We need Christ. (See #86)
9. Rom. 4:3 - Abraham's faith, not works, "Was counted unto him for righteousness."
10. Rom. 4:4-5 - Works are "Not reckoned of grace, but of debt." Faith is counted as righteousness.
11. Gal. 3:10 - To earn Heaven you'd have to "Continueth," perfectly, in the whole law. (See #81, #86)
12. Titus 3:5 - "NOT BY WORKS OF RIGHTEOUSNESS which we have done, but according to
his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost."
13. John 5:24 - In Christ we've "PASSED from death unto life." We don't have to "wait" to find out.
14. Rom. 9:31-32 - Israel, "Sought it not by faith, but as it were by the works of the law." (#33, #54)
15. Acts 4:12 - No other name but Christ can save us-- not the name of works, nor our own name.
16. John 1:12-13 - Only God's power, through His Son, makes us a child of God. We are not born into
God's family by "Blood" (heritage, family ‘pedigree’), "Nor will of the flesh" (good works), "Nor will
of man." (minister, or man made religion), "But of God." (See #12, #53, #21, #17, #22, #46, #15)
17. Isa. 45:22 - No one else can save a soul from Hell but God; "There is none else."
18. Acts 13:39 - "And by him [Christ] all that believe are justified from all things, from which ye
COULD NOT BE JUSTIFIED by the law of Moses." (See #33, #54, #53, #5, #42, #64, #82, #87, #80)
19. Rom. 8:7 - We can't follow God's law even if we wanted to. So how can we save ourselves? (#86, #8)
20. Matthew 7:21-23 - Christ describes a future scene in which some who are trusting in their "Many
wonderful works," will, sadly, be told by Christ: "I never knew you: depart from me, Ye that work
iniquity." Their good works will not save them. We all have to trust Christ, and Him ALONE. (#46, #12)
21. John 10:1 - We must enter through Christ, "THE DOOR," not by "Some other way.." (See #46)
22. John 8:24 - A person can work all they want, but it won't save them. Jesus said the bottom line is
that, "If ye believe not that I am he [the only way], ye shall die in your sins." (See #53 and #69)
23. Rom. 4:2 - If Abraham could have saved himself, he'd have something to brag about. (See #25, #1)
24. Acts 10:1-43 - Cornelius' good works would put anyone today to shame, yet he still had to get saved
by trusting solely in Christ to save him. (See #6, #12, #1, #88)
25. Rom. 3:27-28 - "Where is boasting then?...Of WORKS? nay." (See #1 and #23)
26. 1 John 5:13 - If your salvation depends on a lifetime of good works, then why does the Bible teach
that you could "KNOW" for sure, before you die, that you are going to Heaven? The answer is because
salvation doesn't depend on you, but on Christ, who ALREADY paid the price for your sins. (See #87)
27. Heb. 1:3 - "He had BY HIMSELF purged our sins." He doesn't need help from us! (See #15)
28. Heb. 2:3 - If we have to work at earning it, why does the Bible call it "So great salvation"?
29. Heb. 2:9-10 - Christ is "The CAPTAIN of their salvation." He tasted "Death for every man."
30. Heb. 2:14-15 - Christ is the one who will "DELIVER" us from death, not ourselves! (See #53)
31. Heb. 2:17 - Christ makes "RECONCILIATION for the sins." We can't reconcile ourselves.
32. Heb. 5:9 - Christ is "The AUTHOR of eternal salvation," not us! It's not in our hands.



33. Gal. 2:16 - "Knowing that a man IS NOT JUSTIFIED BY THE WORKS of the law, but by the
faith of Jesus Christ, ....that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and NOT by the WORKS
of the law: FOR BY THE WORKS OF THE LAW SHALL NO FLESH BE JUSTIFIED."
34. Heb. 9:28 - "Christ was once offered to bear the sins of many." God won't accept good works.
35. Heb. 10:10-12 - Christ's body was offered "Once for all." So stop insulting God with your works.
36. Heb. 10:14 - "For by one offering he hath perfected for ever them." STOP WORKING at it!
37. Heb. 10:17-18 - "There is no more offering for sin." So stop offering your good works.
38. 2 Cor. 1:9 - "We should not trust in ourselves, but in God," who has ALREADY paid the price.
39. 2 Cor. 1:10 - Christ "Delivered us from so great a death." He had to; we can't deliver ourselves.
40. Eph. 1:12-13 - You are saved by trusting in Christ, and, "After that believed, ye were SEALED."
41. Jer. 17:5 - "Cursed be the man that trusteth in man, and maketh flesh his arm."
42. Job 25:4 - "How then can man be justified with God? or how can he be clean that is born of a
woman?" (For God's answer, see #86, #63, #54, #33, #82, #80, #73, #5 and Isaiah 1:18)
43. Isa. 12:2 - "Behold, God is my salvation; I will trust." Don't trust good works, trust the Saviour.
44. Luke 18:9-14 - Jesus gives a parable teaching that self righteousness WILL NOT save a person.
45. Ezek. 33:13 - "If he trust to his own righteousness..." He better be perfectly sinless or else!
46. John 14:6 - Jesus said, "I am THE WAY...no man cometh unto the Father, BUT BY ME."
47. 1 Tim. 2:5-6 - There's ONLY "One mediator between God and men," Jesus Christ, not ourselves.
48. Col. 2:14 - Christ took our sin debt, "Nailing it to his cross." It's ALREADY paid for! (See #34-37)
49. John 19:30 - While on the cross, Christ said, "It is finished." It's paid. We don't have to work for it.
50. Matt. 11:28-30 - Christ offers "REST" to all those working at trying to earn their way to Heaven.
51. Isa. 53:4-6 - Christ was, "WOUNDED FOR OUR transgressions." Why? So WE don't have to be.
52. Heb. 4:9-10 - The person who accepts Christ as Saviour, "Hath CEASED from his own works."
53. Gal. 2:21 - If you could earn Heaven, why did Christ die? "Then Christ is dead in vain." (See #86, #8)
54. Rom. 3:20 - "Therefore by the deeds of the law there SHALL NO FLESH BE JUSTIFIED in his
sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin." (See #33, #14, #82, #80, #87, #42, #73)
55. Gal. 5:1-4 - "Christ hath made us free." He had to; we can't free ourselves, no matter how "good."
56. 2 Tim. 1:10 - "Our Saviour Jesus Christ, who hath abolished death," with no help from us.
57. 1 John 4:14 - Christ was sent, "To be the Saviour of the world"; we couldn't save ourselves.
58. 1 Tim. 4:10 - "The Saviour of ALL men." Why try to save yourself? You already have a Saviour.
59. Acts 16:30-31 - When the Philippian jailer asked, "What must I do to be saved?" Paul didn't say,
keep the Ten Commandments, but rather, "Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved."
60. Luke 7:49-50 - Christ told the woman: "Thy faith hath saved thee," not thy works! (See #1)
61. Eph. 1:7 - "Redemption through HIS BLOOD, the forgiveness of sins," not through our works.
62. 1 Pet. 1:3-5 - "According to his abundant MERCY," not according to our good deeds. (See #12)
63. Rev. 1:5 - Christ, "Washed us from our sins in his own blood"; can't wash ourselves with works.
64. Titus 3:7 - We are "Justified by his grace," not by our good deeds, baptism, or church membership.
65. Titus 2:11 - "The grace of God that BRINGETH SALVATION hath appeared to ALL MEN."
66. Eph. 4:32 - We are forgiven, "For Christ's sake," not because of our good behavior. (See #88)
67. Eph. 2:4-5 - "(By grace ye are saved)," not by works. The two don't mix according to Rom. 11:6.
68. Acts 26:18 - "Through this man [Christ]...forgiveness of sins," not through our efforts!
69. Heb. 7:25 - Only Christ is "Able to save." Only He can "Make INTERCESSION for them."



70. Rom. 3:10 - "There is none righteous, no, not one." So how can anyone save themselves?
71. Rom. 3:12 - "There is none that doeth good, no, not one." So how can anyone save themselves?
72. Eccl. 7:20 - "There is not a just man upon earth, that doeth good." Can anyone save themselves?
73. Rom. 4:25 - Christ has already died for our sins. He, "Was delivered for our offences and raised
again FOR OUR JUSTIFICATION." So what role does a person play in their own salvation?
74. Rom. 5:10 - "We are reconciled to God by the death of his Son," not by the fruits of our works.
75. John 6:28-29 - "Then said they unto him, WHAT SHALL WE DO, that we might work the works
of God? Jesus answered and said unto them, THIS IS THE WORK OF GOD, THAT YE BELIEVE
ON HIM whom he hath sent." (See #59, #22, #10, #53)
76. 1 Pet. 3:18 - "Suffered for us...that HE might bring us to God." Do we have to help Him save us?
Didn't He suffer enough to pay the price? Heb. 7:25 says He did. He saves to "The uttermost."
77. Matt. 5:20 - Your self-righteousness would have to surpass that of the Pharisees-- Impossible! (#70)
78. 1 John 2:2 - Christ, "Is the propitiation [payment]...for the sins of the whole world." If He can
pay for the sins of the whole world, why would He need our help in saving us-- mere individuals?
79. Rom. 8:8 - "They that are in the flesh cannot please God." So what chance does anyone have?
80. Rom. 3:23-25 - Through Christ's death we are "Justified freely" (made right with God). His death
provides: "Redemption" (we are bought back to God), "Propitiation" (a settlement of our sin debt),
"Remission [forgiveness] of sins." It's all by God's "Grace" not our works. (See #1, #35, #36, #78)
81. James 2:10-11 - "For whosoever shall keep the whole law, and yet offend in ONE POINT, he is
guilty of all." We can't possibly save ourselves; God demands sinless perfection. We need a Saviour.
82. Romans 5:8-9 - We are "Justified by his blood," not our good works. That's why "When we were
sinners, Christ died for us." Therefore, "We shall be saved from wrath through him."
83. Matt. 18:11 - Jesus came "To save that which was lost [us]." Why? Because we can't save ourselves.
Otherwise, why send Christ to die for our sins if we could pay for them ourselves? (See #53, #8, #86, #76)
84. Acts 15:10-11 - "Through the grace of the Lord Jesus Christ we shall be saved," not through
works. Grace is not works; works is not grace, as explained in Rom. 11:6 (see #90, #1, #53)
85. 2 Cor. 5:21 - "Christ was made sin for us...that we might be made the righteousness of God in
him." Why trust our own "righteousness" if God offers to impute us His righteousness? (Rom. 4:22-24)
86. Matt. 19:25-26 - "When his disciples heard it, they were exceedingly amazed, saying, WHO THEN
CAN BE SAVED? But Jesus beheld them, and said unto them, WITH MEN THIS IS IMPOSSIBLE;
but with God all things are possible." (See #8, #41, #42, #81, #11, #45, #70, #19)
87. Rom. 5:1 - "Therefore being JUSTIFIED BY FAITH, we have PEACE WITH GOD through our
Lord Jesus Christ." There can be no real peace when a person spends their life wondering if they have done
enough good works. Peace is knowing it's been paid for ALREADY. (See #52, #50, #26, #53)
88. 2 Tim. 1:9 - "Who hath saved us, and called us with an holy calling, NOT ACCORDING TO OUR
WORKS, but according to his own purpose and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus before the
world began." God had a "payment plan" ready before any of us were even alive to work!
89. Rom. 10:9-13 - "That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus [i.e. Repent], and shalt
believe in thine heart [i.e. Trust] that God hath raised him from the dead, THOU SHALT BE SAVED
...For whosoever shall CALL upon the name of the Lord SHALL BE SAVED." (See #15)
90. Rom. 11:6 - "And if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace."
91. Gal. 1:4, 92. Rom. 1:16, 93. Gal. 3:21, 94. Heb. 9:22, 95. 1 Tim. 2:6, 96. Acts 10:43,
97. Isa. 43:11, 98. Gal. 3:24, 99. Heb. 9:12-14, 100. 1 Tim. 1:15, 101. Heb. 6:1





IF you were to die today, are you 100% SURE
you would go to Heaven? The Bible says
YOU CAN BE SURE (1 John 5:13).
BUT FIRST, you must realize that what keeps you
from going to Heaven are your sins, because:
"...your iniquities [sins] have separated
between you and your God," Isaiah 59:2.
In fact, in God's eyes YOU ARE A SINNER: "For
all have sinned, and come short
of the glory of God;" Romans 3:23.

SECONDLY, you must realize that there is
NOTHING you can do to save yourself and earn
Heaven: "For by grace are ye saved through
faith; and that not of yourselves: it is
the gift of God: Not of works, lest any
man should boast." Eph. 2:8-9 Baptism, good
deeds, church membership, self-righteousness are
all examples of good works that cannot save you,
because: "Not by works of
righteousness which we have done, but
according to his mercy he [Christ] saved
us," Titus 3:5.

