Protests against AZ's immigration law turn violent.

[Vast LWC]

Why? If I can't produce a driver's license at a checkpoint or when a cop stops me for a traffic violation, should he not detain me until he can verify that I am who I say I am and that I actually do have a license to drive? What possible objection could you have to that?

The difference being that you would be operating a vehicle without a license to do so.

The Police are not detaining you due to your lack of identification, they are arresting you for driving without a license.

 

[Wicked Jester]

What "draconian laws" vast?

Are you speaking of the law to identify CRIMINALS who broke the law?

I'm speaking of laws that allow officers to detain anyone that isn't carrying ID.

That is draconian on the level of Stalin's USSR.

How so?

Many people with warrants don't show ID. They are detained until identified. If there is a warrant or they are suspected of breaking the law. they get arrested. No difference in law whatsoever.

If they are here legally, they've got nothing to worry about. If they BROKE THE LAW by coming here illegally, they should be arrested and deported forthwit!

So, how would you feel if some cop let somebody go who wasn't carrying ID, and that person commited a terrorist act. Or what if that person molested children and was wanted, but the cop wasn't diligent enough in finding out who the person who wasn't carrying ID really was?

Draconian law?

That's just loony liberal drivel, vast.

LMAO!

 

[beowolfe]

So because they were "violent", does that mean the right is off the hook?

And do you know for a fact these people claim to be in any political party? It looks to me, that a certain ethnic group, NOT politcal party is protesting here.

That ethnic group voted primarily for Obama in the last election.
It kind of reminds me how the left has labeled the Tea Party, see the irony?

That same ethnic group voted for Dubya when he was running. So, is your point that they must be independents?

 

[Vast LWC]

How so?

Many people with warrants don't show ID. They are detained until identified. If there is a warrant or they are suspected of breaking the law. they get arrested. No difference in law whatsoever.

If they are here legally, they've got nothing to worry about. If they BROKE THE LAW by coming here illegally, they should be arrested and deported forthwit!

So, how would you feel if some cop let somebody go who wasn't carrying ID, and that person commited a terrorist act. Or what if that person molested children and was wanted, but the cop wasn't diligent enough in finding out who the person who wasn't carrying ID really was?

Draconian law?

That's just loony liberal drivel, vast.

LMAO!

You're talking about people being observed in the commission of a crime. In this case the only "observation" would be that their skin is brown.

And it's not "liberal" drivel, it's Libertarian drivel.

I'm not a Libertarian, but my resentment against this crap is a Libertarian ideal.

 

[Vast LWC]

Look, even TOM TANCREDO came out with a statement against this bill, and he's the most radical anti-immigration guy I can think of on the national stage.

If Tancredo is against it, there's got to be something wrong with it, don't you think?

 

[Wicked Jester]

How so?

Many people with warrants don't show ID. They are detained until identified. If there is a warrant or they are suspected of breaking the law. they get arrested. No difference in law whatsoever.

If they are here legally, they've got nothing to worry about. If they BROKE THE LAW by coming here illegally, they should be arrested and deported forthwit!

So, how would you feel if some cop let somebody go who wasn't carrying ID, and that person commited a terrorist act. Or what if that person molested children and was wanted, but the cop wasn't diligent enough in finding out who the person who wasn't carrying ID really was?

Draconian law?

That's just loony liberal drivel, vast.

LMAO!

You're talking about people being observed in the commission of a crime. In this case the only "observation" would be that their skin is brown.

And it's not "liberal" drivel, it's Libertarian drivel.

I'm not a Libertarian, but my resentment against this crap is a Libertarian ideal.

Oh, so I guess only "brown people" are going to be pulled over and asked to show ID in Arizona?

That's just too fucking funny!

So, in your view, some "brown person" is caught speeding, he can't produce ID so he should just be let go because we wouldn't want to offend the poor lil' "brown people". And god forbid he's a LAW BREAKER who is a CRIMINAL and entered this country and resides here ILLEGALLY.

Fuck it!....lets just do away with ALL laws. That way, you won't have to worry about presenting ID.

 

[Foxfyre]

Why? If I can't produce a driver's license at a checkpoint or when a cop stops me for a traffic violation, should he not detain me until he can verify that I am who I say I am and that I actually do have a license to drive? What possible objection could you have to that?

