[POLL] - Liberals, how much is a "fair share?" - Taxes

[PMZ]

Liberals' view of the world is based on envy and ignorance about economic realities.

They see someone with wealth or high income, and rather than looking closely to see how it came about (usually through a combination of talent, hard work, and taking intelligent risks), they assume that the wealth is either obtained through some sort of theft or "good fortune."

Consider even the word, "fortunate." When talking about the wealthy or high earners, they frequently use the word "fortunate," PRESUMING that the wealth was the product of some sort of luck. The very idea that it might have resulted from intelligence, hard work, or shrewd risk-taking doesn't even cross a Liberal's mind. Is it "luck" that drives a person to get an MBA or a law degree or a doctorate? Is it LUCK that causes an executive's car to be in the employee's parking lot on Sunday or at 9pm, while the rest of the lot is empty? Are business owners just LUCKY to be working 80 hours a week?

And look at the same word when applied to the other end of the spectrum. Liberals are constantly referring to people with low incomes and minimal assets as "unfortunate." Maybe that is the case, but it is also very possible that a person is "poor" because he is unwilling to DO THE THINGS THAT RESULT IN HIGHER INCOMES OR THE ACCUMULATION OF WEALTH. How difficult is it to get a college degree these days (from a community college and/or state U)? How difficult is it to work hard, come to work on time, seek out opportunities for more responsibility, or even START YOUR OWN BUSINESS?

Who is keeping them from it?

How hard is it to defer having children until you are MARRIED and can AFFORD TO NURTURE THEM PROPERLY? Not too fucking hard, actually. How many of the "poor" are not "unfortunate" at all, but are some combination of stupid, lazy, and criminally self-destructive?

Government - even competent, efficient government, assuming there is such a thing - is expensive and must be paid for by taxes and fees. EVERYONE should be paying federal taxes, not just half the population. But anything more than 1/4 of earned income is theft.

And by the way, I haven't read through all these pages but it would be good to note that when the MARGINAL top income tax rate was over 70% in the 70's and 80's, there was also an umbrella provision that limited the actual taxes to 50% of AGI. Nobody paid 75% of their income to the Federal Government.

Of course your rant is what you'd like to true as you cannot provide any evidence to support that it is. You're a victim of propaganda which almost always is based on, why you should be angry, and who to blame it on.

So the talking head told you what liberals are like. Of course he also did not supply an evidence, but because you were angry at the situation that he described to you, you didn't care.

Sucker play, but you have lots of company. Lots of people who go the no evidence route.

BTW there isn't a single American who wouldn't agree that everyone should be employed and paying taxes. But business has a lot to do creating new high paying jobs before it will happen.

The part of your post that I agree with is that there are many reasons why any particular person might be poor or rich. All the way from completely good or bad fortune to fully earned. However the consequences are comfort for the rich and pain for the poor. So who's more motivated?

I tend to ignore both extremes as outliers and concentrate on the huge majority middle class. The workers who create the country's wealth. The parents who raise the next generation. Those with average luck and average skills. Those with balanced lives.

They are America and they are being taken advantage of by both sets of outliers.

 

[PMZ]

Tell us specifically what you don't understand about what I wrote. I'll explain it to you.

What's funny is that I've read Marx, I understand Marx, I even respect Marx.

And you, who flaccidly spews Marxist rhetoric, have not read, much less understood, that which you advocate.

Idiot.

What does that have to do with me explaining what I wrote?

 

[Gadawg73]

How do you know?

Because I have never been stopped from working, getting a better paying job, or increasing my net worth.

Have you? And if so by whom?

You're probably another conservative who believes that there's no job shortage. Unemployment is imaginary. For every job business gave away they created another one.

Or more probably, the higher unemployment is, the cheaper workers are. You can pay them starvation wages then complain about wealth redistribution to keep them from starving.

Or perhaps one born from and to parents who cared to educate you and demonstrated work ethic and (while it's not obvious here) gave you a mind and body with no handicaps that has stayed healthy through life so far.

One difference between conservatives and liberals besides whining is that liberals are grateful and conservatives are entitled to everything that they got from others.

Jobs are never created, they are demanded through consumers. The more you take from all consumers in the free market in taxes be they rich or middle class the less demand there is and the fewer jobs there are.

 

[Spiderman]

How do you know?

Because I have never been stopped from working, getting a better paying job, or increasing my net worth.

Have you? And if so by whom?

You're probably another conservative who believes that there's no job shortage. Unemployment is imaginary. For every job business gave away they created another one.

