Practicing religion without force

[AllieBaba]

Poor Passive Aggressive Sky.

 

[Sky Dancer]

Forced religion is compulsory religion. As a child I had no choice but to attend a Catholic school, pray everyday, go to confession and mass every week. I went to Catholic camp in the summer, and I lived in a Catholic Charities foster home.

How Catholicism was presented to me as a child was harmful. It's just the way I was raised and how the religion was misused to justify abuse. It's natural that I would choose another path when I was free to.

That in no way reflects on the entire Catholic Church or all Catholics.

Children have no choice in ANYTHING. Their whole lives are forced upon them. Religion is not the only force.

You are lucky to live in a society that ALLOWS you to choose what religion you want to follow. You are lucky to live in a society where you are not persecuted for your beliefs.

Obviously the force that was applied on you did not work and you chose for yourself when you had the opportunity to.

I am lucky to live in a country where religious freedom is possible. When I was an adult I was able to make choices about my path.

The force that was applied to me had lingering effects. When I first started to study Buddhism I was afraid to ask questions. I was NOT permitted to question church doctrine as a child.

You're right that some children have no choices. Other parents train their children to make decisions and to think for themselves.

 

[R.D.]

OK. Let's stay on topic. It's true that my ideas about Christianity come from my personal history of being a Catholic up until the age of 19. I also know about the Christians who are vocal in opposition to civil marriage equality for gays. AND I work with many Christians in my community and find them to be wonderful people.

In my experience, Christian beliefs were misused. Force was part of it. I had no choice as a child.

Buddhism really has helped me in so many ways. For one thing, it has no concept of sin, salvation, eternal hell or heaven. When my dad died, my Catholic roots were no help and I struggled until finding Buddhism.

I accept that I don't come across as universally peaceful about all topics. I am still working through a few things from my past, and with those I am vulnerable. Sometimes I am unable to access the inner resources I have.

The reason that 'religion without force' is an important topic to me is that because my background I sympathize with others who've not been encouraged to question church authority or to ask questions and challenge church doctrine.

I hope this helps.

sky

It doesn't help because now you are only recapping and insist it's everyones else not getting it. The reasons beneath the surface you refuse to address but it is loud and clear to everyone else.

Any abuse is wrong but force is not abuse necessarily. You won't allow yourself to get past whatever abuse you suffered was not about religion,Christianity or Catholicism
That is your crutch.

How is your misnterpretation of Christians being against gay marriage on topic?

 

[syrenn]

I'm not a Zen Buddhist. I'm a Tibetan Vajrayana Buddhist. Perhaps you are more familiar with Zen Buddhists who practice Hinayana. Their practices suppress emotions. Vajrayana allow the emotions to be present and we behave naturally, not in some kind of contrived way. My emotions are evident to all and not suppressed. We work differently with our minds and hearts in the Vajrayana.

My age is none of your business and is irrelevant to the topic of practicing religon without force.

You have some interesting ideas about Buddhists. You think we're not supposed to be human and have ordinary feelings like anyone else. That's a misconception. What we train to do in my lineage is to sit with feelings and allow them to dissolve on their own.

Clearly, I didn't do that when I publically announced that my feelings were hurt and I felt offended. What I missed an opportunity to do was just sit with it until it passed. In retrospect, I would do it differently now. I should have contacted Marie privately with my feelings so that all of you would be more at ease.

How it works for me is I set my aspirations each day for what I want to work on and then at the end of the day I evaluate how it went. I rejoice when I act skillfully and I regret and vow to do better when I act unskillfully.

Heavy duty punishment is a Christian concept, not a Buddhist one. We aren't punishing to ourselves for our humanness.

I'm open to hearing your view. Clearly, you all think I'm a terrible person and a very bad Buddhist.

I can live with that.

Clearly you are mistaken. I dont think anyone thinks you are a "terrible person."

I do think that everyone sees that you feel free to offend but do not want to be offended.

The bit about always haveing your feelings hurt and or offended.... doing the whole PM discussion about your feelings being hurt so the whole appology thing can happen....IS a very passive aggressive from of aggression. It is playing the continual victim and an attempt at behavior modification of others toward you.

