Protest forming against ground zero mosque

[Immanuel]

You stated:

"Right now all you have is the word of an attorney... and the media."

That is absolutely false. On top of Bishops affirming the order, on top of this being factually proven in the recent Irish case where:


"Yesterday, the head of Ireland's Catholics, Cardinal Sean Brady, apologised for his role in covering up abuse after admitting being present at two closed tribunals to discuss abuse allegations against Father Brendan Smyth.

Smyth died in prison while serving 12 years for 74 sexual assaults on children."
Http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2010/mar/18/irish-catholic-church-child-abuse

....on top of all of that do you know what else I have?

The {edit for inappropriateness} Pope admitting it is a Vatican policy. You've even quoted my post with the link quoting his admission.

What the hell else would be required?

I'm having a problem finding where exactly the Pope admitted this was Vatican policy.

I see by this link that the Pope condemns the actions:

Pope blasts Irish bishops, orders Vatican probe - USATODAY.com

In particular, the so-called Murphy report faulted the 2001 secrecy letter penned by then-Cardinal Ratzinger, who headed the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith for a quarter-century before becoming pope, making him the most informed Vatican official about the global scale of clerical abuse.

In that role, he denounced the "filth" in the priesthood and initiated what has amounted to a crackdown on predatory priests, demanding a policy of zero tolerance from his bishops. As pope, he has met with American, Australian and Canadian victims of abuse, offering them comfort and apologies.
I know there was another link that you provided that I thought it might have been in, but I don't remember how far back it was.

What exactly are you saying the Pope admitted was church policy? Hiding information from the authorities or what is stated here: "the Vatican insists that secrecy rule only applied to the church's investigation and didn't preclude reporting abuse to police."

What exactly did the Pope admit?

And again, I'm not defending the church. I'm simply asking questions.

I think you assume the worst case against the church and have accepted that whatever the media says is gospel in this case.

Immie

You're a fuckstick. You just got done blasting me for saying the pope shouldn't be believed but you cite the pope to claim he condemned what happened.

Unlike you, I haven't simply "gone by the media." Hell, hardly anything I've supplied has been speculation by the media. I live in Boston so I've been studying this issue for quite a few years so you can fuck off with your assumptions I simply accept what the "media" says. You've just proven your hypocrisy.

I did not say that the Pope should not be believed. Seems you have reading comprehension problems.

Is this the quote to which you refer?

Oh and by the way, I don't pay a whole hell of a lot of attention to the Pope. Maybe you do? I find his office to be... well, let's not go there, it got Luther in a hell of a lot of trouble that I would rather not get myself into.

I didn't say he should not be believed. I said I don't pay a whole hell of a lot of attention to him. I sure as hell did not say he was a liar.

Maybe you just don't understand the allusion to Martin Luther? Luther claimed the office of the Pope was anti-Christ. Not that the Pope was, but the office of the Pope.

I have to assume that you have gone strictly by the media as you have presented only one side of the issue and you seem to accept everything they say.

Immie

 

[JBeukema]

I see by this link that the Pope condemns the actions:

bullshit

He covered up one event himself that we know of prior to being voted pope

 

[Immanuel]

I see by this link that the Pope condemns the actions:

bullshit

He covered up one event himself that we know of prior to being voted pope

In that link, he condemns the actions. I'm only going by what the article says.

Seems to me that I read in one of those articles that the ex deacon claims he covered up one event himself and if I am not mistaken it further states that the then Cardinal Ratzinger transferred the pedophile to another position and that the pedophile later abused other children.

I don't think there is any doubt that sexual abuse has gone on in the Catholic Church. What I find hard to believe is that the Catholic Church insists that its clergy remain silent to authorities about it.

Then again, I believe that in confession they have undertaken vows of confidentiality, but I do not believe that confession is the issue in these cases. My understanding is that this deals with when a victim comes forward.

CL pointed out that a Cardinal apologized for his role and the requirement of the vow of silence on the part of the victim. I don't deny that this Cardinal required such vows be made, what I am struggling with is whether or not that is the actual policy of the Catholic Church.

Immie

 

[Immanuel]

I see by this link that the Pope condemns the actions:

bullshit

He covered up one event himself that we know of prior to being voted pope

Oh and one more thing, if this doesn't sound like passing the buck, I don't know what does.

"I recognize how difficult it was to grasp the extent and complexity of the problem, to obtain reliable information and to make the right decisions in the light of conflicting expert advice," Benedict wrote.

"Nevertheless, it must be admitted that grave errors of judgment were made and failures of leadership occurred. And this has seriously undermined your credibility and effectiveness."

http://www.usatoday.com/news/religion/2010-03-20-church-abuse-pope_N.htm

Immie

 

[Kalam]

You have correctly pointed out that wars are taking place around the world that involve religiously identifiable groups.

Religious groups are even at war with other religious groups and atrocities take place on both sides, but that is not the same as targeting civilian groups because they refuse to convert to your religion. Islam is unique in its use of terrorism as a tool of evangelism.

Oh boy, another "scholar of Islam."