THE ONLY WAY you can get saved is through
Jesus Christ. He said: "I am the way, the
truth, and the life: no man cometh unto
the Father, but by me." (John 14:6) THAT'S
WHY: "...while we were yet sinners, Christ
died for us." (Rom. 5:8-9)

THEREFORE: You must REPENT (change your
mind); admit that you are a Hell deserving sinner
and can't save yourself. And call upon Christ, and
Him alone, to save you. "if thou shalt confess
with thy mouth the Lord Jesus [REPENT], and
shalt believe in thine heart [TRUST] that God
hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be
saved." Romans 10:9

The man hanging on the cross next to Jesus became a believer and was never baptized nor did anything for his new faith. Yet minutes later went to paradise with Jesus.

This is gonna be an all time classic. Here we go .............


---------------- Link?

1. When our Lord and Master Jesus Christ said, ``Repent'' (Mt 4:17), he willed the entire life of believers to be one of repentance.
2. This word cannot be understood as referring to the sacrament of penance, that is, confession and satisfaction, as administered by the clergy.
3. Yet it does not mean solely inner repentance; such inner repentance is worthless unless it produces various outward mortification of the flesh.
4. The penalty of sin remains as long as the hatred of self (that is, true inner repentance), namely till our entrance into the kingdom of heaven.
5. The pope neither desires nor is able to remit any penalties except those imposed by his own authority or that of the canons.
6. The pope cannot remit any guilt, except by declaring and showing that it has been remitted by God; or, to be sure, by remitting guilt in cases reserved to his judgment. If his right to grant remission in these cases were disregarded, the guilt would certainly remain unforgiven.
7. God remits guilt to no one unless at the same time he humbles him in all things and makes him submissive to the vicar, the priest.
8. The penitential canons are imposed only on the living, and, according to the canons themselves, nothing should be imposed on the dying.
9. Therefore the Holy Spirit through the pope is kind to us insofar as the pope in his decrees always makes exception of the article of death and of necessity.
10. Those priests act ignorantly and wickedly who, in the case of the dying, reserve canonical penalties for purgatory.
11. Those tares of changing the canonical penalty to the penalty of purgatory were evidently sown while the bishops slept (Mt 13:25).
12. In former times canonical penalties were imposed, not after, but before absolution, as tests of true contrition.
13. The dying are freed by death from all penalties, are already dead as far as the canon laws are concerned, and have a right to be released from them.
14. Imperfect piety or love on the part of the dying person necessarily brings with it great fear; and the smaller the love, the greater the fear.
15. This fear or horror is sufficient in itself, to say nothing of other things, to constitute the penalty of purgatory, since it is very near to the horror of despair.
16. Hell, purgatory, and heaven seem to differ the same as despair, fear, and assurance of salvation.
17. It seems as though for the souls in purgatory fear should necessarily decrease and love increase.
18. Furthermore, it does not seem proved, either by reason or by Scripture, that souls in purgatory are outside the state of merit, that is, unable to grow in love.
19. Nor does it seem proved that souls in purgatory, at least not all of them, are certain and assured of their own salvation, even if we ourselves may be entirely certain of it.
20. Therefore the pope, when he uses the words ``plenary remission of all penalties,'' does not actually mean ``all penalties,'' but only those imposed by himself.
21. Thus those indulgence preachers are in error who say that a man is absolved from every penalty and saved by papal indulgences.
22. As a matter of fact, the pope remits to souls in purgatory no penalty which, according to canon law, they should have paid in this life.
23. If remission of all penalties whatsoever could be granted to anyone at all, certainly it would be granted only to the most perfect, that is, to very few.
24. For this reason most people are necessarily deceived by that indiscriminate and high-sounding promise of release from penalty.
25. That power which the pope has in general over purgatory corresponds to the power which any bishop or curate has in a particular way in his own diocese and parish.
26. The pope does very well when he grants remission to souls in purgatory, not by the power of the keys, which he does not have, but by way of intercession for them.
27. They preach only human doctrines who say that as soon as the money clinks into the money chest, the soul flies out of purgatory.
28. It is certain that when money clinks in the money chest, greed and avarice can be increased; but when the church intercedes, the result is in the hands of God alone.
29. Who knows whether all souls in purgatory wish to be redeemed, since we have exceptions in St. Severinus and St. Paschal, as related in a legend.
30. No one is sure of the integrity of his own contrition, much less of having received plenary remission.
31. The man who actually buys indulgences is as rare as he who is really penitent; indeed, he is exceedingly rare.
32. Those who believe that they can be certain of their salvation because they have indulgence letters will be eternally damned, together with their teachers.
33. Men must especially be on guard against those who say that the pope's pardons are that inestimable gift of God by which man is reconciled to him.
34. For the graces of indulgences are concerned only with the penalties of sacramental satisfaction established by man.
35. They who teach that contrition is not necessary on the part of those who intend to buy souls out of purgatory or to buy confessional privileges preach unchristian doctrine.
36. Any truly repentant Christian has a right to full remission of penalty and guilt, even without indulgence letters.
37. Any true Christian, whether living or dead, participates in all the blessings of Christ and the church; and this is granted him by God, even without indulgence letters.
38. Nevertheless, papal remission and blessing are by no means to be disregarded, for they are, as I have said (Thesis 6), the proclamation of the divine remission.
39. It is very difficult, even for the most learned theologians, at one and the same time to commend to the people the bounty of indulgences and the need of true contrition.
40. A Christian who is truly contrite seeks and loves to pay penalties for his sins; the bounty of indulgences, however, relaxes penalties and causes men to hate them -- at least it furnishes occasion for hating them.
41. Papal indulgences must be preached with caution, lest people erroneously think that they are preferable to other good works of love.
42. Christians are to be taught that the pope does not intend that the buying of indulgences should in any way be compared with works of mercy.
43. Christians are to be taught that he who gives to the poor or lends to the needy does a better deed than he who buys indulgences.
44. Because love grows by works of love, man thereby becomes better. Man does not, however, become better by means of indulgences but is merely freed from penalties.
45. Christians are to be taught that he who sees a needy man and passes him by, yet gives his money for indulgences, does not buy papal indulgences but God's wrath.
46. Christians are to be taught that, unless they have more than they need, they must reserve enough for their family needs and by no means squander it on indulgences.
47. Christians are to be taught that they buying of indulgences is a matter of free choice, not commanded.
48. Christians are to be taught that the pope, in granting indulgences, needs and thus desires their devout prayer more than their money.
49. Christians are to be taught that papal indulgences are useful only if they do not put their trust in them, but very harmful if they lose their fear of God because of them.
50. Christians are to be taught that if the pope knew the exactions of the indulgence preachers, he would rather that the basilica of St. Peter were burned to ashes than built up with the skin, flesh, and bones of his sheep.
51. Christians are to be taught that the pope would and should wish to give of his own money, even though he had to sell the basilica of St. Peter, to many of those from whom certain hawkers of indulgences cajole money.
52. It is vain to trust in salvation by indulgence letters, even though the indulgence commissary, or even the pope, were to offer his soul as security.
53. They are the enemies of Christ and the pope who forbid altogether the preaching of the Word of God in some churches in order that indulgences may be preached in others.
54. Injury is done to the Word of God when, in the same sermon, an equal or larger amount of time is devoted to indulgences than to the Word.
55. It is certainly the pope's sentiment that if indulgences, which are a very insignificant thing, are celebrated with one bell, one procession, and one ceremony, then the gospel, which is the very greatest thing, should be preached with a hundred bells, a hundred processions, a hundred ceremonies.
56. The true treasures of the church, out of which the pope distributes indulgences, are not sufficiently discussed or known among the people of Christ.
57. That indulgences are not temporal treasures is certainly clear, for many indulgence sellers do not distribute them freely but only gather them.
58. Nor are they the merits of Christ and the saints, for, even without the pope, the latter always work grace for the inner man, and the cross, death, and hell for the outer man.
59. St. Lawrence said that the poor of the church were the treasures of the church, but he spoke according to the usage of the word in his own time.
60. Without want of consideration we say that the keys of the church, given by the merits of Christ, are that treasure.
61. For it is clear that the pope's power is of itself sufficient for the remission of penalties and cases reserved by himself.
62. The true treasure of the church is the most holy gospel of the glory and grace of God.
63. But this treasure is naturally most odious, for it makes the first to be last (Mt. 20:16).
64. On the other hand, the treasure of indulgences is naturally most acceptable, for it makes the last to be first.
65. Therefore the treasures of the gospel are nets with which one formerly fished for men of wealth.
66. The treasures of indulgences are nets with which one now fishes for the wealth of men.
67. The indulgences which the demagogues acclaim as the greatest graces are actually understood to be such only insofar as they promote gain.
68. They are nevertheless in truth the most insignificant graces when compared with the grace of God and the piety of the cross.
69. Bishops and curates are bound to admit the commissaries of papal indulgences with all reverence.
70. But they are much more bound to strain their eyes and ears lest these men preach their own dreams instead of what the pope has commissioned.
71. Let him who speaks against the truth concerning papal indulgences be anathema and accursed.
72. But let him who guards against the lust and license of the indulgence preachers be blessed.
73. Just as the pope justly thunders against those who by any means whatever contrive harm to the sale of indulgences.
74. Much more does he intend to thunder against those who use indulgences as a pretext to contrive harm to holy love and truth.
75. To consider papal indulgences so great that they could absolve a man even if he had done the impossible and had violated the mother of God is madness.
76. We say on the contrary that papal indulgences cannot remove the very least of venial sins as far as guilt is concerned.
77. To say that even St. Peter if he were now pope, could not grant greater graces is blasphemy against St. Peter and the pope.
78. We say on the contrary that even the present pope, or any pope whatsoever, has greater graces at his disposal, that is, the gospel, spiritual powers, gifts of healing, etc., as it is written. (1 Co 12[:28])
79. To say that the cross emblazoned with the papal coat of arms, and set up by the indulgence preachers is equal in worth to the cross of Christ is blasphemy.
80. The bishops, curates, and theologians who permit such talk to be spread among the people will have to answer for this.
81. This unbridled preaching of indulgences makes it difficult even for learned men to rescue the reverence which is due the pope from slander or from the shrewd questions of the laity.
82. Such as: ``Why does not the pope empty purgatory for the sake of holy love and the dire need of the souls that are there if he redeems an infinite number of souls for the sake of miserable money with which to build a church?'' The former reason would be most just; the latter is most trivial.
83. Again, ``Why are funeral and anniversary masses for the dead continued and why does he not return or permit the withdrawal of the endowments founded for them, since it is wrong to pray for the redeemed?''
84. Again, ``What is this new piety of God and the pope that for a consideration of money they permit a man who is impious and their enemy to buy out of purgatory the pious soul of a friend of God and do not rather, beca use of the need of that pious and beloved soul, free it for pure love's sake?''
85. Again, ``Why are the penitential canons, long since abrogated and dead in actual fact and through disuse, now satisfied by the granting of indulgences as though they were still alive and in force?''
86. Again, ``Why does not the pope, whose wealth is today greater than the wealth of the richest Crassus, build this one basilica of St. Peter with his own money rather than with the money of poor believers?''
87. Again, ``What does the pope remit or grant to those who by perfect contrition already have a right to full remission and blessings?''
88. Again, ``What greater blessing could come to the church than if the pope were to bestow these remissions and blessings on every believer a hundred times a day, as he now does but once?''
89. ``Since the pope seeks the salvation of souls rather than money by his indulgences, why does he suspend the indulgences and pardons previously granted when they have equal efficacy?''
90. To repress these very sharp arguments of the laity by force alone, and not to resolve them by giving reasons, is to expose the church and the pope to the ridicule of their enemies and to make Christians unhappy.
91. If, therefore, indulgences were preached according to the spirit and intention of the pope, all these doubts would be readily resolved. Indeed, they would not exist.
92. Away, then, with all those prophets who say to the people of Christ, ``Peace, peace,'' and there is no peace! (Jer 6:14)
93. Blessed be all those prophets who say to the people of Christ, ``Cross, cross,'' and there is no cross!
94. Christians should be exhorted to be diligent in following Christ, their Head, through penalties, death and hell.
95. And thus be confident of entering into heaven through many tribulations rather than through the false security of peace (Acts 14:22).

Pogo spammed the thread up lecturing about the ‘real’ scriptures and then called the Bible BS when he got his ass handed to him. He’s just a troll.

https://www.josh.org/wp-content/uploads/Bibliographical-Test-Update-08.13.14.pdf


Author Date
Written Earliest Copy Approximate Time Span between original & copy Number of Copies Accuracy of Copies
Lucretius died 55 or 53 B.C. 1100 yrs 2 ----
Pliny A.D. 61-113 A.D. 850 750 yrs 7 ----
Plato 427-347 B.C. A.D. 900 1200 yrs 7 ----
Demosthenes 4th Cent. B.C. A.D. 1100 800 yrs 8 ----
Herodotus 480-425 B.C. A.D. 900 1300 yrs 8 ----
Suetonius A.D. 75-160 A.D. 950 800 yrs 8 ----
Thucydides 460-400 B.C. A.D. 900 1300 yrs 8 ----
Euripides 480-406 B.C. A.D. 1100 1300 yrs 9 ----
Aristophanes 450-385 B.C. A.D. 900 1200 10 ----
Caesar 100-44 B.C. A.D. 900 1000 10 ----
Livy 59 BC-AD 17 ---- ??? 20 ----
Tacitus circa A.D. 100 A.D. 1100 1000 yrs 20 ----
Aristotle 384-322 B.C. A.D. 1100 1400 49 ----
Sophocles 496-406 B.C. A.D. 1000 1400 yrs 193 ----
Homer (Iliad) 900 B.C. 400 B.C. 500 yrs 643 95%
New
Testament 1st Cent. A.D. (A.D. 50-100) 2nd Cent. A.D.
(c. A.D. 130 f.) less than 100 years 5600 99.5%

The New Testament Compared to Classical Literature

 

[Andylusion]

But they do... or they put a lien on your house, or they garnish your wages. There are many ways the IRS can take what you have by force. It's true that they do not TYPICALLY put people in prison, but they most certainly do put people in prison.

