Reposted : I disapprove of the manner which Anwar al-Awlaki was killed.

[Foxfyre]

So many dichotomies involved here.

Clinton failed to take out bin Laden. To some that was justifiable. To some that was bad.

Bush failed to take out bin Laden. To some it was then Bush's fault that al Qaida attacked us on 9/11. To others it was bad that Bush didn't get bin Laden.

Obama authorized the Navy Seals to take out bin Laden in an act without permission of Pakistan. To some that made the Navy Seals heroes. To some that made Obama a hero. To some that was an illegal act against a sovereign nation. To some it was necessary because of who bin Laden was. To others it was murder of a person who was denied his day in court.

Now we have taken out bin Laden's No. 2 man, al-Awlaki. Some here are saying it was necessary because of who al-Awlaki was. To others it was murder of a person who was denied his day in court.

And here I am reading that we are despised by the world because of Bush.
I am reading that we will be more despised by the world because of Obama.

The fact is we have been despised by some for a very long time:

September 11, 2001 - 9/11

Oct. 12, 2000 - A terrorist bomb damages the destroyer USS Cole in the port of Aden, Yemen, killing 17 sailors and injuring 39.

Aug. 7, 1998 - Terrorist bombs destroy the U.S. embassies in Nairobi, Kenya and Dar es Salaam, Tanzania. In Nairobi, 12 Americans are among the 291 killed, and over 5,000 are wounded, including 6 Americans. In Dar es Salaam, one U.S. citizen is wounded among the 10 killed and 77 injured.

In response, on August 20 the United States attacked targets in Afghanistan and Sudan with over 75 cruise missiles fired from Navy ships in the Arabian and Red seas. About 60 Tomahawk cruise missiles were fired from warships in the Arabian Sea. Most struck six separate targets in a camp near Khost, Afghanistan. Simultaneously, about 20 cruise missiles were fired from U.S. ships in the Red Sea striking a factory in Khartoum, Sudan, which was suspected of producing components for making chemical weapons.

June 21, 1998 - Rocket-propelled grenades explode near the U.S. embassy in Beirut.

July 27, 1996 - A pipe bomb explodes during the Olympic games in Atlanta, killing one person and wounding 111.

June 25, 1996 - A bomb aboard a fuel truck explodes outside a U.S. air force installation in Dhahran, Saudi Arabia. 19 U.S. military personnel are killed in the Khubar Towers housing facility, and 515 are wounded, including 240 Americans.

Nov. 13, 1995 - A car-bomb in Riyadh, Saudi Arabia kills seven people, five of them American military and civilian advisers for National Guard training. The "Tigers of the Gulf," "Islamist Movement for Change," and "Fighting Advocates of God" claim responsibility.

April 19, 1995 - A car bomb destroys the Murrah Federal Building in Oklahoma City, killing 168 people and wounding over 600.

February 1993 - A bomb in a van explodes in the underground parking garage in New York's World Trade Center, killing six people and wounding 1,042.

Dec. 21, 1988 - A bomb destroys Pan Am 103 over Lockerbie, Scotland. All 259 people aboard the Boeing 747 are killed including 189 Americans, as are 11 people on the ground.

April 1986 - An explosion damages a TWA flight as it prepares to land in Athens, Greece. Four people are killed when they are sucked out of the aircraft.

April 5, 1986 - A bomb destroys the LaBelle discotheque in West Berlin. The disco was known to be frequented by U.S. servicemen. The attack kills one American and one German woman and wounds 150, including 44 Americans

In response, on April 15 the United States retaliated in an operation dubbed ‘El Dorado Canyon.’ Approximately 100 aircraft were launched in direct support of the raid. It was an attack against military targets involving land-based bombers from Great Britain together with carrier-based air strikes from ships in the Gulf of Sidra.

December 1985 - Simultaneous suicide attacks are carried out against U.S. and Israeli check-in desks at Rome and Vienna international airports. 20 people are killed in the two attacks, including four terrorists.

November 1985 - Hijackers aboard an Egyptair flight kill one American. Egyptian commandos later storm the aircraft on the isle of Malta, and 60 people are killed.

October 1985 - Palestinian terrorists hijack the cruise liner Achille Lauro (in response to the Israeli attack on PLO headquarters in Tunisia) Leon Klinghoffer, an elderly, wheelchair-bound American, is killed and thrown overboard.

August 1985 - A car bomb at a U.S. military base in Frankfurt, Germany kills two and injures 20. A U.S. soldier murdered for his identity papers is found a day after the explosion.

June 1985 - A TWA airliner is hijacked over the Mediterranean, the start of a two-week hostage ordeal. The last 39 passengers are eventually released in Damascus after being held in various locations in Beirut.

June 1985 - In San Salvador, El Salvador, 13 people are killed in a machine gun attack at an outdoor café, including four U.S. Marines and two American businessmen.

April 1985 - A bomb explodes in a restaurant near a U.S. air base in Madrid, Spain, killing 18, all Spaniards, and wounding 82, including 15 Americans.

November 1984 - A bomb attack on the U.S. embassy in Bogota, Colombia kills a passer-by. The attack was preceded by death threats against U.S. officials by drug traffickers.

October 1983 - A suicide car bomb attack against the U.S. Marine barracks in Beirut kills 241 servicemen. A simultaneous attack on a French base kills 58 paratroopers.

