Question - Citizenship Question for Census

[iceberg]

Justices, Blocking Citizenship Question on Census, Call Trump's Push 'Contrived' | National Law Journal

how was the question actually raised on the proposal? could it be rephrased or better detailed to get this on there?

i hear it will misrepresent minorities and i don't understand how. if you're a citizen, who cares of what background? you did what you needed to do to be here, you get the same benefits we all do at that point. we keep throwing bodies into a crossfire of confusion and i just don't get it.

most stories are beating up trump or calling the "news" news but not really going into detail. i'll dig more as my day allows but would love to hear honest discussion on the question and why it's a "problem" to count citizens.

Remember, we are not just trying to count citizens, but everyone.

Congressional representation is based upon total numbers, not just citizens.

What is the benefit of the citizenship question?

So you want non citizens to determine the direction of states and our country. Of course you do.

how about letting him answer the questions he's asked?

 

[Harpy Eagle]

...

What is the benefit of the citizenship question?

Oh, wait! I knew this one! Um, could it be so we can know how many people here are or are not citizens?

So, what is gained by that knowledge .......?

You don't think it might be important in setting immigration policy and fixing budgets for things like schools and hospitals and adjudication and such?

do non-citizens use things like schools and hospitals and such?

yep. and?

again - why are we putting them in the same category that drives how we elect people when they are simply not part of that process? when i go to ireland next month i'm pretty sure i'll be paying sales tax on food, entertainment, hotel and the like but i'm also pretty sure i'm not allowed to vote.

if there is a country out there that says "wow, you paid some taxes, here have all the benefits of citizenship" please point said country out.

They are not getting all the benefits of citizenship. That is just a strawman. Our Constitution says that everyone that pays taxes is counted towards apportionment of Representative.

If you do not like this, then we have a system in place to change the Constitution.

 

[debbiedowner]

Delaying the census could also spur additional legal challenges, as the Constitution mandates that a census be conducted every 10 years.

 

[Harpy Eagle]

Justices, Blocking Citizenship Question on Census, Call Trump's Push 'Contrived' | National Law Journal

how was the question actually raised on the proposal? could it be rephrased or better detailed to get this on there?

i hear it will misrepresent minorities and i don't understand how. if you're a citizen, who cares of what background? you did what you needed to do to be here, you get the same benefits we all do at that point. we keep throwing bodies into a crossfire of confusion and i just don't get it.

most stories are beating up trump or calling the "news" news but not really going into detail. i'll dig more as my day allows but would love to hear honest discussion on the question and why it's a "problem" to count citizens.

Remember, we are not just trying to count citizens, but everyone.

Congressional representation is based upon total numbers, not just citizens.

What is the benefit of the citizenship question?

So you want non citizens to determine the direction of states and our country. Of course you do.

How are they determining the direction of states and our country?

Also, the Constitution says that everyone that pays taxes is counted towards apportionment of Representative.

If you do not like this, then we have a system in place to change the Constitution.

 

[OldLady]

Justices, Blocking Citizenship Question on Census, Call Trump's Push 'Contrived' | National Law Journal

how was the question actually raised on the proposal? could it be rephrased or better detailed to get this on there?

i hear it will misrepresent minorities and i don't understand how. if you're a citizen, who cares of what background? you did what you needed to do to be here, you get the same benefits we all do at that point. we keep throwing bodies into a crossfire of confusion and i just don't get it.

most stories are beating up trump or calling the "news" news but not really going into detail. i'll dig more as my day allows but would love to hear honest discussion on the question and why it's a "problem" to count citizens.

The purpose of the census is to get an accurate count of the TOTAL population according to the Constitution.

And the Constitution also says, from that TOTAL population of citizens, legal and illegal immigrants, our US Representatives are allotted.... I think it is 1 congressman for about every 750,000 residents... And also many federal funds are distributed to the states by TOTAL population.

The citizen question was purposely inserted by Republicans in to the census, so that an INACCURATE count of the population would be obtained, reducing the population count, which would reduce the number of US Congressmen that the Constitution requires them to have....per resident.

This would hurt citizens that live in communities where immigrants are placed by the federal gvt... refugees that are placed by the gvt, and asylum seekers waiting their court hearing s placed in the different states...

ALSO, It hurts citizens because with an inaccurate count, their state will get less funds allotted by population, yet have all the non citizens that they have jurisdiction over, and responsibility to police, and educate etc.... giving the needy citizens less money for them to receive...

