Racist groups vs Free Speech, i've converted...

[bripat9643]

No it doesn't, dumbass. Show me in international law where confiscating property within your borders is an act of war.

Really? First it was a rebellion. When the Supreme Court ruled on the legality of that secession they said the Constitution proved it illegal. The President has powers to quell rebellion.

"It was a rebellion?" Says who? Secession is one thing. Rebellion is another. The Supreme court stuffed with Lincoln appointed hacks ruled incorrectly. Their ruling is packed full of claims that are obviously not true.

2nd What do you mean "international Law". That' doesn't usurp the Constitution no matter how much people like you want to burn that piece of paper when it doesn't say what you wish it would.

International law determines what are acts of war and what aren't acts of war. Confiscating property within your own borders is not an act of war. Furthermore, SC didn't confiscate the property. They simply said that Union troops couldn't reside there.

3rd. Those states signed contracts signing over the land to the US in perpetuity. They took over dozens of forts, bases, weapons Cache's, federal banks and mints, and ships. Those that the Union did not surrender were bombed. How's that not reason for war? Someone takes a bunch of nuclear subs and carriers and takes over fort Knox and start bombing Fort Benning Ga until we surrender it a day later, I'd hope the president fought back.

They signed over their property rights. They retained their legal jurisdiction. That gives them the right to evict the troops of a foreign government. If someone is in my living room refuses to leave when I ask him, I have the right to get my Glock automatic and escort him to the door.

 

[Slash]

Actually the confederates were tired of being raped through taxes. Slavery is a BS claim that had absolutely nothing to do with starting the Civil War.

5 New England States ( Massachusetts, Connecticut, New Hampshire, Rhode Island, and New York ) were primarily responsible for the importation of most of the slaves from Africa to America. These states had both private and state owned fleets of ships.

Interesting opinion.

I'd like to know why then when the South seceded in their letters of secession they claimed slavery was the founding cause. Why their VP called it the Cornerstone of secession. And why the ONLY mention of taxes in ANY of the Articles of secession was in mention to the 3/5 compromise which they actually wanted and wrote into their own Constitution of the Confederacy.

Maybe they didn't mention taxes, because the tax law at the time in the US was written by Robert M.T. Hunter. You may also recognize him as Secretary of State of the Confederacy. Maybe they didn't mention taxes because they were at historically low levels (and much lower than they ever were in the Confederacy).

But your belief is Slavery, which is mentioned dozens of times (slavery, slave law, abolitionists, slavery expansion) wasn't the cause, but taxes was the issue. They just forgot to mention it right?


Also seeing as Massachusetts banned the slave trade in their state BEFORE George Washington was president. Care to explain to me how they had a state run slave trade?

You are right that those 5 northern colonies were responsible for most of the slave importation to the colonies of Great Britian in America. Granted Northern states banned slave trade during the Revolutionary War, and George Washington was the president who signed the law banning slave trade by any US ship, private or public. There was a small number of illegal slave trade ongoing, but the overwhelming majority of slaves in the US were bred in the US. Of the ones that came over, the overwhelming majority of them traveled under a British flag.


THIS is why statues celebrating those people aren't going to help us remember our history. Books and reading will. Museums will. A big monument of Lee on a Horse gets people thinking taxes was the cause of the Civil war.

 

[Slash]

No it doesn't, dumbass. Show me in international law where confiscating property within your borders is an act of war.

Really? First it was a rebellion. When the Supreme Court ruled on the legality of that secession they said the Constitution proved it illegal. The President has powers to quell rebellion.

"It was a rebellion?" Says who? Secession is one thing. Rebellion is another. The Supreme court stuffed with Lincoln appointed hacks ruled incorrectly. Their ruling is packed full of claims that are obviously not true.

2nd What do you mean "international Law". That' doesn't usurp the Constitution no matter how much people like you want to burn that piece of paper when it doesn't say what you wish it would.

International law determines what are acts of war and what aren't acts of war. Confiscating property within your own borders is not an act of war. Furthermore, SC didn't confiscate the property. They simply said that Union troops couldn't reside there.

3rd. Those states signed contracts signing over the land to the US in perpetuity. They took over dozens of forts, bases, weapons Cache's, federal banks and mints, and ships. Those that the Union did not surrender were bombed. How's that not reason for war? Someone takes a bunch of nuclear subs and carriers and takes over fort Knox and start bombing Fort Benning Ga until we surrender it a day later, I'd hope the president fought back.

They signed over their property rights. They retained their legal jurisdiction. That gives them the right to evict the troops of a foreign government. If someone is in my living room refuses to leave when I ask him, I have the right to get my Glock automatic and escort him to the door.

While you may disagree with their ruling, it is still the law. We don't get to grab sharpies and black out the parts of the Constitution we don't like. The Constitution says the Supreme Court decides law and fact in matters of the state and Federal gov't. They did that. Just because you disagree doesn't matter.