Sahih Muslim (19:4294) - "When you meet your enemies who are polytheists [Christians...], invite them to three courses of action. If they respond to any one of these, you also accept it and withhold yourself from doing them any harm. Invite them to (accept) Islam; if they respond to you, accept it from them and desist from fighting against them ... If they refuse to accept Islam, demand from them the Jizya. If they agree to pay, accept it from them and hold off your hands. If they refuse to pay the tax, seek Allah's help and fight them"[/I]

Truncated passage, fabricated parenthetical additions... probably copied and pasted from a propaganda website. "Religionofpeace.com" maybe?

"Polytheists" (mushrikuun) and "Christians" are not interchangeable.

It has been reported from Sulayman ibn Burayd through his father that when the Messenger of Allah appointed anyone as leader of an army or detachment he would especially exhort him to fear Allah and to be good to the Muslims who were with him. He would say, "Fight in the name of Allah and in the way of Allah. Fight against those who disbelieve in Allah. Make a holy war, do not embezzle the spoils; do not break your pledge; and do not mutilate bodies; do not kill the children. When you meet your enemies who are polytheists, invite them to three courses of action. If they respond to any one of these, you also accept it and withhold yourself from doing them any harm. Invite them to Islam; if they respond to you, accept it from them and desist from fighting against them. Then invite them to migrate from their lands to the land of the Emigrants and inform them that, if they do so, they shall have all the privileges and obligations of the Emigrants. If they refuse to migrate, tell them that they will have the status of nomadic Muslims and will be subjected to the Commands of Allah like other Muslims, but they will not get any share from the spoils of war or tribute except when they actually fight along with the Muslims. If they refuse to accept Islam, demand from them the Jizya. If they agree to pay, accept it from them and hold off your hands. If they refuse to pay the tax, seek Allah's help and fight them." - Sahih Muslim, Jihad wa'l-Siyar, no. 4294 (reported again by Sulayman in 4295 and by Shu'ba in 4296.)​

Multiple problems with your analysis. First of all, there is no reference to "civilians." We can refer to the ahadith that precedes the one you attempted to quote:

The Messenger of Allah made a raid upon the Banu Mustaliq while they were unaware and their cattle were having a drink at the water. He slew those who fought and detained others. On that very day, he captured Juwayriya bint al-Harith. Nafi' said that this tradition was related to him by Abdullah ibn Umar, who was among the raiding troops. - Sahih Muslim, Jihad wa'l-Siyar, no. 4292 (also reported by Ibn 'Aun in 4293.)​

To give some background, The Banu Mustaliq were a tribe that had aligned themselves with the Quraysh. At the time of the raid, their Chief, al-Harith, was preparing to mobilize his forces for an attack against the Muslims. His daughter, Juwayriya (RA), appealed to Muhammad (SAWS) and revealed her identity to him after she was detained along with other noncombatants from the tribe; he proposed to pay her ransom himself and take her hand in marriage, which she happily accepted. She and most of the other freedmen from among the Banu Mustaliq became very pious Muslims.

Anyway, the ahadith specifically makes note of how only combatants were engaged in battle even though the tribe had been openly hostile towards Muslims. The image of wild-eyed fanatics tearing their way across the peninsula and slaughtering all who refused to convert is a figment of the orientalist's imagination.

For more clarification of the rules of war and the treatment of disbelievers, we can simply keep reading:

It has been narrated on the authority of Abu Masa that when the Messenger of Allah deputed any of his Companions on a mission, he would say, "Give tidings; do not create aversion; show them leniency and do not be hard upon them." - Sahih Muslim, Jihad wa'l-Siyar, no. 4297

It has also been narrated by Sa'd b. Abu Burda through his father through his grandfather that the Prophet of Allah sent him and Mu'adh to Yaman, and said, "Show leniency; don't be hard upon them, give them glad tidings, and do not create aversion. Work in collaboration and don't be divided." - Sahih Muslim, Jihad wa'l-Siyar, no. 4298 (also reported by Burayda in 4299)

The Messenger of Allah has been reported by Anas ibn Malik to have said, "Show leniency; do not be hard, give solace, and do not create aversion." - Sahih Muslim, Jihad wa'l Siyar, no. 4300​

Bukhari (2:24) - "Allah's Apostle said: "I have been ordered (by Allah) to fight against the people until they testify that none has the right to be worshipped but Allah and that Muhammad is Allah's Apostle, and offer the prayers perfectly and give the obligatory charity, so if they perform a that, then they save their lives and property from me except for Islamic laws and then their reckoning (accounts) will be done by Allah."

Poorly worded but more or less accurate. Notice the use of the specific term "the people" rather than "disbelievers", etc. Ibn Taymiyyah (RA) explains:

"It refers to fighting those who are waging war, whom Allah has permitted us to fight. It does not refer to those who have a covenant with us with whom Allah commands us to fulfill our covenant." - Taqi ad-Din Ibn Taymiyah, Majmu al-Fatawa (19/20)

Ibn Taymiyya, Taqi al-Din (1263-1328)​

Specifically, this ahadith was invoked by Abu Bakr (RA) when he launched a campaign against groups of rebels who had broken away from Islam, declared their leaders prophets of God, and attacked Madinah. This occurred after the death of Muhammad (SAWS) when some who had followed him refused to acknowledge the authority of Abu Bakr.

Ibn Ishaq 959

This passage exists in Ibn Hisham's biography, but no background information is provided about the tribe (Banu'l-Harith ibn Ka'b of Najran), nor have I ever been able to verify it using any authentic ahadith. All of the tribes of Arabia who were threatened with war had either aligned themselves with the Quraysh or had attacked or planned to attack Muslims themselves.

