Protests against AZ's immigration law turn violent.

[Foxfyre]

Giving Vast LWC props here for keeping it civil despite being considerably outnumbered here. (I've been there and it is tough keeping up with a dozen different angles--all opposed to yours--coming at you all at once.)

Seriously, I do see where you are coming from Vast, and I appreciate that you are opposed to what looks to you like an evolving police state with unlimited powers.

What you are leaving out of the equation, however, is that there is no other way, at least that anybody has presented, to protect and secure the rights of Americans citizens and others legally present in Arizona.

When you can offer a practical alternative to this much more powerful law enforcement tool the Arizona legislature has just overwhelmingly passed, I'm sure they would like to hear from you.

I can't think of any other way to deal with the problem that won't make it much, much worse. I think that is why even most of the Hispanic members of the legislature voted 'aye' for this bill.

I do see your point here. I just feel that we should err on the side of protecting individual civil liberties when instituting this sort of policy.

And I think this sort of policy is necessary to protect individual civil liberties.

And that makes for a good debate.

 

[Vast LWC]

Well then that's a different LAW altogether now isn't it?

And I'd venture to say this would be the case no matter what State your test subject 'Jose' resided in. So please continue to dazzle us with your dullness.

It is a different law, and the officer would have to have sufficient proof that the person's ID was in fact fake in order to arrest him.

It's called "innocence until guilt is proven". It's a little-known concept in American Justice. Perhaps you've heard of it?

 

[The T]

Im all for the demonstrations. We should all show how we feel regarding incompetent legislation.

Many companies nationally are boycotting Arizona because they fear attendees could be harassed. That means Arizona is missing out on millions of dollars of revenue. That alone is a sign that SB 1070 is not an acceptable law.

I know, I know, who cares what they think, right?

Oh really? Since when is safeguarding the Right to Life Liberty and property of it's citizens NOT the first priority of government. Arizona did what they had to do for just that proposition on behalf of their citizens.

I guess the Arizona legislature is more concerned with principle over Dollar signs? Well color me surprised to read something such as this. [NOT].

Perhaps there are larger things to life than money. Unnacceptable LAW? Really gracie? To whom?

 

[The T]

Well then that's a different LAW altogether now isn't it?

And I'd venture to say this would be the case no matter what State your test subject 'Jose' resided in. So please continue to dazzle us with your dullness.

It is a different law, and the officer would have to have sufficient proof that the person's ID was in fact fake in order to arrest him.

Really? Say it ain't so?! [Didn't *I* say that]?

It's called "innocence until guilt is proven". It's a little-known concept in American Justice. Perhaps you've heard of it?

Thus they are detained under law. is this really a hard concept for you? it's really a deflection topic on your part. It happens country wide, and a moot point.

 

[Vast LWC]

Oh really? Since when is safeguarding the Right to Life Liberty and property of it's citizens NOT the first priority of government. Arizona did what they had to do for just that proposition on behalf of their citizens.

Well then I guess you were a major supporter of the Health Care bill then, right? Big supporter of the "General Welfare" clause and all that?

LOL.

I guess the Arizona legislature is more concerned with principle over Dollar signs? Well color me surprised to read something such as this. [NOT].

Perhaps there are larger things to life than money. Unnacceptable LAW? Really gracie? To whom?

Of course the differences between this and the health care bill are: 1. The Health Care bill doesn't cause anyone to be arrested, 2. The health care bill doesn't discriminate based on race, and 3. The health care bill will most certainly save millions upon millions of lives in the long run, while this legislation will not.

 

[Vast LWC]

Really? Say it ain't so?! [Didn't *I* say that]?

Yes, T, you DID say that, but you didn't apply what you said to the legislation at hand.

This bill MAKES IT A CRIME (punishable by a $1000.00) fine to NOT ARREST PEOPLE that are suspicious.

Do you not see the difference here?

It's called "innocence until guilt is proven". It's a little-known concept in American Justice. Perhaps you've heard of it?

Thus they are detained under law. is this really a hard concept for you? it's really a deflection topic on your part. It happens country wide, and a moot point.

They are ARRESTED, not detained. That is the specific language of the bill. I'm not even sure where you guys got "Detained" from in the first place.

 

[The T]

Really? Say it ain't so?! [Didn't *I* say that]?

Yes, T, you DID say that, but you didn't apply what you said to the legislation at hand.

This bill MAKES IT A CRIME (punishable by a $1000.00) fine to NOT ARREST PEOPLE that are suspicious.

Do you not see the difference here?

Indeed I do...and WHY that premise? *IF* you let someone go that isn't supposed to be here, and they go on to commit a crime...whatever that crime *IS* and it's found that the perp was *LET GO* without checking?

Guess who's opened themselves for LAWSUIT? Do you *SEE* the reason here?

It's called "innocence until guilt is proven". It's a little-known concept in American Justice. Perhaps you've heard of it?

