Planned Parenthood Exposed - New Undercover Video

[Silence]

watch out you two...you're very close to making a dog pile

 

[catzmeow]

watch out you two...you're very close to making a dog pile

I can't help it if other people are so obviously in error that everyone notices.

 

[Ravi]

you asked when you would feel differently, I gave you my opinion when that change in attitude would occur. You didn't like the answer so you've tried to turn it around on me like I said something so completely outlandish and out of touch with reality that you find it offensive on it's very face.

I don't know, perhaps you won't change your mind when you have kids. Perhaps you'll be that parent who lets their 4 year old stay up until all hours of the night and eat cake and ice cream morning noon and night because it's their choice and you're all about fostering their independence. Perhaps you'll be that parent who lets her 13 or 14 year old daughter date a guy who is 19 or 20 and let him spend the night because after all she's old enough to decide if she wants to have sex.

and that's okay. I'm sure there will be a friend of your child's out there with a mother who will set boundaries and limitations for your child and you'll be left wondering why your kid is always at her friend's house and not home since she has so much freedom at home.

Kids WANT and NEED boundaries. If they have no boundaries they have no boundaries to test and figure out what is acceptable and what isn't acceptable. Society has rules and it's the parents first job to teach kids about those rules and the way they do that is by governing their behavior and actions while they are still too young to deal with the consequences of the choices they make.

Except that one way or another a pregnant teen is going to have to deal with the choice she made even if she is not allowed to decide about an abortion or a birth.

 

[Silence]

Except that one way or another a pregnant teen is going to have to deal with the choice she made even if she is not allowed to decide about an abortion or a birth.

then the teen in question shouldn't be having sex. See how it circles back around to that one teeny tiny itty bitty fact?

 

[catzmeow]

Except that one way or another a pregnant teen is going to have to deal with the choice she made even if she is not allowed to decide about an abortion or a birth.

And, so is her parent(s).

 

[Amanda]

you asked when you would feel differently,

I did?

 

[Ravi]

then the teen in question shouldn't be having sex. See how it circles back around to that one teeny tiny itty bitty fact?

Well, duh. If you ever discover a surefire way of keeping teens from having sex let me know.

 

[Ravi]

And, so is her parent(s).

For five years.

 

[catzmeow]

For five years.

Please. Parenting doesn't work like that. If my child has a child, and that grandbaby is being abused or neglected, or isn't being raised properly, most grandparents still feel a responsibility to step in.

That's why we keep saying that those who haven't had children don't truly understand the sense of duty that parents have towards their children.

 

[Ravi]

Please. Parenting doesn't work like that. If my child has a child, and that grandbaby is being abused or neglected, or isn't being raised properly, most grandparents still feel a responsibility to step in.

That's why we keep saying that those who haven't had children don't truly understand the sense of duty that parents have towards their children.

Whatever you say, Kitty. After the five years, it would be a choice of the grandparents to stay involved or not, not a requirement...therefore it doesn't affect the grandparent's lives in quite the same manner IF they are making the decision for their daughter's forced abortion or forced birth.

 

[Silence]

I did?

you did.

page 21

So when does it become a gift that's appreciated? It just seems like an attempt to control from where I'm sitting.

and I said when you have children of your own your prespective on how you felt as a teenager and/or young adult would change.

 

[Silence]

For five years.

my sister is still dealing with her 25 year old son and his choices to have a baby before he was emotionally or financially ready... she can either let him fail as a parent and watch her grandaughter suffer or she can step up and help out him and his girlfriend...which do you think as a parent she does?

 

[catzmeow]

my sister is still dealing with her 25 year old son and his choices to have a baby before he was emotionally or financially ready... she can either let him fail as a parent and watch her grandaughter suffer or she can step up and help out him and his girlfriend...which do you think as a parent she does?

Well, if you're Ravi, you just turn your back and let them suffer the consequences. After all, an 18 year old is an ADULT.

 

[Silence]

Well, if you're Ravi, you just turn your back and let them suffer the consequences. After all, an 18 year old is an ADULT.

and to Amanda 14 is an adult

 

[Agnapostate]

and to Amanda 14 is an adult

And to science, apparently.

I am curious as to why you did not respond to post #342, especially since you have not abandoned your condescending remarks.

I would say that even non-parents have at least a conceptual awareness of what it's like to be a parent, if not a personal perspective, just as one does not need to personally be hit by a car to know that being hit by a car would cause injury.

 

[Ravi]

my sister is still dealing with her 25 year old son and his choices to have a baby before he was emotionally or financially ready... she can either let him fail as a parent and watch her grandaughter suffer or she can step up and help out him and his girlfriend...which do you think as a parent she does?

Sounds to me like she is going to treat him like a baby forever.