April 1983 - A suicide car bombing against the U.S. embassy in Beirut kills 63, including 17 Americans.

We can keep going back and back and back to the Iranians holding 52 American embassey personnel hostage for 444 days in the late 1970s and incidents going back to at least the 1950s.

So. . . .which president do you want to identify as the one who unleashed such contempt for the United States? And for those of you who applaud our action in some of these things while condemning our action in others, how do you make a distinction re what is appropriate?

 

[The T]

So many dichotomies involved here.

Clinton failed to take out bin Laden. To some that was justifiable. To some that was bad.

Bush failed to take out bin Laden. To some it was then Bush's fault that al Qaida attacked us on 9/11. To others it was bad that Bush didn't get bin Laden.

Obama authorized the Navy Seals to take out bin Laden in an act without permission of Pakistan. To some that made the Navy Seals heroes. To some that made Obama a hero. To some that was an illegal act against a sovereign nation. To some it was necessary because of who bin Laden was. To others it was murder of a person who was denied his day in court.

Now we have taken out bin Laden's No. 2 man, al-Awlaki. Some here are saying it was necessary because of who al-Awlaki was. To others it was murder of a person who was denied his day in court.

And here I am reading that we are despised by the world because of Bush.
I am reading that we will be more despised by the world because of Obama.

The fact is we have been despised by some for a very long time:

September 11, 2001 - 9/11

Oct. 12, 2000 - A terrorist bomb damages the destroyer USS Cole in the port of Aden, Yemen, killing 17 sailors and injuring 39.

Aug. 7, 1998 - Terrorist bombs destroy the U.S. embassies in Nairobi, Kenya and Dar es Salaam, Tanzania. In Nairobi, 12 Americans are among the 291 killed, and over 5,000 are wounded, including 6 Americans. In Dar es Salaam, one U.S. citizen is wounded among the 10 killed and 77 injured.

In response, on August 20 the United States attacked targets in Afghanistan and Sudan with over 75 cruise missiles fired from Navy ships in the Arabian and Red seas. About 60 Tomahawk cruise missiles were fired from warships in the Arabian Sea. Most struck six separate targets in a camp near Khost, Afghanistan. Simultaneously, about 20 cruise missiles were fired from U.S. ships in the Red Sea striking a factory in Khartoum, Sudan, which was suspected of producing components for making chemical weapons.

June 21, 1998 - Rocket-propelled grenades explode near the U.S. embassy in Beirut.

July 27, 1996 - A pipe bomb explodes during the Olympic games in Atlanta, killing one person and wounding 111.

June 25, 1996 - A bomb aboard a fuel truck explodes outside a U.S. air force installation in Dhahran, Saudi Arabia. 19 U.S. military personnel are killed in the Khubar Towers housing facility, and 515 are wounded, including 240 Americans.

Nov. 13, 1995 - A car-bomb in Riyadh, Saudi Arabia kills seven people, five of them American military and civilian advisers for National Guard training. The "Tigers of the Gulf," "Islamist Movement for Change," and "Fighting Advocates of God" claim responsibility.

April 19, 1995 - A car bomb destroys the Murrah Federal Building in Oklahoma City, killing 168 people and wounding over 600.

February 1993 - A bomb in a van explodes in the underground parking garage in New York's World Trade Center, killing six people and wounding 1,042.

Dec. 21, 1988 - A bomb destroys Pan Am 103 over Lockerbie, Scotland. All 259 people aboard the Boeing 747 are killed including 189 Americans, as are 11 people on the ground.

April 1986 - An explosion damages a TWA flight as it prepares to land in Athens, Greece. Four people are killed when they are sucked out of the aircraft.

April 5, 1986 - A bomb destroys the LaBelle discotheque in West Berlin. The disco was known to be frequented by U.S. servicemen. The attack kills one American and one German woman and wounds 150, including 44 Americans

In response, on April 15 the United States retaliated in an operation dubbed ‘El Dorado Canyon.’ Approximately 100 aircraft were launched in direct support of the raid. It was an attack against military targets involving land-based bombers from Great Britain together with carrier-based air strikes from ships in the Gulf of Sidra.

December 1985 - Simultaneous suicide attacks are carried out against U.S. and Israeli check-in desks at Rome and Vienna international airports. 20 people are killed in the two attacks, including four terrorists.

November 1985 - Hijackers aboard an Egyptair flight kill one American. Egyptian commandos later storm the aircraft on the isle of Malta, and 60 people are killed.

October 1985 - Palestinian terrorists hijack the cruise liner Achille Lauro (in response to the Israeli attack on PLO headquarters in Tunisia) Leon Klinghoffer, an elderly, wheelchair-bound American, is killed and thrown overboard.

August 1985 - A car bomb at a U.S. military base in Frankfurt, Germany kills two and injures 20. A U.S. soldier murdered for his identity papers is found a day after the explosion.

June 1985 - A TWA airliner is hijacked over the Mediterranean, the start of a two-week hostage ordeal. The last 39 passengers are eventually released in Damascus after being held in various locations in Beirut.

June 1985 - In San Salvador, El Salvador, 13 people are killed in a machine gun attack at an outdoor café, including four U.S. Marines and two American businessmen.

April 1985 - A bomb explodes in a restaurant near a U.S. air base in Madrid, Spain, killing 18, all Spaniards, and wounding 82, including 15 Americans.