And no they did not retain any legal jurisdiction over those properties. They signed over those properties as no longer property of the state, but property of the US Federal Government. Like you say, if someone walks on your property, you have the right to use force to evict them. We agree on that.

 

[Slade3200]

It's been a crazy week and i've engaged in many heated discussions about the events of Charlottesville. I have to admit that i've been greatly conflicted about my anti-racist feelings and my support of free speech. I flirted dangerously close in many discussions to promoting the shutdown of speech for white supremacist groups. I saw them as threats, conveyers of hate speech and given their history which has resulted in millions of deaths I was ok with suppressing their speech and shutting down their causes by whatever means necessary. But, I've had a change of heart.

I think we can be smarter than that and not empower these assholes to strip us of our freedoms. It is a slippery slope once you start suppressing speech. We have legal censorship in a variety of areas which i'm fine with, but shutting down groups from holding rallies, having websites and protesting is only going to lead to bad things. Note that I in no way support any provocation of violence or destruction resulting from rallies or protests. If that happens then shut them down immediately and make arrests.

I would promote fighting these douchebags by ignoring them and minimizing them in a SMART way. Don't lower yourself to fight with them and fuel their cause. Take away their statues and flags that empower them in public forums and show them that our communities outright reject their hateful views. Or construct monuments and statues of civil rights leaders next to the confederate statues and tell the story about how we prevailed and fought agains their hate, and WE WON. Ignore their rallies and don't give them the exposure or attention that they crave. Speak louder and stronger for equality.

I still think that the Presidents comments that minimized the ugliness of the Nazi's and White Supremacists were wildly inappropriate. He tried to spread the blame to the left for the anti-protests and it deluded his message of condemnation that should have been crystal clear in opposition of the hate groups. He should have spread the message in a better way to fight against it. I don't want to relitigate Trumps actions in this OP but I did want to share my change of opinion and open up a discussion about productive ways to move forward that combats the hate and preserves our right of free speech.

The progressive left wouldn't get any news coverage if they just ignored the neo-Nazis. They need a "moral victory" so bad, since all their attempts at bringing President Trump and the country down have failed.

These globalists need to stir up fear and hatred in order to recruit their foot soldiers- "Antifa". These communist thugs could care less about Constitutional rights, their Agenda is the number one priority. Right now undermining the legitimacy of the US government is at the top of their list (because they lost the election).

It's baffling that there are some "liberals" out there who actually think the far left want peace and decency.

Yeah, you're probably right. All these thousands of people we are seeing protesting today probably don't care at all about racism, its just politics.

 

[Slade3200]

It's been a crazy week and i've engaged in many heated discussions about the events of Charlottesville. I have to admit that i've been greatly conflicted about my anti-racist feelings and my support of free speech. I flirted dangerously close in many discussions to promoting the shutdown of speech for white supremacist groups. I saw them as threats, conveyers of hate speech and given their history which has resulted in millions of deaths I was ok with suppressing their speech and shutting down their causes by whatever means necessary. But, I've had a change of heart.

I think we can be smarter than that and not empower these assholes to strip us of our freedoms. It is a slippery slope once you start suppressing speech. We have legal censorship in a variety of areas which i'm fine with, but shutting down groups from holding rallies, having websites and protesting is only going to lead to bad things. Note that I in no way support any provocation of violence or destruction resulting from rallies or protests. If that happens then shut them down immediately and make arrests.

I would promote fighting these douchebags by ignoring them and minimizing them in a SMART way. Don't lower yourself to fight with them and fuel their cause. Take away their statues and flags that empower them in public forums and show them that our communities outright reject their hateful views. Or construct monuments and statues of civil rights leaders next to the confederate statues and tell the story about how we prevailed and fought agains their hate, and WE WON. Ignore their rallies and don't give them the exposure or attention that they crave. Speak louder and stronger for equality.

I still think that the Presidents comments that minimized the ugliness of the Nazi's and White Supremacists were wildly inappropriate. He tried to spread the blame to the left for the anti-protests and it deluded his message of condemnation that should have been crystal clear in opposition of the hate groups. He should have spread the message in a better way to fight against it. I don't want to relitigate Trumps actions in this OP but I did want to share my change of opinion and open up a discussion about productive ways to move forward that combats the hate and preserves our right of free speech.

These racist groups......are so small in size that what you saw in Virginia is pretty much all of them in the entire country.....they get more coverage than they actually deserve because the democrats in the press want to use them to smear Trump.

The President did not minimize the racists......he named them.....that he also called out the actual violence by the antifa and black lives matter thugs is what caused you guys to go nuts......

