Planned Parenthood Exposed - New Undercover Video

[Ravi]

sounds to me like you'll make a shitty grandmother

That's always possible. But then again, at least my kids will be able to take care of themselves.

 

[catzmeow]

That's always possible. But then again, at least my kids will be able to take care of themselves.

Spoken like a person with no children.

 

[Ravi]

Spoken like a person with no children.

lol, actually I have two. And no one on this thread is saying kids SHOULD have sex...but they do anyway. My point is that parents shouldn't be forcing their kids to have abortions or to give birth. None of what any of you has said has made me reconsider that position.

 

[Agnapostate]

fair enough and I suppose true on some levels, however they are also not as mature as older HIV infected people and therefore might not take their medications as diligently and might not take as many precautions to protect future partners they may have.

I don't see that you have any factual basis or evidence with which to support this claim. You seem to be relying solely on some form of anecdotal evidence, and have ignored the studies that I posted regarding

I'm sorry, are you actually saying that any female who has achieved menstration is an adult? do you realize that there are EIGHT YEAR OLDS who get their period these days? I guess you adhere to the "if she's old enough to bleed she's old enough to breed" mantra....

There are few eight year olds who have achieved menarche, although some have. The average age of menarche is about 12.5. And again, reproductive freedom is just that...reproductive freedom. Rather than force a dogmatic view of the reproduction of the nature of the one that you hold, I encourage individuals to make their own choices regarding their own reproductive activities.

the age of majority has always been 18. It's the magic number and always has been as far as I know so no, I wouldn't advocate raising the age to 30 were science to figure out a way to sustain life until 150 years old.

That is a factually inaccurate claim. The age of majority has NOT always been 18, is lower in numerous other countries, and the vast majority of restrictions placed on those between the ages of 12 and 18 did not exist until about 50 years ago. More than that, adolescence itself did not exist until the culmination of the Industrial Revolution.

well I also don't think women in their 50 and 60s should be having babies either because the changes of them living to see their children grow up are vastly reduced not to mention the chances of their children having serious medical complications are greatly increased. so you see, I'm not prejudice just again 12, 13, 14 and 15 year olds.... I also don't think middle aged women should be having children either.... thankfully, most have gone through menopause by that point and can have sex all they want and only have to worry about diseases....

All right. But the physical aspect doesn't necessarily exist for mid-to-late adolescents, and the physical detriments that would exist to adolescent childbearing in early adolescence are easily overcome by modern medical technology.

sorry you're arguments are both ridiculous and short sighted. I did not say I don't approve of adolescents obtaining abortions...I said I don't approve of them doing so without a guardian there to assist them should complications arise from the procedure.

I am in no way biased against assistance, but I do not regard coerced notification and consent as being "assistance." I am also curious as to what assistance you believe that parents could provide in the event of complications arising from the procedure that medical professionals could not.

economics is only one aspect of the equation but it's a statistical fact that young single mothers are at far greater risk for living in poverty than women who choose to have babies later in life, even if they remain single. I'm a single mother...I choose to be a single mother...I do quite well for myself and am able to take care of my daughter without financial assistance from the government or her biological father (although he does send her spending money and gifts).

The issue of economics encompasses the "statistical fact" that young single mothers are at greater risk for living in poverty than those women who choose to have babies later in life. That being said, that "statistical fact" is untrue. As a matter of fact, that alleged statistic was directly contradicted by Hotz et al., so I'm unsure why you would respond to something with the claim that had just been directly rebutted.

Our results suggest that much of the “concern” that has been registered regarding teenage childbearing is misplaced, at least based on its consequences for the subsequent educational and economic attainment of teen mothers. In particular, our estimates imply that the “poor” outcomes attained by such women cannot be attributed, in a causal sense, primarily to their decision to begin their childbearing at an early age. Rather, it appears that these outcomes are more the result of social and economic circumstances than they are the result of the early childbearing of these women. Furthermore, our estimates suggest that simply delaying their childbearing would not greatly enhance their educational attainment or subsequent earnings or affect their family structure… For most outcomes, the adverse consequences of early childbearing are short-lived. For annual hours of work and earnings, we find that a teen mother would have lower levels of each at older ages if they had delayed their childbearing (emphasis mine).