November 1984 - A bomb attack on the U.S. embassy in Bogota, Colombia kills a passer-by. The attack was preceded by death threats against U.S. officials by drug traffickers.

October 1983 - A suicide car bomb attack against the U.S. Marine barracks in Beirut kills 241 servicemen. A simultaneous attack on a French base kills 58 paratroopers.

April 1983 - A suicide car bombing against the U.S. embassy in Beirut kills 63, including 17 Americans.

We can keep going back and back and back to the Iranians holding 52 American embassey personnel hostage for 444 days in the late 1970s and incidents going back to at least the 1950s.

So. . . .which president do you want to identify as the one who unleashed such contempt for the United States? And for those of you who applaud our action in some of these things while condemning our action in others, how do you make a distinction re what is appropriate?

Or in this case a man that was born here (which made him by proxy an American Citizen)...but returned to his roots to wage war on the United States.

What is with this mindset that foreign terrorists deserve thier day in American Courts when they reside outside the United States?

 

[bigrebnc1775]

So many dichotomies involved here.

Clinton failed to take out bin Laden. To some that was justifiable. To some that was bad.

Bush failed to take out bin Laden. To some it was then Bush's fault that al Qaida attacked us on 9/11. To others it was bad that Bush didn't get bin Laden.

Obama authorized the Navy Seals to take out bin Laden in an act without permission of Pakistan. To some that made the Navy Seals heroes. To some that made Obama a hero. To some that was an illegal act against a sovereign nation. To some it was necessary because of who bin Laden was. To others it was murder of a person who was denied his day in court.

Now we have taken out bin Laden's No. 2 man, al-Awlaki. Some here are saying it was necessary because of who al-Awlaki was. To others it was murder of a person who was denied his day in court.

And here I am reading that we are despised by the world because of Bush.
I am reading that we will be more despised by the world because of Obama.

The fact is we have been despised by some for a very long time:

September 11, 2001 - 9/11

Oct. 12, 2000 - A terrorist bomb damages the destroyer USS Cole in the port of Aden, Yemen, killing 17 sailors and injuring 39.

Aug. 7, 1998 - Terrorist bombs destroy the U.S. embassies in Nairobi, Kenya and Dar es Salaam, Tanzania. In Nairobi, 12 Americans are among the 291 killed, and over 5,000 are wounded, including 6 Americans. In Dar es Salaam, one U.S. citizen is wounded among the 10 killed and 77 injured.

In response, on August 20 the United States attacked targets in Afghanistan and Sudan with over 75 cruise missiles fired from Navy ships in the Arabian and Red seas. About 60 Tomahawk cruise missiles were fired from warships in the Arabian Sea. Most struck six separate targets in a camp near Khost, Afghanistan. Simultaneously, about 20 cruise missiles were fired from U.S. ships in the Red Sea striking a factory in Khartoum, Sudan, which was suspected of producing components for making chemical weapons.

June 21, 1998 - Rocket-propelled grenades explode near the U.S. embassy in Beirut.

July 27, 1996 - A pipe bomb explodes during the Olympic games in Atlanta, killing one person and wounding 111.

June 25, 1996 - A bomb aboard a fuel truck explodes outside a U.S. air force installation in Dhahran, Saudi Arabia. 19 U.S. military personnel are killed in the Khubar Towers housing facility, and 515 are wounded, including 240 Americans.

Nov. 13, 1995 - A car-bomb in Riyadh, Saudi Arabia kills seven people, five of them American military and civilian advisers for National Guard training. The "Tigers of the Gulf," "Islamist Movement for Change," and "Fighting Advocates of God" claim responsibility.

April 19, 1995 - A car bomb destroys the Murrah Federal Building in Oklahoma City, killing 168 people and wounding over 600.

February 1993 - A bomb in a van explodes in the underground parking garage in New York's World Trade Center, killing six people and wounding 1,042.

Dec. 21, 1988 - A bomb destroys Pan Am 103 over Lockerbie, Scotland. All 259 people aboard the Boeing 747 are killed including 189 Americans, as are 11 people on the ground.

April 1986 - An explosion damages a TWA flight as it prepares to land in Athens, Greece. Four people are killed when they are sucked out of the aircraft.

April 5, 1986 - A bomb destroys the LaBelle discotheque in West Berlin. The disco was known to be frequented by U.S. servicemen. The attack kills one American and one German woman and wounds 150, including 44 Americans

In response, on April 15 the United States retaliated in an operation dubbed ‘El Dorado Canyon.’ Approximately 100 aircraft were launched in direct support of the raid. It was an attack against military targets involving land-based bombers from Great Britain together with carrier-based air strikes from ships in the Gulf of Sidra.

December 1985 - Simultaneous suicide attacks are carried out against U.S. and Israeli check-in desks at Rome and Vienna international airports. 20 people are killed in the two attacks, including four terrorists.

November 1985 - Hijackers aboard an Egyptair flight kill one American. Egyptian commandos later storm the aircraft on the isle of Malta, and 60 people are killed.

October 1985 - Palestinian terrorists hijack the cruise liner Achille Lauro (in response to the Israeli attack on PLO headquarters in Tunisia) Leon Klinghoffer, an elderly, wheelchair-bound American, is killed and thrown overboard.

