Question - Citizenship Question for Census

[BrokeLoser]

This fucking thread is awesome...it exposes all the Lefty pieces of shits....watch them defend the wetback infiltration of our Democracy...you can hear the joy in their posts, they love that Mexico is shredding us from the inside out...These are the same Lefty pieces of shits that cried RUSSIA the loudest. Am I right Golfing Gator ?

 

[iceberg]

Justices, Blocking Citizenship Question on Census, Call Trump's Push 'Contrived' | National Law Journal

how was the question actually raised on the proposal? could it be rephrased or better detailed to get this on there?

i hear it will misrepresent minorities and i don't understand how. if you're a citizen, who cares of what background? you did what you needed to do to be here, you get the same benefits we all do at that point. we keep throwing bodies into a crossfire of confusion and i just don't get it.

most stories are beating up trump or calling the "news" news but not really going into detail. i'll dig more as my day allows but would love to hear honest discussion on the question and why it's a "problem" to count citizens.

Remember, we are not just trying to count citizens, but everyone.

Congressional representation is based upon total numbers, not just citizens.

What is the benefit of the citizenship question?

So you want non citizens to determine the direction of states and our country. Of course you do.

For the millionth time, non citizens do not vote. If people who do not vote are determining the direction of states and our country, there is something wrong with that state or our country. Look to yourself.

They are giving unequal representation by being included in a census that determines representation.

Everyone in this country pays taxes -- property taxes through their rent if they don't own. Sales taxes. Road use taxes every time they drive through a toll or buy gas. The list goes on and one.
The easy answer is, crack down on illegal immigrants and there are a lot of things we need to do in order to be successful. It's not going to be pretty for awhile, but in ten years, for the 2030 census, this would not be such a big deal.

There are not going to be a lot of changes in the apportionment of reps, at least not according to the prognostications I saw. A lot of this is just more trash talking and making a huge deal out of illegals so Trump can get his Wall.

you can go to almost any other country out there and pay the same taxes. do they give you rights to help determine the direction of their country for that? asking because i don't know. if i'm on a work visa to china, mexico, japan, UK, iceland - do i get my say in how the country is ran while i'm there?

curious how others do this also.

also - i don't care about a wall and i don't see how asking if someone is a citizen will force pelosi and co to go along with it. if the left is using these #'s to gain an EC advantage, then yes it needs to be dealt with. i'd feel the same if the right were doing things to give them an advantage of this nature.

 

[Harpy Eagle]

What the court decided
In the opinion, which was written by Chief Justice John Roberts, the court ruled that the Commerce Department does have the authority to add a question to the census asking respondents if they are citizens of the U.S. The conservative members of the court agreed with Roberts on that point.

Legal scholars and court watchers Thursday agreed that the Trump administration got in its own way by offering a justification that would not pass legal muster.
But Roberts took issue with Commerce Secretary Wilbur Ross’ explanation that adding the question would help enforce the Voting Rights Act. “The evidence tells a story that does not match the explanation the Secretary gave,” Roberts wrote.

This claim is ultimately what the Supreme Court took issue with, describing the reasons behind the administration’s reasoning as “contrived.” The final opinion of the court also suggested that Ross, who runs the department charged with administering the census, had plans to include the citizenship question long before that explanation. “The record shows that the Secretary began taking steps to reinstate a citizenship question about a week into his tenure,” Chief Justice John Roberts wrote.

The Supreme Court blocked a citizenship question from the census. Now what?

I'm not sure why the Court will give Wilbur Ross a second chance to come up with a reason for the question--that seems contrived. Or how that would happen--on appeal, I suppose. But it sounds as if no matter what the "reason," the Court has already seen evidence that Ross had an agenda to disenfranchise Hispanics from the start.

If you're confused about the case, you're not the only one, according to the article. The "experts" are arguing about it, too.

how does it disenfranchise anyone at all who is a legal citizen? if not legal, what is the problem?

not trying to be an ass - honest. just trying to understand.

The census is tasked with counting every head in the US, regardless of citizenship status or voting rights or anything else. Head count. Remember, we counted women, Native Americans and slaves too, back in the day, and they had no right to vote. Kids under 18 can't vote, and we count them. Most states do not allow felons to vote. They are counted. The census is not just to determine the # of reps in Congress. Government still wants to know how many people live where.