Why would you repeat a claim that was rebutted?

so not only do you advocate for children to be able to have sex and bear children you also advocate for them to be able to work 40 hour work weeks. I dare ask, when do they go to school? or are you satisfied with return to generations of uneducated manual laborers who are unable to read and write but who are forced into the menial jobs such as house cleaning, farm workers, etc? Education is the most effective way out of poverty as proven time and again by those who have risen above their circumstances and become successful after striving to earn a higher education.

The modern American schooling system does not provide education; it provides indoctrination. Its compulsory and coercive nature does not foster legitimate forms of education, which is why I also advocate that changes be made in that area, so that schools may adopt a more democratic nature in the vein of A.S. Neill's Summerhill School.

informed consent isn't what I'm discussing. I don't think a young person should have to make that decision ALONE. They should have the support of a guardian, be it a parent or trusted adult figure.

I don't believe anyone's denied that it might be helpful for a person of any age to have the support of friends and family in making a life-altering decision of this nature. The primary objection is simply that if this "support" is coercive, it ceases to function as support.

again I come back to the question of education. Do you have ANY clue how hard school is these days for children? my daughter has no less than 3 to 4 hours of homework a night and she's only in 7th grade. Do you think she could hold down a job AND get a good education? hell I can't even go back to college and hold down a job because there just aren't enough hours in the day...add in the fact that I have a child and forget it.

I think she could get a perfectly good education, and the primary detriment to that is the fact that she's in school. Education is not best provided through a compulsory system of sitting in a classroom reading textbooks all day; it is best provided through outside experiences, through a wide spectrum of activities. Moreover, I have little regard for the value of homework, and I might also note that it is discriminatory against those of lower socioeconomic classes because they do not possess the same resources outside of school that those of upper classes posses.

Are you familiar with the Bengali poet Rabindranath Tagore?

and if you think that just because biologically speaking a child's body is ready to procreate and therefore they should be allowed to there is little help I can offer you because by your own words there is nothing wrong with child molestation as long as the child in question has achieved biological adulthood.

This is a direct oxymoron. No "child" has achieved biological adulthood. You are contradicted on the physical aspect. In addition, the studies I posted directly affirmed the fact that young adolescents are capable of making informed, rational decisions about the future. I would venture to say that you are also contradicted on the aspect of mental maturity, unless you have countering studies of equivalent or superior merit.

so do you also think that children 12, 13 or 14 should be charged as adults if they commit a crime and be sent to adult prisons?

Yes, and as a matter of fact, they often are. This is an unjust double standard of assigning adult criminal responsibilities to this minority group but not coupling those responsibilities with equivalent adult rights. I would reverse this injustice by assigning both "adult" rights and responsibilities to those capable of handling them.

age restrictions are in place to PROTECT these children, not only from themselves but from predatory adults who would take advantage of them if given the opportunity.

I never denied that the intent of age restrictions is to "protect" children, merely that that was not the consequence usually achieved.

so it's zealously dogmatic to say that children 12, 13, 14 and 15 aren't adult enough to have sex and therefore aren't adult enough to make their own medical decisions without guidance?

It's zealously dogmatic to claim that childhood as it is usually understood is always a gift rather than a prison. It can be either.

My childhood was a prison...I was stuck in a hell hole of abuse. If you or anyone else sees having a loving, caring, nuturing parent to guide you as a prison then you're totally fucked in the head and that's all I'll say on that subject.

Hierarchical and authoritarian social relationships imposed without the consent of all parties involved are in no way loving, caring, or "nuturing." (Nurturing.) Hierarchical relationships may be a necessary evil in the case of rather young children, but there is little value in their establishment for adolescents.

they aren't social constructs, they are NATURAL constructs. what you're claiming is that people feel the way they do because society TELLS them too rather than them feeling what they do in spite of what society tells them. If that is the case how do young teens fall in love, when society constantly tells them they can't possibly know what love is? If they are so controlled by society they would just accept that they won't know what love is until they are older. I happen to believe that teens can fall in love and that it's just as real as any kind of love an adult would feel but that love is fragile because they themselves are fragile and prone to emotional swings which make the prospect of entering into adult style relationship precarious at best.

There is a degree of sociobiological naturalness in males' and females' respective treatment of sexual interactions, but the high regard for adolescent virginity promoted in our society is a social construct, as is much of the "emotional component" of sexual interactions hyped in Western society. It is a construct that largely did not exist in smaller societies that have now been wiped out, such as Samoa, for instance. Casual sexual interactions were commonplace in Samoa, even among adolescents of some classes. It is not a completely universal component of sexual activity.

drugs are illegal...you can't compare one with the other but nice try. and perhaps you should read what I've said....clearly you are missing where I'm speaking specifically about children 15 and younger...