August 1985 - A car bomb at a U.S. military base in Frankfurt, Germany kills two and injures 20. A U.S. soldier murdered for his identity papers is found a day after the explosion.

June 1985 - A TWA airliner is hijacked over the Mediterranean, the start of a two-week hostage ordeal. The last 39 passengers are eventually released in Damascus after being held in various locations in Beirut.

June 1985 - In San Salvador, El Salvador, 13 people are killed in a machine gun attack at an outdoor café, including four U.S. Marines and two American businessmen.

April 1985 - A bomb explodes in a restaurant near a U.S. air base in Madrid, Spain, killing 18, all Spaniards, and wounding 82, including 15 Americans.

November 1984 - A bomb attack on the U.S. embassy in Bogota, Colombia kills a passer-by. The attack was preceded by death threats against U.S. officials by drug traffickers.

October 1983 - A suicide car bomb attack against the U.S. Marine barracks in Beirut kills 241 servicemen. A simultaneous attack on a French base kills 58 paratroopers.

April 1983 - A suicide car bombing against the U.S. embassy in Beirut kills 63, including 17 Americans.

We can keep going back and back and back to the Iranians holding 52 American embassey personnel hostage for 444 days in the late 1970s and incidents going back to at least the 1950s.

So. . . .which president do you want to identify as the one who unleashed such contempt for the United States? And for those of you who applaud our action in some of these things while condemning our action in others, how do you make a distinction re what is appropriate?

Or in this case a man that was born here (which made him by proxy an American Citizen)...but returned to his roots to wage war on the United States.

What is with this mindset that foreign terrorists deserve thier day in American Courts when they reside outside the United States?

The road to tyranny is a easy road to take if you aren't careful. No matter what an American citizen does they still are protected by the Constitution. So who will be next if a person from the government deems an American citizen a threat? You? Me? A family member? Your neighbor?

 

[bigrebnc1775]

While the Constitution has been ignored many times and has been watered down by Congressional actions, Executive actions and Court "interpretations," none of that (and not your reply, either) addresses the comment I made to saveliberty.

It appears that you and I are on the opposit side of this issue it appears that many I have agreed with on different issue are also on the same side as you.. Why must we kill due process to feel good about an illegal action?

Just for info sake? Read the Following?

What's the legal process for targeted killings like al-Awlaki's?

Here's where we disagree. I don't care what some government agancy said and what their intell was. They at one time said Iraq had WMD's Until that information was presented in a court of law and taken under oath and ruled on by a judge it's hearsay. Sorry but thats just how I feel.

Why do I get the feeling I am in the movie 12 angry men?

 

[Liability]

It has been ignored many times, and it seems as time goes by it's just a gilmer of what it use to be.

While the Constitution has been ignored many times and has been watered down by Congressional actions, Executive actions and Court "interpretations," none of that (and not your reply, either) addresses the comment I made to saveliberty.

It appears that you and I are on the opposit side of this issue it appears that many I have agreed with on different issue are also on the same side as you.. Why must we kill due process to feel good about an illegal action?

We don't.

Due process applies where it is intended to apply. And this situation is not one where "due process" applies nor is intended to apply.

And enemy in time of war can be shot to death. An enemy in time of war can get blown up by a bomb or a missile. There is no "warrant" requirement. And there is no judicial process to which he can apply to seek "relief" ahead of time. He unilaterally chooses to be a combatant. Once he makes that choice, the consequences OF that choice are entirely on him.

 

[The T]

It appears that you and I are on the opposit side of this issue it appears that many I have agreed with on different issue are also on the same side as you.. Why must we kill due process to feel good about an illegal action?

Just for info sake? Read the Following?

What's the legal process for targeted killings like al-Awlaki's?

Here's where we disagree. I don't care what some government agancy said and what their intell was. They at one time said Iraq had WMD's Until that information was presented in a court of law and taken under oath and ruled on by a judge it's hearsay. Sorry but thats just how I feel.

Why do I get the feeling I am in the movie 12 angry men?

it's OK...we move on still keeping a wary eye on a government that can't be trusted.

 

[bigrebnc1775]

While the Constitution has been ignored many times and has been watered down by Congressional actions, Executive actions and Court "interpretations," none of that (and not your reply, either) addresses the comment I made to saveliberty.

It appears that you and I are on the opposit side of this issue it appears that many I have agreed with on different issue are also on the same side as you.. Why must we kill due process to feel good about an illegal action?

We don't.

Due process applies where it is intended to apply. And this situation is not one where "due process" applies nor is intended to apply.

And enemy in time of war can be shot to death. An enemy in time of war can get blown up by a bomb or a missile. There is no "warrant" requirement. And there is no judicial process to which he can apply to seek "relief" ahead of time. He unilaterally chooses to be a combatant. Once he makes that choice, the consequences OF that choice are entirely on him.

Due process applies to American citizens period, no matter what they have done. Sorry.

 

[Liability]

It appears that you and I are on the opposit side of this issue it appears that many I have agreed with on different issue are also on the same side as you.. Why must we kill due process to feel good about an illegal action?

Just for info sake? Read the Following?

What's the legal process for targeted killings like al-Awlaki's?

Here's where we disagree. I don't care what some government agancy said and what their intell was. They at one time said Iraq had WMD's Until that information was presented in a court of law and taken under oath and ruled on by a judge it's hearsay. Sorry but thats just how I feel.