I don't know WHY the Democrats are so sure the citizenship question will scare people though. It doesn't ask any additional questions, just "Is this person a citizen?" There are many, many people here LEGALLY who are not citizens. Workers and students on visas. Immigrants who need to live here five years before applying for citizenship, and many immigrants and refugees who become permanent residents but choose to retain their original citizenship rather than renounce citizenship in their home country. That is their choice and many of us would take that same option, I'm sure, if the tables were turned.

So anyway, I don't know why that is such a scary question. But apparently the Trump administration thinks so too. That's why they want to ask it.

great. count them. i've yet to say DO NOT COUNT ILLEGALS IN THE US.

count them as many times as you like. but whatever that # is does not effect the EC votes a given state has. if illegal they can't vote and should be outside of that process.

or show me any other modern country that will allow me to vote cause i am there paying a sales tax on my dinner.

How do you plan to determine if they are here illegally? Ask them?

I'd ask them for their SS numbers and a copy of their latest IRS income tax form's 1st page listing all dependents and their SS numbers.

I guess we are lucky you are not the king then

 

[Harpy Eagle]

Remember, we are not just trying to count citizens, but everyone.

Congressional representation is based upon total numbers, not just citizens.

What is the benefit of the citizenship question?

So you want non citizens to determine the direction of states and our country. Of course you do.

For the millionth time, non citizens do not vote. If people who do not vote are determining the direction of states and our country, there is something wrong with that state or our country. Look to yourself.

They are giving unequal representation by being included in a census that determines representation.

Everyone in this country pays taxes -- property taxes through their rent if they don't own. Sales taxes. Road use taxes every time they drive through a toll or buy gas. The list goes on and one.
The easy answer is, crack down on illegal immigrants and there are a lot of things we need to do in order to be successful. It's not going to be pretty for awhile, but in ten years, for the 2030 census, this would not be such a big deal.

There are not going to be a lot of changes in the apportionment of reps, at least not according to the prognostications I saw. A lot of this is just more trash talking and making a huge deal out of illegals so Trump can get his Wall.

you can go to almost any other country out there and pay the same taxes. do they give you rights to help determine the direction of their country for that? asking because i don't know. if i'm on a work visa to china, mexico, japan, UK, iceland - do i get my say in how the country is ran while i'm there?

curious how others do this also.

Does any other country have a Constitution that lays out the apportionment of Representative the way ours does?

 

[Care4all]

Justices, Blocking Citizenship Question on Census, Call Trump's Push 'Contrived' | National Law Journal

how was the question actually raised on the proposal? could it be rephrased or better detailed to get this on there?

i hear it will misrepresent minorities and i don't understand how. if you're a citizen, who cares of what background? you did what you needed to do to be here, you get the same benefits we all do at that point. we keep throwing bodies into a crossfire of confusion and i just don't get it.

most stories are beating up trump or calling the "news" news but not really going into detail. i'll dig more as my day allows but would love to hear honest discussion on the question and why it's a "problem" to count citizens.

Remember, we are not just trying to count citizens, but everyone.

Congressional representation is based upon total numbers, not just citizens.

What is the benefit of the citizenship question?

So you want non citizens to determine the direction of states and our country. Of course you do.

How are they determining the direction of states and our country?

Also, the Constitution says that everyone that pays taxes is counted towards apportionment of Representative.

If you do not like this, then we have a system in place to change the Constitution.

Do you know how many non citizens don’t pay taxes? Do you know how many do not pay into social security and Medicare?

The following classes of nonimmigrants and nonresident aliens are exempt from U.S. Social Security and Medicare taxes:

• A-visas. Employees of foreign governments, their families, and their servants are exempt on salaries paid to them in their official capacities as foreign government employees.
• D-visas. Crew members of a ship or aircraft may be exempt if the vessel is a foreign vessel and the employer is a foreign employer, or if the services are performed outside of the United States.
  • Crew members of an American vessel or aircraft who perform services within the United States are subject to Social Security and Medicare taxes.
  • Crew members of an American vessel or aircraft who perform services outside the United States are subject to Social Security and Medicare taxes if:
    • the employee signed on the vessel or aircraft in the United States; or
    • the employee signed on the vessel or aircraft outside the United States but the vessel or aircraft touches a U.S. port while he is employed thereon.
• F-visas, J-visas, M-visas, Q-visas. Nonresident alien students, scholars, professors, teachers, trainees, researchers, and other aliens temporarily present in the United States in F-1,J-1,M-1, or Q-1/Q-2 nonimmigrant status are exempt from Social Security / Medicare Taxes on wages paid to them for services performed within the United States as long as such services are allowed by the United States Citizenship and Immigration Services (USCIS) for these nonimmigrant statuses, and such services are performed to carry out the purposes for which they were admitted into the United States.
  • Exempt Employment includes:
    • On-campus student employment up to 20 hours a week (40 hrs during summer vacations)
    • Off-campus student employment allowed by USCIS
    • Practical Training student employment on or off campus
    • On-campus employment as professor, teacher or researcher
  • Limitations on exemption:
    • The exemption does not apply to spouses and children in F-2, J-2, M-2, or Q-3 nonimmigrant status.
    • The exemption does not apply to employment not allowed by USCIS or to employment not closely connected to the purpose for which they were admitted into the United States.
    • The exemption does not apply to nonimmigrants in F-1, J-1, M-1, or Q-1/Q-2 status who change nonimmigrant status to a status which is not exempt or to a special protected status.
    • The exemption does not apply to nonimmigrants in F-1, J-1, M-1, or Q-1/Q-2 status who become resident aliens for tax purposes.
• G-visas. Employees of international organizations are exempt from Social Security/Medicare taxes on wages paid to them for services performed within the United States in their official capacity as employees of such organizations.
  • The exemption does not apply to spouses and children of nonimmigrants in G status who are employed in the United States by anyone other than an international organization.
• H-visas. Certain nonimmigrants in H-2 and H-2A status are exempt from Social Security/Medicare taxes as follows:
  • An H-2 nonimmigrant who is a resident of the Philippines and who performs services in Guam;
  • An H-2A nonimmigrant admitted into the United States temporarily to perform agricultural labor.

The U.S. has signed Totalization Agreements with certain countries, which may affect an alien’s liability for Social Security or Medicare taxes. The complete texts of the Totalization Agreements may be found on the International Agreements page of the Social Security Administration's website.

Wages paid for certain types of services are exempt from Social Security/Medicare taxes. Examples of exempt services include:

• Compensation paid to a duly ordained, commissioned, or licensed minister of a church in the exercise of his ministry.
• Compensation paid to a child under the age of 18 employed by his father or mother if paid under certain conditions.
• Compensation for services performed as a student nurse if paid under certain conditions.

Aliens Employed in the U.S. Social Security Taxes | Internal Revenue Service

And many are not liable for federal taxes either-

Taxation of Nonresident Alien Income
Nonresident aliens are only required to pay income tax on any income that is earned or otherwise realized from a U.S. source. They do not have to pay tax on any foreign-earned income. For example, someone from Germany who owns a business in Germany and another in the U.S. will only be taxed on the income from the latter source. The German business will be ignored. Investment income realized in the U.S. that is not from a U.S. source is usually taxed at the rate of 30%, unless otherwise specified by treaty. Spouses of nonresident aliens can also opt to claim them as dependents in some cases instead of filing a joint return. Nonresident aliens must also keep careful records to show the sources of all of their income so that the IRS can clearly see what should be taxed and what is exempt.


foreign earned income exclusionand/or the foreign tax credit if they qualify. However, resident aliens who work for a foreign government in the U.S. may be able to claim an exemption on their wages if the U.S. has a reciprocal tax treaty with the employing government.


green card or meet the residence test. This test requires that the alien taxpayer reside in the U.S. for at least 31 days during the year, and must have been in the U.S. for at least 183 days of the past three years (including the current year). However, the residence test only counts a day of residence in the U.S. as a full day of residence for the purpose of this test for the current year. A day of residence only counts as one-third of a day of residence in the previous year and one-sixth of a day in the year before. Therefore, the total number of days of residence during the previous two years must be divided by either three or six before being totaled, and this final total must equal at least 183.


taxable income.

• Commute from Canada/Mexico - Those who commute from Canada or Mexico to the U.S. on a regular basis cannot count commuting days as days of residence for the purpose of the residence test.
• Tax Home - Aliens who can prove that they had a tax home in another country during the year and were not in the U.S. for 183 days during the year are usually not required to pay taxes in the U.S. even if they meet the standard residence test described above. In this case, a tax home is usually considered to be either the principal place of business or the primary residence of the person in question. Those in this category are exempt from U.S. taxation, even if they have a residence within the country. Aliens who wish to claim this exemption must file Form 8840 with the IRS. (For more, see How International Tax Rates Impact Your Investments.)
• Exempt Person – Those who must temporarily reside within the U.S. for certain reasons can claim an exemption for the days spent stateside by filing Form 8843. Those who are eligible to claim this exemption include:
  -Teachers
  -Trainees
  -Students
  -Person related to a foreign government - one with diplomatic or consular status or is an employee of an international organization (or is an immediate family member of either party).
  -Professional athletes