You assume no one who is not a citizen would respond. Why wouldn't legal immigrants respond? I'm sure that wanted fugitives from justice don't return the census form either. Barry 'the knuckle' Barowski, the bank robber who escaped from the Barney Frank Correctional Facility last week, probably won't be filling out a census form while sipping tea. They could include a disclaimer for otherwise law-abiding illegal immigrants indicating that the census info won't be shared with ICE or something like that.

It is illegal for the census to share any of its individual information with ICE or anyone else for 70 years. But who is going to trust that with Wilbur Ross in the driver's seat?

 

[iceberg]

Oh, wait! I knew this one! Um, could it be so we can know how many people here are or are not citizens?

So, what is gained by that knowledge .......?

You don't think it might be important in setting immigration policy and fixing budgets for things like schools and hospitals and adjudication and such?

do non-citizens use things like schools and hospitals and such?

yep. and?

again - why are we putting them in the same category that drives how we elect people when they are simply not part of that process? when i go to ireland next month i'm pretty sure i'll be paying sales tax on food, entertainment, hotel and the like but i'm also pretty sure i'm not allowed to vote.

if there is a country out there that says "wow, you paid some taxes, here have all the benefits of citizenship" please point said country out.

They are not getting all the benefits of citizenship. That is just a strawman. Our Constitution says that everyone that pays taxes is counted towards apportionment of Representative.

If you do not like this, then we have a system in place to change the Constitution.

“Representatives shall be apportioned among the several States according to their respective numbers, counting the whole number of persons in each State, excluding Indians not taxed. But when the right to vote at any election for the choice of electors for President and Vice President of the United States, Representatives in Congress, the Executive and Judicial officers of a State, or the members of the Legislature thereof, is denied to any of the male inhabitants of such State, being twenty-one years of age, and citizens of the United States, or in any way abridged, except for participation in rebellion, or other crime, the basis of representation therein shall be reduced in the proportion which the number of such male citizens shall bear to the whole number of male citizens twenty-one years of age in such State.”
— U.S. Constitution, Amendment XIV, section 2

now how do we know if we don't ask?

 

[kyzr]

Trump won't allow a census without that citizenship question, so its keep working at it until its in...

Trump would have to violate the Constitution to stop it. I realize you are cool with that, but you should not be

Not stop it, but postpone it as long as necessary to get it right for US citizens.

 

[TroglocratsRdumb]

Justices, Blocking Citizenship Question on Census, Call Trump's Push 'Contrived' | National Law Journal

how was the question actually raised on the proposal? could it be rephrased or better detailed to get this on there?

i hear it will misrepresent minorities and i don't understand how. if you're a citizen, who cares of what background? you did what you needed to do to be here, you get the same benefits we all do at that point. we keep throwing bodies into a crossfire of confusion and i just don't get it.

most stories are beating up trump or calling the "news" news but not really going into detail. i'll dig more as my day allows but would love to hear honest discussion on the question and why it's a "problem" to count citizens.

Remember, we are not just trying to count citizens, but everyone.

Congressional representation is based upon total numbers, not just citizens.

What is the benefit of the citizenship question?

we need to know who is a citizen and who is not.

 

[iceberg]

Justices, Blocking Citizenship Question on Census, Call Trump's Push 'Contrived' | National Law Journal

how was the question actually raised on the proposal? could it be rephrased or better detailed to get this on there?

i hear it will misrepresent minorities and i don't understand how. if you're a citizen, who cares of what background? you did what you needed to do to be here, you get the same benefits we all do at that point. we keep throwing bodies into a crossfire of confusion and i just don't get it.

most stories are beating up trump or calling the "news" news but not really going into detail. i'll dig more as my day allows but would love to hear honest discussion on the question and why it's a "problem" to count citizens.

Remember, we are not just trying to count citizens, but everyone.

Congressional representation is based upon total numbers, not just citizens.

What is the benefit of the citizenship question?

we need to know who is a citizen and who is not.

as i pointed out - that requirement is in the constitution. if you want to add them to be represented for voting purposes, then change the constitution or show me where this is wrong.

 

[Care4all]

Justices, Blocking Citizenship Question on Census, Call Trump's Push 'Contrived' | National Law Journal

how was the question actually raised on the proposal? could it be rephrased or better detailed to get this on there?

i hear it will misrepresent minorities and i don't understand how. if you're a citizen, who cares of what background? you did what you needed to do to be here, you get the same benefits we all do at that point. we keep throwing bodies into a crossfire of confusion and i just don't get it.

most stories are beating up trump or calling the "news" news but not really going into detail. i'll dig more as my day allows but would love to hear honest discussion on the question and why it's a "problem" to count citizens.

