Report: Level of poverty growing

[boedicca]

Your bs has got to be the worse I've ever seen posted. FREEDOM doesn't put food on the table or a roof over your head or keep you healthy enough to go out and look for work!

"Those who would give up Essential Liberty to purchase a little Temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety." - Benjamin Franklin

 

[MaggieMae]

You are naive peepers.

EVERYONE pays SS up to 106,400 in income.

Just becuase the rich got rich, does not mean that it is unfair.

You too, have the right to beome rich.

You and Dave keep skewing the debate. Nobody is talking about the "right" to become rich or the "freedom" allowed everybody to pursue whatever they define as success. What we're arguing is that there are millions of people who can never, ever afford to do anything to better their existence because of their lack of skill, education to develop that skill, and extra money to invest in that education. You seem to believe those are ridiculous considerations.

And that is a myth... COMPLETE and TOTAL myth... anyone can do what they need to do because of that freedom... we do not exist, the government does not exist, to do it for you or to take care of your personal responsibilities and needs when you fail....

You and your ILK choose to portray the 'poor' as helpless... not us

Your considerations are ridiculous when you think everyone else owes it to them as adults... charity to help, GREAT, that is VOLUNTARY and I support many.... forced wealth redistribution??Nope.. that is not in line with a free society

Such crap. With an arrogant, denigrating and insulting attitude like yours, I can just bet you voluntarily support charities. Someone like you would much prefer to prance around some soup kitchen and preach to the homeless. "LOOK AT ME, LOOK AT ME"!!!

 

[boedicca]

Such crap. With an arrogant, denigrating and insulting attitude like yours, I can just bet you voluntarily support charities. Someone like you would much prefer to prance around some soup kitchen and preach to the homeless. "LOOK AT ME, LOOK AT ME"!!!

Your definitions of Arrogant, Denigrating, and Insulting are very odd.

You don't believe the poor have the right or ability to take care of themselves and improve their lots in life. How magnanimous.

 

[MaggieMae]

I sure hope ranting about this brings you some level of satisfaction, because government's attempt to provide assistance for those who can PROVE they need it to survive isn't about to end. By your persistent characterization of such people as being lazy fucks merely advertises a prima donna arrogance and a blatant ignorance of the world around you.

The sad fact that you ignore is that many of them have had the initiative completely bred out of them via multi-generational government dependency.
You're absolutely correct. The reasons WHY have not yet been explored here.

I live in Oakland CA, which used to have a vibrant, successful black middle class, many of whom owned small businesses. Thanks to the family destroying policies of the Great Society programs, they have been replaced by single moms with multiple children oft sired by different fathers who grow up into illiterate gangbangers. It's sad. They've been put onto an urban plantation. What a waste of life.

That is what making people dependent on the government instead of themselves achieves.

......

 

[Annie]

You and Dave keep skewing the debate. Nobody is talking about the "right" to become rich or the "freedom" allowed everybody to pursue whatever they define as success. What we're arguing is that there are millions of people who can never, ever afford to do anything to better their existence because of their lack of skill, education to develop that skill, and extra money to invest in that education. You seem to believe those are ridiculous considerations.

And that is a myth... COMPLETE and TOTAL myth... anyone can do what they need to do because of that freedom... we do not exist, the government does not exist, to do it for you or to take care of your personal responsibilities and needs when you fail....

You and your ILK choose to portray the 'poor' as helpless... not us

Your considerations are ridiculous when you think everyone else owes it to them as adults... charity to help, GREAT, that is VOLUNTARY and I support many.... forced wealth redistribution??Nope.. that is not in line with a free society

Such crap. With an arrogant, denigrating and insulting attitude like yours, I can just bet you voluntarily support charities. Someone like you would much prefer to prance around some soup kitchen and preach to the homeless. "LOOK AT ME, LOOK AT ME"!!!

You mean the implication that the poor are not stupid and helpless? You're arguing that they are?

 

[CMike]

I've told my story here a few times.

About two years ago my wife and I were broke. I got nervous buying lettuce.

I took a job doing door to door sales for commission only.

I now have my own business doing door to door sales.