If no one has a job to offer you then find another way to make money. This might come as a surprise to you but you do not have to work for someone else.

Or more probably, the higher unemployment is, the cheaper workers are. You can pay them starvation wages then complain about wealth redistribution to keep them from starving.

I have no employees. Never needed them. And if the economy and your circumstances are such that one job won't pay your bills then work 2 jobs. Where is it written that one 40 hour a week job is all one needs?

Or perhaps one born from and to parents who cared to educate you and demonstrated work ethic and (while it's not obvious here) gave you a mind and body with no handicaps that has stayed healthy through life so far.

Already told you my parents were killed when I was 10. I have been supporting myself since I was 15 quit HS at 17 because there was nothing there for me and college seemed to be a waste of time and money to me. I learned early that if you want to be financially secure that one full time job was not enough. I put in my hours when I was young and could burn the candle at both ends. 100 hour work weeks were no stranger to me. Now I am completely free to do whatever i want and my income will continue for as long as I want it to.

Nothing is stopping anyone from doing what I did. Nothing but the choice not to do it.

One difference between conservatives and liberals besides whining is that liberals are grateful and conservatives are entitled to everything that they got from others.

Entitled: are you fucking kidding me?

I don't think I am entitled to anything. Nothing. You on the other hand think people are entitled to live on other peoples' money.

 

[PMZ]

As usual, you are almost completely wrong.

If a CIA agent doing his work stops a terrorist from blowing up a building, has he added value?

An air traffic controller safely guides 1000 flights to safe arrivals and departure. Any value in that?

A CSC Dr isolates a new deadly virus and has a supply of vaccine ready when the contagion hits America. Valuable?

The FBI investigates Bernie Madoff and the result is the biggest parasite of our times goes to prison and much of his 'profits' get returned to his victims.

I can go on all day proving you wrong.

Moving the goal posts I see...

You claimed that government workers create wealth.

If a CIA agent doing his work stops a terrorist from blowing up a building, has he CREATED WEALTH?

Uh, no..

On one hand, we have a standing valuable building filled with valuable equipment and living, skilled people who produce.

On the other we have a mass grave.

This certainly isn't rocket science.

 

[PMZ]

What does that have to do with anything I said?

Crawl back to DailyKOS, retard.

You are defeated.

Posts like yours define the nature of conservatism.

 

[Uncensored2008]

On one hand, we have a standing valuable building filled with valuable equipment and living, skilled people who produce.

On the other we have a mass grave.

This certainly isn't rocket science.

No it isn't, yet you remain far too stupid to grasp it.

Again, you're just a troll.

 

[Spiderman]

How do you know?

Because I have never been stopped from working, getting a better paying job, or increasing my net worth.

Have you? And if so by whom?

Do you REALLY think that IF you go from 12 bucks an hour to 15 bucks an hour, that the 3 dollar "increase" puts you on a par with those that woke up this morning with 50 MILLION in the bank and are looking at making another 20,000 dollars before noon.

That's not the question I asked is it?

So why don't you answer the question I asked?

You really think you can do that (have 50 million dollars and make 20k a day)?

If you really believe that you can do that, why don't cha?

I make more than 20K a month and I started by working minimum wage jobs. I just worked 2 or three at a time.

I already know what you will say; BECAUSE I DON'T WANT TO. I AM SO HAPPY WITH MY 15 DOLLARS AN HOUR I DON'T NEED NO STINKIN 50 MILLION IN THE BANK. BUT I COULD IF I WANTED TO. AIN'T NOBODY STOPPIN ME BUT ME.

LMAO.

I wouldn't be happy with $15 an hour but unlike you I would actually do something about it rather than complain that some rich guy is keeping me down because he doesn't pay enough taxes.

 

[Spiderman]

Conservatives believe that one must choose between a hammer and a screwdriver and make their choice at the hammer store getting their advice from a hammer salesman on commission.

That's funny coming from a dupe who labels everyone as conservative or liberal.

 

[Procrustes Stretched]

Voters: 81. You have already voted on this poll?



Liars! How many rightwing sock puppets showed up to vote and disappeared?

81 members voted?

 

[PMZ]

Because I have never been stopped from working, getting a better paying job, or increasing my net worth.

Have you? And if so by whom?

You're probably another conservative who believes that there's no job shortage. Unemployment is imaginary. For every job business gave away they created another one.

Or more probably, the higher unemployment is, the cheaper workers are. You can pay them starvation wages then complain about wealth redistribution to keep them from starving.