Notice.....the only ones trying to silence free speech in Virginia....was antifa and black lives matter......right? Did you see the white racists stopping bernie or hilary rallies? Did you see white racists preventing anyone from speaking on college campuses? Did you see white racists attacking non violen, peaceful rally attendees anywhere in the country in the last two years, did you see the white racists attacking police with rocks, pop cans, and clubs?

Who did you see doing all of that......antifa, and black lives matter.....

I can't stand racists of any kind.....but the left seems to think black racism is okay....and that is the problem...they don't even see that this is a problem....

All racism is stupid....but the left believes in racism, both the white racists and the black racists were in Virginia last weekend...both need to be called out.

Which conservative or Right news outlet that you respect did not cover Charlottesville? I'm sick of the finger pointing to the Liberal media, it's a scapegoat. The Right media covers the same shit, just with a different spin.

 

[Remodeling Maidiac]

It's been a crazy week and i've engaged in many heated discussions about the events of Charlottesville. I have to admit that i've been greatly conflicted about my anti-racist feelings and my support of free speech. I flirted dangerously close in many discussions to promoting the shutdown of speech for white supremacist groups. I saw them as threats, conveyers of hate speech and given their history which has resulted in millions of deaths I was ok with suppressing their speech and shutting down their causes by whatever means necessary. But, I've had a change of heart.

I think we can be smarter than that and not empower these assholes to strip us of our freedoms. It is a slippery slope once you start suppressing speech. We have legal censorship in a variety of areas which i'm fine with, but shutting down groups from holding rallies, having websites and protesting is only going to lead to bad things. Note that I in no way support any provocation of violence or destruction resulting from rallies or protests. If that happens then shut them down immediately and make arrests.

I would promote fighting these douchebags by ignoring them and minimizing them in a SMART way. Don't lower yourself to fight with them and fuel their cause. Take away their statues and flags that empower them in public forums and show them that our communities outright reject their hateful views. Or construct monuments and statues of civil rights leaders next to the confederate statues and tell the story about how we prevailed and fought agains their hate, and WE WON. Ignore their rallies and don't give them the exposure or attention that they crave. Speak louder and stronger for equality.

I still think that the Presidents comments that minimized the ugliness of the Nazi's and White Supremacists were wildly inappropriate. He tried to spread the blame to the left for the anti-protests and it deluded his message of condemnation that should have been crystal clear in opposition of the hate groups. He should have spread the message in a better way to fight against it. I don't want to relitigate Trumps actions in this OP but I did want to share my change of opinion and open up a discussion about productive ways to move forward that combats the hate and preserves our right of free speech.

by taking down those statues and removing those flags you are basically playing into their persecution complex and giving them nothing but fodder for recruiting more people to their cause.

There is no reason to remove statues or monuments other than some people just feel a sense of butt hurt when they think or look at them. It's the same revulsion I feel when i walk past some nimrod with a Che shirt on. However I don't feel a need to rip the shirt off or yell at them about it. I sneer, shake my head, and KEEP WALKING.

I disagree, that might be the short term play that they will attempt to capitalize on but in the long term it is removing a source of power and supremacy that exists. Many of those statues were constructed during the Jim Crow era as a check to the blacks that the values of the confederacy still exist. Like I said in the OP whether you take them down or minimize them with "counter" statues of civil rights leaders, I think either is a smart move to combat the hate.

Removing a public portion of our history neither changes that history nor changes the minds of those that embrace it.
The only thing achieved by removing public monuments is giving the left a sense of victory at the expense of attempting to rewrite history through omission

 

[Slade3200]

I saw them as threats, conveyers of hate speech and given their history which has resulted in millions of deaths I was ok with suppressing their speech and shutting down their causes by whatever means necessary. But, I've had a change of heart.

Wow, good for you, you get it. Nice to see.

You probably won't convince the illiberal leftist authoritarians who infest the Democratic Party of this, but any fellow voice in the wilderness is a welcome sight.

The tough part is remembering and advocating for this philosophy across the board, not just on this issue. But if you can do it on this, you can do it on anything.

REAL liberalism welcomes and demands true freedom of expression.
.

Agree'd about real liberalism. But we also need to be careful about how we communicate. The Supremacist groups are now naming themselves around the cause of "free speech" look whats happening in Boston right now. The Free Speech Coalition. You have to be really careful not to conflate the issues. When white supremacists are speaking out it probably isn't the best time to get loud about free speech and defending their rights. I'd rather choose that time to ignore them or speak out about the values that I hold important, which go against what these groups are standing for. There will be time to speak out for free speech but do so in another breath

That was Trumps miss with how he handled the violence in Charlottesville. He pointed the light onto the left groups in the same breath as his condemnation of the hate groups and it watered down the message. Made it look to many like he was saying what he had to about the Supremacist groups but really wanted to call out the Left. I understand how his supporters like that but if you could look at it objectively you would understand how many saw it as a gross display of playing politics when the nation needed a strong moral stand.