• Medical Exception – Anyone who is involuntarily detained in the U.S. due to medical reasons can claim a medical exemption. For example, a foreign tourist who suffers a heart attack while in the U.S. and is hospitalized for three months can file Form 8843 and list the days spent here for medical reasons under this exemption.
• Tax Treaty Exception – The residence test does not override any definition of residence as specified in a tax treaty. A treaty with another country may exempt you from being classified as a resident even if an alien otherwise meets the residence test. (For related information, see Taking A Look at Tax Havens.)

Dual Tax Status
Aliens who receive their green cards during the year will have to file a dual-status return, because they are considered nonresident aliens before they got their card and resident aliens afterward. Their status changes on the day that they receive the green card. Those in this category must include a statement that breaks down all income received as a resident versus a nonresident.

Tax Rules for Resident and Nonresident Aliens

Yet you want them to be counted.

They are NON RESIDENTS.....

The census is for residents? Not non residents?

 

[depotoo]

You don't think it might be important in setting immigration policy and fixing budgets for things like schools and hospitals and adjudication and such?

do non-citizens use things like schools and hospitals and such?

yep. and?

again - why are we putting them in the same category that drives how we elect people when they are simply not part of that process? when i go to ireland next month i'm pretty sure i'll be paying sales tax on food, entertainment, hotel and the like but i'm also pretty sure i'm not allowed to vote.

if there is a country out there that says "wow, you paid some taxes, here have all the benefits of citizenship" please point said country out.

They are not getting all the benefits of citizenship. That is just a strawman. Our Constitution says that everyone that pays taxes is counted towards apportionment of Representative.

If you do not like this, then we have a system in place to change the Constitution.

“Representatives shall be apportioned among the several States according to their respective numbers, counting the whole number of persons in each State, excluding Indians not taxed. But when the right to vote at any election for the choice of electors for President and Vice President of the United States, Representatives in Congress, the Executive and Judicial officers of a State, or the members of the Legislature thereof, is denied to any of the male inhabitants of such State, being twenty-one years of age, and citizens of the United States, or in any way abridged, except for participation in rebellion, or other crime, the basis of representation therein shall be reduced in the proportion which the number of such male citizens shall bear to the whole number of male citizens twenty-one years of age in such State.”
— U.S. Constitution, Amendment XIV, section 2

now how do we know if we don't ask?

When the Constitution was written, there was no such thing as being here "illegally." So maybe it DOES need to be reworded a bit.

Historically, America has provided for lawful immigration to those who wish to live here and are willing to accept the responsibilities of citizenship. The Founding Fathers welcomed immigrants who contributed to society and who would assimilate into the culture. James Madison said he wished “to invite foreigners of merit and republican principles among us.” He recognized that “America was indebted to emigration for her settlement and prosperity,” but he wanted to exclude anyone who could not readily incorporate himself into society. George Washington felt that immigration should be limited to useful mechanics and some particular description of men and professions.


The Founding Fathers required that four elements be satisfied for an immigrant to become an American citizen. These requirements were incorporated into the the Naturalization Act of 1795 and remain a part of immigration law:
1) five years of (lawful) residence within the United States;
2) a good moral character, attached to the principles of the Constitution of the United States, and well disposed to the good order and happiness of the United States;
3) the taking of a formal oath to support the Constitution and to renounce any foreign allegiance; and
4) the renunciation of any hereditary titles.

Washington believed it was important for the immigrants to assimilate into American culture, so that they would become “one people.” Washington said:
[T]he policy or advantage of [immigration] taking place in a body (I mean the settling of them in a body) may be much questioned; for, by so doing, they retain the Language, habits and principles (good or bad) which they bring with them. Whereas by an intermixture with our people, they, or their descendants, get assimilated to our customs, measures and laws: in a word, soon become one people.