As for the "convert or kill" comment...

That concept has no basis in Islam; no notable scholar has ever denied that people have the right to follow religions other than Islam. This includes modern Islamist thinkers such as the "father of radical fundamentalism," Sayyid Qutb:

"Islam does not force people to accept its belief, but it wants to provide a free environment in which they will have the choice of beliefs. What it wants is to abolish those oppressive political systems under which people are prevented from expressing their freedom to choose whatever beliefs they want, and after that it gives them complete freedom to decide whether they will accept Islam or not." - Qutb, Milestones, p. 56

Syed Qutb​

And the eminent scholar Abul A'ala Maududi (RA), whose work influenced Qutb:

"Along with the freedom of conviction and freedom of conscience, Islam has given the right to the individual that his religious sentiments will be given due respect and nothing will be said or done which may encroach upon this right. It has been ordained by God in the Holy Qur'an: 'Do not abuse those that they appeal to instead of God' (6:108). These instructions are not only limited to idols and deities, but they also apply to the leaders or national heroes of the people. If a group of people holds a conviction which according to you is wrong, and holds certain persons in high esteem which according to you is not deserved by them, then it will not be justified in Islam that you use abusive language for them and thus injure their feelings. Islam does not prohibit people from holding debate and discussion on religious matters, but it wants that these discussions should be conducted in decency. 'Do not argue with the people of the Book unless it is in the politest manner' (29:46) - says the Qur'an. This order is not merely limited to the people of the Scriptures, but applies with equal force to those following other faiths." - Maududi, Human Rights in Islam, pp. 17-18

PWHCE Middle East Project: Maulana Maududi Profile​

 

[Kalam]

As for your false characterization of the conflicts I cited as non-religious in nature, please re-read my post about the Bosnian genocide. Muslims were specifically targeted because they were Muslims and were humiliated and tortured using methods that were contrived specifically to offend their religious sensibilities (using the mosque's loudspeaker to signal times at which Muslim women were to be raped, etc.) Furthermore, the Christian clergy itself played an enormous role in supporting the genocide, especially the Greeks. Your willful ignorance of the genocide's religious underpinnings does nothing to advance your cause.

 

[Kalam]

I can't help but think that the reaction to this incident would be different if members of some other religion were involved. ....

That's because you relish in being a victim. Most Muslims do.

How interesting. The angrier you are, the more prone you are to making silly generalizations.

 

[Mr.Fitnah]

Kalam

BLAH BLAH BLAH

Ah the unprovoked attack on the Banu Mustaliq

The Book of Jihad and Expedition (Kitab Al-Jihad wa'l-Siyar)
Muslim :: Book 19 : Hadith 4292
Ibn 'Aun reported: I wrote to Nafi' inquiring from him whether it was necessary to extend (to the disbelievers) an invitation to accept (Islam) before m". ing them in fight. He wrote (in reply) to me that it was necessary in the early days of Islam. The Messenger of Allah (may peace be upon him) made a raid upon Banu Mustaliq while they were unaware and their cattle were having a drink at the water. He killed those who fought and imprisoned others. On that very day, he captured Juwairiya bint al-Harith. Nafi' said that this tradition was related to him by Abdullah b. Umar who (himself) was among the raiding troops.

That led to Islams prophet to give the green light to rape

Military Expeditions led by the Prophet (pbuh) (Al-Maghaazi)
Bukhari :: Book 5 :: Volume 59 :: Hadith 459
Narrated Ibn Muhairiz:

I entered the Mosque and saw Abu Said Al-Khudri and sat beside him and asked him about Al-Azl (i.e. coitus interruptus). Abu Said said, "We went out with Allah's Apostle for the Ghazwa of Banu Al-Mustaliq and we received captives from among the Arab captives and we desired women and celibacy became hard on us and we loved to do coitus interruptus. So when we intended to do coitus interrupt us, we said, 'How can we do coitus interruptus before asking Allah's Apostle who is present among us?" We asked (him) about it and he said, 'It is better for you not to do so, for if any soul (till the Day of Resurrection) is predestined to exist, it will exist."


Seems it is unnecessary to invite the people to Islam before you attack them


The Book of Jihad and Expedition (Kitab Al-Jihad wa'l-Siyar)
Muslim :: Book 19 : Hadith 4292
Ibn 'Aun reported: I wrote to Nafi' inquiring from him whether it was necessary to extend (to the disbelievers) an invitation to accept (Islam) before m". ing them in fight. He wrote (in reply) to me that it was necessary in the early days of Islam. The Messenger of Allah (may peace be upon him) made a raid upon Banu Mustaliq while they were unaware and their cattle were having a drink at the water. He killed those who fought and imprisoned others. On that very day, he captured Juwairiya bint al-Harith. Nafi' said that this tradition was related to him by Abdullah b. Umar who (himself) was among the raiding troops.