Why do I get the feeling I am in the movie 12 angry men?

Military intel is not subject to legal formulations like "hearsay." You are misusing that legal term quite fully.

We don't evaluate military intel and the need to act upon perceived threats based on what our judicial system might have to say IF it were ever called upon to have a say in the matter.

 

[Liability]

It appears that you and I are on the opposit side of this issue it appears that many I have agreed with on different issue are also on the same side as you.. Why must we kill due process to feel good about an illegal action?

We don't.

Due process applies where it is intended to apply. And this situation is not one where "due process" applies nor is intended to apply.

And enemy in time of war can be shot to death. An enemy in time of war can get blown up by a bomb or a missile. There is no "warrant" requirement. And there is no judicial process to which he can apply to seek "relief" ahead of time. He unilaterally chooses to be a combatant. Once he makes that choice, the consequences OF that choice are entirely on him.

Due process applies to American citizens period, no matter what they have done. Sorry.

No. It doesn't.

Within the realm of the authority of the legal system, you're right, of course.

But outside of those parameters, you're simply wrong.

Due process, WHEN it applies, also happens to apply to more than just citizens, by the way.

 

[The T]

So many dichotomies involved here.

Clinton failed to take out bin Laden. To some that was justifiable. To some that was bad.

Bush failed to take out bin Laden. To some it was then Bush's fault that al Qaida attacked us on 9/11. To others it was bad that Bush didn't get bin Laden.

Obama authorized the Navy Seals to take out bin Laden in an act without permission of Pakistan. To some that made the Navy Seals heroes. To some that made Obama a hero. To some that was an illegal act against a sovereign nation. To some it was necessary because of who bin Laden was. To others it was murder of a person who was denied his day in court.

Now we have taken out bin Laden's No. 2 man, al-Awlaki. Some here are saying it was necessary because of who al-Awlaki was. To others it was murder of a person who was denied his day in court.

And here I am reading that we are despised by the world because of Bush.
I am reading that we will be more despised by the world because of Obama.

The fact is we have been despised by some for a very long time:

September 11, 2001 - 9/11

Oct. 12, 2000 - A terrorist bomb damages the destroyer USS Cole in the port of Aden, Yemen, killing 17 sailors and injuring 39.

Aug. 7, 1998 - Terrorist bombs destroy the U.S. embassies in Nairobi, Kenya and Dar es Salaam, Tanzania. In Nairobi, 12 Americans are among the 291 killed, and over 5,000 are wounded, including 6 Americans. In Dar es Salaam, one U.S. citizen is wounded among the 10 killed and 77 injured.

In response, on August 20 the United States attacked targets in Afghanistan and Sudan with over 75 cruise missiles fired from Navy ships in the Arabian and Red seas. About 60 Tomahawk cruise missiles were fired from warships in the Arabian Sea. Most struck six separate targets in a camp near Khost, Afghanistan. Simultaneously, about 20 cruise missiles were fired from U.S. ships in the Red Sea striking a factory in Khartoum, Sudan, which was suspected of producing components for making chemical weapons.

June 21, 1998 - Rocket-propelled grenades explode near the U.S. embassy in Beirut.

July 27, 1996 - A pipe bomb explodes during the Olympic games in Atlanta, killing one person and wounding 111.

June 25, 1996 - A bomb aboard a fuel truck explodes outside a U.S. air force installation in Dhahran, Saudi Arabia. 19 U.S. military personnel are killed in the Khubar Towers housing facility, and 515 are wounded, including 240 Americans.

Nov. 13, 1995 - A car-bomb in Riyadh, Saudi Arabia kills seven people, five of them American military and civilian advisers for National Guard training. The "Tigers of the Gulf," "Islamist Movement for Change," and "Fighting Advocates of God" claim responsibility.

April 19, 1995 - A car bomb destroys the Murrah Federal Building in Oklahoma City, killing 168 people and wounding over 600.

February 1993 - A bomb in a van explodes in the underground parking garage in New York's World Trade Center, killing six people and wounding 1,042.

Dec. 21, 1988 - A bomb destroys Pan Am 103 over Lockerbie, Scotland. All 259 people aboard the Boeing 747 are killed including 189 Americans, as are 11 people on the ground.

April 1986 - An explosion damages a TWA flight as it prepares to land in Athens, Greece. Four people are killed when they are sucked out of the aircraft.

April 5, 1986 - A bomb destroys the LaBelle discotheque in West Berlin. The disco was known to be frequented by U.S. servicemen. The attack kills one American and one German woman and wounds 150, including 44 Americans

In response, on April 15 the United States retaliated in an operation dubbed ‘El Dorado Canyon.’ Approximately 100 aircraft were launched in direct support of the raid. It was an attack against military targets involving land-based bombers from Great Britain together with carrier-based air strikes from ships in the Gulf of Sidra.

December 1985 - Simultaneous suicide attacks are carried out against U.S. and Israeli check-in desks at Rome and Vienna international airports. 20 people are killed in the two attacks, including four terrorists.

November 1985 - Hijackers aboard an Egyptair flight kill one American. Egyptian commandos later storm the aircraft on the isle of Malta, and 60 people are killed.

October 1985 - Palestinian terrorists hijack the cruise liner Achille Lauro (in response to the Israeli attack on PLO headquarters in Tunisia) Leon Klinghoffer, an elderly, wheelchair-bound American, is killed and thrown overboard.