The difference being that you would be operating a vehicle without a license to do so.

The Police are not detaining you due to your lack of identification, they are arresting you for driving without a license.

Of course he is detaining me for lack of identification. If I have a license, I won't be detained any longer than it takes to issue a ticket or give me a warning. But if I have no license or other positive identification, he would be negligent in his duty to not verify who I was and why I was driving without a license. Otherwise I could give him any name, any address.

The same if I'm stopped for jay walking or shop lifting or am stopped in a restricted area. If we limit the police department to simply take somebody's word for who they are when they are stopped in illegal or suspicious circumstances, we will have essentially no law enforcement at all.

The only change in the Arizona law is that law enforcement personnel can now determine and detain people who are here illegally. That is something we should have been doing all along and Arizona should be applauded for it, not criticizied or condemned.

 

[woodjack]

I refer you to my previous post.



To which I will add that whoever threw the water bottle should be arrested.

I have driven passed a teabag rally, no violence just people holding signs and quiet, I have also driven near where the G8 summit was held in Pittsburg. Seriously I would rather live around "teabaggers" then live around these people that go to these leftist rallies. I guess broken windows and destruction of private property and holding up traffic is not violent to you, But it sure pisses me off.

Yes, you would be guessing. I'll clarify so you don't have to guess. I consider violence generally speaking to be against the person (though to an extent it's a grey area). Holding up traffic is clearly not violent. Breaking windows and destroying property are criminal offenses.

ok so if you follow your argument to the logical conclusion That rally was filled by a bunch of criminals. I saw J walking (a criminal offense) shouting and yelling disturbing the piece, people pushing down constuction blocks and signs, all these are criminal offenses not to mention littering. and assaulting police officers and obstruction of traffic flow.

So because of the law that just passed in Arizona they could have put a net around all of them and subjected them to the new law. Sounds good to me.

 

[The T]

The stories out right now are talking about MEXICAN rioters.

And, OK, let's accept your premise.

When did all Mexican-Americans become Liberals???

Who said all? I just said the peace loving liberals. Having said that, didn't the majority of the Hispanics vote for Obama?

I have no clue, to tell you the truth. Would that mean that all the Hispanic folks in Arizona are Liberals if they did?

Didn't the majority of voters in Arizona vote for McCain?

Would Hispanic Libertarians not be upset about draconian immigration laws that directly affected them and their families?

Typical Statist drivel. Parsing folks into groups like a good little stupid liberal nutburger that you are.

Hate to break it to you, but the LAW in AZ applies equally to ALL that are checked out for routine police stops etc...regardless of what they look like.

You ASSUME too much...but seeing it's you? It's expected.

 

[Vast LWC]

Oh, so I guess only "brown people" are going to be pulled over and asked to show ID in Arizona?

That's just too fucking funny!

So, in your view, some "brown person" is caught speeding, he can't produce ID so he should just be let go because we wouldn't want to offend the poor lil' "brown people". And god forbid he's a LAW BREAKER who is a CRIMINAL and entered this country and resides here ILLEGALLY.

Fuck it!....lets just do away with ALL laws. That way, you won't have to worry about presenting ID.

Yeah... no.

No-one mentioned anything about "driving" in the bill. If a person is pulled over, while driving, and they do not have their driver's license, then they are specifically guilty of the crime of driving without a license, and can be arrested for that.


Here is the actual text of the bill that pertains to our conversation:

E. A Law Enforcement Officer, without a Warrant, may arrest a person if the officer has probable cause to believe that the person has committed any public offense that makes a person removable from the United States.

That means, if a police officer suspects a person might be an illegal alien (which is an offense that makes a person removable from the US) than they can arrest them, at will, without a warrant.

http://www.azleg.gov/legtext/49leg/2r/bills/sb1070s.pdf

 

[Lonestar_logic]

How so?

Many people with warrants don't show ID. They are detained until identified. If there is a warrant or they are suspected of breaking the law. they get arrested. No difference in law whatsoever.

If they are here legally, they've got nothing to worry about. If they BROKE THE LAW by coming here illegally, they should be arrested and deported forthwit!