My income is about 12X greater than it was two years ago and I am in the top 3% of income for the country.

What pisses me off is doing door to door sales I have run across many poor people. A few people told me their tale of woe about being out of work for 3 years, on food stamps, yadda yadda yadda.

I have offered them a job doing exactly what I was doing, and almost always they have refused. What angers me that they wouldn't even try it.

I have the greatest sympathy for those strugelling who are truely willing to work and do anything.

I have anger for those who are just lazy and live off the taxpayers.

300 million +- people in the country. Not everyone can "make it". It's a matter of mathematics. You say that you made it, we'll have to take your word for it. But not everyone can.

When you allow those who have to exploit those who don't, you get wealth disparity and the lower class doesn't stand a chance. Sure, there are stories such as yours, but they are the exception. Most average people have just been thrown overboard by the system.

If you can't handle "Compassion" as an excuse to level the playing field, how about stability? When you have laissez faire capitalism, wealth concentration eventually leads to class revolution. The #1 component of a healthy, stable economy is a vibrant, large middle class.

Just something to chew on....

I don't understand what you mean by exploiting others?

I employ a number of salespeople
now. They are all on commission. Some of my people I pay about $2,000/week, I have one guy who is on food stamps, not because he doesn't have the skill, but because he is lazy.

In any case I provide livelihoods for a number of people. I have to pay quarterly taxes to the government which are in the five digits.

How is this exploitation?

My story probably is rare. Some people won't "make it" but all have a chance to "make it".

In my case I was a door to door salesman on commission only.

The best thing to do for poor people that are not lazy is to give them opportunities. The way they get opportunities is by allowing the people that create jobs the ability to create more jobs. Making it more expensive for them to do business has the opposite affect.

What exactly do you mean by "leveling the playing field"?

I don't believe in taking people down. It doesn't help you one bit if others are brought down. The only way you will profit is if more people are brought up.

I want everyone to go up.

Once again, I have the greatest sympathy for those who truely try and struggle. And of course I have nothing for sympathy that can't work.

The problem is that there is a very large chunk that don't try and will not take "anything" to survive. They would rather live off the government.

How many people do you know that would go door to door on commission only? I bet not many. I did, and I had a MBA.

You do what you need to do and you never know what it will lead to.

 

[MaggieMae]

Trickle Up Poverty

That has always been the Democrats agenda. They figure by increasing the number of poor & getting them on government assistance will increase their voter pool. So far everything is going according to plan.

Well trickle-down certainly isn't working, is it...

 

[MaggieMae]

I've told my story here a few times.

About two years ago my wife and I were broke. I got nervous buying lettuce.

I took a job doing door to door sales for commission only.

I now have my own business doing door to door sales.

My income is about 12X greater than it was two years ago and I am in the top 3% of income for the country.

What pisses me off is doing door to door sales I have run across many poor people. A few people told me their tale of woe about being out of work for 3 years, on food stamps, yadda yadda yadda.

I have offered them a job doing exactly what I was doing, and almost always they have refused. What angers me that they wouldn't even try it.

I have the greatest sympathy for those strugelling who are truely willing to work and do anything.

I have anger for those who are just lazy and live off the taxpayers.

300 million +- people in the country. Not everyone can "make it". It's a matter of mathematics. You say that you made it, we'll have to take your word for it. But not everyone can.

When you allow those who have to exploit those who don't, you get wealth disparity and the lower class doesn't stand a chance. Sure, there are stories such as yours, but they are the exception. Most average people have just been thrown overboard by the system.

If you can't handle "Compassion" as an excuse to level the playing field, how about stability? When you have laissez faire capitalism, wealth concentration eventually leads to class revolution. The #1 component of a healthy, stable economy is a vibrant, large middle class.

Just something to chew on....

Something else to chew on

Not everyone will make it but anyone can make it
NO, "everyone" can not.

The government does not exist to protect against your personal failure
And they don't now.