The purpose of the census is to get an accurate count of the TOTAL population according to the Constitution.

And the Constitution also says, from that TOTAL population of citizens, legal and illegal immigrants, our US Representatives are allotted.... I think it is 1 congressman for about every 750,000 residents... And also many federal funds are distributed to the states by TOTAL population.

The citizen question was purposely inserted by Republicans in to the census, so that an INACCURATE count of the population would be obtained, reducing the population count, which would reduce the number of US Congressmen that the Constitution requires them to have....per resident.

This would hurt citizens that live in communities where immigrants are placed by the federal gvt... refugees that are placed by the gvt, and asylum seekers waiting their court hearing s placed in the different states...

ALSO, It hurts citizens because with an inaccurate count, their state will get less funds allotted by population, yet have all the non citizens that they have jurisdiction over, and responsibility to police, and educate etc.... giving the needy citizens less money for them to receive...

You assume no one who is not a citizen would respond. Why wouldn't legal immigrants respond? I'm sure that wanted fugitives from justice don't return the census form either. Barry 'the knuckle' Barowski, the bank robber who escaped from the Barney Frank Correctional Facility last week, probably won't be filling out a census form while sipping tea. They could include a disclaimer for otherwise law-abiding illegal immigrants indicating that the census info won't be shared with ICE or something like that.

What is your purpose? If it does not separate the number of illegals from legal immigrants, why bother with the question?

 

[OldLady]

Justices, Blocking Citizenship Question on Census, Call Trump's Push 'Contrived' | National Law Journal

how was the question actually raised on the proposal? could it be rephrased or better detailed to get this on there?

i hear it will misrepresent minorities and i don't understand how. if you're a citizen, who cares of what background? you did what you needed to do to be here, you get the same benefits we all do at that point. we keep throwing bodies into a crossfire of confusion and i just don't get it.

most stories are beating up trump or calling the "news" news but not really going into detail. i'll dig more as my day allows but would love to hear honest discussion on the question and why it's a "problem" to count citizens.

Remember, we are not just trying to count citizens, but everyone.

Congressional representation is based upon total numbers, not just citizens.

What is the benefit of the citizenship question?

So you want non citizens to determine the direction of states and our country. Of course you do.

For the millionth time, non citizens do not vote. If people who do not vote are determining the direction of states and our country, there is something wrong with that state or our country. Look to yourself.

 

[Billy_Kinetta]

As I said, legally malleable.

Which is code for "I do not like this law so I am good with my side ignoring it" .

No, it's code for "there is no such thing as 'settled law' and all can be revisited and modified within the mandates of the Constitution.

then get Congress to modify it. But do not cheer when it is ignored.

You were the one who brought up "ignoring it", not I.

That is what you are suggesting your savior in the White House do. Ignore the date set by Fed Law.

Please post where I suggested that.

 

[Harpy Eagle]

So, what is gained by that knowledge .......?

You don't think it might be important in setting immigration policy and fixing budgets for things like schools and hospitals and adjudication and such?

do non-citizens use things like schools and hospitals and such?

yep. and?

again - why are we putting them in the same category that drives how we elect people when they are simply not part of that process? when i go to ireland next month i'm pretty sure i'll be paying sales tax on food, entertainment, hotel and the like but i'm also pretty sure i'm not allowed to vote.

if there is a country out there that says "wow, you paid some taxes, here have all the benefits of citizenship" please point said country out.

They are not getting all the benefits of citizenship. That is just a strawman. Our Constitution says that everyone that pays taxes is counted towards apportionment of Representative.

If you do not like this, then we have a system in place to change the Constitution.

“Representatives shall be apportioned among the several States according to their respective numbers, counting the whole number of persons in each State, excluding Indians not taxed. But when the right to vote at any election for the choice of electors for President and Vice President of the United States, Representatives in Congress, the Executive and Judicial officers of a State, or the members of the Legislature thereof, is denied to any of the male inhabitants of such State, being twenty-one years of age, and citizens of the United States, or in any way abridged, except for participation in rebellion, or other crime, the basis of representation therein shall be reduced in the proportion which the number of such male citizens shall bear to the whole number of male citizens twenty-one years of age in such State.”
— U.S. Constitution, Amendment XIV, section 2

now how do we know if we don't ask?

By getting proof of citizenship when they register to vote.