[George Washington, November 15, 1794]. Alexander Hamilton also felt that
[T]he safety of a republic depends essentially on the energy of a common national sentiment; on a uniformity of principles and habits; on the exemption of citizens from foreign bias and prejudice; and on the love of country which will almost invariably be found to be closely connected with birth, education, and family.
Thomas Jefferson feared that immigrants who brought different ideas and refused to assimilate would cause discord in society. He warned that “These principles, with their language, they will transmit to their children. In proportion to their numbers, they will share with us the legislation. They will infuse into it their spirit, warp and bias its direction, and tender it a heterogeneous, incoherent, distracted mass.” Such an effect would be to destabilize and fracture society.
Leadership by George Washington: Founding Fathers on Illegal Immigration and the Safety of the Republic
Quotation by Alexander Hamilton
Founders Online: From George Washington to John Adams, 15 November 1794

 

[Billy_Kinetta]

Justices, Blocking Citizenship Question on Census, Call Trump's Push 'Contrived' | National Law Journal

how was the question actually raised on the proposal? could it be rephrased or better detailed to get this on there?

i hear it will misrepresent minorities and i don't understand how. if you're a citizen, who cares of what background? you did what you needed to do to be here, you get the same benefits we all do at that point. we keep throwing bodies into a crossfire of confusion and i just don't get it.

most stories are beating up trump or calling the "news" news but not really going into detail. i'll dig more as my day allows but would love to hear honest discussion on the question and why it's a "problem" to count citizens.

Remember, we are not just trying to count citizens, but everyone.

Congressional representation is based upon total numbers, not just citizens.

What is the benefit of the citizenship question?

So you want non citizens to determine the direction of states and our country. Of course you do.

For the millionth time, non citizens do not vote. If people who do not vote are determining the direction of states and our country, there is something wrong with that state or our country. Look to yourself.

They are giving unequal representation by being included in a census that determines representation.

Everyone in this country pays taxes -- property taxes through their rent if they don't own. Sales taxes. Road use taxes every time they drive through a toll or buy gas. The list goes on and one.
The easy answer is, crack down on illegal immigrants and there are a lot of things we need to do in order to be successful. It's not going to be pretty for awhile, but in ten years, for the 2030 census, this would not be such a big deal.

There are not going to be a lot of changes in the apportionment of reps, at least not according to the prognostications I saw. A lot of this is just more trash talking and making a huge deal out of illegals so Trump can get his Wall.

Paying taxes grants illegals no special rights. They are still illegals.

 

[iceberg]

So you want non citizens to determine the direction of states and our country. Of course you do.

For the millionth time, non citizens do not vote. If people who do not vote are determining the direction of states and our country, there is something wrong with that state or our country. Look to yourself.

They are giving unequal representation by being included in a census that determines representation.

Everyone in this country pays taxes -- property taxes through their rent if they don't own. Sales taxes. Road use taxes every time they drive through a toll or buy gas. The list goes on and one.
The easy answer is, crack down on illegal immigrants and there are a lot of things we need to do in order to be successful. It's not going to be pretty for awhile, but in ten years, for the 2030 census, this would not be such a big deal.

There are not going to be a lot of changes in the apportionment of reps, at least not according to the prognostications I saw. A lot of this is just more trash talking and making a huge deal out of illegals so Trump can get his Wall.

you can go to almost any other country out there and pay the same taxes. do they give you rights to help determine the direction of their country for that? asking because i don't know. if i'm on a work visa to china, mexico, japan, UK, iceland - do i get my say in how the country is ran while i'm there?

curious how others do this also.

Does any other country have a Constitution that lays out the apportionment of Representative the way ours does?

not that i know of. but that wasn't my question. i am asking how others do this and if these "rights" are universal in nature or just our own. if no other country does this, then sure i will ask why we do it.

if we do it for the common good of us all, let's identify that and leave it alone. if we only care for poltiical advantages, then we're stuck in business as usual and may the best case presented win.

 

[Billy_Kinetta]

You were the one who brought up "ignoring it", not I.

That is what you are suggesting your savior in the White House do. Ignore the date set by Fed Law.

Please post where I suggested that.

Post number 9

And here it is ladies and gennilmin!

"Census forms could be sent out as late as December 31 2020 to be legally counted as fulfilling the ten-year mandate."

I just know you're dying to explain how this constitutes favoring ignoring a law.

The law states they have to be sent out by 1 April. Do wait till Dec 31 would be ignoring the law.

that was not too complicated.

I merely mentioned the last date to fulfill the ten-year mandate. As we have discussed, changing the law is an option, and certainly assumed by those of sound mind.

 

[iceberg]

Remember, we are not just trying to count citizens, but everyone.

Congressional representation is based upon total numbers, not just citizens.

What is the benefit of the citizenship question?

So you want non citizens to determine the direction of states and our country. Of course you do.

