[POLL] - Liberals, how much is a "fair share?" - Taxes

[Spiderman]

I

Because wealth distribution in the US is extreme enough now to be dysfunctional. Making it more, rather than less so, with our tax system, would increase the dysfunction.

So called wealth inequality is meaningless to the average person.

Anyone, even you, can increase their wealth anytime they want.

The reality is they don't want to.

The conservative lie. If you fall for it you're a sucker.

If you don't believe it then you've never been poor.

 

[Spiderman]

Who decides who earns it?

Typically, it's the wealthy. You think that's what they already have almost all of it?

No so called wealthy guy ever stopped me from earning money.

How do you know?

Because I have never been stopped from working, getting a better paying job, or increasing my net worth.

Have you? And if so by whom?

 

[Peterf]

As usual, you are almost completely wrong.

If a CIA agent doing his work stops a terrorist from blowing up a building, has he added value?

An air traffic controller safely guides 1000 flights to safe arrivals and departure. Any value in that?

A CSC Dr isolates a new deadly virus and has a supply of vaccine ready when the contagion hits America. Valuable?

The FBI investigates Bernie Madoff and the result is the biggest parasite of our times goes to prison and much of his 'profits' get returned to his victims.

I can go on all day proving you wrong.

What you have shown is that some state employees sometimes add value. Nothing wrong with that even though you have carefully selected examples that support your case, ignoring that vast army of bureaucrats who add no value whatsoever but simply get in the way of those who actually produce.

But even among your examples it may be that the state is wasting resources. It is possible that air traffic control could be carried out by a private company more efficiently and at lower cost.

The need to make a profit is a powerful drive towards efficiency. Relying on ever more money from taxpayers is not.

There are many bureaucrats who don't add much value. Some work for government, some for private enterprise.

Private enterprise is a fine system with competition. Would you contract work to a single supplier? If so, you're just plain stupid.

No competition, make more money regardless of the cost to others, just doesn't work. Why are conservatives oblivious to that simple fact? Give me a noncompetitive contract. I'll show you profit.

I entirely agree. In those rare cases where it really is impossible to inject competition into an essential service it must be run by the state or some other public authority. This is not socialism but realism.

 

[Cecilie1200]

What you have shown is that some state employees sometimes add value. Nothing wrong with that even though you have carefully selected examples that support your case, ignoring that vast army of bureaucrats who add no value whatsoever but simply get in the way of those who actually produce.

But even among your examples it may be that the state is wasting resources. It is possible that air traffic control could be carried out by a private company more efficiently and at lower cost.

The need to make a profit is a powerful drive towards efficiency. Relying on ever more money from taxpayers is not.

There are many bureaucrats who don't add much value. Some work for government, some for private enterprise.

Private enterprise is a fine system with competition. Would you contract work to a single supplier? If so, you're just plain stupid.

No competition, make more money regardless of the cost to others, just doesn't work. Why are conservatives oblivious to that simple fact? Give me a noncompetitive contract. I'll show you profit.

I entirely agree. In those rare cases where it really is impossible to inject competition into an essential service it must be run by the state or some other public authority. This is not socialism but realism.

This is a variation of the ever-popular leftist "all or nothing" argument: if you don't think socialism is splendiferous, you MUST want anarchy and no government whatsoever. It is simply impossible for leftist minds to scrape up enough brain cells to comprehend the subtlety of "some VERY LIMITED government to handle VERY FEW tasks".

 

[PMZ]

No so called wealthy guy ever stopped me from earning money.

How do you know?

Because I have never been stopped from working, getting a better paying job, or increasing my net worth.

Have you? And if so by whom?

You're probably another conservative who believes that there's no job shortage. Unemployment is imaginary. For every job business gave away they created another one.

Or more probably, the higher unemployment is, the cheaper workers are. You can pay them starvation wages then complain about wealth redistribution to keep them from starving.

Or perhaps one born from and to parents who cared to educate you and demonstrated work ethic and (while it's not obvious here) gave you a mind and body with no handicaps that has stayed healthy through life so far.

One difference between conservatives and liberals besides whining is that liberals are grateful and conservatives are entitled to everything that they got from others.

 

[PMZ]

There are many bureaucrats who don't add much value. Some work for government, some for private enterprise.

Private enterprise is a fine system with competition. Would you contract work to a single supplier? If so, you're just plain stupid.

No competition, make more money regardless of the cost to others, just doesn't work. Why are conservatives oblivious to that simple fact? Give me a noncompetitive contract. I'll show you profit.

I entirely agree. In those rare cases where it really is impossible to inject competition into an essential service it must be run by the state or some other public authority. This is not socialism but realism.