 

[TroglocratsRdumb]

the democrats are cheaters, they are displacing American Voters with illegal aliens

 

[iceberg]

Justices, Blocking Citizenship Question on Census, Call Trump's Push 'Contrived' | National Law Journal

how was the question actually raised on the proposal? could it be rephrased or better detailed to get this on there?

i hear it will misrepresent minorities and i don't understand how. if you're a citizen, who cares of what background? you did what you needed to do to be here, you get the same benefits we all do at that point. we keep throwing bodies into a crossfire of confusion and i just don't get it.

most stories are beating up trump or calling the "news" news but not really going into detail. i'll dig more as my day allows but would love to hear honest discussion on the question and why it's a "problem" to count citizens.

Remember, we are not just trying to count citizens, but everyone.

Congressional representation is based upon total numbers, not just citizens.

What is the benefit of the citizenship question?

So you want non citizens to determine the direction of states and our country. Of course you do.

For the millionth time, non citizens do not vote. If people who do not vote are determining the direction of states and our country, there is something wrong with that state or our country. Look to yourself.

but are they counted to get more EC votes? ie - if we count illegals in such a manner, does CA get +5 EC votes for a population that as you would agree, cannot vote?

 

[Harpy Eagle]

Trump won't allow a census without that citizenship question, so its keep working at it until its in...

Trump would have to violate the Constitution to stop it. I realize you are cool with that, but you should not be

Not stop it, but postpone it as long as necessary to get it right for US citizens.

Fed Law states it must be started by 1 April. Do you want to ignore this law?

 

[iceberg]

You don't think it might be important in setting immigration policy and fixing budgets for things like schools and hospitals and adjudication and such?

do non-citizens use things like schools and hospitals and such?

yep. and?

again - why are we putting them in the same category that drives how we elect people when they are simply not part of that process? when i go to ireland next month i'm pretty sure i'll be paying sales tax on food, entertainment, hotel and the like but i'm also pretty sure i'm not allowed to vote.

if there is a country out there that says "wow, you paid some taxes, here have all the benefits of citizenship" please point said country out.

They are not getting all the benefits of citizenship. That is just a strawman. Our Constitution says that everyone that pays taxes is counted towards apportionment of Representative.

If you do not like this, then we have a system in place to change the Constitution.

“Representatives shall be apportioned among the several States according to their respective numbers, counting the whole number of persons in each State, excluding Indians not taxed. But when the right to vote at any election for the choice of electors for President and Vice President of the United States, Representatives in Congress, the Executive and Judicial officers of a State, or the members of the Legislature thereof, is denied to any of the male inhabitants of such State, being twenty-one years of age, and citizens of the United States, or in any way abridged, except for participation in rebellion, or other crime, the basis of representation therein shall be reduced in the proportion which the number of such male citizens shall bear to the whole number of male citizens twenty-one years of age in such State.”
— U.S. Constitution, Amendment XIV, section 2

now how do we know if we don't ask?

By getting proof of citizenship when they register to vote.

but now you're counting them in how many votes a state may get, or what representation they have. again - it's spelled out in the amendment i provided. if they cannot vote for these people/offices, then their being here should not be counted either as a benefit to that state that has them.

 

[Harpy Eagle]

Justices, Blocking Citizenship Question on Census, Call Trump's Push 'Contrived' | National Law Journal

how was the question actually raised on the proposal? could it be rephrased or better detailed to get this on there?

i hear it will misrepresent minorities and i don't understand how. if you're a citizen, who cares of what background? you did what you needed to do to be here, you get the same benefits we all do at that point. we keep throwing bodies into a crossfire of confusion and i just don't get it.

most stories are beating up trump or calling the "news" news but not really going into detail. i'll dig more as my day allows but would love to hear honest discussion on the question and why it's a "problem" to count citizens.

Remember, we are not just trying to count citizens, but everyone.

Congressional representation is based upon total numbers, not just citizens.

What is the benefit of the citizenship question?

we need to know who is a citizen and who is not.

The census does not tell us "who" just how many. The individual data collected from the Census cannot be shared with any other agency.

Only the aggregate data is available. This has withstood many court challenges.

 

[depotoo]

Justices, Blocking Citizenship Question on Census, Call Trump's Push 'Contrived' | National Law Journal

how was the question actually raised on the proposal? could it be rephrased or better detailed to get this on there?

i hear it will misrepresent minorities and i don't understand how. if you're a citizen, who cares of what background? you did what you needed to do to be here, you get the same benefits we all do at that point. we keep throwing bodies into a crossfire of confusion and i just don't get it.

most stories are beating up trump or calling the "news" news but not really going into detail. i'll dig more as my day allows but would love to hear honest discussion on the question and why it's a "problem" to count citizens.