Of course the primary reason they don't, is because they would rather have you as a slave, than as a prisoner. Prisoners do not generally make a good enough income to pay their masters.... slaves do. Go work your job, and enjoy paying your master.

Paying for the things that you use does not make you a slave.

I have not used, welfare, food stamps, obama phones, section 8 housing, unemployment compensation, a wind mill, ethanol, a city bus, Amtrak, Medicare, Medicaid, Social Security, cash for clunkers, government funded Union pensions, and I could go on and on and on and on and on and on and on.................

“To compel a man to furnish funds for the propagation of ideas he disbelieves and abhors is sinful and tyrannical.” -Thomas Jefferson.

I would expand that to include, propagation of social programs one does not believe in, is far worse than merely the ideas one disbelieves.

Make up your mind. Either taxation is theft OR you do not approve of where all taxation is spent.

They are not mutually exclusive.

It is theft. Period, end of story, game over.

However, I am not oblivious to the fact that at some level taxation is required. The question is what level.

For example, the original constitution did not allow for an income tax. You can have tariffs, and I do not oppose tariffs in general. I am against protectionist tariffs, because the goal is not to fund the government, but rather to prevent imported goods.

I am all in favor of low level tariffs on all important goods, that produces income for the government.

Additionally, while I want to keep corporate taxes low and competitive to other countries, I don't have a problem with corporate taxes either.

I do have a problem with a national income tax, because the government does not need that money, and should remain frugal and effective specifically on the duties of the Federal government.... which is national defense, security, and that is literally it. All rights, reserved to the states.

Now, on the opposite side of the argument, I have no problem with states deciding how they operate.

If you in your state, with your people vote to have an income tax, while I would oppose that in my state, it still would be constitutional.... all rights reserved for the states.

That's the way it was intended. And if your state wants to bankrupt itself with free health care, that's up to you and your state. All rights reserved for the states.

The reason I vehemently oppose this on the Federal level, is that you can avoid consequences on the Federal level.... you can borrow money to avoid the costs of your badly run, badly managed, federal system.... until it bankrupts the entire country. Which technically our government is utterly bankruptcy right now.

One of the good things about the state-based systems, is that you end up with only good policies moving forward. Bad policies are dropped. Because a state can't borrow until it bankrupts the country. When Hawaii tried to have free health care for children, the system in months went bankrupt, the policy was repealed.

But what would happen if this was a national policy by the Federal Government? The system would continue, built on borrowed money, until the country country imploded like Greece.

This why when you look at local budgets, they are generally much better, than the Federal Budget.

My local city budget, nearly every single dollar is productively used for the good of all people, not winners and losers... not one group paying for the benefits of another group.

It goes to police, that benefit everyone. Roads, that benefit everyone. Sewers, that benefit everyone. And on and on and on.

The very opposite of the Federal Budget, where the majority have their money stolen to pay for things they disagree with, that benefits a minority, largely for the benefit of the politicians themselves who gain support and votes from special interest groups.

That is evil... and it should be eliminated.

Nice write up and I do appreciate when people actually take the time to explain themselves but I pretty much ignored everything after the first couple sentences. If you understand that there are things that must be paid for, paying for it is not theft.

Well you have the right to be wrong.
If I don't have a choice in the matter... then it is theft.

If you take something from someone, that is rightfully theirs, and it is not voluntary..... that is theft. You can justify it on a low level, yes. But that doesn't change what it is.

Would you pay tax, if there was zero consequence for not paying?

If the answer is No.... and I would say likely 99.9% of Americans would not pay tax if there were no consequence.... then it is theft. Because only reason they are paying, is because of the power of government to enforce it. No different than a guy robing you at gun point.

There is no way around that fact.

And honestly, if you want to claim it is not theft, then I would propose we conduct a test. Give people the option to opt-out of Social Security and Medicare. We'll see how much it isn't theft.

 

[Andylusion]

Once AGAIN ---*** NOTHING *** --- NO THING ,ZERO --- in the entire passage is about sex in any way, shape or form.

This ain't rocket surgery. The poster plugged in something that was not there.

The rest of your self-satisfied holier-than-thou bullshit is summarily dismissed for the sociopathic self-righteous pap it is.

Do you just want me to repeat what I already said?

Well when you claim to be a Christian, then by definition, means you follow the teachings of the Christian Bible.

Pete is a homo. That's what he is, and he's open about it.

These are mutually exclusive. You can't both follow the teaching of the Bible, and be a homo. So yes, we're talking about sex, because it matters and is relevant to this topic.

If I claimed to be a Vegan, and campaigned as a Vegan, and someone brought up pictures of me eating a steak at Texas Roadhouse (which I'm going to this weekend)..... would you laugh if other right-wingers were complaining "You left-wingers are obsessed with meat!" when you complained I wasn't really a Vegan?

Yeah you would, because me eating a steak would be central to the discussion, so yeah, the left-wingers would be obsessed with the fact I'm eating a steak, and claiming to be a Vegan.

Well sparky.... he's ain't a Christian.... or he needs to stop being a rump ranger. It's one or the other. Can't do both.

We can keep repeating to each other as long as you like.

You most certainly can be a Christian and not be perfect. One of the greatest preachers in the country was a man named A.A. Allen. He led thousands to Christ. His revivals would be packed. He died from alcoholism. He simply could not beat it.

Go to most church services and before or later you will hear someone gossip about someone. I'm not even going to argue with you whether it's a sin or not. Even if it was, that is between him and God.

Number of problems with your statement. But before I get to that, let me make it clear that I do not know know A.A.Allen, nor do I know if he was a Christian.

First problem is, there is a difference between not being perfect, and not even trying. Christianity has never been about being perfect, but it is most certainly about trying.

You can be a Christian, and have a struggle with homosexuality. You can NOT be a Christian, and openly embrace homosexuality.

You can be a Christian, had have murdered someone. Paul was a murderer. You can NOT be a Christian, and continue to murder people.

A person can repent of their sins, and be saved. But repenting of sin, means that you turn away from that which is evil, and regret doing it. If you openly embrace sin, and do not regret that sin, nor turn away from it.... then no you are not a Christian.

Again, replace this sin with any other sin.... Murder. Can you just murder forever, and hey G-d will save me because he doesn't expect me to be perfect? No. Even those who say you can repent on your death bed, and be saved..... that involves believing that what you did was wrong, and regretting it. It means if you had the chance to do it again, you would choose not to.

You will not be saved if you do not regret what you did. Pete doesn't even believe what he did was wrong. So no, he's not saved. Period.

Second problem is, there is a difference between being used by G-d, and being saved by G-d. They are not the same. Being used for the sake of Christianity, and being saved into Christianity are not identical.

I would point to King Cyrus of Persia for example. Isaiah 45, directly named the King who would bring his people back to Jerusalem. 100 years later, Ezra records the Cyrus of Persia allowed the Jews to return.

Let me ask you, was Cyrus a G-d fearing Jew? Was he a believer in the torah? No, of course not. Yet he was used by G-d to achieve his goals.

There are many times throughout the old and new testament, where G-d used non-believing people, to promote his plans.

G-d can use anyone to spread Christianity, whether they are a Christian or not.

Third problem is, even saying you are a Christian, and preaching the Bible, does not automatically make you a Christian.

And this is really clear in the Bible itself.

Many will say to me on that day, 'Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name and in your name drive out demons and in your name perform many miracles?'

Then I will tell them plainly, 'I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers!' -Jesus
​

In Matthew 7:22, Jesus himself says very directly, that even people who say "lord lord" and even those who "prophesy in jesus name" and even those that "perform many miracles" .... even those people, there will be many who are not Christians.

Saying Jesus is Lord, teaching the Bible, and doing good deeds... someone can do all of that, and still not be a Christian.

So as I said at the start, I don't know this A. A. Allen, but he may or may not have been a Christian. Generally, the Bible is clear that G-d gives the power to overcome the struggles of life. If he couldn't overcome a beer, then I would question if he ever knew the Lord.

No temptation has overtaken you except what is common to mankind. And God is faithful; he will not let you be tempted beyond what you can bear. But when you are tempted, he will also provide a way out so that you can endure it.
1 Corr 10:13​

Again, I don't know. But I do know that you can't assume someone used by G-d is necessarily a Christian.

However, what we do know is that Pete is simply not. He has denied that something fundamental to the Christian faith, is even wrong. That's not a thing. Biblical doctrine hasn't changed in 2,000 years, and it won't change in the next 2,000 years.

You are unable to judge any of that. I'm not going to vote for Pete because I have a problem with him so readily say he would attack Mexico and that is something I do not understand but his relationship with God is between him and God, not him and me.

It's always the rhetorical fascist control freaks who want to take something entirely personal like one's religion or one's sexuality, and try to force their own views on them. And they don't seem shy about self-identifying.

Of course I don't have any problem about self-identifying as a Christian.

First it is rather ridiculous to try and compare this to Fascism. No one here is trying to force Christianity on anyone.

The only thing we are doing is saying you can't make up what a Christian is. You are free to be, or not be a Christian, at your own choice, and I have no problem with it.

However, being a Christian means something. It does not just mean anything you randomly feel like it should mean. Just like the color blue, is not red. Red is red. Blue is blue.

If you posted a picture that was red, and said "look at my blue picture"



We would contest that. That is not blue. It is red. You complaining that we are fascist for saying someone who does not follow the teachings of Christ, is not a Christian, is like you saying we're fascist for saying that red square is red, not blue.

Again.... if I joined the Vegan society, and posted pictures of myself eating steak at Longhorn Steakhouse today, they would kick me out out of the Vegan society.

If they did that, would you be here attacking them for being fascist? No. Likely not.

Similarly, Pete is a false prophet. He is not a Christian, though he claims to be. He lives a life that is completely against Christian teaching, though he claims to be Christian. He twists 2,000 years of Biblical doctrine, and then spouts off about what he thinks a Christian should do.

He is evil. He wrong. He is not a Christian.

And so you can whine and cry about "fascist" until the end of your life, I don't care. I'm right. I know I'm right. And I'll keep saying what is clearly true.

 

[Andylusion]

Well when you claim to be a Christian, then by definition, means you follow the teachings of the Christian Bible.

Pete is a homo. That's what he is, and he's open about it.

These are mutually exclusive. You can't both follow the teaching of the Bible, and be a homo. So yes, we're talking about sex, because it matters and is relevant to this topic.

If I claimed to be a Vegan, and campaigned as a Vegan, and someone brought up pictures of me eating a steak at Texas Roadhouse (which I'm going to this weekend)..... would you laugh if other right-wingers were complaining "You left-wingers are obsessed with meat!" when you complained I wasn't really a Vegan?

Yeah you would, because me eating a steak would be central to the discussion, so yeah, the left-wingers would be obsessed with the fact I'm eating a steak, and claiming to be a Vegan.

Well sparky.... he's ain't a Christian.... or he needs to stop being a rump ranger. It's one or the other. Can't do both.

Once AGAIN ---*** NOTHING *** --- NO THING ,ZERO --- in the entire passage is about sex in any way, shape or form.

This ain't rocket surgery. The poster plugged in something that was not there.

The rest of your self-satisfied holier-than-thou bullshit is summarily dismissed for the sociopathic self-righteous pap it is.

Do you just want me to repeat what I already said?

Well when you claim to be a Christian, then by definition, means you follow the teachings of the Christian Bible.

Pete is a homo. That's what he is, and he's open about it.

These are mutually exclusive. You can't both follow the teaching of the Bible, and be a homo. So yes, we're talking about sex, because it matters and is relevant to this topic.

If I claimed to be a Vegan, and campaigned as a Vegan, and someone brought up pictures of me eating a steak at Texas Roadhouse (which I'm going to this weekend)..... would you laugh if other right-wingers were complaining "You left-wingers are obsessed with meat!" when you complained I wasn't really a Vegan?

Yeah you would, because me eating a steak would be central to the discussion, so yeah, the left-wingers would be obsessed with the fact I'm eating a steak, and claiming to be a Vegan.

Well sparky.... he's ain't a Christian.... or he needs to stop being a rump ranger. It's one or the other. Can't do both.

We can keep repeating to each other as long as you like.

You most certainly can be a Christian and not be perfect. One of the greatest preachers in the country was a man named A.A. Allen. He led thousands to Christ. His revivals would be packed. He died from alcoholism. He simply could not beat it.

Go to most church services and before or later you will hear someone gossip about someone. I'm not even going to argue with you whether it's a sin or not. Even if it was, that is between him and God.