 

[Slade3200]

It's been a crazy week and i've engaged in many heated discussions about the events of Charlottesville. I have to admit that i've been greatly conflicted about my anti-racist feelings and my support of free speech. I flirted dangerously close in many discussions to promoting the shutdown of speech for white supremacist groups. I saw them as threats, conveyers of hate speech and given their history which has resulted in millions of deaths I was ok with suppressing their speech and shutting down their causes by whatever means necessary. But, I've had a change of heart.

I think we can be smarter than that and not empower these assholes to strip us of our freedoms. It is a slippery slope once you start suppressing speech. We have legal censorship in a variety of areas which i'm fine with, but shutting down groups from holding rallies, having websites and protesting is only going to lead to bad things. Note that I in no way support any provocation of violence or destruction resulting from rallies or protests. If that happens then shut them down immediately and make arrests.

I would promote fighting these douchebags by ignoring them and minimizing them in a SMART way. Don't lower yourself to fight with them and fuel their cause. Take away their statues and flags that empower them in public forums and show them that our communities outright reject their hateful views. Or construct monuments and statues of civil rights leaders next to the confederate statues and tell the story about how we prevailed and fought agains their hate, and WE WON. Ignore their rallies and don't give them the exposure or attention that they crave. Speak louder and stronger for equality.

I still think that the Presidents comments that minimized the ugliness of the Nazi's and White Supremacists were wildly inappropriate. He tried to spread the blame to the left for the anti-protests and it deluded his message of condemnation that should have been crystal clear in opposition of the hate groups. He should have spread the message in a better way to fight against it. I don't want to relitigate Trumps actions in this OP but I did want to share my change of opinion and open up a discussion about productive ways to move forward that combats the hate and preserves our right of free speech.

I saw them as threats, conveyers of hate speech and given their history which has resulted in millions of deaths I was ok with suppressing their speech and shutting down their causes by whatever means necessary. But, I've had a change of heart.

Did you feel the same way about antifa? Since they are marxists.......and the marxists murdered more people in more countries than the national socialists....then you must also feel the same thing about them...right? you know, to be consistent...right?

I had problems with ANTIFA in Berkley and other campuses when they shut down peoples speech. I don't support that at all. I had problems with BLM when they were chanting to kill cops. I also recognize that there are some non-extreme activists of those groups that work towards anti-discrimination causes that I support. I don't see any causes that the Nazi's and KKK support that I can stand behind. The constant diversion from Racist Nazi's onto the Left groups makes you sound real fishy. Do you understand why?

 

[Slade3200]

I flirted dangerously close in many discussions to promoting the shutdown of speech for white supremacist groups. I saw them as threats, conveyers of hate speech and given their history which has resulted in millions of deaths I was ok with suppressing their speech and shutting down their causes by whatever means necessary. But, I've had a change of heart.

All sides have killed millions.

Furthermore much of what is described as 'White Supremacist" was merely just "Greed"

Slavery for example was about greed, it was a business for goodness sake.

But, the elites have brainwashed the idiotic masses into thinking slavery is White Supremacist.

Oh really? When was the last time that a true White Supremacist wanted to import Blacks into his own backyard like Slave-masters did?

Well you had Nazi's chanting about eradicating Jews from our country just last weekend and you have the KKK and other groups fighting for the right to segregate and live in communities and run businesses that only include whites. You don't find that as reprehensible?

 

[Slade3200]

It's been a crazy week and i've engaged in many heated discussions about the events of Charlottesville. I have to admit that i've been greatly conflicted about my anti-racist feelings and my support of free speech. I flirted dangerously close in many discussions to promoting the shutdown of speech for white supremacist groups. I saw them as threats, conveyers of hate speech and given their history which has resulted in millions of deaths I was ok with suppressing their speech and shutting down their causes by whatever means necessary. But, I've had a change of heart.

I think we can be smarter than that and not empower these assholes to strip us of our freedoms. It is a slippery slope once you start suppressing speech. We have legal censorship in a variety of areas which i'm fine with, but shutting down groups from holding rallies, having websites and protesting is only going to lead to bad things. Note that I in no way support any provocation of violence or destruction resulting from rallies or protests. If that happens then shut them down immediately and make arrests.

I would promote fighting these douchebags by ignoring them and minimizing them in a SMART way. Don't lower yourself to fight with them and fuel their cause. Take away their statues and flags that empower them in public forums and show them that our communities outright reject their hateful views. Or construct monuments and statues of civil rights leaders next to the confederate statues and tell the story about how we prevailed and fought agains their hate, and WE WON. Ignore their rallies and don't give them the exposure or attention that they crave. Speak louder and stronger for equality.

