Reconstructing Q: Some Research Done

[Picaro]

Q's existence is an interesting topic for the historical scholar types; I'm personally inclined toward the view it or several existed, and that the bulk of it is accurately reflected in the three synoptic Gospels and that proto-orthodoxy existed well before the Jewish Revolt, but in any case this site offers some interesting opinions as well as a bibliography of the better books on the issue. I have no idea what Sloan's personal theological leanings are, and don't particularly care, the site is worth a scan at least. At worst much of the info confirms yet again the Gospels were all written by separate people and not, as many ignorant idiots claim, some 'con man' or other.

Home - Reconstructing Q

Q: Sayings Source or Narrative Gospel?
This website is devoted to the research into Q by David B. Sloan, Ph.D. For the last 150 years, most Gospels scholars have been convinced that when Matthew and Luke wrote their gospels they used Mark's Gospel as a source, but they did not use each other's gospel. When Matthew and Luke share material that they did not derive from Mark, they are dependent upon a now-lost source, which scholars have named Q. Since most of the non-Markan material Matthew and Luke share is sayings of Jesus, this source has been assumed to be a collection of sayings or speeches of Jesus. Dr. Sloan argues that there are three problems with current ideas about Q:

Sloan's views here. I haven't had time to read this one yet.

http://reconstructingq.com/maximalist-q.pdf

 

[HaShev]

I always wondered if Q which is said to be written by a woman, is the same text the Sabbaen's sect called Mandeans (followers of John) claimed was written by a wicked woman and burned hence Q disappeared, but survived in later rehashed contradicting stories by many different scribes writting in the names of the claimed apostles.
THE MANDEANS as surviving followers of John seen as the righteous one, claimed Jesus (or the figure used for part of the Jesus character) was the wicked false prophet who had Salome (his friend and follower) lead John to be slain so he could steal his offshoot cults flock.
The Mandeans teachings of physical light symbolism is exactly as in the NT &
Christian precepts.
John was the leader of this Hanotzrim cult that believed their god was mystical light between the sun and earth, and when he was murdered, Jesus took over his sect and became the leader.
Well the Mandeans believe Jesus plotted that scenerio thus consider him the false prophet and the book by the woman was thus burned as wicked writings. Hence putting 2+2 together, that book they burned might have been the central source text Q which contradicts cause each scribe remembers pieces or reconstructs it differently=pass the story down the line syndrome.

 

[irosie91]

Q's existence is an interesting topic for the historical scholar types; I'm personally inclined toward the view it or several existed, and that the bulk of it is accurately reflected in the three synoptic Gospels and that proto-orthodoxy existed well before the Jewish Revolt, but in any case this site offers some interesting opinions as well as a bibliography of the better books on the issue. I have no idea what Sloan's personal theological leanings are, and don't particularly care, the site is worth a scan at least. At worst much of the info confirms yet again the Gospels were all written by separate people and not, as many ignorant idiots claim, some 'con man' or other.

Home - Reconstructing Q

Q: Sayings Source or Narrative Gospel?
This website is devoted to the research into Q by David B. Sloan, Ph.D. For the last 150 years, most Gospels scholars have been convinced that when Matthew and Luke wrote their gospels they used Mark's Gospel as a source, but they did not use each other's gospel. When Matthew and Luke share material that they did not derive from Mark, they are dependent upon a now-lost source, which scholars have named Q. Since most of the non-Markan material Matthew and Luke share is sayings of Jesus, this source has been assumed to be a collection of sayings or speeches of Jesus. Dr. Sloan argues that there are three problems with current ideas about Q:

Sloan's views here. I haven't had time to read this one yet.

http://reconstructingq.com/maximalist-q.pdf

I never encountered anyone who suggested that the gospels were NOT written by several different people------nor that the NT was written by one solitary "conman" --------the issue of the NICEAN council ------convened by the genocidal monster
CONSTANTINE ------was the REDACTION of the existing
writings. That the end product was driven by the agenda of Roman imperialism is OBVIOUS. -------a very compelling issue is WATDAHELL did they do with the original writings? ------why does NONE OF ""Q"" exist-----not a shred

 

[alang1216]

Q's existence is an interesting topic for the historical scholar types; I'm personally inclined toward the view it or several existed, and that the bulk of it is accurately reflected in the three synoptic Gospels and that proto-orthodoxy existed well before the Jewish Revolt, but in any case this site offers some interesting opinions as well as a bibliography of the better books on the issue. I have no idea what Sloan's personal theological leanings are, and don't particularly care, the site is worth a scan at least. At worst much of the info confirms yet again the Gospels were all written by separate people and not, as many ignorant idiots claim, some 'con man' or other.