All from Sahih Bukari

Sahih al-Bukhari (Arabic: صحيح البخاري&#8206, as it is commonly referred to as, is one of the six canonical hadith collections of Sunni Islam. These prophetic traditions, or hadith, were collected by the Muslim scholar Muhammad ibn Ismail al-Bukhari (810–870) and compiled during his lifetime. Most Muslims view this as their most trusted collection of hadith and it is considered the most authentic book after the Qur'an.[1] Sahih translates as authentic or correct.[2]

Belief
Bukhari :: Book 1 :: Volume 2 :: Hadith 24
Narrated Ibn 'Umar:

Allah's Apostle said: "I have been ordered (by Allah) to fight against the people until they testify that none has the right to be worshipped but Allah and that Muhammad is Allah's Apostle, and offer the prayers perfectly and give the obligatory charity, so if they perform a that, then they save their lives an property from me except for Islamic laws and then their reckoning (accounts) will be done by Allah."

And of course moallah is the alpha muslim

33:21. Indeed in the Messenger of Allâh (Muhammad ) you have a good example to follow for him who hopes in (the Meeting with) Allâh and the Last Day and remembers Allâh much.


echoed in the Quran

8:39

And fight them until there is no more Fitnah (disbelief and polytheism: i.e. worshipping others besides Allâh) and the religion (worship) will all be for Allâh Alone [in the whole of the world[]]. But if they cease (worshipping others besides Allâh), then certainly, Allâh is All-Seer of what they do
2:193.
And fight them until there is no more Fitnah (disbelief and worshipping of others along with Allâh) and (all and every kind of) worship is for Allâh (Alone).[] But if they cease, let there be no transgression except against Az-Zâlimûn (the polytheists, and wrong-doers, etc193

http://www.ummah.com/what-is-islam/quran/noble/

http://www.tafsir.com/default.asp?sid=8&tid=20140

http://www.tafsir.com/default.asp?sid=2&tid=5008

http://www.tafsir.com/default.asp?sid=2&tid=5035

 

[Mr.Fitnah]

As for the "convert or kill" comment...

That concept has no basis in Islam; no notable scholar has ever denied that people have the right to follow religions other than Islam.

yeah right

The Book of Jihad and Expedition (Kitab Al-Jihad wa'l-Siyar)
Muslim :: Book 19 : Hadith 4294
It has been reported from Sulaiman b. Buraid through his father that when the Messenger of Allah (may peace be upon him) appointed anyone as leader of an army or detachment he would especially exhort him to fear Allah and to be good to the Muslims who were with him. He would say: Fight in the name of Allah and in the way of Allah. Fight against those who disbelieve in Allah. Make a holy war, do not embezzle the spoils; do not break your pledge; and do not mutilate (the dead) bodies; do not kill the children. When you meet your enemies who are polytheists, invite them to three courses of action. If they respond to any one of these, you also accept it and withold yourself from doing them any harm. Invite them to (accept) Islam; if they respond to you, accept it from them and desist from fighting against them. Then invite them to migrate from their lands to the land of Muhairs and inform them that, if they do so, they shall have all the privileges and obligations of the Muhajirs. If they refuse to migrate, tell them that they will have the status of Bedouin Muilims and will be subjected to the Commands of Allah like other Muslims, but they will not get any share from the spoils of war or Fai' except when they actually fight with the Muslims (against the disbelievers).

If they refuse to accept Islam, demand from them the Jizya.

If they agree to pay, accept it from them and hold off your hands. If they refuse to pay the tax, seek Allah's help and fight them.

When you lay siege to a fort and the besieged appeal to you for protection in the name of Allah and His Prophet, do not accord to them the guarantee of Allah and His Prophet, but accord to them your own guarantee and the guarantee of your companions for it is a lesser sin that the security given by you or your companions be disregarded than that the security granted in the name of Allah and His Prophet be violated When you besiege a fort and the besieged want you to let them out in accordance with Allah's Command, do not let them come out in accordance with His Command, but do so at your (own) command, for you do not know whether or not you will be able to carry out Allah's behest with regard to them.

 

[Mr.Fitnah]

As for the "convert or kill" comment...

That concept has no basis in Islam; no notable scholar has ever denied that people have the right to follow religions other than Islam.

yeah right


The Punishment of those Who Cause Mischief in the Land

Allah said next,

[إِنَّمَا جَزَآءُ الَّذِينَ يُحَارِبُونَ اللَّهَ وَرَسُولَهُ وَيَسْعَوْنَ فِى الاٌّرْضِ فَسَاداً أَن يُقَتَّلُواْ أَوْ يُصَلَّبُواْ أَوْ تُقَطَّعَ أَيْدِيهِمْ وَأَرْجُلُهُم مِّنْ خِلَـفٍ أَوْ يُنفَوْاْ مِنَ الاٌّرْضِ]

(The recompense of those who wage war against Allah and His Messenger and do mischief in the land is only that they shall be killed or crucified or their hands and their feet be cut off on the opposite sides, or be exiled from the land.) `Wage war' mentioned here means, oppose and contradict, and it includes disbelief, blocking roads and spreading fear in the fairways. Mischief in the land refers to various types of evil. Ibn Jarir recorded that `Ikrimah and Al-Hasan Al-Basri said that the Ayat,

Tafsir.com Tafsir Ibn Kathir

 

[Mr.Fitnah]

As for the "convert or kill" comment...