August 1985 - A car bomb at a U.S. military base in Frankfurt, Germany kills two and injures 20. A U.S. soldier murdered for his identity papers is found a day after the explosion.

June 1985 - A TWA airliner is hijacked over the Mediterranean, the start of a two-week hostage ordeal. The last 39 passengers are eventually released in Damascus after being held in various locations in Beirut.

June 1985 - In San Salvador, El Salvador, 13 people are killed in a machine gun attack at an outdoor café, including four U.S. Marines and two American businessmen.

April 1985 - A bomb explodes in a restaurant near a U.S. air base in Madrid, Spain, killing 18, all Spaniards, and wounding 82, including 15 Americans.

November 1984 - A bomb attack on the U.S. embassy in Bogota, Colombia kills a passer-by. The attack was preceded by death threats against U.S. officials by drug traffickers.

October 1983 - A suicide car bomb attack against the U.S. Marine barracks in Beirut kills 241 servicemen. A simultaneous attack on a French base kills 58 paratroopers.

April 1983 - A suicide car bombing against the U.S. embassy in Beirut kills 63, including 17 Americans.

We can keep going back and back and back to the Iranians holding 52 American embassey personnel hostage for 444 days in the late 1970s and incidents going back to at least the 1950s.

So. . . .which president do you want to identify as the one who unleashed such contempt for the United States? And for those of you who applaud our action in some of these things while condemning our action in others, how do you make a distinction re what is appropriate?

Or in this case a man that was born here (which made him by proxy an American Citizen)...but returned to his roots to wage war on the United States.

What is with this mindset that foreign terrorists deserve thier day in American Courts when they reside outside the United States?

The road to tyranny is a easy road to take if you aren't careful. No matter what an American citizen does they still are protected by the Constitution. So who will be next if a person from the government deems an American citizen a threat? You? Me? A family member? Your neighbor?

In this case? Your fears are warranted bu not justified. This idiot was DUAL citizenship. He chose sides, he acted. He's dead, and justifiably so.

He gave up all rights to citizenship by his actions. Does that mean Gubmint will come aftet you for exercising your rights within borders? When it happens? Let us know.

 

[The T]

Just for info sake? Read the Following?

What's the legal process for targeted killings like al-Awlaki's?

Here's where we disagree. I don't care what some government agancy said and what their intell was. They at one time said Iraq had WMD's Until that information was presented in a court of law and taken under oath and ruled on by a judge it's hearsay. Sorry but thats just how I feel.

Why do I get the feeling I am in the movie 12 angry men?

Military intel is not subject to legal formulations like "hearsay." You are misusing that legal term quite fully.

We don't evaluate military intel and the need to act upon perceived threats based on what our judicial system might have to say IF it were ever called upon to have a say in the matter.

Does the Judicial Branch have a sayso in a time of war as to what the military is allowed to do?

I thought that was left to the Legislative?

 

[Swagger]

I haven't read through this thread, so forgive me if I express what's already been mentioned.

Boo hoo hoo. Poor Anwar was gatted by those big, nasty Americans without a warrant. In my opinion, those making unenviable decisions with regards to neutralising key Al-Qaeda assets are fighting fire with fire. If you're part of the chain of command who's responsible for planning and executing terrorist operations and show no remorse for your actions (even by association), you've put your head above a parapet where the normal rules of engagement and subsequent due process can't be easily applied. So don't moan when you're shot at by those who act on behalf of those you attacked.

 

[bigrebnc1775]

Just for info sake? Read the Following?

What's the legal process for targeted killings like al-Awlaki's?

Here's where we disagree. I don't care what some government agancy said and what their intell was. They at one time said Iraq had WMD's Until that information was presented in a court of law and taken under oath and ruled on by a judge it's hearsay. Sorry but thats just how I feel.

Why do I get the feeling I am in the movie 12 angry men?

Military intel is not subject to legal formulations like "hearsay." You are misusing that legal term quite fully.

We don't evaluate military intel and the need to act upon perceived threats based on what our judicial system might have to say IF it were ever called upon to have a say in the matter.

You see libilty that all they had on him was intell fromn the CIA, and just how accurate has the CIA intell been in regards to WMD's? or even 9/11?

 

[Ropey]

I approve. I am also fine with others who disapprove. I will be fine with the judicial response to a surgical strike in a foreign country where terrorists who are at war with America and are being trained by Americans to wage this war are in the process of attacking America.

Those American terrorists, on foreign land, applying principles of war against America are open to surgical strikes.

So, in my view. I approve. I also would have approved even more had the Americans arrested him on American soil and thus never needed this entire chain of events.

 

[The T]

Here's where we disagree. I don't care what some government agancy said and what their intell was. They at one time said Iraq had WMD's Until that information was presented in a court of law and taken under oath and ruled on by a judge it's hearsay. Sorry but thats just how I feel.

Why do I get the feeling I am in the movie 12 angry men?

Military intel is not subject to legal formulations like "hearsay." You are misusing that legal term quite fully.

We don't evaluate military intel and the need to act upon perceived threats based on what our judicial system might have to say IF it were ever called upon to have a say in the matter.

You see libilty that all they had on him was intell fromn the CIA, and just how accurate has the CIA intell been in regards to WMD's? or even 9/11?