Freedom comes with positives and negatives and that is still ultimately more desirable than some phony baloney system supposedly based on equalizing the outcome at the expense of freedom

I have my doubts you even now the true meaning of the word "freedom." In this country, life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness is an indoctrinated FREEDOM on its face. That some people are unable, for a number of reasons to be as fortunate as someone like you (some of which are spelled out for you here) is well, a fact of life.

 

[MaggieMae]

WTF? There have been numerous tax advantages provided for small businesses as well as other incentives. What else should the government do to prop them up? They can't FORCE businesses to hire.

Providing $1,000 temporary tax credits with one hand while threatening to raise payroll taxes and mandating health care with the other is not much of an incentive.

Small businesses are not going to fall for this cynical bait and switch.

Ironically, in talking to some of the small business owners in my city, they are more than eager to have health care coverage for their employees as an expenditure that can be fixed far preferable to the steadily increasing premiums of their existing plans, lowering of benefits, and the awful choice they are now needing to make regarding cutting the benefit completely.

And who is threatening to raise payroll taxes? Last I heard, there was a proposal on the table to cut payroll taxes for a year (maybe less, I can't remember).

 

[CMike]

Something else to chew on

Not everyone will make it but anyone can make it
The government does not exist to protect against your personal failure
Freedom comes with positives and negatives and that is still ultimately more desirable than some phony baloney system supposedly based on equalizing the outcome at the expense of freedom

There needs to be a balance. I don't know what system you speak of that sacrifices freedom for equality; A totalitarian communist system does that but nothing we have here.

Anyone can make it, yes but most will not. The disadvantaged, whether because they're born poor, born black, born disabled, born just not so bright; Doesn't matter why, a few of them will make it and the vast majority will not. We must not exploit those who do not, and we must do something for them, if for no other reason, simply to keep them out of trouble.

My grandfather, the super-conservative O'Reilly type, suggested to me once regarding such people... "Well, if they can do something productive, I think they should." I told him that's Marxist... "From each according to his abilities..." He got pissed. Anyway that's among the reasons we have these low-intelligence but decent paying public works jobs; trash collectors, street cleaners, landscapers, what have you; At least that person's doing something with himself.

If you do nothing for them, you can ultimately expect survival instincts to kick in... looting, robberies, beatings and killings of those they perceive as their exploiters. I happen to agree with CMike that burdens-of-the-state by choice piss me off. I am a business owner and I've had people try to get fired so they could get UI. Unfortunately you're gonna get some of this. Hence the balancing act continues.

You owe your grandfather an apology. You forgot the second part of the quote.

"From each according to his ability, to each according to his need (or needs)"

In other words what Karl Marx was saying was that it doesn't matter how productive you are, you should be paid according to your need.

This is a disastarous philosophy.

If you don't get paid based on your need, then does a worker have any incentive to produce? Why would a worker try to excel? He would only be paid according to his need.

Also, the first part "from each according to his ability". That is saying that the most able should produce the most, however, the pay he would get is not based on that, it's based on need. Therefore, the most able people would be exploited, while the laziest people would be rewarded.

 

[MaggieMae]

Your bs has got to be the worse I've ever seen posted. FREEDOM doesn't put food on the table or a roof over your head or keep you healthy enough to go out and look for work!

"Those who would give up Essential Liberty to purchase a little Temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety." - Benjamin Franklin

"The care of human life and happiness, and not their destruction, is the first and only legitimate object of good government."
-- Thomas Jefferson (3/31/1809)

 

[MaggieMae]

Such crap. With an arrogant, denigrating and insulting attitude like yours, I can just bet you voluntarily support charities. Someone like you would much prefer to prance around some soup kitchen and preach to the homeless. "LOOK AT ME, LOOK AT ME"!!!

Your definitions of Arrogant, Denigrating, and Insulting are very odd.

You don't believe the poor have the right or ability to take care of themselves and improve their lots in life. How magnanimous.

I invite you to find where I said anything of the kind. You can stop putting words to MY opinions right now. It won't fly.

 

[CMike]

Trickle Up Poverty

That has always been the Democrats agenda. They figure by increasing the number of poor & getting them on government assistance will increase their voter pool. So far everything is going according to plan.

Well trickle-down certainly isn't working, is it...