So, how would you feel if some cop let somebody go who wasn't carrying ID, and that person commited a terrorist act. Or what if that person molested children and was wanted, but the cop wasn't diligent enough in finding out who the person who wasn't carrying ID really was?

Draconian law?

That's just loony liberal drivel, vast.

LMAO!

You're talking about people being observed in the commission of a crime. In this case the only "observation" would be that their skin is brown.

And it's not "liberal" drivel, it's Libertarian drivel.

I'm not a Libertarian, but my resentment against this crap is a Libertarian ideal.

You're assuming facts not in evidence. Fact is this law has been enforced in the city of Phopenix for the past two years. An dno one has protested or claimed civil rights violations. They used Phoenix as a test case and it had dramatic effect of the level of decreased crime in the city, so they decided to make it statewide.

Have you read SB 1070?

 

[Vast LWC]

Typical Statist drivel. Parsing folks into groups like a good little stupid liberal nutburger that you are.

Hate to break it to you, but the LAW in AZ applies equally to ALL that are checked out for routine police stops etc...regardless of what they look like.

You ASSUME too much...but seeing it's you? It's expected.

Wow, now there's some serious hypocrisy.

THIS THREAD was "parsing folks into groups", not I. I was saying that the statement I made was not necessarily representative of "Liberals", as was stated by he poster I was responding to.

Apparently you need a course in reading comprehension.

And how exactly do you figure that AZ Police would arrest anyone but an Hispanic person on suspicion of being an illegal alien?

Do you feel that there's a lot of Swedish illegal immigrants in Arizona?

 

[The T]

How so?

Many people with warrants don't show ID. They are detained until identified. If there is a warrant or they are suspected of breaking the law. they get arrested. No difference in law whatsoever.

If they are here legally, they've got nothing to worry about. If they BROKE THE LAW by coming here illegally, they should be arrested and deported forthwit!

So, how would you feel if some cop let somebody go who wasn't carrying ID, and that person commited a terrorist act. Or what if that person molested children and was wanted, but the cop wasn't diligent enough in finding out who the person who wasn't carrying ID really was?

Draconian law?

That's just loony liberal drivel, vast.

LMAO!

You're talking about people being observed in the commission of a crime. In this case the only "observation" would be that their skin is brown.

And it's not "liberal" drivel, it's Libertarian drivel.

I'm not a Libertarian, but my resentment against this crap is a Libertarian ideal.

Oh, so I guess only "brown people" are going to be pulled over and asked to show ID in Arizona?

That's just too fucking funny!

So, in your view, some "brown person" is caught speeding, he can't produce ID so he should just be let go because we wouldn't want to offend the poor lil' "brown people". And god forbid he's a LAW BREAKER who is a CRIMINAL and entered this country and resides here ILLEGALLY.

Fuck it!....lets just do away with ALL laws. That way, you won't have to worry about presenting ID.

It is astounding. What this law does is exactly doing what LAW is already on the FED Books. it's just the FEDS aren't doing it. It forces the AZ cops to do the Job the FED isn't doing. And I think the FEDS should be applauding AND paying the AZ cops for doing the FED's Job.

 

[The T]

Typical Statist drivel. Parsing folks into groups like a good little stupid liberal nutburger that you are.

Hate to break it to you, but the LAW in AZ applies equally to ALL that are checked out for routine police stops etc...regardless of what they look like.

You ASSUME too much...but seeing it's you? It's expected.

Wow, now there's some serious hypocrisy.

THIS THREAD was "parsing folks into groups", not I. I was saying that the statement I made was not necessarily representative of "Liberals", as was stated by he poster I was responding to.

Apparently you need a course in reading comprehension.

And how exactly do you figure that AZ Police would arrest anyone but an Hispanic person on suspicion of being an illegal alien?

Do you feel that there's a lot of Swedish illegal immigrants in Arizona?

Really? What are "Hispanic Libertarians"? Why must you parse them by RACE gracie? And YES you are parsing like a good little Liberal nutburger, as I stated.

 

[Vast LWC]

You're assuming facts not in evidence. Fact is this law has been enforced in the city of Phopenix for the past two years. An dno one has protested or claimed civil rights violations. They used Phoenix as a test case and it had dramatic effect of the level of decreased crime in the city, so they decided to make it statewide.