Thus they are detained under law. is this really a hard concept for you? it's really a deflection topic on your part. It happens country wide, and a moot point.

They are ARRESTED, not detained. That is the specific language of the bill. I'm not even sure where you guys got "Detained" from in the first place.

What is detention...but ARREST? They are ONE in the same until a decision is made as to whom you are, outstanding warrants, and the rest of it. It is NO different than what happens NOW...is it?

 

[PatekPhilippe]

Well then that's a different LAW altogether now isn't it?

And I'd venture to say this would be the case no matter what State your test subject 'Jose' resided in. So please continue to dazzle us with your dullness.

It is a different law, and the officer would have to have sufficient proof that the person's ID was in fact fake in order to arrest him.

It's called "innocence until guilt is proven". It's a little-known concept in American Justice. Perhaps you've heard of it?

They have this new thing in cop cars....it's called a radio. All they have to do is call in the ID and have it checked...better yet they can just use their computer in the car to check it out.

 

[PatekPhilippe]

Funny how all of a sudden the left no longer trusts the police force or government. They assume that when someone gets a little power that they are just going to run hog wild ... oh...wait a minute...I understand why they think that....look at their examples who have done exactly that...Reid, Pelosi and Obama.

 

[The T]

Well then that's a different LAW altogether now isn't it?

And I'd venture to say this would be the case no matter what State your test subject 'Jose' resided in. So please continue to dazzle us with your dullness.

It is a different law, and the officer would have to have sufficient proof that the person's ID was in fact fake in order to arrest him.

It's called "innocence until guilt is proven". It's a little-known concept in American Justice. Perhaps you've heard of it?

They have this new thing in cop cars....it's called a radio. All they have to do is call in the ID and have it checked...better yet they can just use their computer in the car to check it out.

I can tell you that here in Florida that the FHP has card readers attached to mobile computer terminals that puts them in touch with Local/State/Fed NCIC Data bases.

Results given in a matter of minutes.

 

[The T]

Funny how all of a sudden the left no longer trusts the police force or government. They assume that when someone gets a little power that they are just going to run hog wild ... oh...wait a minute...I understand why they think that....look at their examples who have done exactly that...Reid, Pelosi and Obama.

Their whole premise is 'Racial Profiling', and quite frankly a tired worn-out "Fear Card" they continue to play.

 

[Jaaaman]

Funny how all of a sudden the left no longer trusts the police force or government. They assume that when someone gets a little power that they are just going to run hog wild ... oh...wait a minute...I understand why they think that....look at their examples who have done exactly that...Reid, Pelosi and Obama.

Thank you.

 

[Vast LWC]

Funny how all of a sudden the left no longer trusts the police force or government. They assume that when someone gets a little power that they are just going to run hog wild ... oh...wait a minute...I understand why they think that....look at their examples who have done exactly that...Reid, Pelosi and Obama.

ROFL, it's funny how the far right only feels individual liberties need to be preserved when it's their individual liberties.

 

[PatekPhilippe]

Funny how all of a sudden the left no longer trusts the police force or government. They assume that when someone gets a little power that they are just going to run hog wild ... oh...wait a minute...I understand why they think that....look at their examples who have done exactly that...Reid, Pelosi and Obama.

ROFL, it's funny how the far right only feels individual liberties need to be preserved when it's their individual liberties.

Funny how the left wingers are so afraid of government abuse of power yet advocate increasing the size and scope of power of that same government with ZERO CHECKS AND BALANCES. You clowns are INSANE!!!

 

[PubliusInfinitum]

OK, you do understand that many legal immigrants in Arizona don't speak English very well,

Yep... So what? The law doesn't provide for someone to be arrested because they can't speak english...

I was speaking to Lonestar's assertion that not speaking English would be sufficient suspicion for an arrest.





which was my point. (see above)

Picture this scenario:

I don't like my neighbor Jose, so I call the police and tell them he's an illegal alien, and has fake ID.

Great... What if you don't like your neighbor and you call the cops and tell them that he's a serial killer...

If he is... then they arrest him and take him to jail... if he's not, then they arrest you and take YOU to jail.

The cops would need some sort of further proof that he is a serial killer in order to arrest him.

This law makes it a crime for the cops to NOT arrest the person so reported, punishable by a $1000.00 fine.

Well, no... The law makes it a crime to not arrest a person who is unable to establish their citizenship bona fides; any state ID would get it done... If they're not a citizen, they are required to have a green card other such documentation.

Where there is sufficient and reasonable evidence which provides for the reasonable belief that they are not in the US legally, then they damn well should be arrested...

Those trying to blame Arizona for a problem caused by illegal immigration and it's advocates, is an idiot; without regard to their skin color, heavy accent, dark hair, brown eyes or the lack there of...

But it is HYSTERICAL to watch the Progressives rant on and ON about the predictable results of their long standing regressive policy. They've been advocating for illegal immigration for DECADES; providing unlimited entitlements to illegals; and now want to feign hysterical OUTRAGE that the states who been saddled with the budget busting, culture killing tab for those tender feelings are FINALLY DETERMINED TO ENFORCE THE DAMN LAW!