Or perhaps one born from and to parents who cared to educate you and demonstrated work ethic and (while it's not obvious here) gave you a mind and body with no handicaps that has stayed healthy through life so far.

One difference between conservatives and liberals besides whining is that liberals are grateful and conservatives are entitled to everything that they got from others.

Jobs are never created, they are demanded through consumers. The more you take from all consumers in the free market in taxes be they rich or middle class the less demand there is and the fewer jobs there are.

I've never seen a customer demand a product that hasn't been created yet.

Jobs are created by growth. Either business or government. When a combination of business and government has grown to the size of a well paying job for 100% of the workers, the economy and country are as prosperous as they can be.

Growth comes from both government and businesses providing desirable goods and services to satisfied customers. Both government and business offer their goods and services at the lowest possible cost by continuously reducing process variability. Companies optimize competitive markets and governments otherwise. In a democracy performance is maintained by the electorate rewarding those who demonstrate it with continued employment. Same with business except who decides.

I swear this is all 8th grade stuff. I always assumed that most Americans are educated beyond the, 8th grade.

What happened?

 

[PMZ]

Because I have never been stopped from working, getting a better paying job, or increasing my net worth.

Have you? And if so by whom?

You're probably another conservative who believes that there's no job shortage. Unemployment is imaginary. For every job business gave away they created another one.

If no one has a job to offer you then find another way to make money. This might come as a surprise to you but you do not have to work for someone else.



I have no employees. Never needed them. And if the economy and your circumstances are such that one job won't pay your bills then work 2 jobs. Where is it written that one 40 hour a week job is all one needs?

Or perhaps one born from and to parents who cared to educate you and demonstrated work ethic and (while it's not obvious here) gave you a mind and body with no handicaps that has stayed healthy through life so far.

Already told you my parents were killed when I was 10. I have been supporting myself since I was 15 quit HS at 17 because there was nothing there for me and college seemed to be a waste of time and money to me. I learned early that if you want to be financially secure that one full time job was not enough. I put in my hours when I was young and could burn the candle at both ends. 100 hour work weeks were no stranger to me. Now I am completely free to do whatever i want and my income will continue for as long as I want it to.

Nothing is stopping anyone from doing what I did. Nothing but the choice not to do it.

One difference between conservatives and liberals besides whining is that liberals are grateful and conservatives are entitled to everything that they got from others.

Entitled: are you fucking kidding me?

I don't think I am entitled to anything. Nothing. You on the other hand think people are entitled to live on other peoples' money.

Why do you think that working hard is exceptional?

Why do you think bring uneducated is exceptional?

''Nothing is stopping anyone from doing what I did. Nothing but the choice not to do it.''

Zero evidence that this is true unless you assume that everyone is as or more capable than you.

Your parents raised you until they died and someone after. Do you want us to believe that nobody ever taught you a thing? I'm interested because you would be the first person that I've ever met to claim that.

 

[PMZ]

On one hand, we have a standing valuable building filled with valuable equipment and living, skilled people who produce.

On the other we have a mass grave.

This certainly isn't rocket science.

No it isn't, yet you remain far too stupid to grasp it.

Again, you're just a troll.

Again you are a valuable representative of conservatism.

Valuable to liberals.

 

[DGS49]

One wonders whether the PMZ person is a troll or just stupid.

"Zero evidence" that people can still accumulate great wealth through individual hard work?

That really says it all. He has nothing worth responding to. He is a fool.

 

[Spiderman]

You're probably another conservative who believes that there's no job shortage. Unemployment is imaginary. For every job business gave away they created another one.

If no one has a job to offer you then find another way to make money. This might come as a surprise to you but you do not have to work for someone else.



I have no employees. Never needed them. And if the economy and your circumstances are such that one job won't pay your bills then work 2 jobs. Where is it written that one 40 hour a week job is all one needs?



Already told you my parents were killed when I was 10. I have been supporting myself since I was 15 quit HS at 17 because there was nothing there for me and college seemed to be a waste of time and money to me. I learned early that if you want to be financially secure that one full time job was not enough. I put in my hours when I was young and could burn the candle at both ends. 100 hour work weeks were no stranger to me. Now I am completely free to do whatever i want and my income will continue for as long as I want it to.

Nothing is stopping anyone from doing what I did. Nothing but the choice not to do it.

One difference between conservatives and liberals besides whining is that liberals are grateful and conservatives are entitled to everything that they got from others.

Entitled: are you fucking kidding me?

I don't think I am entitled to anything. Nothing. You on the other hand think people are entitled to live on other peoples' money.