Number of problems with your statement. But before I get to that, let me make it clear that I do not know know A.A.Allen, nor do I know if he was a Christian.

First problem is, there is a difference between not being perfect, and not even trying. Christianity has never been about being perfect, but it is most certainly about trying.

You can be a Christian, and have a struggle with homosexuality. You can NOT be a Christian, and openly embrace homosexuality.

You can be a Christian, had have murdered someone. Paul was a murderer. You can NOT be a Christian, and continue to murder people.

A person can repent of their sins, and be saved. But repenting of sin, means that you turn away from that which is evil, and regret doing it. If you openly embrace sin, and do not regret that sin, nor turn away from it.... then no you are not a Christian.

Again, replace this sin with any other sin.... Murder. Can you just murder forever, and hey G-d will save me because he doesn't expect me to be perfect? No. Even those who say you can repent on your death bed, and be saved..... that involves believing that what you did was wrong, and regretting it. It means if you had the chance to do it again, you would choose not to.

You will not be saved if you do not regret what you did. Pete doesn't even believe what he did was wrong. So no, he's not saved. Period.

Second problem is, there is a difference between being used by G-d, and being saved by G-d. They are not the same. Being used for the sake of Christianity, and being saved into Christianity are not identical.

I would point to King Cyrus of Persia for example. Isaiah 45, directly named the King who would bring his people back to Jerusalem. 100 years later, Ezra records the Cyrus of Persia allowed the Jews to return.

Let me ask you, was Cyrus a G-d fearing Jew? Was he a believer in the torah? No, of course not. Yet he was used by G-d to achieve his goals.

There are many times throughout the old and new testament, where G-d used non-believing people, to promote his plans.

G-d can use anyone to spread Christianity, whether they are a Christian or not.

Third problem is, even saying you are a Christian, and preaching the Bible, does not automatically make you a Christian.

And this is really clear in the Bible itself.

Many will say to me on that day, 'Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name and in your name drive out demons and in your name perform many miracles?'

Then I will tell them plainly, 'I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers!' -Jesus
​

In Matthew 7:22, Jesus himself says very directly, that even people who say "lord lord" and even those who "prophesy in jesus name" and even those that "perform many miracles" .... even those people, there will be many who are not Christians.

Saying Jesus is Lord, teaching the Bible, and doing good deeds... someone can do all of that, and still not be a Christian.

So as I said at the start, I don't know this A. A. Allen, but he may or may not have been a Christian. Generally, the Bible is clear that G-d gives the power to overcome the struggles of life. If he couldn't overcome a beer, then I would question if he ever knew the Lord.

No temptation has overtaken you except what is common to mankind. And God is faithful; he will not let you be tempted beyond what you can bear. But when you are tempted, he will also provide a way out so that you can endure it.
1 Corr 10:13​

Again, I don't know. But I do know that you can't assume someone used by G-d is necessarily a Christian.

However, what we do know is that Pete is simply not. He has denied that something fundamental to the Christian faith, is even wrong. That's not a thing. Biblical doctrine hasn't changed in 2,000 years, and it won't change in the next 2,000 years.

You are unable to judge any of that. I'm not going to vote for Pete because I have a problem with him so readily say he would attack Mexico and that is something I do not understand but his relationship with God is between him and God, not him and me.

No, you are wrong. I am most certainly able to judge any of that, thank you very much. And I just did.

All I have to do, to judge, is whether the words and life the Pete promotes, match what the Bible says how a Christian should live and act.

They do not match. Therefore I can judge between the two.

Again...... if I joined the Vegan Society, and was posting pictures of me eating steak at Longhorn over the weekend..... would you be sitting there saying "you can't judge whether he's really a Vegan!"?

Would you? Of course not. You can easily compare what I say and do, to the values spelled out in the Vegan society, and see whether or not I match up.

Take one of these white supremacist guys, and see we had no idea who he was, and he joined the Rainbow Coalition, and started promoting the superiority of being white.

If the Rainbow Coalition kicked him out, would you be screaming fascist at them? How can they judge him?!?

Of course they can.
And I can judge whether or not Pete is a Christian based on what he says and does, and I just did. End of story.

 

[pknopp]

Paying for the things that you use does not make you a slave.

I have not used, welfare, food stamps, obama phones, section 8 housing, unemployment compensation, a wind mill, ethanol, a city bus, Amtrak, Medicare, Medicaid, Social Security, cash for clunkers, government funded Union pensions, and I could go on and on and on and on and on and on and on.................

“To compel a man to furnish funds for the propagation of ideas he disbelieves and abhors is sinful and tyrannical.” -Thomas Jefferson.

I would expand that to include, propagation of social programs one does not believe in, is far worse than merely the ideas one disbelieves.

Make up your mind. Either taxation is theft OR you do not approve of where all taxation is spent.

They are not mutually exclusive.

It is theft. Period, end of story, game over.

However, I am not oblivious to the fact that at some level taxation is required. The question is what level.

For example, the original constitution did not allow for an income tax. You can have tariffs, and I do not oppose tariffs in general. I am against protectionist tariffs, because the goal is not to fund the government, but rather to prevent imported goods.

I am all in favor of low level tariffs on all important goods, that produces income for the government.

Additionally, while I want to keep corporate taxes low and competitive to other countries, I don't have a problem with corporate taxes either.

I do have a problem with a national income tax, because the government does not need that money, and should remain frugal and effective specifically on the duties of the Federal government.... which is national defense, security, and that is literally it. All rights, reserved to the states.

Now, on the opposite side of the argument, I have no problem with states deciding how they operate.

If you in your state, with your people vote to have an income tax, while I would oppose that in my state, it still would be constitutional.... all rights reserved for the states.

That's the way it was intended. And if your state wants to bankrupt itself with free health care, that's up to you and your state. All rights reserved for the states.

The reason I vehemently oppose this on the Federal level, is that you can avoid consequences on the Federal level.... you can borrow money to avoid the costs of your badly run, badly managed, federal system.... until it bankrupts the entire country. Which technically our government is utterly bankruptcy right now.

One of the good things about the state-based systems, is that you end up with only good policies moving forward. Bad policies are dropped. Because a state can't borrow until it bankrupts the country. When Hawaii tried to have free health care for children, the system in months went bankrupt, the policy was repealed.

But what would happen if this was a national policy by the Federal Government? The system would continue, built on borrowed money, until the country country imploded like Greece.

This why when you look at local budgets, they are generally much better, than the Federal Budget.

My local city budget, nearly every single dollar is productively used for the good of all people, not winners and losers... not one group paying for the benefits of another group.

It goes to police, that benefit everyone. Roads, that benefit everyone. Sewers, that benefit everyone. And on and on and on.

The very opposite of the Federal Budget, where the majority have their money stolen to pay for things they disagree with, that benefits a minority, largely for the benefit of the politicians themselves who gain support and votes from special interest groups.

That is evil... and it should be eliminated.

Nice write up and I do appreciate when people actually take the time to explain themselves but I pretty much ignored everything after the first couple sentences. If you understand that there are things that must be paid for, paying for it is not theft.

Well you have the right to be wrong.
If I don't have a choice in the matter... then it is theft.

I am not interested in talking in circles. If you understand that you must pay for the things you use, it is not theft. You are free to completely bow out of the system, quit using the infrastructure and go live in the woods someone.

Eric Rudolph sort of pulled it off for awhile.

 

[pknopp]

Do you just want me to repeat what I already said?

Well when you claim to be a Christian, then by definition, means you follow the teachings of the Christian Bible.

Pete is a homo. That's what he is, and he's open about it.

These are mutually exclusive. You can't both follow the teaching of the Bible, and be a homo. So yes, we're talking about sex, because it matters and is relevant to this topic.

If I claimed to be a Vegan, and campaigned as a Vegan, and someone brought up pictures of me eating a steak at Texas Roadhouse (which I'm going to this weekend)..... would you laugh if other right-wingers were complaining "You left-wingers are obsessed with meat!" when you complained I wasn't really a Vegan?

Yeah you would, because me eating a steak would be central to the discussion, so yeah, the left-wingers would be obsessed with the fact I'm eating a steak, and claiming to be a Vegan.

Well sparky.... he's ain't a Christian.... or he needs to stop being a rump ranger. It's one or the other. Can't do both.

We can keep repeating to each other as long as you like.

You most certainly can be a Christian and not be perfect. One of the greatest preachers in the country was a man named A.A. Allen. He led thousands to Christ. His revivals would be packed. He died from alcoholism. He simply could not beat it.

Go to most church services and before or later you will hear someone gossip about someone. I'm not even going to argue with you whether it's a sin or not. Even if it was, that is between him and God.

Number of problems with your statement. But before I get to that, let me make it clear that I do not know know A.A.Allen, nor do I know if he was a Christian.

First problem is, there is a difference between not being perfect, and not even trying. Christianity has never been about being perfect, but it is most certainly about trying.

You can be a Christian, and have a struggle with homosexuality. You can NOT be a Christian, and openly embrace homosexuality.

You can be a Christian, had have murdered someone. Paul was a murderer. You can NOT be a Christian, and continue to murder people.

A person can repent of their sins, and be saved. But repenting of sin, means that you turn away from that which is evil, and regret doing it. If you openly embrace sin, and do not regret that sin, nor turn away from it.... then no you are not a Christian.

Again, replace this sin with any other sin.... Murder. Can you just murder forever, and hey G-d will save me because he doesn't expect me to be perfect? No. Even those who say you can repent on your death bed, and be saved..... that involves believing that what you did was wrong, and regretting it. It means if you had the chance to do it again, you would choose not to.

You will not be saved if you do not regret what you did. Pete doesn't even believe what he did was wrong. So no, he's not saved. Period.

Second problem is, there is a difference between being used by G-d, and being saved by G-d. They are not the same. Being used for the sake of Christianity, and being saved into Christianity are not identical.

I would point to King Cyrus of Persia for example. Isaiah 45, directly named the King who would bring his people back to Jerusalem. 100 years later, Ezra records the Cyrus of Persia allowed the Jews to return.

Let me ask you, was Cyrus a G-d fearing Jew? Was he a believer in the torah? No, of course not. Yet he was used by G-d to achieve his goals.

There are many times throughout the old and new testament, where G-d used non-believing people, to promote his plans.

G-d can use anyone to spread Christianity, whether they are a Christian or not.

Third problem is, even saying you are a Christian, and preaching the Bible, does not automatically make you a Christian.

And this is really clear in the Bible itself.

Many will say to me on that day, 'Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name and in your name drive out demons and in your name perform many miracles?'

Then I will tell them plainly, 'I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers!' -Jesus
​

In Matthew 7:22, Jesus himself says very directly, that even people who say "lord lord" and even those who "prophesy in jesus name" and even those that "perform many miracles" .... even those people, there will be many who are not Christians.

Saying Jesus is Lord, teaching the Bible, and doing good deeds... someone can do all of that, and still not be a Christian.

So as I said at the start, I don't know this A. A. Allen, but he may or may not have been a Christian. Generally, the Bible is clear that G-d gives the power to overcome the struggles of life. If he couldn't overcome a beer, then I would question if he ever knew the Lord.

No temptation has overtaken you except what is common to mankind. And God is faithful; he will not let you be tempted beyond what you can bear. But when you are tempted, he will also provide a way out so that you can endure it.
1 Corr 10:13​

Again, I don't know. But I do know that you can't assume someone used by G-d is necessarily a Christian.

However, what we do know is that Pete is simply not. He has denied that something fundamental to the Christian faith, is even wrong. That's not a thing. Biblical doctrine hasn't changed in 2,000 years, and it won't change in the next 2,000 years.

You are unable to judge any of that. I'm not going to vote for Pete because I have a problem with him so readily say he would attack Mexico and that is something I do not understand but his relationship with God is between him and God, not him and me.

It's always the rhetorical fascist control freaks who want to take something entirely personal like one's religion or one's sexuality, and try to force their own views on them. And they don't seem shy about self-identifying.

Of course I don't have any problem about self-identifying as a Christian.

First it is rather ridiculous to try and compare this to Fascism. No one here is trying to force Christianity on anyone.

The only thing we are doing is saying you can't make up what a Christian is. You are free to be, or not be a Christian, at your own choice, and I have no problem with it.

However, being a Christian means something. It does not just mean anything you randomly feel like it should mean. Just like the color blue, is not red. Red is red. Blue is blue.

If you posted a picture that was red, and said "look at my blue picture"

View attachment 291538

We would contest that. That is not blue. It is red. You complaining that we are fascist for saying someone who does not follow the teachings of Christ, is not a Christian, is like you saying we're fascist for saying that red square is red, not blue.

Again.... if I joined the Vegan society, and posted pictures of myself eating steak at Longhorn Steakhouse today, they would kick me out out of the Vegan society.

If they did that, would you be here attacking them for being fascist? No. Likely not.

Similarly, Pete is a false prophet. He is not a Christian, though he claims to be. He lives a life that is completely against Christian teaching, though he claims to be Christian. He twists 2,000 years of Biblical doctrine, and then spouts off about what he thinks a Christian should do.

He is evil. He wrong. He is not a Christian.

And so you can whine and cry about "fascist" until the end of your life, I don't care. I'm right. I know I'm right. And I'll keep saying what is clearly true.