I don't think it's true that NOBODY thinks I'm a terrible person. I had to put AllieBaba on ignore because her posts are soooo critical, and scathing toward me. I had to close my PM for awhile to keep her from sending me 'fuck off' messages.

It's true that I can make the mistake of generalizing her position to others who are simultaneously attacking my character.

I don't think telling someone you are hurt and offended by something they've said is 'playing the victim'. I do think it's perfectly fine for me to set limits with others, and I think it's fine when others do the same with me.

I would like to drop this line of inquiry about this Marie post and get back to the topic.

Are you interested?

sky

OK..lets ask her

Allie...do you think sky is a "terrible person"?



Critical, and scathing posts to you do NOT mean you are a terrible person. It means they question what your opinions are.

I am not talking about the marie post. I am basing my post on our interactions. Asking me if i was threating you was passive aggressive and playing a victim. Yes it is fine to set limits with people...however that does not mean they have to play by the limits you set.

Now.... the thing with your limits is in part what i was saying about you feeling free to dish..and not want to take it. If you set your limits for others....you have to PLAY by your limits.

 

[Momanohedhunter]

Forced religion is compulsory religion. As a child I had no choice but to attend a Catholic school, pray everyday, go to confession and mass every week. I went to Catholic camp in the summer, and I lived in a Catholic Charities foster home.

How Catholicism was presented to me as a child was harmful. It's just the way I was raised and how the religion was misused to justify abuse. It's natural that I would choose another path when I was free to.

That in no way reflects on the entire Catholic Church or all Catholics.

Children have no choice in ANYTHING. Their whole lives are forced upon them. Religion is not the only force.

You are lucky to live in a society that ALLOWS you to choose what religion you want to follow. You are lucky to live in a society where you are not persecuted for your beliefs.

Obviously the force that was applied on you did not work and you chose for yourself when you had the opportunity to.

I am lucky to live in a country where religious freedom is possible. When I was an adult I was able to make choices about my path.

The force that was applied to me had lingering effects. When I first started to study Buddhism I was afraid to ask questions. I was NOT permitted to question church doctrine as a child.

You're right that some children have no choices. Other parents train their children to make decisions and to think for themselves.

Thees guys questioned doctrine. I question doctrine and my churches by laws all the time.

Noun

* S: (n) Protestant (an adherent of Protestantism)
* S: (n) Protestant Church, Protestant (the Protestant churches and denominations collectively)

Adjective

* S: (adj) Protestant (of or relating to Protestants or Protestantism) "Protestant churches"; "a Protestant denomination"
* S: (adj) protestant (protesting)

 

[Sky Dancer]

OK. Let's stay on topic. It's true that my ideas about Christianity come from my personal history of being a Catholic up until the age of 19. I also know about the Christians who are vocal in opposition to civil marriage equality for gays. AND I work with many Christians in my community and find them to be wonderful people.

In my experience, Christian beliefs were misused. Force was part of it. I had no choice as a child.

Buddhism really has helped me in so many ways. For one thing, it has no concept of sin, salvation, eternal hell or heaven. When my dad died, my Catholic roots were no help and I struggled until finding Buddhism.

I accept that I don't come across as universally peaceful about all topics. I am still working through a few things from my past, and with those I am vulnerable. Sometimes I am unable to access the inner resources I have.

The reason that 'religion without force' is an important topic to me is that because my background I sympathize with others who've not been encouraged to question church authority or to ask questions and challenge church doctrine.

I hope this helps.

sky

It doesn't help because now you are only recapping and insist it's everyones else not getting it. The reasons beneath the surface you refuse to address but it is loud and clear to everyone else.

Any abuse is wrong but force is not abuse necessarily. You won't allow yourself to get past whatever abuse you suffered was not about religion,Christianity or Catholicism
That is your crutch.

How is your misnterpretation of Christians being against gay marriage on topic?

I am working on getting over my past. If your point is you don't want me to post until I have completely healed everything and no longer refer to it, I think that's an unreasonable request.