Trickle up doesn't work well, it makes everyone poor.

 

[MaggieMae]

And that is a myth... COMPLETE and TOTAL myth... anyone can do what they need to do because of that freedom... we do not exist, the government does not exist, to do it for you or to take care of your personal responsibilities and needs when you fail....

You and your ILK choose to portray the 'poor' as helpless... not us

Your considerations are ridiculous when you think everyone else owes it to them as adults... charity to help, GREAT, that is VOLUNTARY and I support many.... forced wealth redistribution??Nope.. that is not in line with a free society

Such crap. With an arrogant, denigrating and insulting attitude like yours, I can just bet you voluntarily support charities. Someone like you would much prefer to prance around some soup kitchen and preach to the homeless. "LOOK AT ME, LOOK AT ME"!!!

You mean the implication that the poor are not stupid and helpless? You're arguing that they are?

Comprehension has never been your strong point. Someone having to humble him or herself by having a meal in a soup kitchen isn't eager to listen to some asshole telling him to pull himself up by his bootstraps. Not that day anyway. Get it now?

 

[MaggieMae]

I've told my story here a few times.

About two years ago my wife and I were broke. I got nervous buying lettuce.

I took a job doing door to door sales for commission only.

I now have my own business doing door to door sales.

My income is about 12X greater than it was two years ago and I am in the top 3% of income for the country.

What pisses me off is doing door to door sales I have run across many poor people. A few people told me their tale of woe about being out of work for 3 years, on food stamps, yadda yadda yadda.

I have offered them a job doing exactly what I was doing, and almost always they have refused. What angers me that they wouldn't even try it.

I have the greatest sympathy for those strugelling who are truely willing to work and do anything.

I have anger for those who are just lazy and live off the taxpayers.

300 million +- people in the country. Not everyone can "make it". It's a matter of mathematics. You say that you made it, we'll have to take your word for it. But not everyone can.

When you allow those who have to exploit those who don't, you get wealth disparity and the lower class doesn't stand a chance. Sure, there are stories such as yours, but they are the exception. Most average people have just been thrown overboard by the system.

If you can't handle "Compassion" as an excuse to level the playing field, how about stability? When you have laissez faire capitalism, wealth concentration eventually leads to class revolution. The #1 component of a healthy, stable economy is a vibrant, large middle class.

Just something to chew on....

I don't understand what you mean by exploiting others?

I employ a number of salespeople
now. They are all on commission. Some of my people I pay about $2,000/week, I have one guy who is on food stamps, not because he doesn't have the skill, but because he is lazy.

In any case I provide livelihoods for a number of people. I have to pay quarterly taxes to the government which are in the five digits.

How is this exploitation?

My story probably is rare. Some people won't "make it" but all have a chance to "make it".

In my case I was a door to door salesman on commission only.

The best thing to do for poor people that are not lazy is to give them opportunities. The way they get opportunities is by allowing the people that create jobs the ability to create more jobs. Making it more expensive for them to do business has the opposite affect.

What exactly do you mean by "leveling the playing field"?

I don't believe in taking people down. It doesn't help you one bit if others are brought down. The only way you will profit is if more people are brought up.

I want everyone to go up.

Once again, I have the greatest sympathy for those who truely try and struggle. And of course I have nothing for sympathy that can't work.

The problem is that there is a very large chunk that don't try and will not take "anything" to survive. They would rather live off the government.

How many people do you know that would go door to door on commission only? I bet not many. I did, and I had a MBA.

You do what you need to do and you never know what it will lead to.

All your little personal stories are getting a little hard to accept. For all we know, you could be some zealot still sitting in that basement apartment picking your nose and eating Cheetos because you just got fired for being an asshole.

 

[LibocalypseNow]

No Socialist/Communist nation on Earth has ever seen an increase in their standard of living. The level of poverty will continue to increase as long as the Socialists are in power. Keep in mind,there are a lot of Socialists/Progressives in both parties,so both parties are the problem at this point. Socialists and Neocons agree on much more than they want you to know. They are both Big-Government Globalists/Internationalists at the end of the day. We are currently spiraling downward towards Third World Misery. Socialism/Communism is never the answer.