Home - Reconstructing Q

Q: Sayings Source or Narrative Gospel?
This website is devoted to the research into Q by David B. Sloan, Ph.D. For the last 150 years, most Gospels scholars have been convinced that when Matthew and Luke wrote their gospels they used Mark's Gospel as a source, but they did not use each other's gospel. When Matthew and Luke share material that they did not derive from Mark, they are dependent upon a now-lost source, which scholars have named Q. Since most of the non-Markan material Matthew and Luke share is sayings of Jesus, this source has been assumed to be a collection of sayings or speeches of Jesus. Dr. Sloan argues that there are three problems with current ideas about Q:

Sloan's views here. I haven't had time to read this one yet.

http://reconstructingq.com/maximalist-q.pdf

I never encountered anyone who suggested that the gospels were NOT written by several different people------nor that the NT was written by one solitary "conman" --------the issue of the NICEAN council ------convened by the genocidal monster
CONSTANTINE ------was the REDACTION of the existing
writings. That the end product was driven by the agenda of Roman imperialism is OBVIOUS. -------a very compelling issue is WATDAHELL did they do with the original writings? ------why does NONE OF ""Q"" exist-----not a shred

re: why does NONE OF ""Q"" exist-----not a shred
My, uneducated guess it that Q was never a book but a series of oral stories that were being passed around the Christian world. Probably edited to conform to local church doctrine and added to for theological emphasis. Some of them got to both Matthew and Luke, some to only one or the other. The different birth narratives might be an example of Luke hearing one story and Matthew a totally different version.

 

[irosie91]

Q's existence is an interesting topic for the historical scholar types; I'm personally inclined toward the view it or several existed, and that the bulk of it is accurately reflected in the three synoptic Gospels and that proto-orthodoxy existed well before the Jewish Revolt, but in any case this site offers some interesting opinions as well as a bibliography of the better books on the issue. I have no idea what Sloan's personal theological leanings are, and don't particularly care, the site is worth a scan at least. At worst much of the info confirms yet again the Gospels were all written by separate people and not, as many ignorant idiots claim, some 'con man' or other.

Home - Reconstructing Q

Q: Sayings Source or Narrative Gospel?
This website is devoted to the research into Q by David B. Sloan, Ph.D. For the last 150 years, most Gospels scholars have been convinced that when Matthew and Luke wrote their gospels they used Mark's Gospel as a source, but they did not use each other's gospel. When Matthew and Luke share material that they did not derive from Mark, they are dependent upon a now-lost source, which scholars have named Q. Since most of the non-Markan material Matthew and Luke share is sayings of Jesus, this source has been assumed to be a collection of sayings or speeches of Jesus. Dr. Sloan argues that there are three problems with current ideas about Q:

Sloan's views here. I haven't had time to read this one yet.

http://reconstructingq.com/maximalist-q.pdf

I never encountered anyone who suggested that the gospels were NOT written by several different people------nor that the NT was written by one solitary "conman" --------the issue of the NICEAN council ------convened by the genocidal monster
CONSTANTINE ------was the REDACTION of the existing
writings. That the end product was driven by the agenda of Roman imperialism is OBVIOUS. -------a very compelling issue is WATDAHELL did they do with the original writings? ------why does NONE OF ""Q"" exist-----not a shred

re: why does NONE OF ""Q"" exist-----not a shred
My, uneducated guess it that Q was never a book but a series of oral stories that were being passed around the Christian world. Probably edited to conform to local church doctrine and added to for theological emphasis. Some of them got to both Matthew and Luke, some to only one or the other. The different birth narratives might be an example of Luke hearing one story and Matthew a totally different version.

right----legends about a charismatic person-----like Davy Crockett who did exist but probably did not kill a bear at
age 3------or Robin Hood----who managed to knock the man----three times bigger ---Little John---into the lake. ---for even
better analogies------get to know the stories about the feats
the CHASSIDIC REBBES--------they existed too. ----in fact
expect more "miracles" from that group

 

[Picaro]

So far only some orthodox Jewish bigots and some Gnostic conspiracy theorist have replies; so far so good. The rest must have found the links interesting. Maybe someone actually educated will come along and offer some informative opinions. Of course, almost no originals of anything exist, they deteriorate over time, even clay and stone tablets, so that silly point is just dissembling and hand-waving.