I'm not here to be analyzed by a bunch of strangers whose real names I don't even know. I have plenty of resources in my real life to help me work on my wounds.

Truth is, sometimes religion is inappropriately used and unnecessary force is applied. Example: the Magdalene homes in Ireland.

 

[Sky Dancer]

Children have no choice in ANYTHING. Their whole lives are forced upon them. Religion is not the only force.

You are lucky to live in a society that ALLOWS you to choose what religion you want to follow. You are lucky to live in a society where you are not persecuted for your beliefs.

Obviously the force that was applied on you did not work and you chose for yourself when you had the opportunity to.

I am lucky to live in a country where religious freedom is possible. When I was an adult I was able to make choices about my path.

The force that was applied to me had lingering effects. When I first started to study Buddhism I was afraid to ask questions. I was NOT permitted to question church doctrine as a child.

You're right that some children have no choices. Other parents train their children to make decisions and to think for themselves.

Thees guys questioned doctrine. I question doctrine and my churches by laws all the time.

Noun

* S: (n) Protestant (an adherent of Protestantism)
* S: (n) Protestant Church, Protestant (the Protestant churches and denominations collectively)

Adjective

* S: (adj) Protestant (of or relating to Protestants or Protestantism) "Protestant churches"; "a Protestant denomination"
* S: (adj) protestant (protesting)

Good for you.

 

[Momanohedhunter]

OK. Let's stay on topic. It's true that my ideas about Christianity come from my personal history of being a Catholic up until the age of 19. I also know about the Christians who are vocal in opposition to civil marriage equality for gays. AND I work with many Christians in my community and find them to be wonderful people.

In my experience, Christian beliefs were misused. Force was part of it. I had no choice as a child.

Buddhism really has helped me in so many ways. For one thing, it has no concept of sin, salvation, eternal hell or heaven. When my dad died, my Catholic roots were no help and I struggled until finding Buddhism.

I accept that I don't come across as universally peaceful about all topics. I am still working through a few things from my past, and with those I am vulnerable. Sometimes I am unable to access the inner resources I have.

The reason that 'religion without force' is an important topic to me is that because my background I sympathize with others who've not been encouraged to question church authority or to ask questions and challenge church doctrine.

I hope this helps.

sky

It doesn't help because now you are only recapping and insist it's everyones else not getting it. The reasons beneath the surface you refuse to address but it is loud and clear to everyone else.

Any abuse is wrong but force is not abuse necessarily. You won't allow yourself to get past whatever abuse you suffered was not about religion,Christianity or Catholicism
That is your crutch.

How is your misnterpretation of Christians being against gay marriage on topic?

I am working on getting over my past. If your point is you don't want me to post until I have completely healed everything and no longer refer to it, I think that's an unreasonable request.

I'm not here to be analyzed by a bunch of strangers whose real names I don't even know. I have plenty of resources in my real life to help me work on my wounds.

Truth is, sometimes religion is inappropriately used and unnecessary force is applied. Example: the Magdalene homes in Ireland.

Example- Africa Water Project - Integrity Worldwide International Christian Missions

 

[R.D.]

[

I am working on getting over my past. If your point is you don't want me to post until I have completely healed everything and no longer refer to it, I think that's an unreasonable request.

I'm not here to be analyzed by a bunch of strangers whose real names I don't even know. I have plenty of resources in my real life to help me work on my wounds.

Truth is, sometimes religion is inappropriately used and unnecessary force is applied. Example: the Magdalene homes in Ireland.

Holy Dali Lama batman - who said stop posting???

Honestly, do you even read these posts for content or just for key words so you can reply to only what makes you feel in control?


I know I know - that was mean. It was a fair question none the less.

 

[syrenn]

OK. Let's stay on topic. It's true that my ideas about Christianity come from my personal history of being a Catholic up until the age of 19. I also know about the Christians who are vocal in opposition to civil marriage equality for gays. AND I work with many Christians in my community and find them to be wonderful people.

In my experience, Christian beliefs were misused. Force was part of it. I had no choice as a child.