The Bible teaches about divorce. A large number of Christians live counter to that teaching.

 

[Lysistrata]

I suspected 50 years ago that Christianity had stopped being centered on the teachings of Jesus soon after he left the planet and became just a rubber stamp on people's ambitions to achieve earthly power and sex. I was right. Sex doesn't define anything in Christianity, but all one hears about is sex, sex, sex!

Depending on one's gender and sexual orientation, one can have sex with 50 or 100 people, and still be a better Christian than someone who refuses to love his or her neighbor, refuses to beat his or her weapons into plowshares, and shows no concern for the strangers among us. Christianity definitely needs another reformation.

 

[JustAGuy1]

“Works” have nothing to do with salvation... that is in the Bible
Ephesians 2:8
“For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God”

There are a number of verses in the Bible which, on their face, establish that justification is by faith alone and works are irrelevant . This are also a number of verses which say that we are judged by our works and that faith without works is dead. Some Christians believe in the former and others in the latter. That's just the way it is.

lol
“Works” Have absolutely nothing to do with salvation… If they did there would be no reason for the crucifixion of Christ.


1. Eph. 2:8-9 - "For BY GRACE are ye SAVED THROUGH FAITH; and that NOT OF
YOURSELVES: it is the GIFT of God: NOT OF WORKS, lest any man should boast."
2. Rom. 4:6-7 - God imputes "Righteousness without works." (See #9, #4, #45, #7, #12, #53)
3. Rom. 10:3 - It's a grave mistake for anyone to try to, "Establish their own righteousness."
4. Rom. 5:17 - Heaven deserving righteousness is a "GIFT," not something you earn.
5. Rom. 5:18 - Justification to God is a "FREE GIFT," not something you work toward.
6. Phil. 3:9 - Paul, as ‘good’ as he was, still wouldn't trust his "Own righteousness" to save him.
7. Rom. 3:22 - God's righteousness is credited to "ALL THEM THAT BELIEVE," not all that work.
8. Rom. 8:3-4 - The flesh is too "Weak" to save itself. We need a Saviour. We need Christ. (See #86)
9. Rom. 4:3 - Abraham's faith, not works, "Was counted unto him for righteousness."
10. Rom. 4:4-5 - Works are "Not reckoned of grace, but of debt." Faith is counted as righteousness.
11. Gal. 3:10 - To earn Heaven you'd have to "Continueth," perfectly, in the whole law. (See #81, #86)
12. Titus 3:5 - "NOT BY WORKS OF RIGHTEOUSNESS which we have done, but according to
his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost."
13. John 5:24 - In Christ we've "PASSED from death unto life." We don't have to "wait" to find out.
14. Rom. 9:31-32 - Israel, "Sought it not by faith, but as it were by the works of the law." (#33, #54)
15. Acts 4:12 - No other name but Christ can save us-- not the name of works, nor our own name.
16. John 1:12-13 - Only God's power, through His Son, makes us a child of God. We are not born into
God's family by "Blood" (heritage, family ‘pedigree’), "Nor will of the flesh" (good works), "Nor will
of man." (minister, or man made religion), "But of God." (See #12, #53, #21, #17, #22, #46, #15)
17. Isa. 45:22 - No one else can save a soul from Hell but God; "There is none else."
18. Acts 13:39 - "And by him [Christ] all that believe are justified from all things, from which ye
COULD NOT BE JUSTIFIED by the law of Moses." (See #33, #54, #53, #5, #42, #64, #82, #87, #80)
19. Rom. 8:7 - We can't follow God's law even if we wanted to. So how can we save ourselves? (#86, #8)
20. Matthew 7:21-23 - Christ describes a future scene in which some who are trusting in their "Many
wonderful works," will, sadly, be told by Christ: "I never knew you: depart from me, Ye that work
iniquity." Their good works will not save them. We all have to trust Christ, and Him ALONE. (#46, #12)
21. John 10:1 - We must enter through Christ, "THE DOOR," not by "Some other way.." (See #46)
22. John 8:24 - A person can work all they want, but it won't save them. Jesus said the bottom line is
that, "If ye believe not that I am he [the only way], ye shall die in your sins." (See #53 and #69)
23. Rom. 4:2 - If Abraham could have saved himself, he'd have something to brag about. (See #25, #1)
24. Acts 10:1-43 - Cornelius' good works would put anyone today to shame, yet he still had to get saved
by trusting solely in Christ to save him. (See #6, #12, #1, #88)
25. Rom. 3:27-28 - "Where is boasting then?...Of WORKS? nay." (See #1 and #23)
26. 1 John 5:13 - If your salvation depends on a lifetime of good works, then why does the Bible teach
that you could "KNOW" for sure, before you die, that you are going to Heaven? The answer is because
salvation doesn't depend on you, but on Christ, who ALREADY paid the price for your sins. (See #87)
27. Heb. 1:3 - "He had BY HIMSELF purged our sins." He doesn't need help from us! (See #15)
28. Heb. 2:3 - If we have to work at earning it, why does the Bible call it "So great salvation"?
29. Heb. 2:9-10 - Christ is "The CAPTAIN of their salvation." He tasted "Death for every man."
30. Heb. 2:14-15 - Christ is the one who will "DELIVER" us from death, not ourselves! (See #53)
31. Heb. 2:17 - Christ makes "RECONCILIATION for the sins." We can't reconcile ourselves.
32. Heb. 5:9 - Christ is "The AUTHOR of eternal salvation," not us! It's not in our hands.



33. Gal. 2:16 - "Knowing that a man IS NOT JUSTIFIED BY THE WORKS of the law, but by the
faith of Jesus Christ, ....that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and NOT by the WORKS
of the law: FOR BY THE WORKS OF THE LAW SHALL NO FLESH BE JUSTIFIED."
34. Heb. 9:28 - "Christ was once offered to bear the sins of many." God won't accept good works.
35. Heb. 10:10-12 - Christ's body was offered "Once for all." So stop insulting God with your works.
36. Heb. 10:14 - "For by one offering he hath perfected for ever them." STOP WORKING at it!
37. Heb. 10:17-18 - "There is no more offering for sin." So stop offering your good works.
38. 2 Cor. 1:9 - "We should not trust in ourselves, but in God," who has ALREADY paid the price.
39. 2 Cor. 1:10 - Christ "Delivered us from so great a death." He had to; we can't deliver ourselves.
40. Eph. 1:12-13 - You are saved by trusting in Christ, and, "After that believed, ye were SEALED."
41. Jer. 17:5 - "Cursed be the man that trusteth in man, and maketh flesh his arm."
42. Job 25:4 - "How then can man be justified with God? or how can he be clean that is born of a
woman?" (For God's answer, see #86, #63, #54, #33, #82, #80, #73, #5 and Isaiah 1:18)
43. Isa. 12:2 - "Behold, God is my salvation; I will trust." Don't trust good works, trust the Saviour.
44. Luke 18:9-14 - Jesus gives a parable teaching that self righteousness WILL NOT save a person.
45. Ezek. 33:13 - "If he trust to his own righteousness..." He better be perfectly sinless or else!
46. John 14:6 - Jesus said, "I am THE WAY...no man cometh unto the Father, BUT BY ME."
47. 1 Tim. 2:5-6 - There's ONLY "One mediator between God and men," Jesus Christ, not ourselves.
48. Col. 2:14 - Christ took our sin debt, "Nailing it to his cross." It's ALREADY paid for! (See #34-37)
49. John 19:30 - While on the cross, Christ said, "It is finished." It's paid. We don't have to work for it.
50. Matt. 11:28-30 - Christ offers "REST" to all those working at trying to earn their way to Heaven.
51. Isa. 53:4-6 - Christ was, "WOUNDED FOR OUR transgressions." Why? So WE don't have to be.
52. Heb. 4:9-10 - The person who accepts Christ as Saviour, "Hath CEASED from his own works."
53. Gal. 2:21 - If you could earn Heaven, why did Christ die? "Then Christ is dead in vain." (See #86, #8)
54. Rom. 3:20 - "Therefore by the deeds of the law there SHALL NO FLESH BE JUSTIFIED in his
sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin." (See #33, #14, #82, #80, #87, #42, #73)
55. Gal. 5:1-4 - "Christ hath made us free." He had to; we can't free ourselves, no matter how "good."
56. 2 Tim. 1:10 - "Our Saviour Jesus Christ, who hath abolished death," with no help from us.
57. 1 John 4:14 - Christ was sent, "To be the Saviour of the world"; we couldn't save ourselves.
58. 1 Tim. 4:10 - "The Saviour of ALL men." Why try to save yourself? You already have a Saviour.
59. Acts 16:30-31 - When the Philippian jailer asked, "What must I do to be saved?" Paul didn't say,
keep the Ten Commandments, but rather, "Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved."
60. Luke 7:49-50 - Christ told the woman: "Thy faith hath saved thee," not thy works! (See #1)
61. Eph. 1:7 - "Redemption through HIS BLOOD, the forgiveness of sins," not through our works.
62. 1 Pet. 1:3-5 - "According to his abundant MERCY," not according to our good deeds. (See #12)
63. Rev. 1:5 - Christ, "Washed us from our sins in his own blood"; can't wash ourselves with works.
64. Titus 3:7 - We are "Justified by his grace," not by our good deeds, baptism, or church membership.
65. Titus 2:11 - "The grace of God that BRINGETH SALVATION hath appeared to ALL MEN."
66. Eph. 4:32 - We are forgiven, "For Christ's sake," not because of our good behavior. (See #88)
67. Eph. 2:4-5 - "(By grace ye are saved)," not by works. The two don't mix according to Rom. 11:6.
68. Acts 26:18 - "Through this man [Christ]...forgiveness of sins," not through our efforts!
69. Heb. 7:25 - Only Christ is "Able to save." Only He can "Make INTERCESSION for them."



70. Rom. 3:10 - "There is none righteous, no, not one." So how can anyone save themselves?
71. Rom. 3:12 - "There is none that doeth good, no, not one." So how can anyone save themselves?
72. Eccl. 7:20 - "There is not a just man upon earth, that doeth good." Can anyone save themselves?
73. Rom. 4:25 - Christ has already died for our sins. He, "Was delivered for our offences and raised
again FOR OUR JUSTIFICATION." So what role does a person play in their own salvation?
74. Rom. 5:10 - "We are reconciled to God by the death of his Son," not by the fruits of our works.
75. John 6:28-29 - "Then said they unto him, WHAT SHALL WE DO, that we might work the works
of God? Jesus answered and said unto them, THIS IS THE WORK OF GOD, THAT YE BELIEVE
ON HIM whom he hath sent." (See #59, #22, #10, #53)
76. 1 Pet. 3:18 - "Suffered for us...that HE might bring us to God." Do we have to help Him save us?
Didn't He suffer enough to pay the price? Heb. 7:25 says He did. He saves to "The uttermost."
77. Matt. 5:20 - Your self-righteousness would have to surpass that of the Pharisees-- Impossible! (#70)
78. 1 John 2:2 - Christ, "Is the propitiation [payment]...for the sins of the whole world." If He can
pay for the sins of the whole world, why would He need our help in saving us-- mere individuals?
79. Rom. 8:8 - "They that are in the flesh cannot please God." So what chance does anyone have?
80. Rom. 3:23-25 - Through Christ's death we are "Justified freely" (made right with God). His death
provides: "Redemption" (we are bought back to God), "Propitiation" (a settlement of our sin debt),
"Remission [forgiveness] of sins." It's all by God's "Grace" not our works. (See #1, #35, #36, #78)
81. James 2:10-11 - "For whosoever shall keep the whole law, and yet offend in ONE POINT, he is
guilty of all." We can't possibly save ourselves; God demands sinless perfection. We need a Saviour.
82. Romans 5:8-9 - We are "Justified by his blood," not our good works. That's why "When we were
sinners, Christ died for us." Therefore, "We shall be saved from wrath through him."
83. Matt. 18:11 - Jesus came "To save that which was lost [us]." Why? Because we can't save ourselves.
Otherwise, why send Christ to die for our sins if we could pay for them ourselves? (See #53, #8, #86, #76)
84. Acts 15:10-11 - "Through the grace of the Lord Jesus Christ we shall be saved," not through
works. Grace is not works; works is not grace, as explained in Rom. 11:6 (see #90, #1, #53)
85. 2 Cor. 5:21 - "Christ was made sin for us...that we might be made the righteousness of God in
him." Why trust our own "righteousness" if God offers to impute us His righteousness? (Rom. 4:22-24)
86. Matt. 19:25-26 - "When his disciples heard it, they were exceedingly amazed, saying, WHO THEN
CAN BE SAVED? But Jesus beheld them, and said unto them, WITH MEN THIS IS IMPOSSIBLE;
but with God all things are possible." (See #8, #41, #42, #81, #11, #45, #70, #19)
87. Rom. 5:1 - "Therefore being JUSTIFIED BY FAITH, we have PEACE WITH GOD through our
Lord Jesus Christ." There can be no real peace when a person spends their life wondering if they have done
enough good works. Peace is knowing it's been paid for ALREADY. (See #52, #50, #26, #53)
88. 2 Tim. 1:9 - "Who hath saved us, and called us with an holy calling, NOT ACCORDING TO OUR
WORKS, but according to his own purpose and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus before the
world began." God had a "payment plan" ready before any of us were even alive to work!
89. Rom. 10:9-13 - "That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus [i.e. Repent], and shalt
believe in thine heart [i.e. Trust] that God hath raised him from the dead, THOU SHALT BE SAVED
...For whosoever shall CALL upon the name of the Lord SHALL BE SAVED." (See #15)
90. Rom. 11:6 - "And if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace."
91. Gal. 1:4, 92. Rom. 1:16, 93. Gal. 3:21, 94. Heb. 9:22, 95. 1 Tim. 2:6, 96. Acts 10:43,
97. Isa. 43:11, 98. Gal. 3:24, 99. Heb. 9:12-14, 100. 1 Tim. 1:15, 101. Heb. 6:1





IF you were to die today, are you 100% SURE
you would go to Heaven? The Bible says
YOU CAN BE SURE (1 John 5:13).
BUT FIRST, you must realize that what keeps you
from going to Heaven are your sins, because:
"...your iniquities [sins] have separated
between you and your God," Isaiah 59:2.
In fact, in God's eyes YOU ARE A SINNER: "For
all have sinned, and come short
of the glory of God;" Romans 3:23.