This is a variation of the ever-popular leftist "all or nothing" argument: if you don't think socialism is splendiferous, you MUST want anarchy and no government whatsoever. It is simply impossible for leftist minds to scrape up enough brain cells to comprehend the subtlety of "some VERY LIMITED government to handle VERY FEW tasks".

The difference between conservatives and liberals is evidence. Conservatives believe what they're told. Liberals get evidence.

 

[zeke]

No so called wealthy guy ever stopped me from earning money.

How do you know?

Because I have never been stopped from working, getting a better paying job, or increasing my net worth.

Have you? And if so by whom?

Do you REALLY think that IF you go from 12 bucks an hour to 15 bucks an hour, that the 3 dollar "increase" puts you on a par with those that woke up this morning with 50 MILLION in the bank and are looking at making another 20,000 dollars before noon.

You really think you can do that (have 50 million dollars and make 20k a day)?

If you really believe that you can do that, why don't cha?

I already know what you will say; BECAUSE I DON'T WANT TO. I AM SO HAPPY WITH MY 15 DOLLARS AN HOUR I DON'T NEED NO STINKIN 50 MILLION IN THE BANK. BUT I COULD IF I WANTED TO. AIN'T NOBODY STOPPIN ME BUT ME.

LMAO.

 

[PMZ]

Conservatives believe that one must choose between a hammer and a screwdriver and make their choice at the hammer store getting their advice from a hammer salesman on commission.

 

[kaz]

You don't think CEOs looting companies costs you?

Compared to politicians looting the treasury, it's a pittance.

And you propose to make it worse. Any power you give politicians will just give them the leverage to loot the company instead of the "CEO."

They will also bring down and attack CEOs who are not looting the company.

And the problem would be solved by itself anyway as the companies that have bad CEOs will go bankrupt and be replaced by companies who's CEO's act in their interest.

Just be honest, you don't give a crap about the CEO or the company, it's just the chance for a government power grab to you.

Evidence man, not what you wish was true.

Um...

 

[BlackSand]

Back in the 1950s, when the top marginal tax rate was more than 90 percent, real annual growth averaged more than 4 percent. During the last eight years, when the top marginal rate was just 35 percent, real growth was less than half that. Altogether, in years when the top marginal rate was lower than 39.6 percent — the top rate during the 1990s — annual real growth averaged 2.1 percent. In years when the rate was 39.6 percent or higher, real growth averaged 3.8 percent. The pattern is the same regardless of threshold. Take 50 percent, for example. Growth in years when the tax rate was less than 50 percent averaged 2.7 percent. In years with tax rates at or more than 50 percent, growth was 3.7 percent.

So what you are basically saying is that the top earners are more equipped to fund the government and likewise grow the economy?

This relies on the ability to understand that if you can ever become successful enough to be in the top earnings group ... Then you have to take responsibility for all those who hate your guts and will never pay their fair share of anything.
Grow a company and produce earnings ... And Progressive Liberals in government will make you grow the overall economy as well ... Because you can do it better than they can, or ever will.

The rich have to grow the economy because it is the only way they can make any money when taxes are oppressive ... And Progressive Liberals act like taxing the rich is a positive solution.
No matter how much money they want to tax the rich ... It will never make Progressive Liberals better money managers or successful in any way.

At a 90% tax rate on earnings ...

If the rich want $50 and they earn more than most people overall ... They have to earn $500 to get to keep $50 they earned ... You better believe that it will lead them to figuring out how to do it.

It is a crying shame the rest of the people cannot do the same in an honest and forthright manner.

.

 

[BlackSand]

How do you know?

Because I have never been stopped from working, getting a better paying job, or increasing my net worth.

Have you? And if so by whom?

Do you REALLY think that IF you go from 12 bucks an hour to 15 bucks an hour, that the 3 dollar "increase" puts you on a par with those that woke up this morning with 50 MILLION in the bank and are looking at making another 20,000 dollars before noon.

You really think you can do that (have 50 million dollars and make 20k a day)?

If you really believe that you can do that, why don't cha?

I already know what you will say; BECAUSE I DON'T WANT TO. I AM SO HAPPY WITH MY 15 DOLLARS AN HOUR I DON'T NEED NO STINKIN 50 MILLION IN THE BANK. BUT I COULD IF I WANTED TO. AIN'T NOBODY STOPPIN ME BUT ME.

LMAO.

Do you REALLY think that stealing the 50 million through taxation on the rich man makes you par with him?

.

 

[PMZ]

Because I have never been stopped from working, getting a better paying job, or increasing my net worth.

Have you? And if so by whom?

Do you REALLY think that IF you go from 12 bucks an hour to 15 bucks an hour, that the 3 dollar "increase" puts you on a par with those that woke up this morning with 50 MILLION in the bank and are looking at making another 20,000 dollars before noon.

You really think you can do that (have 50 million dollars and make 20k a day)?