Buddhism really has helped me in so many ways. For one thing, it has no concept of sin, salvation, eternal hell or heaven. When my dad died, my Catholic roots were no help and I struggled until finding Buddhism.

I accept that I don't come across as universally peaceful about all topics. I am still working through a few things from my past, and with those I am vulnerable. Sometimes I am unable to access the inner resources I have.

The reason that 'religion without force' is an important topic to me is that because my background I sympathize with others who've not been encouraged to question church authority or to ask questions and challenge church doctrine.

I hope this helps.

sky

It doesn't help because now you are only recapping and insist it's everyones else not getting it. The reasons beneath the surface you refuse to address but it is loud and clear to everyone else.

Any abuse is wrong but force is not abuse necessarily. You won't allow yourself to get past whatever abuse you suffered was not about religion,Christianity or Catholicism
That is your crutch.

How is your misnterpretation of Christians being against gay marriage on topic?

I am working on getting over my past. If your point is you don't want me to post until I have completely healed everything and no longer refer to it, I think that's an unreasonable request.

I'm not here to be analyzed by a bunch of strangers whose real names I don't even know. I have plenty of resources in my real life to help me work on my wounds.

Truth is, sometimes religion is inappropriately used and unnecessary force is applied. Example: the Magdalene homes in Ireland.

Actually talking about your past is part of the healing process.


Again...you have issues with and around your grandmother. What year did all of that take place for her? It would give context.

 

[Sky Dancer]

Clearly you are mistaken. I dont think anyone thinks you are a "terrible person."

I do think that everyone sees that you feel free to offend but do not want to be offended.

The bit about always haveing your feelings hurt and or offended.... doing the whole PM discussion about your feelings being hurt so the whole appology thing can happen....IS a very passive aggressive from of aggression. It is playing the continual victim and an attempt at behavior modification of others toward you.

I don't think it's true that NOBODY thinks I'm a terrible person. I had to put AllieBaba on ignore because her posts are soooo critical, and scathing toward me. I had to close my PM for awhile to keep her from sending me 'fuck off' messages.

It's true that I can make the mistake of generalizing her position to others who are simultaneously attacking my character.

I don't think telling someone you are hurt and offended by something they've said is 'playing the victim'. I do think it's perfectly fine for me to set limits with others, and I think it's fine when others do the same with me.

I would like to drop this line of inquiry about this Marie post and get back to the topic.

Are you interested?

sky

OK..lets ask her

Allie...do you think sky is a "terrible person"?



Critical, and scathing posts to you do NOT mean you are a terrible person. It means they question what your opinions are.

I am not talking about the marie post. I am basing my post on our interactions. Asking me if i was threating you was passive aggressive and playing a victim. Yes it is fine to set limits with people...however that does not mean they have to play by the limits you set.

Now.... the thing with your limits is in part what i was saying about you feeling free to dish..and not want to take it. If you set your limits for others....you have to PLAY by your limits.

Let's get back to the topic please. I have already indicated that I welcome anyone to set limits with me and I will set limits with others.

I won't respond to name calling.

 

[Sky Dancer]

It doesn't help because now you are only recapping and insist it's everyones else not getting it. The reasons beneath the surface you refuse to address but it is loud and clear to everyone else.

Any abuse is wrong but force is not abuse necessarily. You won't allow yourself to get past whatever abuse you suffered was not about religion,Christianity or Catholicism
That is your crutch.

How is your misnterpretation of Christians being against gay marriage on topic?

I am working on getting over my past. If your point is you don't want me to post until I have completely healed everything and no longer refer to it, I think that's an unreasonable request.

I'm not here to be analyzed by a bunch of strangers whose real names I don't even know. I have plenty of resources in my real life to help me work on my wounds.

Truth is, sometimes religion is inappropriately used and unnecessary force is applied. Example: the Magdalene homes in Ireland.

Actually talking about your past is part of the healing process.


Again...you have issues with and around your grandmother. What year did all of that take place for her? It would give context.