Carbon Dating Confirms World's Oldest Torah Scroll

Carbon Dating Confirms World's Oldest Torah Scroll

A scroll at the University of Bologna is shown to be 800 years old.

...

 

[irosie91]

So far only some orthodox Jewish bigots and some Gnostic conspiracy theorist have replies; so far so good. The rest must have found the links interesting. Maybe someone actually educated will come along and offer some informative opinions. Of course, almost no originals of anything exist, they deteriorate over time, even clay and stone tablets, so that silly point is just dissembling and hand-waving.

Carbon Dating Confirms World's Oldest Torah Scroll

Carbon Dating Confirms World's Oldest Torah Scroll

A scroll at the University of Bologna is shown to be 800 years old.

...

Homer's ODYSSEY still exists------Homer wrote it----line by
line in couplets. It was written about 2800 years ago----of course the ORIGINAL does not exist -----just copies. No one thought Q important enough to make copies?. I mentioned the Chassidic Rebbes and the legends associated with them.
The really big shot rebbe of history is known as "Baal Shem Tov"---<< an ascribed title. born circa 1700 My hubby born in a third world shariah shit hole----where there were no printing presses-----all the books his community had were hand written-------told me that his GREAT GRANDFATHER---was a student of "Baal Shem tov" and read his writings INCESSANTLY ------sheesh "oh yeah---from where did he get the books"??? said I. answer-------"handwritten"------ me----"how did they travel" He----"hand to hand" me "SHEEESH---like Q" PS---somehow hubby knows a lot of the baal shem tov legends---HIS father told him------a reciter of "Q" Baal Shem Tov----was born in Poland---thousands of miles from hubby's birth place. Luke was born in Greece

 

[Picaro]

A partial reconstruction effort at it here; haven't compared it to the versions on the OP, so it may be a redundant link ...

IQP Q Text (English)

I don't buy some of the premises here, myself; I think there were more than one or two, perhaps ans many as four narratives, and the originals didn't finally.disintegrate until many many years later.

 

[Indeependent]

So far only some orthodox Jewish bigots and some Gnostic conspiracy theorist have replies; so far so good. The rest must have found the links interesting. Maybe someone actually educated will come along and offer some informative opinions. Of course, almost no originals of anything exist, they deteriorate over time, even clay and stone tablets, so that silly point is just dissembling and hand-waving.

Carbon Dating Confirms World's Oldest Torah Scroll

Carbon Dating Confirms World's Oldest Torah Scroll

A scroll at the University of Bologna is shown to be 800 years old.

...

The paper of today is of far superior quality than that of even 1,000 years ago.
Not to mention that pages were sown together using thread made out of rotting chicken and cow meat.
Who expects to find original, ancient manuscripts in pristine condition?
Only fools.

 

[irosie91]

So far only some orthodox Jewish bigots and some Gnostic conspiracy theorist have replies; so far so good. The rest must have found the links interesting. Maybe someone actually educated will come along and offer some informative opinions. Of course, almost no originals of anything exist, they deteriorate over time, even clay and stone tablets, so that silly point is just dissembling and hand-waving.

Carbon Dating Confirms World's Oldest Torah Scroll

Carbon Dating Confirms World's Oldest Torah Scroll

A scroll at the University of Bologna is shown to be 800 years old.

...