 

[Silence]

My point was that because of the physical vigor of the young, they are able to resist both initial infection and the deleterious symptoms of full blown AIDS to a greater extent than those not possessing such qualities.

fair enough and I suppose true on some levels, however they are also not as mature as older HIV infected people and therefore might not take their medications as diligently and might not take as many precautions to protect future partners they may have.

I would say that I regard biological adults, (meaning those who have experienced menarche or spermarche), under the age of 30 or 35 as young adults. I see hindrances placed upon them in the form of age restrictions, such as the voting age, the drinking age, the driving age, the working age, the age at which one can opt to leave school, etc.

I'm sorry, are you actually saying that any female who has achieved menstration is an adult? do you realize that there are EIGHT YEAR OLDS who get their period these days? I guess you adhere to the "if she's old enough to bleed she's old enough to breed" mantra....

Babies are physically incapable of having babies, so your reference is to young women. Regarding your point about life expectancy, I would again ask if you would be in favor of extending the age of majority to 30 should the average human lifespan be extended to 150 through scientific advancements.

the age of majority has always been 18. It's the magic number and always has been as far as I know so no, I wouldn't advocate raising the age to 30 were science to figure out a way to sustain life until 150 years old.

I would then point out that my argument is not a dogmatic opposite of your own. You simply claim that young adolescents should not have children at all, but I do not claim that older adults should not have children, despite the fact that physical conditions similar to the one you mentioned can afflict older mothers. I claim that because of the widely varying circumstances and experiences of the mass array of individuals that constitute humanity, no set standard or age restriction for childbearing will suffice.

well I also don't think women in their 50 and 60s should be having babies either because the changes of them living to see their children grow up are vastly reduced not to mention the chances of their children having serious medical complications are greatly increased. so you see, I'm not prejudice just again 12, 13, 14 and 15 year olds.... I also don't think middle aged women should be having children either.... thankfully, most have gone through menopause by that point and can have sex all they want and only have to worry about diseases....

Next, your claim that "babies should not be having babies" seems directly opposite to the prospect of permitting adolescents to obtain abortions, since it seems as though that is what would directly prevent them from having babies. But I digress.

sorry you're arguments are both ridiculous and short sighted. I did not say I don't approve of adolescents obtaining abortions...I said I don't approve of them doing so without a guardian there to assist them should complications arise from the procedure.

I think it likely that you will refer to the "economic circumstances" of teenage parenthood, which is itself a somewhat overhyped phenomenon. A sociological analysis of Hotz et al. is most prominently characterized by a quotation from the study.

economics is only one aspect of the equation but it's a statistical fact that young single mothers are at far greater risk for living in poverty than women who choose to have babies later in life, even if they remain single. I'm a single mother...I choose to be a single mother...I do quite well for myself and am able to take care of my daughter without financial assistance from the government or her biological father (although he does send her spending money and gifts).

Regardless, to the extent that adolescent women are incapable of providing for their children, (and again, this trend appears to be more closely related with poverty than with age), it is due to their economic disenfranchisement through child labor and compulsory schooling laws, and would be reversed were those restrictions not present.

so not only do you advocate for children to be able to have sex and bear children you also advocate for them to be able to work 40 hour work weeks. I dare ask, when do they go to school? or are you satisfied with return to generations of uneducated manual laborers who are unable to read and write but who are forced into the menial jobs such as house cleaning, farm workers, etc? Education is the most effective way out of poverty as proven time and again by those who have risen above their circumstances and become successful after striving to earn a higher education.

I have posted studies indicating that young adolescents possess the capacity to offer informed consent to medical treatment. Is there any rational criticism of these studies that you are prepared to offer? I think the perspective you mention is true for wider society, not just adolescents. In fact, I'd say that due to sociobiological realities combined with an anti-sex culture, there is a heavy male/female divide when it comes to such activities, since females are more biologically prone to conceptualize sexual contact as romantic and emotional, and males more biologically prone to conceptualize it as physical. It's related to the evolutionary reality that males were intended to "spread their seed" as far and wide as possible, and females were intended to be choosy about sex partners so as to select one who could defend them during nine months of pregnancy and a later period of nursing. But there is also an element in our culture, (which we can be grateful to Christianity for), that influences another view of sexual contact as immoral if outside of marital relations, and that impacts societal perspectives of sex negatively.

informed consent isn't what I'm discussing. I don't think a young person should have to make that decision ALONE. They should have the support of a guardian, be it a parent or trusted adult figure.