Even the captured yellowcake that was shipped to Canada?

Secret U.S. mission hauls uranium from Iraq

Thing is? Saddam had WMD's. He had used them against his own people. He had plenty of time to rid them. We found them, but not in the quantities imagined by the time we got there.

 

[bigrebnc1775]

Just for info sake? Read the Following?

What's the legal process for targeted killings like al-Awlaki's?

Here's where we disagree. I don't care what some government agancy said and what their intell was. They at one time said Iraq had WMD's Until that information was presented in a court of law and taken under oath and ruled on by a judge it's hearsay. Sorry but thats just how I feel.

Why do I get the feeling I am in the movie 12 angry men?

it's OK...we move on still keeping a wary eye on a government that can't be trusted.

I feel that I am playing the part of Henry Fonda Juror #8

 

[bigrebnc1775]

Military intel is not subject to legal formulations like "hearsay." You are misusing that legal term quite fully.

We don't evaluate military intel and the need to act upon perceived threats based on what our judicial system might have to say IF it were ever called upon to have a say in the matter.

You see libilty that all they had on him was intell fromn the CIA, and just how accurate has the CIA intell been in regards to WMD's? or even 9/11?

Even the captured yellowcake that was shipped to Canada?

Secret U.S. mission hauls uranium from Iraq

Thing is? Saddam had WMD's. He had used them against his own people. He had plenty of time to rid them. We found them, but not in the quantities imagined by the time we got there.

I think that yellow cake finding was debunked. I know a few who were in country during the iraq war and they told me no WMD's were found not even a hint of squttal bug.

 

[georgephillip]

So many dichotomies involved here.

Clinton failed to take out bin Laden. To some that was justifiable. To some that was bad.

Bush failed to take out bin Laden. To some it was then Bush's fault that al Qaida attacked us on 9/11. To others it was bad that Bush didn't get bin Laden.

Obama authorized the Navy Seals to take out bin Laden in an act without permission of Pakistan. To some that made the Navy Seals heroes. To some that made Obama a hero. To some that was an illegal act against a sovereign nation. To some it was necessary because of who bin Laden was. To others it was murder of a person who was denied his day in court.

Now we have taken out bin Laden's No. 2 man, al-Awlaki. Some here are saying it was necessary because of who al-Awlaki was. To others it was murder of a person who was denied his day in court.

And here I am reading that we are despised by the world because of Bush.
I am reading that we will be more despised by the world because of Obama.

The fact is we have been despised by some for a very long time:

September 11, 2001 - 9/11

Oct. 12, 2000 - A terrorist bomb damages the destroyer USS Cole in the port of Aden, Yemen, killing 17 sailors and injuring 39.

Aug. 7, 1998 - Terrorist bombs destroy the U.S. embassies in Nairobi, Kenya and Dar es Salaam, Tanzania. In Nairobi, 12 Americans are among the 291 killed, and over 5,000 are wounded, including 6 Americans. In Dar es Salaam, one U.S. citizen is wounded among the 10 killed and 77 injured.

In response, on August 20 the United States attacked targets in Afghanistan and Sudan with over 75 cruise missiles fired from Navy ships in the Arabian and Red seas. About 60 Tomahawk cruise missiles were fired from warships in the Arabian Sea. Most struck six separate targets in a camp near Khost, Afghanistan. Simultaneously, about 20 cruise missiles were fired from U.S. ships in the Red Sea striking a factory in Khartoum, Sudan, which was suspected of producing components for making chemical weapons.

June 21, 1998 - Rocket-propelled grenades explode near the U.S. embassy in Beirut.

July 27, 1996 - A pipe bomb explodes during the Olympic games in Atlanta, killing one person and wounding 111.

June 25, 1996 - A bomb aboard a fuel truck explodes outside a U.S. air force installation in Dhahran, Saudi Arabia. 19 U.S. military personnel are killed in the Khubar Towers housing facility, and 515 are wounded, including 240 Americans.

Nov. 13, 1995 - A car-bomb in Riyadh, Saudi Arabia kills seven people, five of them American military and civilian advisers for National Guard training. The "Tigers of the Gulf," "Islamist Movement for Change," and "Fighting Advocates of God" claim responsibility.

April 19, 1995 - A car bomb destroys the Murrah Federal Building in Oklahoma City, killing 168 people and wounding over 600.

February 1993 - A bomb in a van explodes in the underground parking garage in New York's World Trade Center, killing six people and wounding 1,042.

Dec. 21, 1988 - A bomb destroys Pan Am 103 over Lockerbie, Scotland. All 259 people aboard the Boeing 747 are killed including 189 Americans, as are 11 people on the ground.

April 1986 - An explosion damages a TWA flight as it prepares to land in Athens, Greece. Four people are killed when they are sucked out of the aircraft.

April 5, 1986 - A bomb destroys the LaBelle discotheque in West Berlin. The disco was known to be frequented by U.S. servicemen. The attack kills one American and one German woman and wounds 150, including 44 Americans

In response, on April 15 the United States retaliated in an operation dubbed ‘El Dorado Canyon.’ Approximately 100 aircraft were launched in direct support of the raid. It was an attack against military targets involving land-based bombers from Great Britain together with carrier-based air strikes from ships in the Gulf of Sidra.

December 1985 - Simultaneous suicide attacks are carried out against U.S. and Israeli check-in desks at Rome and Vienna international airports. 20 people are killed in the two attacks, including four terrorists.