That concept has no basis in Islam; no notable scholar has ever denied that people have the right to follow religions other than Islam.

yeah right


The Order to fight to eradicate Shirk and Kufr

Allah said,

[وَقَـتِلُوهُمْ حَتَّى لاَ تَكُونَ فِتْنَةٌ وَيَكُونَ الدِّينُ كُلُّهُ لِلهِ]

(And fight them until there is no more Fitnah, and the religion will all be for Allah alone.)

Tafsir.com Tafsir Ibn Kathir

 

[Mr.Fitnah]

As for the "convert or kill" comment...

That concept has no basis in Islam; no notable scholar has ever denied that people have the right to follow religions other than Islam.

yeah right

Fighting the Jews and Christians is legislated because They are Idolators and Disbelievers

Allah the Exalted encourages the believers to fight the polytheists, disbelieving Jews and Christians, who uttered this terrible statement and utter lies against Allah, the Exalted. As for the Jews, they claimed that `Uzayr was the son of God, Allah is free of what they attribute to Him. As for the misguidance of Christians over `Isa, it is obvious. This is why Allah declared both groups to be liars,

Tafsir.com Tafsir Ibn Kathir

 

[Mr.Fitnah]

As for the "convert or kill" comment...

That concept has no basis in Islam; no notable scholar has ever denied that people have the right to follow religions other than Islam.

yeah right

snip

(and besiege them, and lie in wait for them in each and every ambush), do not wait until you find them. Rather, seek and besiege them in their areas and forts, gather intelligence about them in the various roads and fairways so that what is made wide looks ever smaller to them. This way, they will have no choice, but to die or embrace Islam,

Tafsir.com Tafsir Ibn Kathir

 

[Mr.Fitnah]

As for the "convert or kill" comment...

That concept has no basis in Islam; no notable scholar has ever denied that people have the right to follow religions other than Islam.

yeah right

8:39

And fight them until there is no more Fitnah (disbelief and polytheism: i.e. worshipping others besides Allâh) and the religion (worship) will all be for Allâh Alone [in the whole of the world[]]. But if they cease (worshipping others besides Allâh), then certainly, Allâh is All-Seer of what they do
2:193.
And fight them until there is no more Fitnah (disbelief and worshipping of others along with Allâh) and (all and every kind of) worship is for Allâh (Alone).[] But if they cease, let there be no transgression except against Az-Zâlimûn (the polytheists, and wrong-doers, etc193

http://www.ummah.com/what-is-islam/quran/noble/

Tafsir.com Tafsir Ibn Kathir

Tafsir.com Tafsir Ibn Kathir

Tafsir.com Tafsir Ibn Kathir

 

[Kalam]

Logbook: Entry 2,564 (13 March 2010)

After period of relative tranquility, patient seems to have undergone full relapse to previous level of estrangement from reality.

Kalam

BLAH BLAH BLAH

Exposure to factual information that contradicts patient's delusion has provoked a predictably angry response:

"An attempt to contradict the belief is likely to arouse an inappropriately strong emotional reaction, often with irritability and hostility."​

Reaction to all attempts at treatment has been overwhelmingly negative. If allowed to continue on present course unhindered, however, patient's already volatile mind may venture into the realm of the criminally insane; Institutionalization may be only remaining option.

Ah the unprovoked attack on the Banu Mustaliq

Patient has bolded text of own message in display of unwarranted self-importance; assumption made that ramblings are of any interest to the general population. Patient now exhibiting combination of Narcissistic Personality Disorder and Delusional Disorder.

Patient continuously makes assertions that are genuinely believed to be true but have no basis in fact. Delusion concerning "Muslim persecution" has led to belief that all actions undertaken by Muslims are "unprovoked" or "criminal"; any attempt at reconciliation with reality induces extended temper tantrums, foaming at mouth.

"Word reached the Messenger of Allah that the Banu Mustaliq were gathering against him under the leadership of al-Harith ibn Abi Birar." - at-Tabari​

That led to Islams prophet to give the green light to rape

Patient continues to make assertions consistent with delusional universe, attempts to make connections between unrelated objects and passages in order to maintain this consistency.

I entered the Mosque and saw Abu Said Al-Khudri and sat beside him and asked him about Al-Azl (i.e. coitus interruptus). Abu Said said, "We went out with Allah's Apostle for the Ghazwa of Banu Al-Mustaliq and we received captives from among the Arab captives and we desired women and celibacy became hard on us and we loved to do coitus interruptus. So when we intended to do coitus interrupt us, we said, 'How can we do coitus interruptus before asking Allah's Apostle who is present among us?" We asked (him) about it and he said, 'It is better for you not to do so, for if any soul (till the Day of Resurrection) is predestined to exist, it will exist."

Patient convinced that passage discouraging consensual sex is tantamount to "rape." Blithely unaware of strict prohibitions of rape, including rape of captives:

And let be chaste those who do not find marriage until Allah enriches them from His bounty. And those who seek the writing from whom your right hands possess, then give them writing if you know in them any good and give them from the wealth of Allah which He has given you. And compel not your servant-girls to debauchery (al-bighai' - adultery, fornication, prostitution) if they desire chastity, that you may seek the temporary gain of the life of this world. And whoever compels them, then indeed, Allah after their compulsion is Oft-Forgiving, Most Merciful. - 24:33​

Patient is unaware that forgiveness is reserved for the victim; hadd punishment for rapists is ar-rajm.