Have you read SB 1070?

Ahh, but, you see, I"m not "assuming" anything, because I in fact HAVE read SB 1070. It was kindly linked for me in another thread. And I found that it contained the following provision:

E. A Law Enforcement Officer, without a Warrant, may arrest a person if the officer has probable cause to believe that the person has committed any public offense that makes a person removable from the United States.

Remember, I don't watch the talking heads. I read up on the subject myself.

 

[Lonestar_logic]

Oh, so I guess only "brown people" are going to be pulled over and asked to show ID in Arizona?

That's just too fucking funny!

So, in your view, some "brown person" is caught speeding, he can't produce ID so he should just be let go because we wouldn't want to offend the poor lil' "brown people". And god forbid he's a LAW BREAKER who is a CRIMINAL and entered this country and resides here ILLEGALLY.

Fuck it!....lets just do away with ALL laws. That way, you won't have to worry about presenting ID.

Yeah... no.

No-one mentioned anything about "driving" in the bill. If a person is pulled over, while driving, and they do not have their driver's license, then they are specifically guilty of the crime of driving without a license, and can be arrested for that.


Here is the actual text of the bill that pertains to our conversation:

E. A Law Enforcement Officer, without a Warrant, may arrest a person if the officer has probable cause to believe that the person has committed any public offense that makes a person removable from the United States.

That means, if a police officer suspects a person might be an illegal alien (which is an offense that makes a person removable from the US) than they can arrest them, at will, without a warrant.

http://www.azleg.gov/legtext/49leg/2r/bills/sb1070s.pdf

That means if the person commits any public offense that gives the officer probable cause to boot his illegal ass out of the country.

Tell me why do you want open borders? Why are you dead set against enforcing our immigration laws?

 

[Wicked Jester]

Oh, so I guess only "brown people" are going to be pulled over and asked to show ID in Arizona?

That's just too fucking funny!

So, in your view, some "brown person" is caught speeding, he can't produce ID so he should just be let go because we wouldn't want to offend the poor lil' "brown people". And god forbid he's a LAW BREAKER who is a CRIMINAL and entered this country and resides here ILLEGALLY.

Fuck it!....lets just do away with ALL laws. That way, you won't have to worry about presenting ID.

Yeah... no.

No-one mentioned anything about "driving" in the bill. If a person is pulled over, while driving, and they do not have their driver's license, then they are specifically guilty of the crime of driving without a license, and can be arrested for that.


Here is the actual text of the bill that pertains to our conversation:

E. A Law Enforcement Officer, without a Warrant, may arrest a person if the officer has probable cause to believe that the person has committed any public offense that makes a person removable from the United States.

That means, if a police officer suspects a person might be an illegal alien (which is an offense that makes a person removable from the US) than they can arrest them, at will, without a warrant.

http://www.azleg.gov/legtext/49leg/2r/bills/sb1070s.pdf

Is a warrant necessary to arrest somebody for driving on a suspended license?

Nooooooooo!

Is a warrant necessary to arrest somebody who just shot somebody in the fucking head?

Noooooooo!

Do you really think that with all the crime going on in Arizona, mostly as a result of MEXICAN drug cartels and MEXICAN illegal aliens, that the cops are going to actually have time to just check people willy nilly for immigration violations?

Of course not.

But, if you get pulled over or are suspectred of commiting a crime, they have every right to check that person out thoroughly. And if it's found that they are here illegally, they should be deported forthwit!

It's time this great country starts looking after it's own CITIZENS. Fuck those who are here as LAWBREAKERS!

 

[Foxfyre]

Oh, so I guess only "brown people" are going to be pulled over and asked to show ID in Arizona?

That's just too fucking funny!

So, in your view, some "brown person" is caught speeding, he can't produce ID so he should just be let go because we wouldn't want to offend the poor lil' "brown people". And god forbid he's a LAW BREAKER who is a CRIMINAL and entered this country and resides here ILLEGALLY.

Fuck it!....lets just do away with ALL laws. That way, you won't have to worry about presenting ID.

Yeah... no.