November 1985 - Hijackers aboard an Egyptair flight kill one American. Egyptian commandos later storm the aircraft on the isle of Malta, and 60 people are killed.

October 1985 - Palestinian terrorists hijack the cruise liner Achille Lauro (in response to the Israeli attack on PLO headquarters in Tunisia) Leon Klinghoffer, an elderly, wheelchair-bound American, is killed and thrown overboard.

August 1985 - A car bomb at a U.S. military base in Frankfurt, Germany kills two and injures 20. A U.S. soldier murdered for his identity papers is found a day after the explosion.

June 1985 - A TWA airliner is hijacked over the Mediterranean, the start of a two-week hostage ordeal. The last 39 passengers are eventually released in Damascus after being held in various locations in Beirut.

June 1985 - In San Salvador, El Salvador, 13 people are killed in a machine gun attack at an outdoor café, including four U.S. Marines and two American businessmen.

April 1985 - A bomb explodes in a restaurant near a U.S. air base in Madrid, Spain, killing 18, all Spaniards, and wounding 82, including 15 Americans.

November 1984 - A bomb attack on the U.S. embassy in Bogota, Colombia kills a passer-by. The attack was preceded by death threats against U.S. officials by drug traffickers.

October 1983 - A suicide car bomb attack against the U.S. Marine barracks in Beirut kills 241 servicemen. A simultaneous attack on a French base kills 58 paratroopers.

April 1983 - A suicide car bombing against the U.S. embassy in Beirut kills 63, including 17 Americans.

We can keep going back and back and back to the Iranians holding 52 American embassey personnel hostage for 444 days in the late 1970s and incidents going back to at least the 1950s.

So. . . .which president do you want to identify as the one who unleashed such contempt for the United States? And for those of you who applaud our action in some of these things while condemning our action in others, how do you make a distinction re what is appropriate?

Here's one from the 50s many Muslims still talk about regularly.

"Mohammad Mosaddegh or Mosaddeq (Persian: محمد مصدق, IPA: [mohæmˈmæd(-e) mosædˈdeɣ] ( listen)*), also Mossadegh, Mossadeq, Mosadeck, or Musaddiq (16 June 1882 – 5 March 1967), was the democratically elected[1][2][3] Prime Minister of Iran from 1951 to 1953 when he was overthrown in a coup d'état orchestrated by the British MI5 and the United States Central Intelligence Agency."

President Eisenhower was one of the first to comment publicly on the need to control the oil reserves found in the Middle East. Much of the violence in that part of the world since that time is of our own making.

Mohammad Mosaddegh - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

 

[Ravi]

Here's where we disagree. I don't care what some government agancy said and what their intell was. They at one time said Iraq had WMD's Until that information was presented in a court of law and taken under oath and ruled on by a judge it's hearsay. Sorry but thats just how I feel.

Why do I get the feeling I am in the movie 12 angry men?

it's OK...we move on still keeping a wary eye on a government that can't be trusted.

I feel that I am playing the part of Henry Fonda Juror #8

You lead quite an active fantasy life.

 

[MikeK]

No this is not a war..there is no declaration of war against Yemen. The rules on dealing with enemy combatants are clear...you can't kill them just because...

The war is with Al Qaeda. The fact that he was in Yemen is neither here nor there. Since the West has been successful in restraining al-Qaeda’s activities in Afghanistan and north-west Pakistan. Bin Laden’s network, though not beaten, has become scattered. Many of al-Qaeda’s foreign fighters relocated to Somalia or to Yemen – and it was in Yemen that Awlaki based his terrorist empire. So tell me again why Yemen was out of bounds. The US and other Western governments have always stated their intent to hunt down al Qaeda wherever it may be.

First, you should understand that although we've committed some troops and military equipment to combat in a few foreign countries the U.S. has not been at war since 1945. So this nonense the power establishment has imbedded in the brains of most Americans (brainwash) that we are "at war" with Al Qaeda is as specious as is the "war on drugs," the "war on poverty," the "war on illiteracy," the "war in Vietnam" and on and on. It seems that every sonofabitch who manages to inhabit the Oval Office wants to declare at least one war.

Who is Al Qaeda? Do its soldiers wear uniforms? Do they have a navy? An air force?

We've invaded Iraq and Afghanistan in retaliation against Al Qaeda, yet of the nineteen shahids who attacked us on 9/11 fifteen were Saudi, none were Afghan or Iraqi. And there is no question that the number of Islamics who hate us since we've been bombing them and killing their children is far greater than it was before our government decided to interfere with and engage in military aggression in the Middle East and Asia. The simple fact is every time some Arab gets pissed off enough to plan a bombing or to plant a bomb or to wear a bomb vest or to shoot a few dozen American soldiers on a military base he is "Al Qaeda."

We've been given an enemy called Al Qaeda and we have a war against that enemy who, except for a few prominent individuals, we cannot identify. We don't know if there are a few hundred of them, a few thousand, or millions. The Iraqi or Afghani who bears no grudge against us today but who has his door kicked in by our troops tonight will be "Al Qaeda" tomorrow.

Last, what you've said above implies that as long as the U.S. has stated its intention to hunt down "Al Qaeda" that makes it okay to invade or to deploy missiles in whatever country we choose to. Is that what you believe?