Narrated Wa'il ibn Hujr: When a woman went out in the time of the Prophet for prayer, a man attacked her and overpowered her. She shouted and he went off, and when a man came by, she said, "That (man) did such and such to me." And when a company of the Emigrants came by, she said, "That man did such and such to me." They went and seized the man whom they thought had had intercourse with her and brought him to her. She said: Yes, this is he. Then they brought him to the Messenger of Allah. When he was about to pass sentence, the man who had attacked her stood and said, "Messenger of Allah, I am the man who did it to her." He (Muhammad SAWS) said to her, "Go off, for Allah has forgiven you." But he told the man some good words, and of the man who had had intercourse with her, he said, "Stone him to death." He also said, "He has repented to such an extent that if the people of Madinah had repented similarly, it would have been accepted from them." - Sunan Abu Dawud, Hudud, no. 4366
​

Seems it is unnecessary to invite the people to Islam before you attack them

Subject apparently surprised that da'wah is not a necessary prerequisite for jihad against oppressors and aggressors.

حربا على كل حرب
سلما لكل مسالـــم

Harbaan 'ala kuli hirabi,
Silmaan akuli musaalim.

War with every aggressor,
Peace with every pacifist.

[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K8SlbPeE5YY]YouTube - The Word is the Word of the Sword - Nasheed.[/ame]

Allah's Apostle said: "I have been ordered (by Allah) to fight against the people until they testify that none has the right to be worshipped but Allah and that Muhammad is Allah's Apostle, and offer the prayers perfectly and give the obligatory charity, so if they perform a that, then they save their lives an property from me except for Islamic laws and then their reckoning (accounts) will be done by Allah."

"It refers to fighting those who are waging war, whom Allah has permitted us to fight. It does not refer to those who have a covenant with us with whom Allah commands us to fulfill our covenant." - Taqi ad-Din Ibn Taymiyah, Majmu al-Fatawa (19/20)

Ibn Taymiyya, Taqi al-Din (1263-1328)​

8:39 And fight them until there is no more Fitnah (disbelief and polytheism: i.e. worshipping others besides Allâh) and the religion (worship) will all be for Allâh Alone [in the whole of the world[]]. But if they cease (worshipping others besides Allâh), then certainly, Allâh is All-Seer of what they do

Subject uses notoriously poor Saudi propaganda to force false meanings onto words he doesn't understand:

And fight them until there is no oppression* and the religion is all for Allah. But if they cease, then indeed, Allah is All-Seer of what they do. - 8:39​

fitnatun - A burning with fire. (T.) - And The melting of gold and of silver (K, TA) in order to separate, or distinguish, the bad from the good. (TA.) - And [hence, or] from signifying "he melted," (T,) or from that verb as signifying "he put into the fire," (Msb,) gold, and silver, "for that purpose," (T, Msb,) it signifies A trial, or probation; (IAr, T, i, M, Ik, TA ) and affliction, distress, or hardship; (TA) and [particularly] an affliction whereby one is tried, proved, or tested: (IAar, T, S, K, TA) this is the sum of its meaning in the language of the Arabs: (T, TA :*) or the trial whereby the condition of a man may be evinced: this, accord .to Zj, may be the meaning in the Kur v. 45: (M) or a mean whereby the condition of a man is evinced, in respect of good and of evil: (Kull) [hence it often means a temptation] - Lane's Arabic-English Lexicon, Volume 6, p. 119

2:193.
And fight them until there is no more Fitnah (disbelief and worshipping of others along with Allâh) and (all and every kind of) worship is for Allâh (Alone).[] But if they cease, let there be no transgression except against Az-Zâlimûn (the polytheists, and wrong-doers, etc193

And again...

And fight them until oppression is not, and the religion becomes for Allah. Then if they cease then (let there be) no hostility except against the wrongdoers*. The sacred month for the sacred month, and for all the violations is legal retribution. Then whoever transgressed upon you then you transgress on him in the same manner as he transgressed upon you. And fear Allah and know that Allah is with those who fear. - 2:193-194

*adh-dhalimiina - wrongdoers (dhalama - to do wrong or evil, treat unjustly, ill-treat, oppress, harm, suppress, tyrannize, misuse, act wrongfully, deprive anyone of a right, misplace, injure, be oppressive, be guilty of injustice, act wickedly, be wanting in or fail.) - Lane's Lexicon, pp. 351-352​

Subject is unable to produce any reliable evidence that either word he cites means "polytheism/polytheists", yet clings to his assertion in spite of being completely unfamiliar with the language. Will have orderlies put him down for tonight and continue observation tomorrow.

 

[JW Frogen]

Let me get all Forrest Gump here; religion is as religion does.

 

[Kalam]

Logbook: Entry 2,565 (14 March 2010)

Subject has broken through restraints and is currently on a rampage; no semblance of rational thought remains.

If they refuse to accept Islam, demand from them the Jizya.

If they agree to pay, accept it from them and hold off your hands. If they refuse to pay the tax, seek Allah's help and fight them.

In fit of rage, subject unable to tell that even those who initiate hostilities are free to practice religion if they surrender.