Why do you think that working hard is exceptional?

Why do you think bring uneducated is exceptional?

Where did I ever say that? there is nothing extraordinary about me. I'm just a guy like any other.

''Nothing is stopping anyone from doing what I did. Nothing but the choice not to do it.''

Zero evidence that this is true unless you assume that everyone is as or more capable than you.

Anyone of average intelligence and able bodied is as capable as I am. Did I wrongly assume we were talking about able bodied people of average intelligence ?

If you were talking about the physically or mentally handicapped you should have said so.

Your parents raised you until they died and someone after. Do you want us to believe that nobody ever taught you a thing? I'm interested because you would be the first person that I've ever met to claim that.

I can barely remember anything from when I was 10 but I'm sure you can list all the life lessons your parents taught you by age 10 right?.

And the only thing I learned in foster care was to shut up and keep my head down. Oh I also learned how to sneak in and out of the house so I could work without my foster parents or the social workers knowing about it.

 

[Foxfyre]

You're probably another conservative who believes that there's no job shortage. Unemployment is imaginary. For every job business gave away they created another one.

Or more probably, the higher unemployment is, the cheaper workers are. You can pay them starvation wages then complain about wealth redistribution to keep them from starving.

Or perhaps one born from and to parents who cared to educate you and demonstrated work ethic and (while it's not obvious here) gave you a mind and body with no handicaps that has stayed healthy through life so far.

One difference between conservatives and liberals besides whining is that liberals are grateful and conservatives are entitled to everything that they got from others.

Jobs are never created, they are demanded through consumers. The more you take from all consumers in the free market in taxes be they rich or middle class the less demand there is and the fewer jobs there are.

I've never seen a customer demand a product that hasn't been created yet.

Jobs are created by growth. Either business or government. When a combination of business and government has grown to the size of a well paying job for 100% of the workers, the economy and country are as prosperous as they can be.

Growth comes from both government and businesses providing desirable goods and services to satisfied customers. Both government and business offer their goods and services at the lowest possible cost by continuously reducing process variability. Companies optimize competitive markets and governments otherwise. In a democracy performance is maintained by the electorate rewarding those who demonstrate it with continued employment. Same with business except who decides.

I swear this is all 8th grade stuff. I always assumed that most Americans are educated beyond the, 8th grade.

What happened?

I'm not surprised you have never seen a customer demand a product that hasn't been produced yet, because that is not how it works.

Eli Whitney observed the tedious process of removing seeds from freshly picked cotton by hand and how people kept trying to find a more efficient way to do that. He saw a need or desire, and he figured out a device that would fill it.

Somebody else saw the tedious methods of cutting and threshing wheat by hand and invented a machine that could harvest a field in an hour that once required days of intense manual labor.

Somebody saw a need and figured out to invent a machine that could spin wool into yarn, and somebody else figured out how to build a loom that could weave that yarn into usable cloth, and somebody else figured out how to operate a loom as a machine. Somebody else replaced tedious hand stitching with a machine that could do it much more efficiently and faster than what could be done by hand.

For years in the agency I headed, I was frustrated at how quickly the enclosed exit lights would burn out and need to be replaced. And we invariably had one exit light that wasn't working during safety inspections when I wanted a perfect score. So a salesman shows up with a new cooler burning bulb guaranteed to last for up to a 100 times longer than the bulbs we were using. He had no problem making a sale.

How many times have any of us wished we had a tool that would be more efficient in doing a particular task, and voila!! One day there it was. Somebody saw the need and had filled it.

Each new innovation can take away some jobs that are no longer needed, but new jobs are created to replace them. As the buggy manufacturers were closing down in the wake of those new fangled automobiles, a whole new industry was springing up to manufacture parts and provide fuel, maintenance, and fancy accessories.

And government was not involved in any of this in any way. Good government accommodates private sector innovations and follows economic development with necessary shared serfvices. Except in very rare circumstances--the space program would be one exception--it does not create private sector innovations or create wealth efficiently.

 

[PMZ]

One wonders whether the PMZ person is a troll or just stupid.

"Zero evidence" that people can still accumulate great wealth through individual hard work?

That really says it all. He has nothing worth responding to. He is a fool.

There is evidence of that. Also evidence that people can accumulate great wealth through pure luck.

Did you think that I disbelieved that there are people with great wealth in the world and this country?

I read about them all of the time in the news and see them every day. Sad lives, many of them.

 

[PMZ]

Jobs are never created, they are demanded through consumers. The more you take from all consumers in the free market in taxes be they rich or middle class the less demand there is and the fewer jobs there are.