I still think that the Presidents comments that minimized the ugliness of the Nazi's and White Supremacists were wildly inappropriate. He tried to spread the blame to the left for the anti-protests and it deluded his message of condemnation that should have been crystal clear in opposition of the hate groups. He should have spread the message in a better way to fight against it. I don't want to relitigate Trumps actions in this OP but I did want to share my change of opinion and open up a discussion about productive ways to move forward that combats the hate and preserves our right of free speech.

by taking down those statues and removing those flags you are basically playing into their persecution complex and giving them nothing but fodder for recruiting more people to their cause.

There is no reason to remove statues or monuments other than some people just feel a sense of butt hurt when they think or look at them. It's the same revulsion I feel when i walk past some nimrod with a Che shirt on. However I don't feel a need to rip the shirt off or yell at them about it. I sneer, shake my head, and KEEP WALKING.

Also, somebody wearing a shirt is very different than a statue or monument in a public square. You don't see statues of Hitler or his generals or a park named Nazi park in Germany. Doesn't that just make sense?

You're an idiot. Take your ass to Atlanta and find some old-timey men and women to tell you what they think of the Northern army.

The South did not invade the North. The Southern army did not commit atrocities like the Northern army did. Get you some history, son.

Furthermore, there a lot of freed-black slaveowners. While it's true a small handful of white plantation owners had most of the slaves, smaller farms that had slaves were quite likely to be black-owned.

I got me some history and I already pointed to Fort Sumter and the confederates attacking the North. Now if you'd like to make a counter arugment you have to do better than simply saying that i'm wrong. You're gonna have to do a little work and explain why or provide some credible evidence to make your point. Otherwise your just posting empty talking points.

 

[The Original Tree]

Funny how the Left is trying to erase their own racist history so people won't recognize their current racist policies.

 

[Slade3200]

It's been a crazy week and i've engaged in many heated discussions about the events of Charlottesville. I have to admit that i've been greatly conflicted about my anti-racist feelings and my support of free speech. I flirted dangerously close in many discussions to promoting the shutdown of speech for white supremacist groups. I saw them as threats, conveyers of hate speech and given their history which has resulted in millions of deaths I was ok with suppressing their speech and shutting down their causes by whatever means necessary. But, I've had a change of heart.

I think we can be smarter than that and not empower these assholes to strip us of our freedoms. It is a slippery slope once you start suppressing speech. We have legal censorship in a variety of areas which i'm fine with, but shutting down groups from holding rallies, having websites and protesting is only going to lead to bad things. Note that I in no way support any provocation of violence or destruction resulting from rallies or protests. If that happens then shut them down immediately and make arrests.

I would promote fighting these douchebags by ignoring them and minimizing them in a SMART way. Don't lower yourself to fight with them and fuel their cause. Take away their statues and flags that empower them in public forums and show them that our communities outright reject their hateful views. Or construct monuments and statues of civil rights leaders next to the confederate statues and tell the story about how we prevailed and fought agains their hate, and WE WON. Ignore their rallies and don't give them the exposure or attention that they crave. Speak louder and stronger for equality.

I still think that the Presidents comments that minimized the ugliness of the Nazi's and White Supremacists were wildly inappropriate. He tried to spread the blame to the left for the anti-protests and it deluded his message of condemnation that should have been crystal clear in opposition of the hate groups. He should have spread the message in a better way to fight against it. I don't want to relitigate Trumps actions in this OP but I did want to share my change of opinion and open up a discussion about productive ways to move forward that combats the hate and preserves our right of free speech.

by taking down those statues and removing those flags you are basically playing into their persecution complex and giving them nothing but fodder for recruiting more people to their cause.

There is no reason to remove statues or monuments other than some people just feel a sense of butt hurt when they think or look at them. It's the same revulsion I feel when i walk past some nimrod with a Che shirt on. However I don't feel a need to rip the shirt off or yell at them about it. I sneer, shake my head, and KEEP WALKING.

I disagree, that might be the short term play that they will attempt to capitalize on but in the long term it is removing a source of power and supremacy that exists. Many of those statues were constructed during the Jim Crow era as a check to the blacks that the values of the confederacy still exist. Like I said in the OP whether you take them down or minimize them with "counter" statues of civil rights leaders, I think either is a smart move to combat the hate.

You really think taking down statues of confederate generals is erasing history? Please explain that one...

 

[jknowgood]

It's been a crazy week and i've engaged in many heated discussions about the events of Charlottesville. I have to admit that i've been greatly conflicted about my anti-racist feelings and my support of free speech. I flirted dangerously close in many discussions to promoting the shutdown of speech for white supremacist groups. I saw them as threats, conveyers of hate speech and given their history which has resulted in millions of deaths I was ok with suppressing their speech and shutting down their causes by whatever means necessary. But, I've had a change of heart.