 

[Kalam]

Logbook: Entry 2,566 (14 March 2010)

The Punishment of those Who Cause Mischief in the Land

Allah said next,

[إِنَّمَا جَزَآءُ الَّذِينَ يُحَارِبُونَ اللَّهَ وَرَسُولَهُ وَيَسْعَوْنَ فِى الاٌّرْضِ فَسَاداً أَن يُقَتَّلُواْ أَوْ يُصَلَّبُواْ أَوْ تُقَطَّعَ أَيْدِيهِمْ وَأَرْجُلُهُم مِّنْ خِلَـفٍ أَوْ يُنفَوْاْ مِنَ الاٌّرْضِ]

(The recompense of those who wage war against Allah and His Messenger and do mischief in the land is only that they shall be killed or crucified or their hands and their feet be cut off on the opposite sides, or be exiled from the land.)

Neither fasad nor hirabah have anything to do with disbelief per se; the interpretation makes unsubstantiated assumptions and is flawed. More accurately:

*55. The 'land' signifies either the country or territory wherein the responsibility of establishing law and order has been undertaken by an Islamic state. The expression 'to wage war against Allah and His Messenger' denotes war against the righteous order established by the Islamic state. It is God's purpose, and it is for this very purpose that God sent His Messengers, that a righteous order of life be established on earth; an order that would provide peace and security to everything found on earth; an order under whose benign shadow humanity would be able to attain its perfection; an order under which the resources of the earth would be exploited in a manner conducive to man's progress and prosperity rather than to his ruin and destruction. If anyone tried to disrupt such an order, whether on a limited scale by committing murder and destruction and robbery and brigandry or on a large scale by attempting to overthrow that order and establish some unrighteous order instead, he would in fact be guilty of waging war against God and His Messenger. All this is not unlike the situation where someone tries to overthrow the established government in a country. Such a person will be convicted of 'waging war against the state' even though his actual action may have been directed against an ordinary policeman in some remote part of the country, and irrespective of how remote the sovereign himself is from him.

*56. These penalties are mentioned here in brief merely to serve as guidelines to either judges or rulers so they may punish each criminal in accordance with the nature of his crime. The real purpose is to indicate that for any of those who live in the Islamic realm to attempt to overthrow the Islamic order is the worst kind of crime, for which any of the highly severe punishments may be imposed.

(5:34) except for those who repent before you have overpowered them. Know well that Allah is All-Forgiving, All-Compassionate.57

*57. If they give up subversion and abandon their endeavour to disrupt or overthrow the righteous order, and their subsequent conduct shows that they have indeed become peace-loving, law-abiding citizens of good character, they need not be subjected to the punishments mentioned here even if any of their former crimes against the state should come to light. If their crime involves violation of the rights of other men they may not be absolved from their guilt. If, for instance, they have either killed a person, seized someone's property or committed any other crime against human life or property they will be tried according to the criminal law of Islam. They will not, however, be accused of either rebellion and high treason or of waging war against God and His Messenger. - Abul A'ala Maududi (RA), Tafhim al-Qur'an, Surah al Ma'idah 33-34
​

Also

The sūrah lays down the punishment for the crime that such wicked elements commit. This is known in the Islamic legal code as the punishment for waging war against Islam: “It is but a just punishment of those who make war on God and His Messenger, and endeavour to spread corruption on earth, that they should be put to death, or be crucified, or have their hands and feet cut off on alternate sides or that they should be banished from the land. Such is their disgrace in this world, and more grievous suffering awaits them in the life to come; except those who repent before you overpower them. For you must know that God is Much-Forgiving, Merciful.” (Verses 33-34) The crime to which this legislative statement refers involves rebellion against a Muslim ruler who implements the laws of Islam. The rebels gather in a group renouncing the ruler’s authority. They cause fear among the Muslim community living in the Muslim land and they commit aggression against their lives and property. Some scholars also make it a condition that this should take place away from the areas where the ruler’s authority is enforced. Others suggest that the very fact that such rebels begin to gather and use force in aggression against the people of the land of Islam, makes this legal provision applicable to them wherever they are. This is probably more practical, because Islam adopts a pragmatic approach. Such rebels do not merely fight the ruler or the community, but they make war on God and His Messenger, since they fight God’s law, wage an assault against the community implementing it and threaten the land where the law is implemented. By doing so, they also spread corruption on earth. There is no worse corruption than the attempt to prevent the implementation of Divine law and to spread fear in a land where Divine law is applied. It is true that such rebels make war on God and His Messenger, although they surely do not fight God with their swords, and they do not fight His Messenger who has passed away. But by fighting the Muslim ruler and the Muslim community, they actually make war on God as they obstruct His law and prevent its implementation. Phrased in this way, the Qur’ānic statement also signifies that the ruler who is entitled to enforce these punishments against those who rebel against him is the ruler who actually implements God’s law in the land of Islam. Without such qualities, no ruler may implement these provisions or enforce these punishments. We wish to make this statement very clear, because some of those who are happy to be subservient to rulers in all generations try to use this verse for the wrong reasons. They find it easy to encourage the enforcement of such punishments by rulers who neither implement God’s law nor promote the establishment of the land of Islam in their countries, even though they may profess to be Muslims. Moreover, they want these punishments to be enforced against people who are not making war against God and His Messenger, but who fight a tyrannical power, disobedient to God and His Messenger. It must be understood that no authority has the backing of God’s law in its suppression of its enemies unless it implements God’s law. Why should an authority seek endorsement of its actions by God’s law anyway, when it rejects its implementation, thus claiming for itself certain qualities of Godhead? Let us consider a situation where an armed group rebels against the authority of a Muslim ruler who is implementing Islamic law and threatens the lives and properties of Muslims living in the land of Islam. The punishment for those who join such a group is death, or crucifixion, (although some scholars say that they should be crucified after they are put to death, in order to frighten others) or to cut off their right hands and left feet. - Sayyid Qutb, Fi Thilal al-Qur'an​

 

[Kalam]

As for the "convert or kill" comment...