SECONDLY, you must realize that there is
NOTHING you can do to save yourself and earn
Heaven: "For by grace are ye saved through
faith; and that not of yourselves: it is
the gift of God: Not of works, lest any
man should boast." Eph. 2:8-9 Baptism, good
deeds, church membership, self-righteousness are
all examples of good works that cannot save you,
because: "Not by works of
righteousness which we have done, but
according to his mercy he [Christ] saved
us," Titus 3:5.

THE ONLY WAY you can get saved is through
Jesus Christ. He said: "I am the way, the
truth, and the life: no man cometh unto
the Father, but by me." (John 14:6) THAT'S
WHY: "...while we were yet sinners, Christ
died for us." (Rom. 5:8-9)

THEREFORE: You must REPENT (change your
mind); admit that you are a Hell deserving sinner
and can't save yourself. And call upon Christ, and
Him alone, to save you. "if thou shalt confess
with thy mouth the Lord Jesus [REPENT], and
shalt believe in thine heart [TRUST] that God
hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be
saved." Romans 10:9

The man hanging on the cross next to Jesus became a believer and was never baptized nor did anything for his new faith. Yet minutes later went to paradise with Jesus.

This is gonna be an all time classic. Here we go .............


---------------- Link?

I discount any of Paul's letters to anyone. Paul was not an Apostle, he never met Jesus, and Paul's words are not the words of Jesus.

"Faith without deeds is dead" were Jesus' words, not Paul's.

Bible Gateway passage: James 2:14-26 - New King James Version

Why would anyone care what you "discount"? A thing that is true in now way requires anyone to believe it.

 

[Lysistrata]

Here's a suggestion: that Christians of one belief leave Christians of another belief alone? I would say the same thing to Muslims who are Sunni and those who are Shi'ite. Just go your separate ways for religious purposes and then get together and party? What is the point of anyone carrying on historical intra-faith and inter-faith religious squabbles? What is anyone trying to prove? What is the point? I've always said, die and find out.

 

[Pogo]

Do you just want me to repeat what I already said?

Well when you claim to be a Christian, then by definition, means you follow the teachings of the Christian Bible.

Pete is a homo. That's what he is, and he's open about it.

These are mutually exclusive. You can't both follow the teaching of the Bible, and be a homo. So yes, we're talking about sex, because it matters and is relevant to this topic.

If I claimed to be a Vegan, and campaigned as a Vegan, and someone brought up pictures of me eating a steak at Texas Roadhouse (which I'm going to this weekend)..... would you laugh if other right-wingers were complaining "You left-wingers are obsessed with meat!" when you complained I wasn't really a Vegan?

Yeah you would, because me eating a steak would be central to the discussion, so yeah, the left-wingers would be obsessed with the fact I'm eating a steak, and claiming to be a Vegan.

Well sparky.... he's ain't a Christian.... or he needs to stop being a rump ranger. It's one or the other. Can't do both.

We can keep repeating to each other as long as you like.

You most certainly can be a Christian and not be perfect. One of the greatest preachers in the country was a man named A.A. Allen. He led thousands to Christ. His revivals would be packed. He died from alcoholism. He simply could not beat it.

Go to most church services and before or later you will hear someone gossip about someone. I'm not even going to argue with you whether it's a sin or not. Even if it was, that is between him and God.

Number of problems with your statement. But before I get to that, let me make it clear that I do not know know A.A.Allen, nor do I know if he was a Christian.

First problem is, there is a difference between not being perfect, and not even trying. Christianity has never been about being perfect, but it is most certainly about trying.

You can be a Christian, and have a struggle with homosexuality. You can NOT be a Christian, and openly embrace homosexuality.

You can be a Christian, had have murdered someone. Paul was a murderer. You can NOT be a Christian, and continue to murder people.

A person can repent of their sins, and be saved. But repenting of sin, means that you turn away from that which is evil, and regret doing it. If you openly embrace sin, and do not regret that sin, nor turn away from it.... then no you are not a Christian.

Again, replace this sin with any other sin.... Murder. Can you just murder forever, and hey G-d will save me because he doesn't expect me to be perfect? No. Even those who say you can repent on your death bed, and be saved..... that involves believing that what you did was wrong, and regretting it. It means if you had the chance to do it again, you would choose not to.

You will not be saved if you do not regret what you did. Pete doesn't even believe what he did was wrong. So no, he's not saved. Period.

Second problem is, there is a difference between being used by G-d, and being saved by G-d. They are not the same. Being used for the sake of Christianity, and being saved into Christianity are not identical.

I would point to King Cyrus of Persia for example. Isaiah 45, directly named the King who would bring his people back to Jerusalem. 100 years later, Ezra records the Cyrus of Persia allowed the Jews to return.

Let me ask you, was Cyrus a G-d fearing Jew? Was he a believer in the torah? No, of course not. Yet he was used by G-d to achieve his goals.

There are many times throughout the old and new testament, where G-d used non-believing people, to promote his plans.

G-d can use anyone to spread Christianity, whether they are a Christian or not.

Third problem is, even saying you are a Christian, and preaching the Bible, does not automatically make you a Christian.

And this is really clear in the Bible itself.

Many will say to me on that day, 'Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name and in your name drive out demons and in your name perform many miracles?'

Then I will tell them plainly, 'I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers!' -Jesus
​

In Matthew 7:22, Jesus himself says very directly, that even people who say "lord lord" and even those who "prophesy in jesus name" and even those that "perform many miracles" .... even those people, there will be many who are not Christians.

Saying Jesus is Lord, teaching the Bible, and doing good deeds... someone can do all of that, and still not be a Christian.

So as I said at the start, I don't know this A. A. Allen, but he may or may not have been a Christian. Generally, the Bible is clear that G-d gives the power to overcome the struggles of life. If he couldn't overcome a beer, then I would question if he ever knew the Lord.

No temptation has overtaken you except what is common to mankind. And God is faithful; he will not let you be tempted beyond what you can bear. But when you are tempted, he will also provide a way out so that you can endure it.
1 Corr 10:13​

Again, I don't know. But I do know that you can't assume someone used by G-d is necessarily a Christian.

However, what we do know is that Pete is simply not. He has denied that something fundamental to the Christian faith, is even wrong. That's not a thing. Biblical doctrine hasn't changed in 2,000 years, and it won't change in the next 2,000 years.

You are unable to judge any of that. I'm not going to vote for Pete because I have a problem with him so readily say he would attack Mexico and that is something I do not understand but his relationship with God is between him and God, not him and me.

It's always the rhetorical fascist control freaks who want to take something entirely personal like one's religion or one's sexuality, and try to force their own views on them. And they don't seem shy about self-identifying.

Of course I don't have any problem about self-identifying as a Christian.

That's not what the above means. It means self-identifying as what I called "rhetorical fascist control freak". Someone who wants to dick-tate "Don't tell me what you mean; let me tell you what you mean". People who for reasons unfathomable think they can dismiss what's in another person's mind and insert their own content, as if no one but them has the right to thought. As if you own their mind.

First it is rather ridiculous to try and compare this to Fascism. No one here is trying to force Christianity on anyone.

No -- you're trying to force thoughts.

The only thing we are doing is saying you can't make up what a Christian is. You are free to be, or not be a Christian, at your own choice, and I have no problem with it.

On the contrary, you absolutely can (and you already did and you'll do so again below). Religion is a personal expression. One uses it in the way that one finds most fitting. The way you use it may be different from the way someone else does.

However, being a Christian means something. It does not just mean anything you randomly feel like it should mean. Just like the color blue, is not red. Red is red. Blue is blue.

If you posted a picture that was red, and said "look at my blue picture"

View attachment 291538

We would contest that. That is not blue. It is red. You complaining that we are fascist for saying someone who does not follow the teachings of Christ, is not a Christian, is like you saying we're fascist for saying that red square is red, not blue.

Not an analogy. "Red" and "Blue" are quantifiable standards on which we all agree. I can't tell you "don't tell me you think that's red, I'm telling you you think it's blue" because those are not open to interpretation. We can argue about whether the wall should be painted red or blue, but that's where we get into subjectivity -- personal preferences. Neither of us would be "wrong".

But let's go back to you for an illustration of the rhetorical fascism control freak bit where you directly contradict the free-will personal choice aspect of religion:

... Pete is a false prophet. He is not a Christian, though he claims to be. He lives a life that is completely against Christian teaching, though he claims to be Christian. He twists 2,000 years of Biblical doctrine, and then spouts off about what he thinks a Christian should do.

He is evil. He wrong. He is not a Christian.

And so you can whine and cry about "fascist" until the end of your life, I don't care. I'm right. I know I'm right. And I'll keep saying what is clearly true.

Thanks, that's yet another demonstration. And I must say it's bizarre to hear doing charitable work characterized as "evil". I shudder to think what that says about you.

Moreover it's you who twisted his words --- he does not "spout off about what he thinks a Christian should do" at all. Nothing in that passage was put in the third person. He specifically said "MY faith". Not yours, not somebody else's, not Christians in general -- "MY". He even prefaced it with "let me tell you what's in my heart". Again, MY heart, not yours, not somebody else's. "MY" is singular and first person. You seem to find that unacceptable and now you try to replace it with what you WISH he had said (but didn't) by twisting it into plural third person.

Voilà. Rhetorical fascism. Putting words in someone else's mouth.

Watch this. You'll do it again:

You are unable to judge any of that. I'm not going to vote for Pete because I have a problem with him so readily say he would attack Mexico and that is something I do not understand but his relationship with God is between him and God, not him and me.

No, you are wrong. I am most certainly able to judge any of that, thank you very much. And I just did.

Try it this way; turn it around: Do you see Buttigieg declaring that you are not a Christian? Why should you get to do it and he can't? Well he can, but he doesn't. Which means YOU are not the arbiter of "what a Christian is". Why would you want to be that? Why isn't someone allowed to have his own thoughts?

"Judge not, that ye be not judged. For with what judgment ye judge, ye shall be judged: and with what measure ye mete, it shall be measured to you again" Or put a more contemporary way, "Live and let live".

 

[Andylusion]

You most certainly can be a Christian and not be perfect. One of the greatest preachers in the country was a man named A.A. Allen. He led thousands to Christ. His revivals would be packed. He died from alcoholism. He simply could not beat it.

Go to most church services and before or later you will hear someone gossip about someone. I'm not even going to argue with you whether it's a sin or not. Even if it was, that is between him and God.

Number of problems with your statement. But before I get to that, let me make it clear that I do not know know A.A.Allen, nor do I know if he was a Christian.

First problem is, there is a difference between not being perfect, and not even trying. Christianity has never been about being perfect, but it is most certainly about trying.

You can be a Christian, and have a struggle with homosexuality. You can NOT be a Christian, and openly embrace homosexuality.

You can be a Christian, had have murdered someone. Paul was a murderer. You can NOT be a Christian, and continue to murder people.

A person can repent of their sins, and be saved. But repenting of sin, means that you turn away from that which is evil, and regret doing it. If you openly embrace sin, and do not regret that sin, nor turn away from it.... then no you are not a Christian.

Again, replace this sin with any other sin.... Murder. Can you just murder forever, and hey G-d will save me because he doesn't expect me to be perfect? No. Even those who say you can repent on your death bed, and be saved..... that involves believing that what you did was wrong, and regretting it. It means if you had the chance to do it again, you would choose not to.

You will not be saved if you do not regret what you did. Pete doesn't even believe what he did was wrong. So no, he's not saved. Period.

Second problem is, there is a difference between being used by G-d, and being saved by G-d. They are not the same. Being used for the sake of Christianity, and being saved into Christianity are not identical.

I would point to King Cyrus of Persia for example. Isaiah 45, directly named the King who would bring his people back to Jerusalem. 100 years later, Ezra records the Cyrus of Persia allowed the Jews to return.

Let me ask you, was Cyrus a G-d fearing Jew? Was he a believer in the torah? No, of course not. Yet he was used by G-d to achieve his goals.