That is the most blatant red herring I have ever encountered. It was incredibly obvious that I was not referring to the legal status of drugs, but to their varying effects among a wide spectrum of people. The same is true for sexual relations. You may indeed be referring to "children" 15 and younger, but you have failed to establish how that is relevant, especially considering that I have rebutted your claims of mental immaturity among that age group.

foul treatment? Amanda herself has admitted that she is/was rather close to her mother outside of the fact that she was off apparently fucking every guy who got his dick hard for her.

You'll have to ask her about aspects of her personal life if she chooses to divulge them to you, not me. But I am referring to your condescending and patronizing remarks, which reinforce an ignorant stereotype.

You know, part of the problem with society today is that parents DON'T restrict their children. These kids have TOO MUCH freedom and not enough common fucking sense to keep themselves out of trouble. This hands off approach to parenting hasn't really worked out too well if you watch the news or have any kind of prolonged contact with the youth of today. Go into any school and you'll see what I mean. There is a total disregard for authority which has infected our youth.

I could only wish that a total disregard for hierarchical authority existed in schools. Sadly, I have found that this is not the case. The claim that youth have too much freedom is blatantly absurd, considering that they do not possess the rights to vote, drink, work, leave school, sign contracts and own property, access every type of media available to legal adults, etc., despite often possessing the mental capacities to responsibly exercise the use of those rights, as I have demonstrated through the citations of the studies that you have still not responded to. The news is one of the most inaccurate and biased forms of commentary on youth behavior in existence, so I would not rely on it to a very great degree if I were you. Regardless, what specific behaviors are modern youth engaging in that is particularly troubling to you?

You have to give respect to get respect and you have to earn your place in this world.... you and apparently a few others think it's automatic and it's just not.

I would certainly not claim that respect was or is automatic, given that it ought to be earned through recognition of meritorious acts and behaviors rather than the number of days a person has been on this earth.

 

[Agnapostate]

Spoken like a person with no children.

Spoken like a person with little more than ad hominem attacks.

 

[Agnapostate]

thank you Angel Heart. I'm totally surprised that I'm even having to defend this position that children should not be having sex and/or babies. It's crazy

Children are physically incapable of having babies, so I would wonder how you would even find yourself in such a discussion.

 

[Silence]

Children are physically incapable of having babies, so I would wonder how you would even find yourself in such a discussion.

clearly your definition of a child and mine are vastly different. you think that because someone has biologically become able to bear children they are no longer children, I disagree, especially considering I have a friend whose own daughter began having her period at 9 years old and she was in the THIRD GRADE!

sorry but you're a fucking LUNATIC if you think that merely reaching the physical biological ability to make a baby makes someone an adult.

 

[catzmeow]

clearly your definition of a child and mine are vastly different. you think that because someone has biologically become able to bear children they are no longer children, I disagree, especially considering I have a friend whose own daughter began having her period at 9 years old and she was in the THIRD GRADE!

sorry but you're a fucking LUNATIC if you think that merely reaching the physical biological ability to make a baby makes someone an adult.

Enjoying Agnapostate's unique take on the world, eh?

 

[Amanda]

clearly your definition of a child and mine are vastly different. you think that because someone has biologically become able to bear children they are no longer children, I disagree, especially considering I have a friend whose own daughter began having her period at 9 years old and she was in the THIRD GRADE!

sorry but you're a fucking LUNATIC if you think that merely reaching the physical biological ability to make a baby makes someone an adult.

I don't exactly agree that being capable of reproduction makes one an adult, but to not deal with the reality of it doesn't work either as we see by looking around at all the teen pregnancy and STDs.

The thing I've been trying to say, and failing at, is that kids are dealing with 2 opposing forces: what their parents & society want and what their bodies are telling them. To act like enforcing societies norms is the answer isn't practical. Clearly it doesn't work, so isn't a new way of looking at it in order?

Seriously, I appreciate the parental perspective, probably better than you guys realize, but I can see it's not working too. I'd really like to move past the "because I say so" reasoning and talk in practical terms about what you think would help.

 

[Angel Heart]

Children are physically incapable of having babies, so I would wonder how you would even find yourself in such a discussion.