The paper of today is of far superior quality than that of even 1,000 years ago.
Not to mention that pages were sown together using thread made out of rotting chicken and cow meat.
Who expects to find original, ancient manuscripts in pristine condition?
Only fools.

copies-----important written stuff got COPIED----or were stored carefully "rotting meat"?? ya mean ---GUT AND
SINEW?--------its not meat. Meat is muscle. Some stuff was written on shards of pottery

 

[irosie91]

I always wondered if Q which is said to be written by a woman, is the same text the Sabbaen's sect called Mandeans (followers of John) claimed was written by a wicked woman and burned hence Q disappeared, but survived in later rehashed contradicting stories by many different scribes writting in the names of the claimed apostles.
THE MANDEANS as surviving followers of John seen as the righteous one, claimed Jesus (or the figure used for part of the Jesus character) was the wicked false prophet who had Salome (his friend and follower) lead John to be slain so he could steal his offshoot cults flock.
The Mandeans teachings of physical light symbolism is exactly as in the NT &
Christian precepts.
John was the leader of this Hanotzrim cult that believed their god was mystical light between the sun and earth, and when he was murdered, Jesus took over his sect and became the leader.
Well the Mandeans believe Jesus plotted that scenerio thus consider him the false prophet and the book by the woman was thus burned as wicked writings. Hence putting 2+2 together, that book they burned might have been the central source text Q which contradicts cause each scribe remembers pieces or reconstructs it differently=pass the story down the line syndrome.

oh GOOD John is ISAIAH. He's back? is he sober?

 

[alang1216]

So far only some orthodox Jewish bigots and some Gnostic conspiracy theorist have replies; so far so good. The rest must have found the links interesting. Maybe someone actually educated will come along and offer some informative opinions. Of course, almost no originals of anything exist, they deteriorate over time, even clay and stone tablets, so that silly point is just dissembling and hand-waving.

Carbon Dating Confirms World's Oldest Torah Scroll

Carbon Dating Confirms World's Oldest Torah Scroll

A scroll at the University of Bologna is shown to be 800 years old.

...

The paper of today is of far superior quality than that of even 1,000 years ago.
Not to mention that pages were sown together using thread made out of rotting chicken and cow meat.
Who expects to find original, ancient manuscripts in pristine condition?
Only fools.

Paper was only used much later, old manuscripts were written on parchment or papyrus. The Dead Sea Scrolls were written between 150 B.C. and 70 A.D. A papyrus Tallet found at Wadi al-Jarf from 2,600 B.C., the world's oldest, refers to the “horizon of Khufu,” or the Great Pyramid at Giza.

 

[Indeependent]

So far only some orthodox Jewish bigots and some Gnostic conspiracy theorist have replies; so far so good. The rest must have found the links interesting. Maybe someone actually educated will come along and offer some informative opinions. Of course, almost no originals of anything exist, they deteriorate over time, even clay and stone tablets, so that silly point is just dissembling and hand-waving.

Carbon Dating Confirms World's Oldest Torah Scroll

Carbon Dating Confirms World's Oldest Torah Scroll

A scroll at the University of Bologna is shown to be 800 years old.

...

The paper of today is of far superior quality than that of even 1,000 years ago.
Not to mention that pages were sown together using thread made out of rotting chicken and cow meat.
Who expects to find original, ancient manuscripts in pristine condition?
Only fools.

copies-----important written stuff got COPIED----or were stored carefully "rotting meat"?? ya mean ---GUT AND
SINEW?--------its not meat. Meat is muscle. Some stuff was written on shards of pottery

"rotting meat" - a senior moment; I couldn't remember "GUT AND SINEW"

I asked my Rabbi why we have no tefillin from the 1st Temple and he explained to me what it was made of.

 

[Picaro]

So far only some orthodox Jewish bigots and some Gnostic conspiracy theorist have replies; so far so good. The rest must have found the links interesting. Maybe someone actually educated will come along and offer some informative opinions. Of course, almost no originals of anything exist, they deteriorate over time, even clay and stone tablets, so that silly point is just dissembling and hand-waving.

Carbon Dating Confirms World's Oldest Torah Scroll

Carbon Dating Confirms World's Oldest Torah Scroll

A scroll at the University of Bologna is shown to be 800 years old.

...

The paper of today is of far superior quality than that of even 1,000 years ago.
Not to mention that pages were sown together using thread made out of rotting chicken and cow meat.
Who expects to find original, ancient manuscripts in pristine condition?
Only fools.