Even MORE hilarious when it's a Progressive governor doing so, in a last ditch attempt to gain some political momentum, long since lost due to the inaction which has resulted in THOUSANDS of kidnappings, murders, assualts, rapes, thefts, home-invasions and other general thuggeries...

 

[tigerbob]

I have driven passed a teabag rally, no violence just people holding signs and quiet, I have also driven near where the G8 summit was held in Pittsburg. Seriously I would rather live around "teabaggers" then live around these people that go to these leftist rallies. I guess broken windows and destruction of private property and holding up traffic is not violent to you, But it sure pisses me off.

Yes, you would be guessing. I'll clarify so you don't have to guess. I consider violence generally speaking to be against the person (though to an extent it's a grey area). Holding up traffic is clearly not violent. Breaking windows and destroying property are criminal offenses.

ok so if you follow your argument to the logical conclusion That rally was filled by a bunch of criminals. I saw J walking (a criminal offense) shouting and yelling disturbing the piece, people pushing down constuction blocks and signs, all these are criminal offenses not to mention littering. and assaulting police officers and obstruction of traffic flow.

So because of the law that just passed in Arizona they could have put a net around all of them and subjected them to the new law. Sounds good to me.

I find it interesting that when someone says "following that to the logical conclusion" they often go on to post a pointless logical conclusion.

 

[PubliusInfinitum]

Funny how all of a sudden the left no longer trusts the police force or government. They assume that when someone gets a little power that they are just going to run hog wild ... oh...wait a minute...I understand why they think that....look at their examples who have done exactly that...Reid, Pelosi and Obama.

ROFL, it's funny how the far right only feels individual liberties need to be preserved when it's their individual liberties.

Bad news here... There're no RIGHTS to be in the US illegally; sucking down entitlments TO WHICH THERE ARE ALSO NO RIGHTS...

The best part about this whole thing, is that the hispanic illegals who've drawn SO MUCH SYMPATHY, aren't qualified to hold the DIRTY JOCKS of the tens of millions of immigrants who've come before them... Including their predecessor hispanic immigrants, who came here and didn't take a damn dime from anyone, never asked for anything; paid their own way...

While this batch is being KICKED TO THE ARIZONA CURB, PURELY because they've made such a damn nuisance of themselves.

ROFLMNAO....


LOOOOoooooooooosers...

 

[tigerbob]

And as long as the 'probable cause' is followed, that illegal will have to commit some infraction or behave suspiciously enough to attract an officer's attention and interest.

No, that is untrue, because pursuant to this:

E. A Law Enforcement Officer, without a Warrant, may arrest a person if the officer has probable cause to believe that the person has committed any public offense that makes a person removable from the United States.

The only crime the person would have to be suspected of committing is being in the country illegally, which would qualify as a "public offense that makes a person removable from the United States".

For example, our small business provides insurance services including, among other things, value and safety inspections of insured properties. And among those properties we inspect are a lot of restaurants.

When there was at least a reasonable attempt to arrest and deport illegals, sometimes we could enter the cook line area with our camera, and folks would stampede out of range of that camera. We knew most of those would be illegals who didn't want to be caught on film and they didn't know if we were INS or what.

Then during the 'don't ask - don't tell' era of illegal immigration, those same folks would pose with big smiles next to their deep fryer or whatever. They had no fear.

Well, I'm guessing in Arizona they'll be scampering out of range of any cameras again now. People with a clear conscience don't worry when a cop comes around. Everybody who turns around before they get to a checkpoint or who try to hurriedly vacate the premises if a cop shows up can be stopped. And if they produce suspicious ID, should they not be detained until their identify is confirmed?

Again, what possible objection could you have to that?

I'm sorry, but that second to last paragraph is exactly what the Nazis used to say in their propaganda productions.

To be clear, I'm not calling you a Nazi, and I don't mean to imply that you are in any way a Nazi, but you just essentially said:

"If you're not guilty than you don't have anything to worry about. Only the guilty will be arrested."

I've seen a propaganda video from WWII Germany that said almost those exact same words, I'll see if I can find it.

Jeez, not another "the nazis said the same thing" defense.

 

[Harry Dresden]

So because they were "violent", does that mean the right is off the hook?

And do you know for a fact these people claim to be in any political party? It looks to me, that a certain ethnic group, NOT politcal party is protesting here.

Really....I am quite liberal and I am very much for controlling our borders and sending the illegals home.

well then your not as liberal as you think Bo.....Rdean would be appalled at you....and he is my measuring stick....

 

[Harry Dresden]

Anyone have an article on what the violence you claimed happened.

I see no one hitting anyone?

what exactly is the violence??????

some Mexican whipped out his Chonie and pissed on an Arizonian....that good enough for ya?....