I've never seen a customer demand a product that hasn't been created yet.

Jobs are created by growth. Either business or government. When a combination of business and government has grown to the size of a well paying job for 100% of the workers, the economy and country are as prosperous as they can be.

Growth comes from both government and businesses providing desirable goods and services to satisfied customers. Both government and business offer their goods and services at the lowest possible cost by continuously reducing process variability. Companies optimize competitive markets and governments otherwise. In a democracy performance is maintained by the electorate rewarding those who demonstrate it with continued employment. Same with business except who decides.

I swear this is all 8th grade stuff. I always assumed that most Americans are educated beyond the, 8th grade.

What happened?

I'm not surprised you have never seen a customer demand a product that hasn't been produced yet, because that is not how it works.

Eli Whitney observed the tedious process of removing seeds from freshly picked cotton by hand and how people kept trying to find a more efficient way to do that. He saw a need or desire, and he figured out a device that would fill it.

Somebody else saw the tedious methods of cutting and threshing wheat by hand and invented a machine that could harvest a field in an hour that once required days of intense manual labor.

Somebody saw a need and figured out to invent a machine that could spin wool into yarn, and somebody else figured out how to build a loom that could weave that yarn into usable cloth, and somebody else figured out how to operate a loom as a machine. Somebody else replaced tedious hand stitching with a machine that could do it much more efficiently and faster than what could be done by hand.

For years in the agency I headed, I was frustrated at how quickly the enclosed exit lights would burn out and need to be replaced. And we invariably had one exit light that wasn't working during safety inspections when I wanted a perfect score. So a salesman shows up with a new cooler burning bulb guaranteed to last for up to a 100 times longer than the bulbs we were using. He had no problem making a sale.

How many times have any of us wished we had a tool that would be more efficient in doing a particular task, and voila!! One day there it was. Somebody saw the need and had filled it.

Each new innovation can take away some jobs that are no longer needed, but new jobs are created to replace them. As the buggy manufacturers were closing down in the wake of those new fangled automobiles, a whole new industry was springing up to manufacture parts and provide fuel, maintenance, and fancy accessories.

And government was not involved in any of this in any way. Good government accommodates private sector innovations and follows economic development. It does not create it efficiently.

I made my living inventing ways to make manufacturing better. So I really don't need your lecture. Maybe others do.

I could copy you, and lecture the good things that government has done too. Like keep us free. But, first, I believe you know that stuff, and second, I'm sure that you'll deny it because of your agenda.

The evidence that at the present time business is failing us in this country is ample and reliable. But because business hires advertising to blame government, and that succeeds with people like you, many are not able to hold them accountable for their poor performance.

I'm free of that influence so I am perfectly willing to call a spade a spade. And try to free others from propaganda as I can.

 

[zeke]

You're probably another conservative who believes that there's no job shortage. Unemployment is imaginary. For every job business gave away they created another one.

Or more probably, the higher unemployment is, the cheaper workers are. You can pay them starvation wages then complain about wealth redistribution to keep them from starving.

Or perhaps one born from and to parents who cared to educate you and demonstrated work ethic and (while it's not obvious here) gave you a mind and body with no handicaps that has stayed healthy through life so far.

One difference between conservatives and liberals besides whining is that liberals are grateful and conservatives are entitled to everything that they got from others.

Jobs are never created, they are demanded through consumers. The more you take from all consumers in the free market in taxes be they rich or middle class the less demand there is and the fewer jobs there are.

I've never seen a customer demand a product that hasn't been created yet.

Jobs are created by growth. Either business or government. When a combination of business and government has grown to the size of a well paying job for 100% of the workers, the economy and country are as prosperous as they can be.

Growth comes from both government and businesses providing desirable goods and services to satisfied customers. Both government and business offer their goods and services at the lowest possible cost by continuously reducing process variability. Companies optimize competitive markets and governments otherwise. In a democracy performance is maintained by the electorate rewarding those who demonstrate it with continued employment. Same with business except who decides.

I swear this is all 8th grade stuff. I always assumed that most Americans are educated beyond the, 8th grade.

What happened?

i know you were studying hard in school. They covered this part when you were out sick I bet.

But anyway. Jobs are created by demand. Growth occurs as a result of the increased demand.

I know, you were out sick that day.

 

[BlackSand]

No. I think that I'm on par with all others. Regardless of anything.

Well wonderful ... Since you are on par with all others, regardless of anything ... Then I guess you don't have anything to complain about.

.