If you really believe that you can do that, why don't cha?

I already know what you will say; BECAUSE I DON'T WANT TO. I AM SO HAPPY WITH MY 15 DOLLARS AN HOUR I DON'T NEED NO STINKIN 50 MILLION IN THE BANK. BUT I COULD IF I WANTED TO. AIN'T NOBODY STOPPIN ME BUT ME.

LMAO.

Do you REALLY think that stealing the 50 million through taxation on the rich man makes you par with him?

.

No. I think that I'm on par with all others. Regardless of anything.

 

[DGS49]

Liberals' view of the world is based on envy and ignorance about economic realities.

They see someone with wealth or high income, and rather than looking closely to see how it came about (usually through a combination of talent, hard work, and taking intelligent risks), they assume that the wealth is either obtained through some sort of theft or "good fortune."

Consider even the word, "fortunate." When talking about the wealthy or high earners, they frequently use the word "fortunate," PRESUMING that the wealth was the product of some sort of luck. The very idea that it might have resulted from intelligence, hard work, or shrewd risk-taking doesn't even cross a Liberal's mind. Is it "luck" that drives a person to get an MBA or a law degree or a doctorate? Is it LUCK that causes an executive's car to be in the employee's parking lot on Sunday or at 9pm, while the rest of the lot is empty? Are business owners just LUCKY to be working 80 hours a week?

And look at the same word when applied to the other end of the spectrum. Liberals are constantly referring to people with low incomes and minimal assets as "unfortunate." Maybe that is the case, but it is also very possible that a person is "poor" because he is unwilling to DO THE THINGS THAT RESULT IN HIGHER INCOMES OR THE ACCUMULATION OF WEALTH. How difficult is it to get a college degree these days (from a community college and/or state U)? How difficult is it to work hard, come to work on time, seek out opportunities for more responsibility, or even START YOUR OWN BUSINESS?

Who is keeping them from it?

How hard is it to defer having children until you are MARRIED and can AFFORD TO NURTURE THEM PROPERLY? Not too fucking hard, actually. How many of the "poor" are not "unfortunate" at all, but are some combination of stupid, lazy, and criminally self-destructive?

Government - even competent, efficient government, assuming there is such a thing - is expensive and must be paid for by taxes and fees. EVERYONE should be paying federal taxes, not just half the population. But anything more than 1/4 of earned income is theft.

And by the way, I haven't read through all these pages but it would be good to note that when the MARGINAL top income tax rate was over 70% in the 70's and 80's, there was also an umbrella provision that limited the actual taxes to 50% of AGI. Nobody paid 75% of their income to the Federal Government.

 

[Uncensored2008]

Tell us specifically what you don't understand about what I wrote. I'll explain it to you.

What's funny is that I've read Marx, I understand Marx, I even respect Marx.

And you, who flaccidly spews Marxist rhetoric, have not read, much less understood, that which you advocate.

Idiot.

 

[Uncensored2008]

If they started their company their compensation should, and does, come from stock value increase.

Their operating contribution is miniscule compared to their employees.

Yes, without the guiding wisdom of Miguel, the third shift janitor, Oracle would never have grown to what it is today!

Yer a right fucking genius, comrade.

 

[Uncensored2008]

You said something that implied that the wealth created by government workers does not 'count' the same as the wealth created by non government workers.

Government workers don't create wealth.

You have no grasp at all of markets.

I said ' What we all have to divide up is what we all produce. It doesn't matter who owns the means of producing it.

Yes, a statement so stupid that few Jr. High kids enamored with Marx would even mutter.

You are either a troll or are in fact mentally retarded.

Workers create wealth for all of us regardless if the are using means owned by some of us or all of us.' which is perfectly true.

DO NOT FEED TROLL.....

Look, you fucking moron, I can set you down for as many hours as you like and tell you to design a relational database with referential integrity.

We could wait 10,000 years and it will never happen. No amount of sweat or brute strength will create it. This was the major flaw in Marxist theory, the idea that people are cogs in a wheel, that one is just that same as any other. But a drooling dolt like you will never create anything - because creation is the act of the mind. Without Larry Elison, Oracle would never have existed, the thousands of employees would have never had jobs. Because it was his INTELLECT, along with Umang Gupta, who built Oracle.

You can dig a hole and fill it in for a million years, and though you are "working," you'll never create value.

If a worker makes a widget, that's a unit of tangible wealth. A widget made on means owned by all us, in other words government, is exactly the same unit of wealth as one produced via means owned by some of us, ie private enterprise.

And THAT is why the Yugo was a car that was every bit as valuable as a Mercedes Benz. Yer a right fucking genius.

 

[Uncensored2008]

As usual, you are almost completely wrong.

If a CIA agent doing his work stops a terrorist from blowing up a building, has he added value?