Oh I wouldn't say that:

http://youngest_mother.tripod.com/

Peruvian five-year-old Lina Medina, accompanied by her 11-month-old-son Gerardo, and Doctor Lozada who attended her son's birth, are shown in this 1940 file photo taken in Lima's hospital.

When her child was born by Caesarean section in May 1939, Medina made medical history, and is still the youngest known mother in the world.

Lina Medina's parents thought their 5-year-old daughter had a huge abdominal tumor and when shamans in their remote village in Peru's Andes could find no cure, her father carried her to a hospital.

Just over a month later, she gave birth to a boy.

 

[Valerie]

A 13 year old is old enough to decide for herself if she wants an abortion and if she wants her parents to know. Children are not private property.

Read my post again. I do not think anyone should be able to force anyone to bear a child to term. Nor do I think anyone should force an abortion procedure upon anyone. That's not what I said.

Ultimately, there are two standards to go by under such circumstances.
Legal obligations and moral obligations. I could go on and on, but my opinion has already been expressed here by me and a few others.

Ladies, I think we ALL agree that the best interest of the child is paramount. Sometimes the expression of our own personal perspectives only serve to cloud the underlying dilemma. It is an extremely complex issue and we should not beat each other up over it! Generally speaking, I would like to see women be more supportive of each other, but I'll get off my soap box now!

Wouldn't the fact that a minor child got pregnant demonstrate that the parents were not being good caretakers of the child to warrant such control over her?

Anguille, to answer your question (again), no I do not think that having a minor child who becomes pregnant patently disqualifies parents from their rights and responsibilities. The reality is that it can happen to ANY parent.

If the past medical and social history of the pregnant minor child is unknown, there is a both a legal AND moral obligation that is in the best interest of the child, to inform the parents or adult guardian. It would only be justified in extreme circumstances of physical or sexual abuse to exclude a parent from their legal right to be informed that their daughter is pregnant.

 

[Silence]

Oh I wouldn't say that:

http://youngest_mother.tripod.com/

did they ever question how this 5 year old got pregnant?

 

[Luissa]

did they ever question how this 5 year old got pregnant?

I betting on it being the her father's baby or an uncle.

 

[Silence]

I betting on it being the her father's baby or an uncle.

that is disgusting but sadly probably true.

The thing I've been trying to say, and failing at, is that kids are dealing with 2 opposing forces: what their parents & society want and what their bodies are telling them. To act like enforcing societies norms is the answer isn't practical. Clearly it doesn't work, so isn't a new way of looking at it in order?

I think I'm about to sound condescending again Something you learn as you get older is impulse control. You learn that just cuz you want to and just cuz it might feel good doesn't mean you should do it. Hell I have the urge to run into people on my way home from work sometimes....I don't because it's not in my best interest to do so.

 

[Angel Heart]

did they ever question how this 5 year old got pregnant?

Bit more behind the story:

snopes.com: Youngest Mother

Her father was arrested for it but let go after no evidence was found of incest.

 

[Angel Heart]

that is disgusting but sadly probably true.



I think I'm about to sound condescending again Something you learn as you get older is impulse control. You learn that just cuz you want to and just cuz it might feel good doesn't mean you should do it. Hell I have the urge to run into people on my way home from work sometimes....I don't because it's not in my best interest to do so.

 

[Silence]

Bit more behind the story:

snopes.com: Youngest Mother

Her father was arrested for it but let go after no evidence was found of incest.

yeah back then they couldn't do DNA tests to see who the baby belonged too.

 

[Agnapostate]

I'm familiar with the Lina Medina case, and the simple fact of the matter is that she was not a biological child.

did they ever question how this 5 year old got pregnant?

She still refuses to say, I hear.

 

[Agnapostate]

clearly your definition of a child and mine are vastly different. you think that because someone has biologically become able to bear children they are no longer children, I disagree, especially considering I have a friend whose own daughter began having her period at 9 years old and she was in the THIRD GRADE!

sorry but you're a fucking LUNATIC if you think that merely reaching the physical biological ability to make a baby makes someone an adult.

That is an insufficient response.

Enjoying Agnapostate's unique take on the world, eh?

Enjoying the lack of a sufficient response, eh? It's like you've found a twin.

 

[eots]

Spoken like a person with little more than ad hominem attacks.

translation that is correct ..I have no children