There are many times throughout the old and new testament, where G-d used non-believing people, to promote his plans.

G-d can use anyone to spread Christianity, whether they are a Christian or not.

Third problem is, even saying you are a Christian, and preaching the Bible, does not automatically make you a Christian.

And this is really clear in the Bible itself.

Many will say to me on that day, 'Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name and in your name drive out demons and in your name perform many miracles?'

Then I will tell them plainly, 'I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers!' -Jesus
​

In Matthew 7:22, Jesus himself says very directly, that even people who say "lord lord" and even those who "prophesy in jesus name" and even those that "perform many miracles" .... even those people, there will be many who are not Christians.

Saying Jesus is Lord, teaching the Bible, and doing good deeds... someone can do all of that, and still not be a Christian.

So as I said at the start, I don't know this A. A. Allen, but he may or may not have been a Christian. Generally, the Bible is clear that G-d gives the power to overcome the struggles of life. If he couldn't overcome a beer, then I would question if he ever knew the Lord.

No temptation has overtaken you except what is common to mankind. And God is faithful; he will not let you be tempted beyond what you can bear. But when you are tempted, he will also provide a way out so that you can endure it.
1 Corr 10:13​

Again, I don't know. But I do know that you can't assume someone used by G-d is necessarily a Christian.

However, what we do know is that Pete is simply not. He has denied that something fundamental to the Christian faith, is even wrong. That's not a thing. Biblical doctrine hasn't changed in 2,000 years, and it won't change in the next 2,000 years.

You are unable to judge any of that. I'm not going to vote for Pete because I have a problem with him so readily say he would attack Mexico and that is something I do not understand but his relationship with God is between him and God, not him and me.

It's always the rhetorical fascist control freaks who want to take something entirely personal like one's religion or one's sexuality, and try to force their own views on them. And they don't seem shy about self-identifying.

Of course I don't have any problem about self-identifying as a Christian.

First it is rather ridiculous to try and compare this to Fascism. No one here is trying to force Christianity on anyone.

The only thing we are doing is saying you can't make up what a Christian is. You are free to be, or not be a Christian, at your own choice, and I have no problem with it.

However, being a Christian means something. It does not just mean anything you randomly feel like it should mean. Just like the color blue, is not red. Red is red. Blue is blue.

If you posted a picture that was red, and said "look at my blue picture"

View attachment 291538

We would contest that. That is not blue. It is red. You complaining that we are fascist for saying someone who does not follow the teachings of Christ, is not a Christian, is like you saying we're fascist for saying that red square is red, not blue.

Again.... if I joined the Vegan society, and posted pictures of myself eating steak at Longhorn Steakhouse today, they would kick me out out of the Vegan society.

If they did that, would you be here attacking them for being fascist? No. Likely not.

Similarly, Pete is a false prophet. He is not a Christian, though he claims to be. He lives a life that is completely against Christian teaching, though he claims to be Christian. He twists 2,000 years of Biblical doctrine, and then spouts off about what he thinks a Christian should do.

He is evil. He wrong. He is not a Christian.

And so you can whine and cry about "fascist" until the end of your life, I don't care. I'm right. I know I'm right. And I'll keep saying what is clearly true.

The Bible teaches about divorce. A large number of Christians live counter to that teaching.

Live counter to that?

We just covered this... there is a huge difference between choosing to live continually in sin, and sinning and repenting. I assume you understand that.

So when you say "they live counter to that"... how?

The question isn't do people sin. All people sin.

The question is, do they repent or not?

Additionally, Divorce is a tricky type of sin, because there are people who would never divorce, but had a spouse that would not accept it.

We had this in my parents church. The woman simply refused to compromise on anything. In fact, we tried to give counseling, while the husband was begging to keep the marriage, as he really loved this woman. Nevertheless, she refused to talk to the church leadership, and we told her that until she repented, that she was not welcome at the church anymore.

He kept showing up there (she brought him to our church, but before was not a regular attendee), he did so to see if there was any way to repair the marriage, even after she divorced him.

So he is divorced.

But can you say he was living contrary to Biblical teaching? No. He never wanted a divorce. He fought as best he knew how to prevent it, and even to make it right after being divorced.

Further, can you say the church lived counter to Christianity? No. The church worked to prevent the divorce. They operated as best they could, to help repair the marriage. And when the woman refuse to submit to the authority of the church, they kicked her out as a non-believer, exactly as the Bible describes.

Lastly, let's talk about the woman herself. Our church no longer considers her a Christian. (this was some years ago now) So there are two possibilities. Either she is unrepentant, and thus is not a Christian.... or she is repentant and is.

We don't know where her heart is on this today. If she repents, then G-d is kind and just, to forgive sins of the repentant heart.

So she is either not a Christian, and living contrary to the Bible. Or she is living according to the Bible and is a Christian.

Thus, I disagree with your assessment that Christians live contrary to the Bible.

Now there are people who claims to be Christian, but are not.

Again, I just quoted you the passage.....

Many will say to me on that day, 'Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name and in your name drive out demons and in your name perform many miracles?'

Then I will tell them plainly, 'I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers!' -Jesus​

What is the whole point of that passage? That people are going to say "I'm a Christian!" and yet do not live or follow the teachings of Christ.

When you see someone who lives crazy, and says "I'm a Christian"... what you are seeing is not that Christians don't follow the teachings of Christ... it's simply that you are seeing some who is not a Christian, but pretends to be.

An example I heard years ago... Sitting in a pew does not make you a Christian, anymore than sitting in your garage makes you a Mercedes.

I'll give you a simple example...... The Bible says that Christians are too pray for the peace of Israel, and that G-d will curse those who curse the Jews, and bless those that bless the Jews.

So every time you see someone who claims to be a Christian, and see them saying hateful things about Jews..... they are not Christians.

 

[pknopp]

Number of problems with your statement. But before I get to that, let me make it clear that I do not know know A.A.Allen, nor do I know if he was a Christian.

First problem is, there is a difference between not being perfect, and not even trying. Christianity has never been about being perfect, but it is most certainly about trying.

You can be a Christian, and have a struggle with homosexuality. You can NOT be a Christian, and openly embrace homosexuality.

You can be a Christian, had have murdered someone. Paul was a murderer. You can NOT be a Christian, and continue to murder people.

A person can repent of their sins, and be saved. But repenting of sin, means that you turn away from that which is evil, and regret doing it. If you openly embrace sin, and do not regret that sin, nor turn away from it.... then no you are not a Christian.

Again, replace this sin with any other sin.... Murder. Can you just murder forever, and hey G-d will save me because he doesn't expect me to be perfect? No. Even those who say you can repent on your death bed, and be saved..... that involves believing that what you did was wrong, and regretting it. It means if you had the chance to do it again, you would choose not to.

You will not be saved if you do not regret what you did. Pete doesn't even believe what he did was wrong. So no, he's not saved. Period.

Second problem is, there is a difference between being used by G-d, and being saved by G-d. They are not the same. Being used for the sake of Christianity, and being saved into Christianity are not identical.

I would point to King Cyrus of Persia for example. Isaiah 45, directly named the King who would bring his people back to Jerusalem. 100 years later, Ezra records the Cyrus of Persia allowed the Jews to return.

Let me ask you, was Cyrus a G-d fearing Jew? Was he a believer in the torah? No, of course not. Yet he was used by G-d to achieve his goals.

There are many times throughout the old and new testament, where G-d used non-believing people, to promote his plans.

G-d can use anyone to spread Christianity, whether they are a Christian or not.

Third problem is, even saying you are a Christian, and preaching the Bible, does not automatically make you a Christian.

And this is really clear in the Bible itself.

Many will say to me on that day, 'Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name and in your name drive out demons and in your name perform many miracles?'

Then I will tell them plainly, 'I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers!' -Jesus
​

In Matthew 7:22, Jesus himself says very directly, that even people who say "lord lord" and even those who "prophesy in jesus name" and even those that "perform many miracles" .... even those people, there will be many who are not Christians.

Saying Jesus is Lord, teaching the Bible, and doing good deeds... someone can do all of that, and still not be a Christian.

So as I said at the start, I don't know this A. A. Allen, but he may or may not have been a Christian. Generally, the Bible is clear that G-d gives the power to overcome the struggles of life. If he couldn't overcome a beer, then I would question if he ever knew the Lord.

No temptation has overtaken you except what is common to mankind. And God is faithful; he will not let you be tempted beyond what you can bear. But when you are tempted, he will also provide a way out so that you can endure it.
1 Corr 10:13​

Again, I don't know. But I do know that you can't assume someone used by G-d is necessarily a Christian.

However, what we do know is that Pete is simply not. He has denied that something fundamental to the Christian faith, is even wrong. That's not a thing. Biblical doctrine hasn't changed in 2,000 years, and it won't change in the next 2,000 years.

You are unable to judge any of that. I'm not going to vote for Pete because I have a problem with him so readily say he would attack Mexico and that is something I do not understand but his relationship with God is between him and God, not him and me.

It's always the rhetorical fascist control freaks who want to take something entirely personal like one's religion or one's sexuality, and try to force their own views on them. And they don't seem shy about self-identifying.

Of course I don't have any problem about self-identifying as a Christian.

First it is rather ridiculous to try and compare this to Fascism. No one here is trying to force Christianity on anyone.

The only thing we are doing is saying you can't make up what a Christian is. You are free to be, or not be a Christian, at your own choice, and I have no problem with it.

However, being a Christian means something. It does not just mean anything you randomly feel like it should mean. Just like the color blue, is not red. Red is red. Blue is blue.

If you posted a picture that was red, and said "look at my blue picture"

View attachment 291538

We would contest that. That is not blue. It is red. You complaining that we are fascist for saying someone who does not follow the teachings of Christ, is not a Christian, is like you saying we're fascist for saying that red square is red, not blue.

Again.... if I joined the Vegan society, and posted pictures of myself eating steak at Longhorn Steakhouse today, they would kick me out out of the Vegan society.

If they did that, would you be here attacking them for being fascist? No. Likely not.

Similarly, Pete is a false prophet. He is not a Christian, though he claims to be. He lives a life that is completely against Christian teaching, though he claims to be Christian. He twists 2,000 years of Biblical doctrine, and then spouts off about what he thinks a Christian should do.

He is evil. He wrong. He is not a Christian.

And so you can whine and cry about "fascist" until the end of your life, I don't care. I'm right. I know I'm right. And I'll keep saying what is clearly true.

The Bible teaches about divorce. A large number of Christians live counter to that teaching.

Live counter to that?

We just covered this... there is a huge difference between choosing to live continually in sin, and sinning and repenting. I assume you understand that.

So when you say "they live counter to that"... how?

The question isn't do people sin. All people sin.

The question is, do they repent or not?

Additionally, Divorce is a tricky type of sin, because there are people who would never divorce, but had a spouse that would not accept it.

We had this in my parents church. The woman simply refused to compromise on anything. In fact, we tried to give counseling, while the husband was begging to keep the marriage, as he really loved this woman. Nevertheless, she refused to talk to the church leadership, and we told her that until she repented, that she was not welcome at the church anymore.

He kept showing up there (she brought him to our church, but before was not a regular attendee), he did so to see if there was any way to repair the marriage, even after she divorced him.

So he is divorced.

But can you say he was living contrary to Biblical teaching? No. He never wanted a divorce. He fought as best he knew how to prevent it, and even to make it right after being divorced.

Further, can you say the church lived counter to Christianity? No. The church worked to prevent the divorce. They operated as best they could, to help repair the marriage. And when the woman refuse to submit to the authority of the church, they kicked her out as a non-believer, exactly as the Bible describes.

Lastly, let's talk about the woman herself. Our church no longer considers her a Christian. (this was some years ago now) So there are two possibilities. Either she is unrepentant, and thus is not a Christian.... or she is repentant and is.

We don't know where her heart is on this today. If she repents, then G-d is kind and just, to forgive sins of the repentant heart.

So she is either not a Christian, and living contrary to the Bible. Or she is living according to the Bible and is a Christian.

Thus, I disagree with your assessment that Christians live contrary to the Bible.

Now there are people who claims to be Christian, but are not.

Again, I just quoted you the passage.....

Many will say to me on that day, 'Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name and in your name drive out demons and in your name perform many miracles?'

Then I will tell them plainly, 'I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers!' -Jesus​

What is the whole point of that passage? That people are going to say "I'm a Christian!" and yet do not live or follow the teachings of Christ.

When you see someone who lives crazy, and says "I'm a Christian"... what you are seeing is not that Christians don't follow the teachings of Christ... it's simply that you are seeing some who is not a Christian, but pretends to be.

An example I heard years ago... Sitting in a pew does not make you a Christian, anymore than sitting in your garage makes you a Mercedes.

I'll give you a simple example...... The Bible says that Christians are too pray for the peace of Israel, and that G-d will curse those who curse the Jews, and bless those that bless the Jews.

So every time you see someone who claims to be a Christian, and see them saying hateful things about Jews..... they are not Christians.

According to the Bible they are committing adultery if they remarry.

Whosoever putteth away his wife, and marrieth another, committeth adultery: and whosoever marrieth her that is put away from her husband committeth adultery.”

Luke 16:18

It doesn't stop being adultery because you say "sorry".