An air traffic controller safely guides 1000 flights to safe arrivals and departure. Any value in that?

A CSC Dr isolates a new deadly virus and has a supply of vaccine ready when the contagion hits America. Valuable?

The FBI investigates Bernie Madoff and the result is the biggest parasite of our times goes to prison and much of his 'profits' get returned to his victims.

I can go on all day proving you wrong.

Moving the goal posts I see...

You claimed that government workers create wealth.

If a CIA agent doing his work stops a terrorist from blowing up a building, has he CREATED WEALTH?

Uh, no..

 

[PMZ]

Liberals' view of the world is based on envy and ignorance about economic realities.

They see someone with wealth or high income, and rather than looking closely to see how it came about (usually through a combination of talent, hard work, and taking intelligent risks), they assume that the wealth is either obtained through some sort of theft or "good fortune."

Consider even the word, "fortunate." When talking about the wealthy or high earners, they frequently use the word "fortunate," PRESUMING that the wealth was the product of some sort of luck. The very idea that it might have resulted from intelligence, hard work, or shrewd risk-taking doesn't even cross a Liberal's mind. Is it "luck" that drives a person to get an MBA or a law degree or a doctorate? Is it LUCK that causes an executive's car to be in the employee's parking lot on Sunday or at 9pm, while the rest of the lot is empty? Are business owners just LUCKY to be working 80 hours a week?

And look at the same word when applied to the other end of the spectrum. Liberals are constantly referring to people with low incomes and minimal assets as "unfortunate." Maybe that is the case, but it is also very possible that a person is "poor" because he is unwilling to DO THE THINGS THAT RESULT IN HIGHER INCOMES OR THE ACCUMULATION OF WEALTH. How difficult is it to get a college degree these days (from a community college and/or state U)? How difficult is it to work hard, come to work on time, seek out opportunities for more responsibility, or even START YOUR OWN BUSINESS?

Who is keeping them from it?

How hard is it to defer having children until you are MARRIED and can AFFORD TO NURTURE THEM PROPERLY? Not too fucking hard, actually. How many of the "poor" are not "unfortunate" at all, but are some combination of stupid, lazy, and criminally self-destructive?

Government - even competent, efficient government, assuming there is such a thing - is expensive and must be paid for by taxes and fees. EVERYONE should be paying federal taxes, not just half the population. But anything more than 1/4 of earned income is theft.

And by the way, I haven't read through all these pages but it would be good to note that when the MARGINAL top income tax rate was over 70% in the 70's and 80's, there was also an umbrella provision that limited the actual taxes to 50% of AGI. Nobody paid 75% of their income to the Federal Government.

Of course your rant is what you'd like to true as you cannot provide any evidence to support that it is. You're a victim of propaganda which almost always is based on, why you should be angry, and who to blame it on.

So the talking head told you what liberals are like. Of course he also did not supply any evidence, but because you were angry at the situation that he described to you, you didn't care.

Sucker play, but you have lots of company. Lots of people who go the no evidence route.

BTW there isn't a single American who wouldn't agree that everyone should be employed and paying taxes. But business has a lot to do creating new high paying jobs before it will happen.

 

[PMZ]

You said something that implied that the wealth created by government workers does not 'count' the same as the wealth created by non government workers.

Government workers don't create wealth.

You have no grasp at all of markets.

I said ' What we all have to divide up is what we all produce. It doesn't matter who owns the means of producing it.

Yes, a statement so stupid that few Jr. High kids enamored with Marx would even mutter.

You are either a troll or are in fact mentally retarded.

Workers create wealth for all of us regardless if the are using means owned by some of us or all of us.' which is perfectly true.

DO NOT FEED TROLL.....

Look, you fucking moron, I can set you down for as many hours as you like and tell you to design a relational database with referential integrity.

We could wait 10,000 years and it will never happen. No amount of sweat or brute strength will create it. This was the major flaw in Marxist theory, the idea that people are cogs in a wheel, that one is just that same as any other. But a drooling dolt like you will never create anything - because creation is the act of the mind. Without Larry Elison, Oracle would never have existed, the thousands of employees would have never had jobs. Because it was his INTELLECT, along with Umang Gupta, who built Oracle.

You can dig a hole and fill it in for a million years, and though you are "working," you'll never create value.

If a worker makes a widget, that's a unit of tangible wealth. A widget made on means owned by all us, in other words government, is exactly the same unit of wealth as one produced via means owned by some of us, ie private enterprise.

And THAT is why the Yugo was a car that was every bit as valuable as a Mercedes Benz. Yer a right fucking genius.

What does that have to do with anything I said?

 

[Uncensored2008]

What does that have to do with anything I said?

Crawl back to DailyKOS, retard.

You are defeated.