Remember, we are not just trying to count citizens, but everyone.

Congressional representation is based upon total numbers, not just citizens.

What is the benefit of the citizenship question?

So you want non citizens to determine the direction of states and our country. Of course you do.

How are they determining the direction of states and our country?

Also, the Constitution says that everyone that pays taxes is counted towards apportionment of Representative.

If you do not like this, then we have a system in place to change the Constitution.

Do you know how many non citizens don’t pay taxes? Do you know how many do not pay into social security and Medicare?

The following classes of nonimmigrants and nonresident aliens are exempt from U.S. Social Security and Medicare taxes:

• A-visas. Employees of foreign governments, their families, and their servants are exempt on salaries paid to them in their official capacities as foreign government employees.
• D-visas. Crew members of a ship or aircraft may be exempt if the vessel is a foreign vessel and the employer is a foreign employer, or if the services are performed outside of the United States.
  • Crew members of an American vessel or aircraft who perform services within the United States are subject to Social Security and Medicare taxes.
  • Crew members of an American vessel or aircraft who perform services outside the United States are subject to Social Security and Medicare taxes if:
    • the employee signed on the vessel or aircraft in the United States; or
    • the employee signed on the vessel or aircraft outside the United States but the vessel or aircraft touches a U.S. port while he is employed thereon.
• F-visas, J-visas, M-visas, Q-visas. Nonresident alien students, scholars, professors, teachers, trainees, researchers, and other aliens temporarily present in the United States in F-1,J-1,M-1, or Q-1/Q-2 nonimmigrant status are exempt from Social Security / Medicare Taxes on wages paid to them for services performed within the United States as long as such services are allowed by the United States Citizenship and Immigration Services (USCIS) for these nonimmigrant statuses, and such services are performed to carry out the purposes for which they were admitted into the United States.
  • Exempt Employment includes:
    • On-campus student employment up to 20 hours a week (40 hrs during summer vacations)
    • Off-campus student employment allowed by USCIS
    • Practical Training student employment on or off campus
    • On-campus employment as professor, teacher or researcher
  • Limitations on exemption:
    • The exemption does not apply to spouses and children in F-2, J-2, M-2, or Q-3 nonimmigrant status.
    • The exemption does not apply to employment not allowed by USCIS or to employment not closely connected to the purpose for which they were admitted into the United States.
    • The exemption does not apply to nonimmigrants in F-1, J-1, M-1, or Q-1/Q-2 status who change nonimmigrant status to a status which is not exempt or to a special protected status.
    • The exemption does not apply to nonimmigrants in F-1, J-1, M-1, or Q-1/Q-2 status who become resident aliens for tax purposes.
• G-visas. Employees of international organizations are exempt from Social Security/Medicare taxes on wages paid to them for services performed within the United States in their official capacity as employees of such organizations.
  • The exemption does not apply to spouses and children of nonimmigrants in G status who are employed in the United States by anyone other than an international organization.
• H-visas. Certain nonimmigrants in H-2 and H-2A status are exempt from Social Security/Medicare taxes as follows:
  • An H-2 nonimmigrant who is a resident of the Philippines and who performs services in Guam;
  • An H-2A nonimmigrant admitted into the United States temporarily to perform agricultural labor.

The U.S. has signed Totalization Agreements with certain countries, which may affect an alien’s liability for Social Security or Medicare taxes. The complete texts of the Totalization Agreements may be found on the International Agreements page of the Social Security Administration's website.

Wages paid for certain types of services are exempt from Social Security/Medicare taxes. Examples of exempt services include:

• Compensation paid to a duly ordained, commissioned, or licensed minister of a church in the exercise of his ministry.
• Compensation paid to a child under the age of 18 employed by his father or mother if paid under certain conditions.
• Compensation for services performed as a student nurse if paid under certain conditions.