I do not 'have issues' with my grandmother. I never knew her. I have issues with perpetrators of child abuse, domestic violence and religious abuse.

Just because someone is a nun, priest or Christian doesn't excuse bad behavior.

 

[AllieBaba]

I don't think it's true that NOBODY thinks I'm a terrible person. I had to put AllieBaba on ignore because her posts are soooo critical, and scathing toward me. I had to close my PM for awhile to keep her from sending me 'fuck off' messages.

It's true that I can make the mistake of generalizing her position to others who are simultaneously attacking my character.

I don't think telling someone you are hurt and offended by something they've said is 'playing the victim'. I do think it's perfectly fine for me to set limits with others, and I think it's fine when others do the same with me.

I would like to drop this line of inquiry about this Marie post and get back to the topic.

Are you interested?

sky

OK..lets ask her

Allie...do you think sky is a "terrible person"?



Critical, and scathing posts to you do NOT mean you are a terrible person. It means they question what your opinions are.

I am not talking about the marie post. I am basing my post on our interactions. Asking me if i was threating you was passive aggressive and playing a victim. Yes it is fine to set limits with people...however that does not mean they have to play by the limits you set.

Now.... the thing with your limits is in part what i was saying about you feeling free to dish..and not want to take it. If you set your limits for others....you have to PLAY by your limits.

Let's get back to the topic please. I have already indicated that I welcome anyone to set limits with me and I will set limits with others.

I won't respond to name calling.

She continues to assert her problem with me is about name calling.

It isn't. She didn't neg rep me for name calling, she neg repped me for telling everybody she's a liar.

Which of course she is.

And sorry, Syrenn, I don't like Sky. I don't like dishonest people, period.

 

[R.D.]

I am working on getting over my past. If your point is you don't want me to post until I have completely healed everything and no longer refer to it, I think that's an unreasonable request.

I'm not here to be analyzed by a bunch of strangers whose real names I don't even know. I have plenty of resources in my real life to help me work on my wounds.

Truth is, sometimes religion is inappropriately used and unnecessary force is applied. Example: the Magdalene homes in Ireland.

Actually talking about your past is part of the healing process.


Again...you have issues with and around your grandmother. What year did all of that take place for her? It would give context.

I do not 'have issues' with my grandmother. I never knew her. I have issues with perpetrators of child abuse, domestic violence and religious abuse.

Just because someone is a nun, priest or Christian doesn't excuse bad behavior.

That being the care you received in the Catholic Charities Home as a teen?

 

[Sky Dancer]

What is religious abuse?

Here's an article:
http://www.reveal.org/development/Churches_that_Abuse.pdf

Subtopics are manipulation, authoritarian leadership, excessive discipline and legalism.

 

[Sky Dancer]

Actually talking about your past is part of the healing process.


Again...you have issues with and around your grandmother. What year did all of that take place for her? It would give context.

I do not 'have issues' with my grandmother. I never knew her. I have issues with perpetrators of child abuse, domestic violence and religious abuse.

Just because someone is a nun, priest or Christian doesn't excuse bad behavior.

That being the care you received in the Catholic Charities Home as a teen?

That being what is described in the link I just provided. This is not about me.

 

[R.D.]

I do not 'have issues' with my grandmother. I never knew her. I have issues with perpetrators of child abuse, domestic violence and religious abuse.

Just because someone is a nun, priest or Christian doesn't excuse bad behavior.

That being the care you received in the Catholic Charities Home as a teen?

That being what is described in the link I just provided. This is not about me.

I didn't read or refer to the link. You said you were abused at the Catholic Charities home.

 

[Foxfyre]

What is religious abuse?

Here's an article:
http://www.reveal.org/development/Churches_that_Abuse.pdf

Subtopics are manipulation, authoritarian leadership, excessive discipline and legalism.

And what do you know of Ronald Enroth? Can you say with confidence that he does not bring any of his own evangelical prejudices into his criticism of the religious practices of others? I'm not saying he does because I don't know, but I do know that anybody can pluck 'rules' and 'definitions' off the internet and hold them out as 'proof' of just about anything. And they will almost always be short sighted when they do that.