I think we can be smarter than that and not empower these assholes to strip us of our freedoms. It is a slippery slope once you start suppressing speech. We have legal censorship in a variety of areas which i'm fine with, but shutting down groups from holding rallies, having websites and protesting is only going to lead to bad things. Note that I in no way support any provocation of violence or destruction resulting from rallies or protests. If that happens then shut them down immediately and make arrests.

I would promote fighting these douchebags by ignoring them and minimizing them in a SMART way. Don't lower yourself to fight with them and fuel their cause. Take away their statues and flags that empower them in public forums and show them that our communities outright reject their hateful views. Or construct monuments and statues of civil rights leaders next to the confederate statues and tell the story about how we prevailed and fought agains their hate, and WE WON. Ignore their rallies and don't give them the exposure or attention that they crave. Speak louder and stronger for equality.

I still think that the Presidents comments that minimized the ugliness of the Nazi's and White Supremacists were wildly inappropriate. He tried to spread the blame to the left for the anti-protests and it deluded his message of condemnation that should have been crystal clear in opposition of the hate groups. He should have spread the message in a better way to fight against it. I don't want to relitigate Trumps actions in this OP but I did want to share my change of opinion and open up a discussion about productive ways to move forward that combats the hate and preserves our right of free speech.

by taking down those statues and removing those flags you are basically playing into their persecution complex and giving them nothing but fodder for recruiting more people to their cause.

There is no reason to remove statues or monuments other than some people just feel a sense of butt hurt when they think or look at them. It's the same revulsion I feel when i walk past some nimrod with a Che shirt on. However I don't feel a need to rip the shirt off or yell at them about it. I sneer, shake my head, and KEEP WALKING.

I disagree, that might be the short term play that they will attempt to capitalize on but in the long term it is removing a source of power and supremacy that exists. Many of those statues were constructed during the Jim Crow era as a check to the blacks that the values of the confederacy still exist. Like I said in the OP whether you take them down or minimize them with "counter" statues of civil rights leaders, I think either is a smart move to combat the hate.

You really think taking down statues of confederate generals is erasing history? Please explain that one...

How is it not.

 

[Slade3200]

The Regressives pretend to support freedom of expression, but they obviously do not.

Because they are not liberals.

So, they have to resort to their standard deflect/pivot/attack approach when challenged.
.

Don't you see that is exactly what the Right is doing with this issue? The problem was a Racist group marching the streets with torches calling for the eradication of jews, people stood up to them and a young lady died. The nation needed a strong message of morality denouncing these hate groups and the deflect/pivot/attack came to call out ANIFA and anti-speech. I agree that those are issues and they were contributing factors that lead to the violence, but it is a deflection from the real source of concern in Charlottesville

 

[Slade3200]

I don't like Racists, but I hate Seditionists. The Democrat Party's Official Position that Assasinating Police Officers, & The President as an Official Policy and Plank in Their Political Platform tells me that we need to Resurrect The Alien & Sedition Acts.

People in The Media and Politicians promoting Sedition and Violence need to be arrested and Prosecuted along with any other group doing the same.

This Nation is Under Siege by Leftists and we are in a War. Nations like Mexico, Syria, Iran, Korea need to be declared as Hostile Nations & The Press needs to be declared Hostile as well and be held liable for hostile rhetoric, defamatory language and the promotion of Fake News.

I get that you don't like the left and they are all scum... But why choose now to make those arguments in the midst of all the racial, white supremacist crap that is going on? When you change the conversation from the racial stuff to the anti left stuff it makes you sound like either a partisan hack or a supremacist sympathizer.

 

[Slade3200]

It's been a crazy week and i've engaged in many heated discussions about the events of Charlottesville. I have to admit that i've been greatly conflicted about my anti-racist feelings and my support of free speech. I flirted dangerously close in many discussions to promoting the shutdown of speech for white supremacist groups. I saw them as threats, conveyers of hate speech and given their history which has resulted in millions of deaths I was ok with suppressing their speech and shutting down their causes by whatever means necessary. But, I've had a change of heart.

I think we can be smarter than that and not empower these assholes to strip us of our freedoms. It is a slippery slope once you start suppressing speech. We have legal censorship in a variety of areas which i'm fine with, but shutting down groups from holding rallies, having websites and protesting is only going to lead to bad things. Note that I in no way support any provocation of violence or destruction resulting from rallies or protests. If that happens then shut them down immediately and make arrests.

I would promote fighting these douchebags by ignoring them and minimizing them in a SMART way. Don't lower yourself to fight with them and fuel their cause. Take away their statues and flags that empower them in public forums and show them that our communities outright reject their hateful views. Or construct monuments and statues of civil rights leaders next to the confederate statues and tell the story about how we prevailed and fought agains their hate, and WE WON. Ignore their rallies and don't give them the exposure or attention that they crave. Speak louder and stronger for equality.