I don't see that you have much direct evidence that adolescents are unwilling to obtain employment; I regard them as being unable to do so because they are afflicted by direct state enfranchisement in the form of child labor and compulsory schooling laws, coupled with the fact that they do not possess the legal rights to sign contracts or own property. In fact, I covered these issues in the long post I made earlier in this thread.

again I come back to the question of education. Do you have ANY clue how hard school is these days for children? my daughter has no less than 3 to 4 hours of homework a night and she's only in 7th grade. Do you think she could hold down a job AND get a good education? hell I can't even go back to college and hold down a job because there just aren't enough hours in the day...add in the fact that I have a child and forget it.

If you consider biologically (and mentally, as evidenced by the studies that I provided) adolescents to be "children," there is little I can do to help you.

and if you think that just because biologically speaking a child's body is ready to procreate and therefore they should be allowed to there is little help I can offer you because by your own words there is nothing wrong with child molestation as long as the child in question has achieved biological adulthood.

I don't regard there as being any fixed age at which individuals can be assumed to be competent, which is why I oppose specific age restrictions, due to their arbitrariness.

so do you also think that children 12, 13 or 14 should be charged as adults if they commit a crime and be sent to adult prisons? age restrictions are in place to PROTECT these children, not only from themselves but from predatory adults who would take advantage of them if given the opportunity.

Some may regard "childhood" as a gift. Some may not. The critical element here is that, again, you take a zealously dogmatic view of childhood, while I take a more fluid one. It may help to conceptualize childhood as a walled and gated garden. Some may enjoy the tranquility of the garden, and have no desire to leave there. But others may regard it as a desolate prison, and yearn to escape. Claiming that all persons are in one group or another is foolish.

so it's zealously dogmatic to say that children 12, 13, 14 and 15 aren't adult enough to have sex and therefore aren't adult enough to make their own medical decisions without guidance?

My childhood was a prison...I was stuck in a hell hole of abuse. If you or anyone else sees having a loving, caring, nuturing parent to guide you as a prison then you're totally fucked in the head and that's all I'll say on that subject.

I have already addressed the issue of emotional ramifications by noting that for a large part, they are social constructs. You really haven't provided any evidence to the contrary, to be honest.

they aren't social constructs, they are NATURAL constructs. what you're claiming is that people feel the way they do because society TELLS them too rather than them feeling what they do in spite of what society tells them. If that is the case how do young teens fall in love, when society constantly tells them they can't possibly know what love is? If they are so controlled by society they would just accept that they won't know what love is until they are older. I happen to believe that teens can fall in love and that it's just as real as any kind of love an adult would feel but that love is fragile because they themselves are fragile and prone to emotional swings which make the prospect of entering into adult style relationship precarious at best.

Again, sex can be compared to a drug in that its nature as fluid. Some drug users may use drugs merely for recreational purposes, while others will use them for religious purposes, as part of a sacred ritual. Similarly, some may see sex as casual, while others will attach the deeply emotional element that you attach to it. But to declare it to be one or the other and nothing else is unacceptably dogmatic.

drugs are illegal...you can't compare one with the other but nice try. and perhaps you should read what I've said....clearly you are missing where I'm speaking specifically about children 15 and younger...

More than that, I regard your remarks toward Amanda as being condescending, patronizing, and offensive. I do not deny that the majority of parents are not malevolent, dictatorial entities seeking to oppress their children. On the contrary, most parents obviously have good intentions and only wish the best for their children. But some of the worst acts in human history were committed with good intentions, and it is my belief that most parents unwittingly treat their offspring with a lack of dignity and respect. But asserting that Amanda would come to accept her parents' treatment of her is a baseless assumption tied to a crude stereotype. Perhaps you forgave your parents for what you once perceived as foul treatment. And perhaps most others did. But to assume that Amanda would, and that her perspective is merely clouded by her age, is an unjust stereotype. If I asserted that you merely viewed sexual contact as deeply emotional merely by virtue of being female, since females conceptualize sexual contact as being emotional and romantic, while males conceptualize it in physical terms, this would be a similarly unjust stereotype.

foul treatment? Amanda herself has admitted that she is/was rather close to her mother outside of the fact that she was off apparently fucking every guy who got his dick hard for her.

You know, part of the problem with society today is that parents DON'T restrict their children. These kids have TOO MUCH freedom and not enough common fucking sense to keep themselves out of trouble. This hands off approach to parenting hasn't really worked out too well if you watch the news or have any kind of prolonged contact with the youth of today. Go into any school and you'll see what I mean. There is a total disregard for authority which has infected our youth.

You have to give respect to get respect and you have to earn your place in this world.... you and apparently a few others think it's automatic and it's just not.

 

[Silence]

Sounds to me like she is going to treat him like a baby forever.

sounds to me like you'll make a shitty grandmother

 

[Angel Heart]

You must spread some Reputation around before giving it to Silence again.

You put it better than I ever could.

 

[Silence]

thank you Angel Heart. I'm totally surprised that I'm even having to defend this position that children should not be having sex and/or babies. It's crazy