For the millionth time, non citizens do not vote. If people who do not vote are determining the direction of states and our country, there is something wrong with that state or our country. Look to yourself.

They are giving unequal representation by being included in a census that determines representation.

Everyone in this country pays taxes -- property taxes through their rent if they don't own. Sales taxes. Road use taxes every time they drive through a toll or buy gas. The list goes on and one.
The easy answer is, crack down on illegal immigrants and there are a lot of things we need to do in order to be successful. It's not going to be pretty for awhile, but in ten years, for the 2030 census, this would not be such a big deal.

There are not going to be a lot of changes in the apportionment of reps, at least not according to the prognostications I saw. A lot of this is just more trash talking and making a huge deal out of illegals so Trump can get his Wall.

Paying taxes grants illegals no special rights. They are still illegals.

we may think that today but we go by the constitution and if it doesn't spell it out, then we need to figure it out and agree on how to count this. it is a social problem of today in the same manner indians, women and the like were problems they had to correct in their own respective times.

what does the constitution say?
does it need to be clarified or changed?

go from there.

 

[Harpy Eagle]

not that i know of. but that wasn't my question. i am asking how others do this and if these "rights" are universal in nature or just our own. if no other country does this, then sure i will ask why we do it.

if we do it for the common good of us all, let's identify that and leave it alone. if we only care for poltiical advantages, then we're stuck in business as usual and may the best case presented win.

I do not know why the 14th was written the way it was, perhaps it was for political advantage back in the day, but it did get approved through a specific process.

Perhaps it needs to be changed, I do not know. But I do know that it is there in our Constitution and should be followed until such time as it is removed.

 

[depotoo]

Remember, we are not just trying to count citizens, but everyone.

Congressional representation is based upon total numbers, not just citizens.

What is the benefit of the citizenship question?

So you want non citizens to determine the direction of states and our country. Of course you do.

For the millionth time, non citizens do not vote. If people who do not vote are determining the direction of states and our country, there is something wrong with that state or our country. Look to yourself.

They are giving unequal representation by being included in a census that determines representation.

Everyone in this country pays taxes -- property taxes through their rent if they don't own. Sales taxes. Road use taxes every time they drive through a toll or buy gas. The list goes on and one.
The easy answer is, crack down on illegal immigrants and there are a lot of things we need to do in order to be successful. It's not going to be pretty for awhile, but in ten years, for the 2030 census, this would not be such a big deal.

There are not going to be a lot of changes in the apportionment of reps, at least not according to the prognostications I saw. A lot of this is just more trash talking and making a huge deal out of illegals so Trump can get his Wall.

you can go to almost any other country out there and pay the same taxes. do they give you rights to help determine the direction of their country for that? asking because i don't know. if i'm on a work visa to china, mexico, japan, UK, iceland - do i get my say in how the country is ran while i'm there?

curious how others do this also.

also - i don't care about a wall and i don't see how asking if someone is a citizen will force pelosi and co to go along with it. if the left is using these #'s to gain an EC advantage, then yes it needs to be dealt with. i'd feel the same if the right were doing things to give them an advantage of this nature.

Of course they are using it. If you think otherwise you are being willfully blind.

 

[Harpy Eagle]

That is what you are suggesting your savior in the White House do. Ignore the date set by Fed Law.

Please post where I suggested that.

Post number 9

And here it is ladies and gennilmin!

"Census forms could be sent out as late as December 31 2020 to be legally counted as fulfilling the ten-year mandate."

I just know you're dying to explain how this constitutes favoring ignoring a law.

The law states they have to be sent out by 1 April. Do wait till Dec 31 would be ignoring the law.

that was not too complicated.

I merely mentioned the last date to fulfill the ten-year mandate. As we have discussed, changing the law is an option, and certainly assumed by those of sound mind.

What do you suppose the chance are that both sides of Congress would approve of changing the law?

 

[iceberg]

Justices, Blocking Citizenship Question on Census, Call Trump's Push 'Contrived' | National Law Journal

how was the question actually raised on the proposal? could it be rephrased or better detailed to get this on there?

i hear it will misrepresent minorities and i don't understand how. if you're a citizen, who cares of what background? you did what you needed to do to be here, you get the same benefits we all do at that point. we keep throwing bodies into a crossfire of confusion and i just don't get it.

most stories are beating up trump or calling the "news" news but not really going into detail. i'll dig more as my day allows but would love to hear honest discussion on the question and why it's a "problem" to count citizens.