That concept has no basis in Islam; no notable scholar has ever denied that people have the right to follow religions other than Islam.

yeah right


The Order to fight to eradicate Shirk and Kufr

Allah said,

[وَقَـتِلُوهُمْ حَتَّى لاَ تَكُونَ فِتْنَةٌ وَيَكُونَ الدِّينُ كُلُّهُ لِلهِ]

(And fight them until there is no more Fitnah, and the religion will all be for Allah alone.)

Tafsir.com Tafsir Ibn Kathir

Please cite any reliable lexicographical source that includes "polytheism" or "disbelief" as synonyms for fitnatun. Alternatively, continue to amuse me by displaying your ignorance of elementary Arabic.

 

[Kalam]

As for the "convert or kill" comment...

That concept has no basis in Islam; no notable scholar has ever denied that people have the right to follow religions other than Islam.

yeah right

snip

(and besiege them, and lie in wait for them in each and every ambush), do not wait until you find them. Rather, seek and besiege them in their areas and forts, gather intelligence about them in the various roads and fairways so that what is made wide looks ever smaller to them. This way, they will have no choice, but to die or embrace Islam,

Tafsir.com Tafsir Ibn Kathir

Fundamentally at odds with the Islamic religion. 9:29 allows unbelievers to live in the Khilafah autonomously and without normal obligations (zakah, jihad, shura, etc.) to society at large in exchange for a tax paid by their men of fighting age.

Yet despite the declaration of war against all the idolaters after the four months are over, Islam continues to demonstrate its grace as well as its serious and realistic approach. It does not seek to exterminate all idolaters. On the contrary, it also declares a campaign of guidance whenever that is possible. Individual idolaters who are not part of a hostile and belligerent community are guaranteed safety in the land of Islam. God instructs His Messenger to give them asylum so that they may listen to God’s word and become aware of the nature of the Islamic message before they are given safe conduct to their own domiciles. All this, even though they are still idolaters: “If any of the idolaters seeks asylum with you, grant him protection, so that he may hear the word of God, and then convey him to his place of safety. That is because the idolaters are people who lack knowledge.” (Verse 6) This shows how Islam was keen to reach out to every heart with its guidance. No single case was to be taken lightly. Whoever appeals for protection shall be granted it. Anyone who seeks such asylum cannot at the same time try to join a hostile force seeking to undermine the Muslim community. Hence granting protection to such a person provides him with the opportunity to listen to the Qur’ān and to get to know the true nature of the Islamic faith. When God’s word is heard in such an atmosphere, hearts may well respond positively. Even if they do not, the Muslims are still required to ensure the safety of anyone who appeals for their help until he is returned to a place where he feels secure. This is one of the sublime heights to which Islam raises its community. Protection is provided for an idolater, an enemy who might have participated in persecution of the Muslims themselves. Now they are required to give him safe conduct until he has reached a place where he feels secure outside the Muslim state. This is a mark of the Islamic method of action. It is a method of guidance, and guidance remains its ultimate goal even when its efforts are concentrated on the protection of the land of Islam. Yet some people claim that the purpose of Islamic jihād was to compel people to accept Islam. There are others who try to defend Islam against such a charge by claiming that jihād was merely a war of self defence within national borders. Both need to look at this great instruction given to the Prophet and the Muslim community: “If any of the idolaters seeks asylum with you, grant him protection, so that he may hear the word of God, and then convey him to his place of safety. That is because the idolaters are people who lack knowledge.” (Verse 6) This religion seeks to provide knowledge to those who lack such knowledge, and to give protection to whoever appeals for protection, even though they may belong to the enemy camp and who might have fought to suppress the Islamic message. It resorts to the use of force only to destroy physical forces that prevent people from listening to God’s word and stop them from knowing what He has revealed. Such forces deprive them of the chance to follow God’s guidance and force them into submission to beings other than God. When such physical forces have been destroyed and impediments have been removed, individuals are given protection, despite choosing to remain unbelievers. Islam only informs them of God’s word without subjecting them to fear or pressure, and grants them protection and security, the fact that they continue to reject God’s message notwithstanding. - Sayyid Qutb, Fi Thilal al-Qur'an​

And:

[9:6] And if any of those who associate others with Allah in His Divinity seeks asylum, grant him asylum that he may hear the Word of Allah, and then escort him to safety for they are a people who do not know.

That is, "lf during a fight, an enemy makes a request that he should be given an opportunity to understand Islam, the Muslims should give him a surety of protection and allow him to visit them. They should then present Islam before him in order to make him understand it. If, after this, he dces not embrace Islam, they should convey him safely to his place" . Such a person who comes to Dar-ul-Islam under the above mentioned protection is called musta'min in the Islamic Code. - Abul A'ala Maududi, Tafhim al-Qur'an​