 

[CMike]

You say "I" lived in a basement apartment... What if you were trying to support a family in a basement apartment? What if you were trying to work two part-time jobs AND go to school to learn a new trade at the same time? There are thousands of families living like that; they are P.O.O.R and unfortunately will probably always be P.O.O.R because in today's expensive society, it's difficult to ever get far enough ahead. Too many families are just one catastrophe away from living on the streets, in shelters or in the car with an empty gas tank. More do NOT make it out of poverty than do.

And again... taking care of that family, having that family, etc is YOUR responsibility... not he government's, not society's, not the employer's.. YOURS... you have the freedom to work a second or a 3rd job (I've done it)... you have the freedom to study... you have the freedom to train... you have the freedom to hone a skill.. you have the freedom to do all of these things.. leading to the freedom to succeed or fail, all on your own

Your bs has got to be the worse I've ever seen posted. FREEDOM doesn't put food on the table or a roof over your head or keep you healthy enough to go out and look for work!

Freedom give you the opportunity to do so.

You have the right to "pursue" happiness. You don't have a right to happiness.

You have a right to become rich. You don't have a right to be rich.

 

[MaggieMae]

To be continued. I've invited someone over to watch a documentary on the history of greed. Stay tuned!

 

[CMike]

300 million +- people in the country. Not everyone can "make it". It's a matter of mathematics. You say that you made it, we'll have to take your word for it. But not everyone can.

When you allow those who have to exploit those who don't, you get wealth disparity and the lower class doesn't stand a chance. Sure, there are stories such as yours, but they are the exception. Most average people have just been thrown overboard by the system.

If you can't handle "Compassion" as an excuse to level the playing field, how about stability? When you have laissez faire capitalism, wealth concentration eventually leads to class revolution. The #1 component of a healthy, stable economy is a vibrant, large middle class.

Just something to chew on....

I don't understand what you mean by exploiting others?

I employ a number of salespeople
now. They are all on commission. Some of my people I pay about $2,000/week, I have one guy who is on food stamps, not because he doesn't have the skill, but because he is lazy.

In any case I provide livelihoods for a number of people. I have to pay quarterly taxes to the government which are in the five digits.

How is this exploitation?

My story probably is rare. Some people won't "make it" but all have a chance to "make it".

In my case I was a door to door salesman on commission only.

The best thing to do for poor people that are not lazy is to give them opportunities. The way they get opportunities is by allowing the people that create jobs the ability to create more jobs. Making it more expensive for them to do business has the opposite affect.

What exactly do you mean by "leveling the playing field"?

I don't believe in taking people down. It doesn't help you one bit if others are brought down. The only way you will profit is if more people are brought up.

I want everyone to go up.

Once again, I have the greatest sympathy for those who truely try and struggle. And of course I have nothing for sympathy that can't work.

The problem is that there is a very large chunk that don't try and will not take "anything" to survive. They would rather live off the government.

How many people do you know that would go door to door on commission only? I bet not many. I did, and I had a MBA.

You do what you need to do and you never know what it will lead to.

All your little personal stories are getting a little hard to accept. For all we know, you could be some zealot still sitting in that basement apartment picking your nose and eating Cheetos because you just got fired for being an asshole.

True. Anyone can say anything. My story is still true though.

 

[Againsheila]

I've told my story here a few times.

About two years ago my wife and I were broke. I got nervous buying lettuce.

I took a job doing door to door sales for commission only.

I now have my own business doing door to door sales.

My income is about 12X greater than it was two years ago and I am in the top 3% of income for the country.

What pisses me off is doing door to door sales I have run across many poor people. A few people told me their tale of woe about being out of work for 3 years, on food stamps, yadda yadda yadda.

I have offered them a job doing exactly what I was doing, and almost always they have refused. What angers me that they wouldn't even try it.

I have the greatest sympathy for those strugelling who are truely willing to work and do anything.

I have anger for those who are just lazy and live off the taxpayers.

Lemme guess: Amway?

Beep. Wrong guess.

In any case it's private.

You brought up the subject, that makes it public.