The purpose of the census is to get an accurate count of the TOTAL population according to the Constitution.

And the Constitution also says, from that TOTAL population of citizens, legal and illegal immigrants, our US Representatives are allotted.... I think it is 1 congressman for about every 750,000 residents... And also many federal funds are distributed to the states by TOTAL population.

The citizen question was purposely inserted by Republicans in to the census, so that an INACCURATE count of the population would be obtained, reducing the population count, which would reduce the number of US Congressmen that the Constitution requires them to have....per resident.

This would hurt citizens that live in communities where immigrants are placed by the federal gvt... refugees that are placed by the gvt, and asylum seekers waiting their court hearing s placed in the different states...

ALSO, It hurts citizens because with an inaccurate count, their state will get less funds allotted by population, yet have all the non citizens that they have jurisdiction over, and responsibility to police, and educate etc.... giving the needy citizens less money for them to receive...

You assume no one who is not a citizen would respond. Why wouldn't legal immigrants respond? I'm sure that wanted fugitives from justice don't return the census form either. Barry 'the knuckle' Barowski, the bank robber who escaped from the Barney Frank Correctional Facility last week, probably won't be filling out a census form while sipping tea. They could include a disclaimer for otherwise law-abiding illegal immigrants indicating that the census info won't be shared with ICE or something like that.

It is illegal for the census to share any of its individual information with ICE or anyone else for 70 years. But who is going to trust that with Wilbur Ross in the driver's seat?

No kidding! Or with Trump, who has tested every law on the books, with our tax dollars, in the Courts!!! And who believes the President is above the law.... Under any normal presidency, the regulations with protections could be trusted.... not this one. Republicans KNOW this will reduce the population count, make it inaccurate, primarily in poor districts

and as we are making great strides talking over complete US history and what to do aside from party affiliation, here you are bashing trump and making it all about today.

this "instant gratification society" is what is killing us. you seem to be the poster child for it.

 

[Harpy Eagle]

Remember, we are not just trying to count citizens, but everyone.

Congressional representation is based upon total numbers, not just citizens.

What is the benefit of the citizenship question?

So you want non citizens to determine the direction of states and our country. Of course you do.

For the millionth time, non citizens do not vote. If people who do not vote are determining the direction of states and our country, there is something wrong with that state or our country. Look to yourself.

They are giving unequal representation by being included in a census that determines representation.

Everyone in this country pays taxes -- property taxes through their rent if they don't own. Sales taxes. Road use taxes every time they drive through a toll or buy gas. The list goes on and one.
The easy answer is, crack down on illegal immigrants and there are a lot of things we need to do in order to be successful. It's not going to be pretty for awhile, but in ten years, for the 2030 census, this would not be such a big deal.

There are not going to be a lot of changes in the apportionment of reps, at least not according to the prognostications I saw. A lot of this is just more trash talking and making a huge deal out of illegals so Trump can get his Wall.

Paying taxes grants illegals no special rights. They are still illegals.

Being counted in the census grants no special rights either.

 

[iceberg]

not that i know of. but that wasn't my question. i am asking how others do this and if these "rights" are universal in nature or just our own. if no other country does this, then sure i will ask why we do it.

if we do it for the common good of us all, let's identify that and leave it alone. if we only care for poltiical advantages, then we're stuck in business as usual and may the best case presented win.

I do not know why the 14th was written the way it was, perhaps it was for political advantage back in the day, but it did get approved through a specific process.

Perhaps it needs to be changed, I do not know. But I do know that it is there in our Constitution and should be followed until such time as it is removed.

agreed. for the most part i've gotten a lot out of the different sides of this convo and gained a better understanding of how we've gotten this far. i love conversations like this and appreciate all the different views/sides that are focused on the overall issues we face. who anyone loves or hates *today* i really don't give a damn about in topics like this.

 

[iceberg]

So you want non citizens to determine the direction of states and our country. Of course you do.

For the millionth time, non citizens do not vote. If people who do not vote are determining the direction of states and our country, there is something wrong with that state or our country. Look to yourself.

They are giving unequal representation by being included in a census that determines representation.

Everyone in this country pays taxes -- property taxes through their rent if they don't own. Sales taxes. Road use taxes every time they drive through a toll or buy gas. The list goes on and one.
The easy answer is, crack down on illegal immigrants and there are a lot of things we need to do in order to be successful. It's not going to be pretty for awhile, but in ten years, for the 2030 census, this would not be such a big deal.