I still think that the Presidents comments that minimized the ugliness of the Nazi's and White Supremacists were wildly inappropriate. He tried to spread the blame to the left for the anti-protests and it deluded his message of condemnation that should have been crystal clear in opposition of the hate groups. He should have spread the message in a better way to fight against it. I don't want to relitigate Trumps actions in this OP but I did want to share my change of opinion and open up a discussion about productive ways to move forward that combats the hate and preserves our right of free speech.

by taking down those statues and removing those flags you are basically playing into their persecution complex and giving them nothing but fodder for recruiting more people to their cause.

There is no reason to remove statues or monuments other than some people just feel a sense of butt hurt when they think or look at them. It's the same revulsion I feel when i walk past some nimrod with a Che shirt on. However I don't feel a need to rip the shirt off or yell at them about it. I sneer, shake my head, and KEEP WALKING.

I disagree, that might be the short term play that they will attempt to capitalize on but in the long term it is removing a source of power and supremacy that exists. Many of those statues were constructed during the Jim Crow era as a check to the blacks that the values of the confederacy still exist. Like I said in the OP whether you take them down or minimize them with "counter" statues of civil rights leaders, I think either is a smart move to combat the hate.

Removing a public portion of our history neither changes that history nor changes the minds of those that embrace it.
The only thing achieved by removing public monuments is giving the left a sense of victory at the expense of attempting to rewrite history through omission

How is removing statues of confederate generals a victory for the Left? Please explain that for me.... Wasn't it the Republicans that fought against the south and fought against ending slavery? Wouldn't these statues represent the Democrats that wanted to succeed and keep slavery? Didn't the Democrats start the KKK and institute Jim Crow laws in the south. Wasn't it the Democrats that erected these statues and hand the confederate flag to remind blacks in the south that their supremacist values are still alive and well?

 

[Slade3200]

Funny how the Left is trying to erase their own racist history so people won't recognize their current racist policies.

Taking down statues isn't erasing anything, it is stopping the glorification and celebration of these figures in public spaces. The "erase history" talking point is so weak and overused.

 

[2aguy]

It's been a crazy week and i've engaged in many heated discussions about the events of Charlottesville. I have to admit that i've been greatly conflicted about my anti-racist feelings and my support of free speech. I flirted dangerously close in many discussions to promoting the shutdown of speech for white supremacist groups. I saw them as threats, conveyers of hate speech and given their history which has resulted in millions of deaths I was ok with suppressing their speech and shutting down their causes by whatever means necessary. But, I've had a change of heart.

I think we can be smarter than that and not empower these assholes to strip us of our freedoms. It is a slippery slope once you start suppressing speech. We have legal censorship in a variety of areas which i'm fine with, but shutting down groups from holding rallies, having websites and protesting is only going to lead to bad things. Note that I in no way support any provocation of violence or destruction resulting from rallies or protests. If that happens then shut them down immediately and make arrests.

I would promote fighting these douchebags by ignoring them and minimizing them in a SMART way. Don't lower yourself to fight with them and fuel their cause. Take away their statues and flags that empower them in public forums and show them that our communities outright reject their hateful views. Or construct monuments and statues of civil rights leaders next to the confederate statues and tell the story about how we prevailed and fought agains their hate, and WE WON. Ignore their rallies and don't give them the exposure or attention that they crave. Speak louder and stronger for equality.

I still think that the Presidents comments that minimized the ugliness of the Nazi's and White Supremacists were wildly inappropriate. He tried to spread the blame to the left for the anti-protests and it deluded his message of condemnation that should have been crystal clear in opposition of the hate groups. He should have spread the message in a better way to fight against it. I don't want to relitigate Trumps actions in this OP but I did want to share my change of opinion and open up a discussion about productive ways to move forward that combats the hate and preserves our right of free speech.

I saw them as threats, conveyers of hate speech and given their history which has resulted in millions of deaths I was ok with suppressing their speech and shutting down their causes by whatever means necessary. But, I've had a change of heart.

Did you feel the same way about antifa? Since they are marxists.......and the marxists murdered more people in more countries than the national socialists....then you must also feel the same thing about them...right? you know, to be consistent...right?

I had problems with ANTIFA in Berkley and other campuses when they shut down peoples speech. I don't support that at all. I had problems with BLM when they were chanting to kill cops. I also recognize that there are some non-extreme activists of those groups that work towards anti-discrimination causes that I support. I don't see any causes that the Nazi's and KKK support that I can stand behind. The constant diversion from Racist Nazi's onto the Left groups makes you sound real fishy. Do you understand why?

yeah...because the left wing is trying to hide their actual violence v. the one incident with about 100 white racists that we have had in about 20 years....vs. the continous violent actions of the left from attacking peaceful rally attendees to murdering police officers....they want to hide the actual violence of the left, with this one public incident of the white racists.