There are fundamentalists who consider peoples of other traditions the devil's adversaries and the abomination that God hates as expressed in the Bible. There are high church advocates who consider more simple faiths to be ignorant and wrong headed while those of the more simple faiths might see the high church crowd as worshipping 'doing church' instead of worshipping the living Christ.

Some churches teach that it is the church itself that is the vehicle of salvation and others believe that the denomination matters little but it is the relationship with Jesus Christ that is the only important thing. Some quibble over the exact words that must be said in various rites and rituals--some make certain things sacred while others see them as purely symbolic. Some teach that Buddhism is the true path to enlightenment and others will believe that Buddhists gravely err when they reject God and are cruel to their children when they teach them there is no God.

All this is to say that your concept of 'religious abuse' comes from your own experience and understanding which may not mesh with that others have experience and understand at all. Some might say you are FORCING your opinions on others when you state or copy and paste something as a religious fact.

 

[Sky Dancer]

What is religious abuse?

Here's an article:
http://www.reveal.org/development/Churches_that_Abuse.pdf

Subtopics are manipulation, authoritarian leadership, excessive discipline and legalism.

And what do you know of Ronald Enroth? Can you say with confidence that he does not bring any of his own evangelical prejudices into his criticism of the religious practices of others? I'm not saying he does because I don't know, but I do know that anybody can pluck 'rules' and 'definitions' off the internet and hold them out as 'proof' of just about anything. And they will almost always be short sighted when they do that.

There are fundamentalists who consider peoples of other traditions the devil's adversaries and the abomination that God hates as expressed in the Bible. There are high church advocates who consider more simple faiths to be ignorant and wrong headed while those of the more simple faiths might see the high church crowd as worshipping 'doing church' instead of worshipping the living Christ.

Some churches teach that it is the church itself that is the vehicle of salvation and others believe that the denomination matters little but it is the relationship with Jesus Christ that is the only important thing. Some quibble over the exact words that must be said in various rites and rituals--some make certain things sacred while others see them as purely symbolic. Some teach that Buddhism is the true path to enlightenment and others will believe that Buddhists gravely err when they reject God and are cruel to their children when they teach them there is no God.

All this is to say that your concept of 'religious abuse' comes from your own experience and understanding which may not mesh with that others have experience and understand at all. Some might say you are FORCING your opinions on others when you state or copy and paste something as a religious fact.[/QUOTE]


I'm hardly FORCING anyone to accept my opinion or the ideas in the article I posted, Fox. I'm only offering it. You don't have to read it, nor do you have to agree with the article or with me.

What constitutes religous abuse to you?

 

[Sky Dancer]

In Indiana, another sickened child died from a curable illness because of their parents' refusal to seek medical help for "religious convictions" instilled by their church's teachings. And in another local case, a pastor who has made himself a "papaw" to his flock, threatens via prophetic utterance all who waver at coming forward in a mass public baptism with death by auto accident at the hands of a "death angel" and subsequent eternal damnation if they do not follow through.

Religious abuse is the crushing inner psychological, spiritual and emotional damage suffered by members of authoritarian communities of faith whenever its spiritual authority is twisted by spiritual leaders to achieve a desired goal through unethical, cruel and damaging means. Sometimes these may be physical or sexual in nature, but much more often it is more clearly seen in the many various forms of mental and spiritual trauma that are inflicted upon church members, often through the practice of abusive leaders using personal influence upon a community of faith to turn people on one another to exercise and magnify their power and position in the name of "church order."

This sort of "discipline" often deeply crushes the mind and spirit of the church member who was unfortunate enough to become subject to it. Individual initiative, critical thinking and personal choices of action are strongly discouraged and condemned by aberrant church leaders as sinful pride. It is made quite clear to the group by the pastor or leaders that the only really important goals in life are those that they dictate to the group. These practices - harsh and bizarre as they often become - are viewed by the group leaders as genuine acts of devotion that all true believers will gladly submit to so as to obtain divine favor and spiritual growth.
What Religious Abuse Is About