There are not going to be a lot of changes in the apportionment of reps, at least not according to the prognostications I saw. A lot of this is just more trash talking and making a huge deal out of illegals so Trump can get his Wall.

Paying taxes grants illegals no special rights. They are still illegals.

Being counted in the census grants no special rights either.

but does it give the state more power to count them as such?

 

[depotoo]

So you want non citizens to determine the direction of states and our country. Of course you do.

For the millionth time, non citizens do not vote. If people who do not vote are determining the direction of states and our country, there is something wrong with that state or our country. Look to yourself.

They are giving unequal representation by being included in a census that determines representation.

Everyone in this country pays taxes -- property taxes through their rent if they don't own. Sales taxes. Road use taxes every time they drive through a toll or buy gas. The list goes on and one.
The easy answer is, crack down on illegal immigrants and there are a lot of things we need to do in order to be successful. It's not going to be pretty for awhile, but in ten years, for the 2030 census, this would not be such a big deal.

There are not going to be a lot of changes in the apportionment of reps, at least not according to the prognostications I saw. A lot of this is just more trash talking and making a huge deal out of illegals so Trump can get his Wall.

Paying taxes grants illegals no special rights. They are still illegals.

Being counted in the census grants no special rights either.

The Electoral College - Voters | US Election Assistance Commission
The 2010 decennial census altered States’ weight in the Electoral College. Following each census, the United State Census Bureau conducts a process called reapportionment during which States are assigned a number of seats in the United States House of Representatives based on population. These changes to the way Americans select their president warranted an updated explanation of the system prior to the 2012 presidential election.

 

[iceberg]

how does it disenfranchise anyone at all who is a legal citizen? if not legal, what is the problem?

not trying to be an ass - honest. just trying to understand.

The census is tasked with counting every head in the US, regardless of citizenship status or voting rights or anything else. Head count. Remember, we counted women, Native Americans and slaves too, back in the day, and they had no right to vote. Kids under 18 can't vote, and we count them. Most states do not allow felons to vote. They are counted. The census is not just to determine the # of reps in Congress. Government still wants to know how many people live where.

I don't know WHY the Democrats are so sure the citizenship question will scare people though. It doesn't ask any additional questions, just "Is this person a citizen?" There are many, many people here LEGALLY who are not citizens. Workers and students on visas. Immigrants who need to live here five years before applying for citizenship, and many immigrants and refugees who become permanent residents but choose to retain their original citizenship rather than renounce citizenship in their home country. That is their choice and many of us would take that same option, I'm sure, if the tables were turned.

So anyway, I don't know why that is such a scary question. But apparently the Trump administration thinks so too. That's why they want to ask it.

great. count them. i've yet to say DO NOT COUNT ILLEGALS IN THE US.

count them as many times as you like. but whatever that # is does not effect the EC votes a given state has. if illegal they can't vote and should be outside of that process.

or show me any other modern country that will allow me to vote cause i am there paying a sales tax on my dinner.

How do you plan to determine if they are here illegally? Ask them?

I'd ask them for their SS numbers and a copy of their latest IRS income tax form's 1st page listing all dependents and their SS numbers.

I guess we are lucky you are not the king then

some moistened bint lob a scimitar at him again???

 

[Harpy Eagle]

not that i know of. but that wasn't my question. i am asking how others do this and if these "rights" are universal in nature or just our own. if no other country does this, then sure i will ask why we do it.

if we do it for the common good of us all, let's identify that and leave it alone. if we only care for poltiical advantages, then we're stuck in business as usual and may the best case presented win.

I do not know why the 14th was written the way it was, perhaps it was for political advantage back in the day, but it did get approved through a specific process.

Perhaps it needs to be changed, I do not know. But I do know that it is there in our Constitution and should be followed until such time as it is removed.

agreed. for the most part i've gotten a lot out of the different sides of this convo and gained a better understanding of how we've gotten this far. i love conversations like this and appreciate all the different views/sides that are focused on the overall issues we face. who anyone loves or hates *today* i really don't give a damn about in topics like this.

That is one of the overlooked problems with the census question being added last minute. As I stated earlier, these things are planned down to the most precise detail to get maximum response rates and the most accurate responses to the wording of the questions. They have been planning and laying out the next census since the last one ended. Throwing in an extra question is far more complicated than it might be worth. Even Ross admits that it would decrease response rates and response rates play a huge part in accuracy of the data.