No-one mentioned anything about "driving" in the bill. If a person is pulled over, while driving, and they do not have their driver's license, then they are specifically guilty of the crime of driving without a license, and can be arrested for that.


Here is the actual text of the bill that pertains to our conversation:

E. A Law Enforcement Officer, without a Warrant, may arrest a person if the officer has probable cause to believe that the person has committed any public offense that makes a person removable from the United States.

That means, if a police officer suspects a person might be an illegal alien (which is an offense that makes a person removable from the US) than they can arrest them, at will, without a warrant.

http://www.azleg.gov/legtext/49leg/2r/bills/sb1070s.pdf

And as long as the 'probable cause' is followed, that illegal will have to commit some infraction or behave suspiciously enough to attract an officer's attention and interest.

For example, our small business provides insurance services including, among other things, value and safety inspections of insured properties. And among those properties we inspect are a lot of restaurants.

When there was at least a reasonable attempt to arrest and deport illegals, sometimes we could enter the cook line area with our camera, and folks would stampede out of range of that camera. We knew most of those would be illegals who didn't want to be caught on film and they didn't know if we were INS or what.

Then during the 'don't ask - don't tell' era of illegal immigration, those same folks would pose with big smiles next to their deep fryer or whatever. They had no fear.

Well, I'm guessing in Arizona they'll be scampering out of range of any cameras again now. People with a clear conscience don't worry when a cop comes around. Everybody who turns around before they get to a checkpoint or who try to hurriedly vacate the premises if a cop shows up can be stopped. And if they produce suspicious ID, should they not be detained until their identify is confirmed?

Again, what possible objection could you have to that?

 

[Lonestar_logic]

Typical Statist drivel. Parsing folks into groups like a good little stupid liberal nutburger that you are.

Hate to break it to you, but the LAW in AZ applies equally to ALL that are checked out for routine police stops etc...regardless of what they look like.

You ASSUME too much...but seeing it's you? It's expected.

Wow, now there's some serious hypocrisy.

THIS THREAD was "parsing folks into groups", not I. I was saying that the statement I made was not necessarily representative of "Liberals", as was stated by he poster I was responding to.

Apparently you need a course in reading comprehension.

And how exactly do you figure that AZ Police would arrest anyone but an Hispanic person on suspicion of being an illegal alien?

Do you feel that there's a lot of Swedish illegal immigrants in Arizona?

A police offoicer can tell in about five seconds if a person is a natural born citizen or not.
If a Mexcian cannot comprehend English well chances are he's/she's not a natural born citizen, if the person has no ID or "green" card then further investigation is needed to detemine his or her legal status. Why would you object to that?

 

[Vast LWC]

And, in addition to this provision, they added this in, to make sure that police arrested everyone they could:

A. No official or agency of this state or a county, city, town or other political subdivision of this state may adopt a policy that limits or restricts the enforcement of immigration laws to less than the full extent permitted by Federal Law.

and

G. A PERSON MAY BRING AN ACTION IN SUPERIOR COURT TO CHALLENGE ANY
OFFICIAL OR AGENCY OF THIS STATE OR A COUNTY, CITY, TOWN OR OTHER POLITICAL SUBDIVISION OF THIS STATE THAT ADOPTS OR IMPLEMENTS A POLICY THAT LIMITS OR RESTRICTS THE ENFORCEMENT OF FEDERAL IMMIGRATION LAWS TO LESS THAN THE FULL EXTENT PERMITTED BY FEDERAL LAW. IF THERE IS A JUDICIAL FINDING THAT AN ENTITY HAS VIOLATED THIS SECTION, THE COURT SHALL ORDER ANY OF THE FOLLOWING:
1. THAT THE PERSON WHO BROUGHT THE ACTION RECOVER COURT COSTS AND
ATTORNEY FEES.

2. THAT THE ENTITY PAY A CIVIL PENALTY OF NOT LESS THAN ONE THOUSAND
DOLLARS AND NOT MORE THAN FIVE THOUSAND DOLLARS FOR EACH DAY THAT THE POLICY HAS REMAINED IN EFFECT AFTER THE FILING OF AN ACTION PURSUANT TO THIS SECTION

In other words, if a citizen feels that the local town government is not enforcing the policy strongly enough, they can sue said local town.