Yes, and even that deteriorates by exposure to air over time. Most of the remains of old parchment and papyrus is from extremely dry areas, usually buried, and even that is is in bits and pieces that start falling apart almost immediately and has to be rushed to specialists who have to take pains to store them in similar conditions, and only take them out to be examined and recorded very very carefully. But don't expect scientific illiterates to know that, since they like to pick and choose among stuff in order to feed conspiracy theories, i.e. their 'standards' change to suit their fantasies, but those 'standards' suddenly don't apply to anything that contradicts whatever BS they hope to spread. There were so many copies of the New testament books spread over a wide area by the second century, some 20,000 or so, it was impossible to suddenly throw in any fakes, but never mind that, we're supposed to believe that after centuries of persecutions and massacres defying Emperors and other rulers da Evul Xians just suddenly just rolled over for Constantine and they let him tell them what to write and stuff; you know, ridiculous idiocy like that ...

The orthodox versions prevailed because they were the originals and the most widespread to begin with, not because they were afraid of some ruler or other and they up and changed it all around. these morons think there was a 'Catholic Church n stuff telling everybody what to do' in 325 A.D. or something, never mind the Syrian churches were the main bastions of doctrine and preservation, not the church in Rome, which wasn't even the main capital during the Tetrarchy and after. They didn't roll over for their worst persecutors like Diocletian or the other three Tetrarchs, but magically they did whatever Constantine said, for some reason, mostly entirely in the imaginary fantasies of conspirards.

 

[HaShev]

Picaro inadvertantly put a standard on the claimed witnesses of Jesus legend, since the Mandeans have just the same
EQUAL RIGHTS to their accounts (being survivors of the John Legend) as those who wrote in the names of those claimed to exist in Jesus supposed era (who actually didn't).
So when Picaro uses terms like conspiracy and Gnosticsm, he has to reflect that same standard to his version of the Jesus
mythology qnd Q theories.
You can't have it both ways, once you set the standard of reason you are bound by your own irrational logic. When you don't, it's called HYPOCRACY. In this case the hypocracy was done as a demonization of opponent views=ad hominem response by someone made "wormwood" by
the fallen (morning) star mythology.

 

[Indeependent]

So far only some orthodox Jewish bigots and some Gnostic conspiracy theorist have replies; so far so good. The rest must have found the links interesting. Maybe someone actually educated will come along and offer some informative opinions. Of course, almost no originals of anything exist, they deteriorate over time, even clay and stone tablets, so that silly point is just dissembling and hand-waving.

Carbon Dating Confirms World's Oldest Torah Scroll

Carbon Dating Confirms World's Oldest Torah Scroll

A scroll at the University of Bologna is shown to be 800 years old.

...

The paper of today is of far superior quality than that of even 1,000 years ago.
Not to mention that pages were sown together using thread made out of rotting chicken and cow meat.
Who expects to find original, ancient manuscripts in pristine condition?
Only fools.

Yes, and even that deteriorates by exposure to air over time. Most of the remains of old parchment and papyrus is from extremely dry areas, usually buried, and even that is is in bits and pieces that start falling apart almost immediately and has to be rushed to specialists who have to take pains to store them in similar conditions, and only take them out to be examined and recorded very very carefully. But don't expect scientific illiterates to know that, since they like to pick and choose among stuff in order to feed conspiracy theories, i.e. their 'standards' change to suit their fantasies, but those 'standards' suddenly don't apply to anything that contradicts whatever BS they hope to spread. There were so many copies of the New testament books spread over a wide area by the second century, some 20,000 or so, it was impossible to suddenly throw in any fakes, but never mind that, we're supposed to believe that after centuries of persecutions and massacres defying Emperors and other rulers da Evul Xians just suddenly just rolled over for Constantine and they let him tell them what to write and stuff; you know, ridiculous idiocy like that.

It is common practice for self-hating Jews, agnostics and atheists to claim that all religion is based on myth because we haven't found the Leather Bound original copy with acid free paper.
Not to mention the copy of the absolutely original document on the ancient Cloud.

 

[Indeependent]

Picaro inadvertantly put a standard on the claimed witnesses of Jesus legend, since the Mandeans have just the same
EQUAL RIGHTS to their accounts (being survivors of the John Legend) as those who wrote in the names of those claimed to exist in Jesus supposed era (who actually didn't).
So when Picaro uses terms like conspiracy and Gnosticsm, he has to reflect that same standard to his version of the Jesus
mythology qnd Q theories.
You can't have it both ways, once you set the standard of reason you are bound by your own irrational logic. When you don't, it's called HYPOCRACY.

I'm sure you're a nice person but I find your postings to be virtually incomprehensible.