Aliens Employed in the U.S. Social Security Taxes | Internal Revenue Service

And many are not liable for federal taxes either-

Taxation of Nonresident Alien Income
Nonresident aliens are only required to pay income tax on any income that is earned or otherwise realized from a U.S. source. They do not have to pay tax on any foreign-earned income. For example, someone from Germany who owns a business in Germany and another in the U.S. will only be taxed on the income from the latter source. The German business will be ignored. Investment income realized in the U.S. that is not from a U.S. source is usually taxed at the rate of 30%, unless otherwise specified by treaty. Spouses of nonresident aliens can also opt to claim them as dependents in some cases instead of filing a joint return. Nonresident aliens must also keep careful records to show the sources of all of their income so that the IRS can clearly see what should be taxed and what is exempt.


foreign earned income exclusionand/or the foreign tax credit if they qualify. However, resident aliens who work for a foreign government in the U.S. may be able to claim an exemption on their wages if the U.S. has a reciprocal tax treaty with the employing government.


green card or meet the residence test. This test requires that the alien taxpayer reside in the U.S. for at least 31 days during the year, and must have been in the U.S. for at least 183 days of the past three years (including the current year). However, the residence test only counts a day of residence in the U.S. as a full day of residence for the purpose of this test for the current year. A day of residence only counts as one-third of a day of residence in the previous year and one-sixth of a day in the year before. Therefore, the total number of days of residence during the previous two years must be divided by either three or six before being totaled, and this final total must equal at least 183.


taxable income.

• Commute from Canada/Mexico - Those who commute from Canada or Mexico to the U.S. on a regular basis cannot count commuting days as days of residence for the purpose of the residence test.
• Tax Home - Aliens who can prove that they had a tax home in another country during the year and were not in the U.S. for 183 days during the year are usually not required to pay taxes in the U.S. even if they meet the standard residence test described above. In this case, a tax home is usually considered to be either the principal place of business or the primary residence of the person in question. Those in this category are exempt from U.S. taxation, even if they have a residence within the country. Aliens who wish to claim this exemption must file Form 8840 with the IRS. (For more, see How International Tax Rates Impact Your Investments.)
• Exempt Person – Those who must temporarily reside within the U.S. for certain reasons can claim an exemption for the days spent stateside by filing Form 8843. Those who are eligible to claim this exemption include:
  -Teachers
  -Trainees
  -Students
  -Person related to a foreign government - one with diplomatic or consular status or is an employee of an international organization (or is an immediate family member of either party).
  -Professional athletes

• Medical Exception – Anyone who is involuntarily detained in the U.S. due to medical reasons can claim a medical exemption. For example, a foreign tourist who suffers a heart attack while in the U.S. and is hospitalized for three months can file Form 8843 and list the days spent here for medical reasons under this exemption.
• Tax Treaty Exception – The residence test does not override any definition of residence as specified in a tax treaty. A treaty with another country may exempt you from being classified as a resident even if an alien otherwise meets the residence test. (For related information, see Taking A Look at Tax Havens.)

Dual Tax Status
Aliens who receive their green cards during the year will have to file a dual-status return, because they are considered nonresident aliens before they got their card and resident aliens afterward. Their status changes on the day that they receive the green card. Those in this category must include a statement that breaks down all income received as a resident versus a nonresident.

Tax Rules for Resident and Nonresident Aliens

Yet you want them to be counted.

 

[Harpy Eagle]

do non-citizens use things like schools and hospitals and such?

yep. and?

again - why are we putting them in the same category that drives how we elect people when they are simply not part of that process? when i go to ireland next month i'm pretty sure i'll be paying sales tax on food, entertainment, hotel and the like but i'm also pretty sure i'm not allowed to vote.

if there is a country out there that says "wow, you paid some taxes, here have all the benefits of citizenship" please point said country out.

They are not getting all the benefits of citizenship. That is just a strawman. Our Constitution says that everyone that pays taxes is counted towards apportionment of Representative.

If you do not like this, then we have a system in place to change the Constitution.

“Representatives shall be apportioned among the several States according to their respective numbers, counting the whole number of persons in each State, excluding Indians not taxed. But when the right to vote at any election for the choice of electors for President and Vice President of the United States, Representatives in Congress, the Executive and Judicial officers of a State, or the members of the Legislature thereof, is denied to any of the male inhabitants of such State, being twenty-one years of age, and citizens of the United States, or in any way abridged, except for participation in rebellion, or other crime, the basis of representation therein shall be reduced in the proportion which the number of such male citizens shall bear to the whole number of male citizens twenty-one years of age in such State.”
— U.S. Constitution, Amendment XIV, section 2

now how do we know if we don't ask?

By getting proof of citizenship when they register to vote.

but now you're counting them in how many votes a state may get, or what representation they have. again - it's spelled out in the amendment i provided. if they cannot vote for these people/offices, then their being here should not be counted either as a benefit to that state that has them.

you are ignoring the first sentence of what you posted. IT clearly says the "WHOLE" number excluding those not taxed.

The part you are focusing on is just who can vote, not the apportionment of Representative