 

[Andylusion]

I suspected 50 years ago that Christianity had stopped being centered on the teachings of Jesus soon after he left the planet and became just a rubber stamp on people's ambitions to achieve earthly power and sex. I was right. Sex doesn't define anything in Christianity, but all one hears about is sex, sex, sex!

Depending on one's gender and sexual orientation, one can have sex with 50 or 100 people, and still be a better Christian than someone who refuses to love his or her neighbor, refuses to beat his or her weapons into plowshares, and shows no concern for the strangers among us. Christianity definitely needs another reformation.

But that's not true. I hear many different complaints by the Pagans, not just sex.

No, one can not have sex with 100 people they are not married to, and still be a Christian. I don't even know where you get that from.

About 10 years ago, one of the Church's assistant pastors, it was discovered he was sleeping with one of the members of the Choir. He was removed from leadership on the very day this was found out.

So where do you get this idea that you can screw around with a 100 people? He was removed after sleeping with ONE woman he was not married to. I don't even think he was married either. The Bible is clear, you are not to touch a woman you are not married to.

refuses to beat his or her weapons into plowshares

What are you smoking?

Isaiah 2:2-4

In the last days the mountain of the LORD's temple will be established as the highest of the mountains; it will be exalted above the hills, and all nations will stream to it.
Many peoples will come and say, "Come, let us go up to the mountain of the LORD, to the temple of the God of Jacob. He will teach us his ways, so that we may walk in his paths." The law will go out from Zion, the word of the LORD from Jerusalem.
He will judge between the nations and will settle disputes for many peoples. They will beat their swords into plowshares and their spears into pruning hooks. Nation will not take up sword against nation, nor will they train for war anymore.
​

"In the last days"
"Temple of the God of Jacob"
"Law will go out from Zion"
"Nation will not take up sword against nation"

Let's review..... In the last days, the Temple to the G-d of Jabob, will be the center of international power. This refers to the return of Christ, who will come to rule the entire world, and during that time there will be world peace, and people will not have war.

During that time, because there is no war, people will beat their swords into plowshares.

No one will be forced to beat their swords into plowshares. People will do it voluntarily, because there is no war or violence.

You are taking a small tiny quote out of context, and acting like it even applies. The Temple to the G-d of Jacob doesn't even exist yet. Jesus the Christ has no returned, and there is no world peace.

There is no reason to beat our swords into plowshares yet, because the world is still violent.

You know what this illustrates? This illustrates the problem with all anti-Christian left-wingers. It's not that Christians do not follow Christian teaching.... but rather that you simply make up your own mythical Christian teaching that doesn't exist. Then you claim we are not following this pseudo Christian teaching you made up in your own mind.

shows no concern for the strangers among us

Ridiculous.... I just posted dozens of examples of Evangelical groups and charities that operating for the benefit of strangers. We just had a winter coat drive for kids, where the church donated over 9,000 coats to poor kids in Columbus Ohio area. Our congregation bought so many coats, that 4 different stores around the church sold completely out.

someone who refuses to love his or her neighbor

My elderly parents in their mid-70s still make food for their neighbors. Moreover, they go to Children's hospital, and care for the kids whose parents are out of the country.

Christianity definitely needs another reformation

I would say there are specific Christian groups that need reformed.... but most of what you posted here, is just myths made up in your own head.

 

[Andylusion]

Here's a suggestion: that Christians of one belief leave Christians of another belief alone? I would say the same thing to Muslims who are Sunni and those who are Shi'ite. Just go your separate ways for religious purposes and then get together and party? What is the point of anyone carrying on historical intra-faith and inter-faith religious squabbles? What is anyone trying to prove? What is the point? I've always said, die and find out.

I don't see Christians of one belief, storming the church of those of another.

However, Christianity is not a ideological buffet where you can pick and choose what you believe. Sorry.

Now there are minor differences of opinion, rather than doctrine. For example my parents Church taught you should never go to a movie theater.

There is nothing in the Bible about movie theaters either way.... so that is a difference of opinion, not doctrine.

Thus I would never criticize my parents church, because while my opinion is that movies like Toy Story are not somehow inherently bad.... it isn't a violation of Christian teaching to also say, don't go to movies.

So I would leave that alone, as you said.

However, when it comes to fundamental doctrine of the Christian faith, handed down for thousands of years..... like Jesus was G-d, and Jesus came back from the dead... and fundamental morality like marriage is between a man and a woman, and don't murder or lie.....

These things are not negotiable. And I'm not going to apologize to you or anyone else, for calling out someone who is a false prophet and needs to be called out as a fake Christian.

And moreover Lysistrata.... not only am I going to do this with or without your aproval, but we Christians are actually ordered to do this by scripture itself.

Romans 16:17

“Now I beseech you, brethren, mark them which cause divisions and offenses contrary to the doctrine which you have learned; and avoid them.”

So let me be clear.... not only are we going to continue to call out Pete for his false made up phony 'christianity', but we are directly called to do exactly that.

And we will.
And you won't stop us.
And we don't care what you think.

That's not a dig at you... it is simply us practicing our faith, and we are not ashamed of it, nor embarrassed by it, and we understand you are pissed off and offended..... but we don't care. This isn't your business, but rather the business of Christianity defending the Christian faith. Your opinion does not matter to us on this.

You want to talk about the minimum wage, I'll listen. But this is our faith, and our Bible, that has been passed down to us for thousands of years. What you think is of little consequence.

 

[pknopp]

Here's a suggestion: that Christians of one belief leave Christians of another belief alone? I would say the same thing to Muslims who are Sunni and those who are Shi'ite. Just go your separate ways for religious purposes and then get together and party? What is the point of anyone carrying on historical intra-faith and inter-faith religious squabbles? What is anyone trying to prove? What is the point? I've always said, die and find out.

I don't see Christians of one belief, storming the church of those of another.

However, Christianity is not a ideological buffet where you can pick and choose what you believe. Sorry.

Now there are minor differences of opinion, rather than doctrine. For example my parents Church taught you should never go to a movie theater.

There is nothing in the Bible about movie theaters either way.... so that is a difference of opinion, not doctrine.

Thus I would never criticize my parents church, because while my opinion is that movies like Toy Story are not somehow inherently bad.... it isn't a violation of Christian teaching to also say, don't go to movies.

So I would leave that alone, as you said.

However, when it comes to fundamental doctrine of the Christian faith, handed down for thousands of years..... like Jesus was G-d, and Jesus came back from the dead... and fundamental morality like marriage is between a man and a woman, and don't murder or lie.....

These things are not negotiable. And I'm not going to apologize to you or anyone else, for calling out someone who is a false prophet and needs to be called out as a fake Christian.

And moreover Lysistrata.... not only am I going to do this with or without your aproval, but we Christians are actually ordered to do this by scripture itself.

Romans 16:17

“Now I beseech you, brethren, mark them which cause divisions and offenses contrary to the doctrine which you have learned; and avoid them.”

So let me be clear.... not only are we going to continue to call out Pete for his false made up phony 'christianity', but we are directly called to do exactly that.

And we will.
And you won't stop us.
And we don't care what you think.

That's not a dig at you... it is simply us practicing our faith, and we are not ashamed of it, nor embarrassed by it, and we understand you are pissed off and offended..... but we don't care. This isn't your business, but rather the business of Christianity defending the Christian faith. Your opinion does not matter to us on this.

You want to talk about the minimum wage, I'll listen. But this is our faith, and our Bible, that has been passed down to us for thousands of years. What you think is of little consequence.

Do you demand those committing adultery to stop? To leave their adulterous relationships?

 

[Andylusion]

You are unable to judge any of that. I'm not going to vote for Pete because I have a problem with him so readily say he would attack Mexico and that is something I do not understand but his relationship with God is between him and God, not him and me.

It's always the rhetorical fascist control freaks who want to take something entirely personal like one's religion or one's sexuality, and try to force their own views on them. And they don't seem shy about self-identifying.

Of course I don't have any problem about self-identifying as a Christian.

First it is rather ridiculous to try and compare this to Fascism. No one here is trying to force Christianity on anyone.

The only thing we are doing is saying you can't make up what a Christian is. You are free to be, or not be a Christian, at your own choice, and I have no problem with it.

However, being a Christian means something. It does not just mean anything you randomly feel like it should mean. Just like the color blue, is not red. Red is red. Blue is blue.

If you posted a picture that was red, and said "look at my blue picture"

View attachment 291538

We would contest that. That is not blue. It is red. You complaining that we are fascist for saying someone who does not follow the teachings of Christ, is not a Christian, is like you saying we're fascist for saying that red square is red, not blue.

Again.... if I joined the Vegan society, and posted pictures of myself eating steak at Longhorn Steakhouse today, they would kick me out out of the Vegan society.

If they did that, would you be here attacking them for being fascist? No. Likely not.

Similarly, Pete is a false prophet. He is not a Christian, though he claims to be. He lives a life that is completely against Christian teaching, though he claims to be Christian. He twists 2,000 years of Biblical doctrine, and then spouts off about what he thinks a Christian should do.

He is evil. He wrong. He is not a Christian.

And so you can whine and cry about "fascist" until the end of your life, I don't care. I'm right. I know I'm right. And I'll keep saying what is clearly true.

The Bible teaches about divorce. A large number of Christians live counter to that teaching.

Live counter to that?

We just covered this... there is a huge difference between choosing to live continually in sin, and sinning and repenting. I assume you understand that.

So when you say "they live counter to that"... how?

The question isn't do people sin. All people sin.

The question is, do they repent or not?

Additionally, Divorce is a tricky type of sin, because there are people who would never divorce, but had a spouse that would not accept it.

We had this in my parents church. The woman simply refused to compromise on anything. In fact, we tried to give counseling, while the husband was begging to keep the marriage, as he really loved this woman. Nevertheless, she refused to talk to the church leadership, and we told her that until she repented, that she was not welcome at the church anymore.

He kept showing up there (she brought him to our church, but before was not a regular attendee), he did so to see if there was any way to repair the marriage, even after she divorced him.

So he is divorced.

But can you say he was living contrary to Biblical teaching? No. He never wanted a divorce. He fought as best he knew how to prevent it, and even to make it right after being divorced.

Further, can you say the church lived counter to Christianity? No. The church worked to prevent the divorce. They operated as best they could, to help repair the marriage. And when the woman refuse to submit to the authority of the church, they kicked her out as a non-believer, exactly as the Bible describes.

Lastly, let's talk about the woman herself. Our church no longer considers her a Christian. (this was some years ago now) So there are two possibilities. Either she is unrepentant, and thus is not a Christian.... or she is repentant and is.

We don't know where her heart is on this today. If she repents, then G-d is kind and just, to forgive sins of the repentant heart.

So she is either not a Christian, and living contrary to the Bible. Or she is living according to the Bible and is a Christian.

Thus, I disagree with your assessment that Christians live contrary to the Bible.

Now there are people who claims to be Christian, but are not.

Again, I just quoted you the passage.....

Many will say to me on that day, 'Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name and in your name drive out demons and in your name perform many miracles?'

Then I will tell them plainly, 'I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers!' -Jesus​

What is the whole point of that passage? That people are going to say "I'm a Christian!" and yet do not live or follow the teachings of Christ.

When you see someone who lives crazy, and says "I'm a Christian"... what you are seeing is not that Christians don't follow the teachings of Christ... it's simply that you are seeing some who is not a Christian, but pretends to be.

An example I heard years ago... Sitting in a pew does not make you a Christian, anymore than sitting in your garage makes you a Mercedes.

I'll give you a simple example...... The Bible says that Christians are too pray for the peace of Israel, and that G-d will curse those who curse the Jews, and bless those that bless the Jews.

So every time you see someone who claims to be a Christian, and see them saying hateful things about Jews..... they are not Christians.

According to the Bible they are committing adultery if they remarry.

Whosoever putteth away his wife, and marrieth another, committeth adultery: and whosoever marrieth her that is put away from her husband committeth adultery.”

Luke 16:18

It doesn't stop being adultery because you say "sorry".

Right, and I agree with that. It says you committed adultery. Yes. You did. But does that mean that you must divorce again, which is another sin? Does sinning twice, somehow cancel each other out?

And what if the other person has already remarried? Then what?

The Bible even says, that because of sexual sin, each person should have their own husband and wife.

But since sexual immorality is occurring, each man should have sexual relations with his own wife, and each woman with her own husband.
1 Cor 7:2
​

Telling someone to stay single because of a divorce years ago, means that now they would be tempted into immorality. And we've seen this by the way, even in the church. Where a pastor says he'll just stay single, and then years later you find he's screwing someone from the church. Why? Because he tried to stay single, and was tempted into immorality.

So I am not of the opinion, that if you sin, and you end up marrying some girl who was divorced, that this means you are now required to sin yet again, by divorcing again. That just makes no sense to me.

Now ideally you should not marry a woman who divorced her husband without cause. I agree with that. On that point, your post is accurate and true.

But I do not believe in the catch 22 version of Christian, where you are damned to hell if you don't, and damned to hell if you do.

Doesn't mean you can go marry women who divorced without cause. But it also doesn't mean that those who have committed sin, are now doomed to hell no matter if they repent or not. I reject that ideology.