 

[Picaro]

Picaro inadvertantly put a standard on the claimed witnesses of Jesus legend, since the Mandeans have just the same
EQUAL RIGHTS to their accounts (being survivors of the John Legend) as those who wrote in the names of those claimed to exist in Jesus supposed era (who actually didn't).
So when Picaro uses terms like conspiracy and Gnosticsm, he has to reflect that same standard to his version of the Jesus
mythology qnd Q theories.
You can't have it both ways, once you set the standard of reason you are bound by your own irrational logic. When you don't, it's called HYPOCRACY.

I'm sure you're a nice person but I find your postings to be virtually incomprehensible.

He's just a troll and Xian bashing bigot, is all. Pay no attention to his ridiculous bloviatiing; it's entirely made up garbage. Same for the 'gnostic' rubbish. The Gnostic stuff has been deconstructed and proven to be false for a long time now; see Darrell Bock and others for that evidence. Basically all they have is Elaine Pagels building a career for herself selling books to conspiracy theorists and the ignorant. Bock's The Missing Gospels is a short book written for laymen on the issues surrounding the Bauer theories and how ridiculous the Gnostic claims are. He has written several academic volumes on the topic, as have several others. But they're not movie material like Dan Brown's fiction, real buzz killers for conspiratards, so they don't get promoted by Amazon and Hollywood.

 

[Indeependent]

Picaro inadvertantly put a standard on the claimed witnesses of Jesus legend, since the Mandeans have just the same
EQUAL RIGHTS to their accounts (being survivors of the John Legend) as those who wrote in the names of those claimed to exist in Jesus supposed era (who actually didn't).
So when Picaro uses terms like conspiracy and Gnosticsm, he has to reflect that same standard to his version of the Jesus
mythology qnd Q theories.
You can't have it both ways, once you set the standard of reason you are bound by your own irrational logic. When you don't, it's called HYPOCRACY.

I'm sure you're a nice person but I find your postings to be virtually incomprehensible.

He's just a troll and Xian bashing bigot, is all. Pay no attention to his ridiculous bloviatiing; it's entirely made up garbage. Same for the 'gnostic' rubbish. The Gnostic stuff has been deconstructed and proven to be false for a long time now; see Darrell Bock and others for that evidence. Basically all they have is Elaine Pagels building a career for herself selling books to conspiracy theorists and the ignorant. Bock's The Missing Gospels is a short book written for laymen on the issues surrounding the Bauer theories and how ridiculous the Gnostic claims are. He has written several academic volumes on the topic, as have several others. But they're not movie material like Dan Brown's fiction, real buzz killers for conspiratards, so they don't get promoted by Amazon and Hollywood.

Thanks for the info...his posts are beyond boring.

 

[shimon]

Picaro inadvertantly put a standard on the claimed witnesses of Jesus legend, since the Mandeans have just the same
EQUAL RIGHTS to their accounts (being survivors of the John Legend) as those who wrote in the names of those claimed to exist in Jesus supposed era (who actually didn't).
So when Picaro uses terms like conspiracy and Gnosticsm, he has to reflect that same standard to his version of the Jesus
mythology qnd Q theories.
You can't have it both ways, once you set the standard of reason you are bound by your own irrational logic. When you don't, it's called HYPOCRACY.

I'm sure you're a nice person but I find your postings to be virtually incomprehensible.

He's just a troll and Xian bashing bigot, is all. Pay no attention to his ridiculous bloviatiing; it's entirely made up garbage. Same for the 'gnostic' rubbish. The Gnostic stuff has been deconstructed and proven to be false for a long time now; see Darrell Bock and others for that evidence. Basically all they have is Elaine Pagels building a career for herself selling books to conspiracy theorists and the ignorant. Bock's The Missing Gospels is a short book written for laymen on the issues surrounding the Bauer theories and how ridiculous the Gnostic claims are. He has written several academic volumes on the topic, as have several others. But they're not movie material like Dan Brown's fiction, real buzz killers for conspiratards, so they don't get promoted by Amazon and Hollywood.

Thanks for the info...his posts are beyond boring.

Really Independent?.You find his posts boring.. Is that Groucho Marx sarcasm or are you being serious or are you wearing your teffilin too tightly and need the Rabbi to loosen them a bit because they are cutting off your circulation...We all enjoy a little humour now and then...