 

[2aguy]

It's been a crazy week and i've engaged in many heated discussions about the events of Charlottesville. I have to admit that i've been greatly conflicted about my anti-racist feelings and my support of free speech. I flirted dangerously close in many discussions to promoting the shutdown of speech for white supremacist groups. I saw them as threats, conveyers of hate speech and given their history which has resulted in millions of deaths I was ok with suppressing their speech and shutting down their causes by whatever means necessary. But, I've had a change of heart.

I think we can be smarter than that and not empower these assholes to strip us of our freedoms. It is a slippery slope once you start suppressing speech. We have legal censorship in a variety of areas which i'm fine with, but shutting down groups from holding rallies, having websites and protesting is only going to lead to bad things. Note that I in no way support any provocation of violence or destruction resulting from rallies or protests. If that happens then shut them down immediately and make arrests.

I would promote fighting these douchebags by ignoring them and minimizing them in a SMART way. Don't lower yourself to fight with them and fuel their cause. Take away their statues and flags that empower them in public forums and show them that our communities outright reject their hateful views. Or construct monuments and statues of civil rights leaders next to the confederate statues and tell the story about how we prevailed and fought agains their hate, and WE WON. Ignore their rallies and don't give them the exposure or attention that they crave. Speak louder and stronger for equality.

I still think that the Presidents comments that minimized the ugliness of the Nazi's and White Supremacists were wildly inappropriate. He tried to spread the blame to the left for the anti-protests and it deluded his message of condemnation that should have been crystal clear in opposition of the hate groups. He should have spread the message in a better way to fight against it. I don't want to relitigate Trumps actions in this OP but I did want to share my change of opinion and open up a discussion about productive ways to move forward that combats the hate and preserves our right of free speech.

These racist groups......are so small in size that what you saw in Virginia is pretty much all of them in the entire country.....they get more coverage than they actually deserve because the democrats in the press want to use them to smear Trump.

The President did not minimize the racists......he named them.....that he also called out the actual violence by the antifa and black lives matter thugs is what caused you guys to go nuts......

Notice.....the only ones trying to silence free speech in Virginia....was antifa and black lives matter......right? Did you see the white racists stopping bernie or hilary rallies? Did you see white racists preventing anyone from speaking on college campuses? Did you see white racists attacking non violen, peaceful rally attendees anywhere in the country in the last two years, did you see the white racists attacking police with rocks, pop cans, and clubs?

Who did you see doing all of that......antifa, and black lives matter.....

I can't stand racists of any kind.....but the left seems to think black racism is okay....and that is the problem...they don't even see that this is a problem....

All racism is stupid....but the left believes in racism, both the white racists and the black racists were in Virginia last weekend...both need to be called out.

Which conservative or Right news outlet that you respect did not cover Charlottesville? I'm sick of the finger pointing to the Liberal media, it's a scapegoat. The Right media covers the same shit, just with a different spin.

It isn't the conservative media that are the problem....it is CBS, NBC, ABC, NPR, PBS, MSNBC, CNN and all the other left wing outlets that hide and lie about black lives matter and antifa....those outlets still dwarf conservative outlets as far as viewership goes....and the conservative outlets don't hide their bias...the left wing ones claim to be fair...they aren't.

 

[2aguy]

I saw them as threats, conveyers of hate speech and given their history which has resulted in millions of deaths I was ok with suppressing their speech and shutting down their causes by whatever means necessary. But, I've had a change of heart.

Wow, good for you, you get it. Nice to see.

You probably won't convince the illiberal leftist authoritarians who infest the Democratic Party of this, but any fellow voice in the wilderness is a welcome sight.

The tough part is remembering and advocating for this philosophy across the board, not just on this issue. But if you can do it on this, you can do it on anything.

REAL liberalism welcomes and demands true freedom of expression.
.

Agree'd about real liberalism. But we also need to be careful about how we communicate. The Supremacist groups are now naming themselves around the cause of "free speech" look whats happening in Boston right now. The Free Speech Coalition. You have to be really careful not to conflate the issues. When white supremacists are speaking out it probably isn't the best time to get loud about free speech and defending their rights. I'd rather choose that time to ignore them or speak out about the values that I hold important, which go against what these groups are standing for. There will be time to speak out for free speech but do so in another breath

That was Trumps miss with how he handled the violence in Charlottesville. He pointed the light onto the left groups in the same breath as his condemnation of the hate groups and it watered down the message. Made it look to many like he was saying what he had to about the Supremacist groups but really wanted to call out the Left. I understand how his supporters like that but if you could look at it objectively you would understand how many saw it as a gross display of playing politics when the nation needed a strong moral stand.

I looked at it objectively...he called out each white racist group by name, and mentioned the left wing groups without their names...... he said everything everyone wanted to hear, and then he brought out the truth about left wing groups and they had a cow...