Republicans Are, And Have Been, Attacking Social Security

[Smokin' OP]

What?
Privatize SS so Wall Street gets their cut?
That's illogical. If you privatize Social Security, that means that *WE* are getting a cut of Wall Street. That's what you are doing when you buy stocks in big companies.

A little over half the people in the US own stocks.

Now you get a cut of the profits of those companies, that make *YOU* wealthy.
How does you owning a chunk of Microsoft, or Walmart, or Apple, or Ford.... mean Wall Street is getting a cut? If you own stock in those companies *YOU* are the one getting a cut.

The brokers do not do their job for free.

401(k) fees can range between 0.5% and 2%, based on the size of an employer's 401(k) plan, how many people are participating in the plan, and which provider is offering the plan. The average annual fee charged by most funds is 1%, as per the Center for American Progress.

401(k) Fees: Everything You Need to Know - Investopedia​

And Social Security works ALL the time?

YES, it does.

If it was working, we wouldn't be talking about it right now.

Regardless, STILL working.

Did you read the Social Security Administration saying they are going broke?

Republicans have been claiming SS is going broke, since Reagan, 43 years later.........STILL paying benefits.

Wouldn't that seem to indicate it's not working?

That's what republican politicians want people to believe.

 

[Smokin' OP]

They do if they want a competitive edge on their competition. Ever see a price war at gas stations across the street from each other?

That isn't because of tax breaks.

 

[Smokin' OP]

Its not a scare tactic. Its math.

Republican "Math"?
Of course, you cannot provide one example of ONE company that lowered their prices, after receiving a tax cut.

 

[Blues Man]

Not when the president is involved.

You're too thick to understand people working at any company in the state, pay the same taxes, as the ones who get tax breaks and incentives.

And power.

It is a simple calculus.

Politicians know that giving a business incentives to set up shop in their state results in far more revenue than not giving incentives .

 

[DBA]

View attachment 761187

: SHRUG :

You are of course free to "My guess..." all you would like, but your guess isn't logical.

#1 Previously supplied links have shown average SS monthly benefits and maximum SS monthly benefits.
#2 Previously supplied links show that wealthy wage earners live 8-9 years LONGER then lower wage earners. (Better health care, diet, wellness, etc.)
#3 High wage earners pay the same percentage of SS Tax (up to the cap) as lower income wage earners.
#4 Maximum monthly benefits are capped.

Therefore logically high wage earners will draw more into SS than they pay in.

I currently make over 100K (but less than the cap) in SS eligible income, I can access my SS statements online and see exactly what I paid in and projected monthly benefit amount at various times (early retirement , FRA, and delayed payments).

My calculations show that I will reach the break-even point between amount paid in and benefits received in 6.6 years. Call it 12 years if you want to include both the employee and employer portion of SS taxes.

Males typically draw SS benefits for 15 years (on average), right there that is 8 or 3 more years (on average - depending on perspective) than the break even point. Wealthy wage earners are likely to exceed the 15 years (on average).

I don't get what is wrong with just admitting that wealthy wage earners (on average) are likely to draw more from SS than they pay in.

WW

Yes, earnings are capped, but I don’t believe there is a linear progression of the benefit amount up to the contribution max. I could be wrong.

Also, keep in mind that taxes play a key role here as well. Some will pay taxes on SS and some won’t. The higher contributers will, thus ultimately getting less back on the money they contributed.

Are we considering Medicare into this equation? If so, being healthier may outweigh living longer in term of benefits. If you live 7 years longer, but die in your sleep, you may have collected less benefits than someone that died 7 years earlier but had a slew of health issues. It stands to reason that if wealthy people live longer, they are generally healthier and draw less on Medicare.

 

[WorldWatcher]

According to my link, the maximum is not people that gross 160K a year. Their contributions to SS are 160K a year to the program.

Contribution and Benefit Base

Cost of Living Adjustment

www.ssa.gov

I'm sorry Ray this is incorrect.

For 2023 $160,200 is the wage limit not the tax limit. Once a persons wages exceed $160K, they no longer pay SS Tax on anything over that amount. That's why the maximum tax paid during the year is $9,932.40.

WW

 

[DBA]

Republican "Math"?
Of course, you cannot provide one example of ONE company that lowered their prices, after receiving a tax cut.

But we can provide a bunch that will increase prices when taxes are raised…either that or layoffs or moving to a more tax friendly country.

 

[Smokin' OP]

It is a simple calculus.

Politicians know that giving a business incentives to set up shop in their state results in far more revenue than not giving incentives .

Of course republicans "know" tax incentives produce far more revenue.

Tax Incentives: The Losing Gamble States and Cities Keep ...​

Governing
https://www.governing.com › finance › tax-incentives...

Feb 25, 2020 — Study after study shows that tax incentives don't pay off in real economic gains and often fail to produce the jobs that were promised.

Study: Corporate Tax Incentives Do More Harm Than Good to ...​

North Carolina State University
https://news.ncsu.edu › tax-incentives-hurt-states

Feb 27, 2020 — A study of tax incentives aimed at attracting businesses finds that most incentives leave states worse off.

State Tax Incentives & Their Hidden Costs - Tax Foundation​

Tax Foundation
https://taxfoundation.org › state-tax-incentives-costs


Jul 22, 2021 — Some states like South Dakota and Wyoming largely forgo tax incentives because they do not levy corporate or individual income taxes in the ..

More Evidence Tax Incentives Don't Spur Development - Forbes​

Forbes
https://www.forbes.com › adammillsap › 2020/01/07



Jan 7, 2020 — State and local governments often use firm or industry-specific tax incentives in attempts to improve their economies. But a new study that ...

 

[WorldWatcher]

The higher contributers will, thus ultimately getting less back on the money they contributed.

This is just obviously not logical. With earnings and benefit caps in place and the fact that high wage earners living longer, high wage earners are MORE likely to draw out in benefits all they paid in.

Are we considering Medicare into this equation? If so, being healthier may outweigh living longer in term of benefits. If you live 7 years longer, but die in your sleep, you may have collected less benefits than someone that died 7 years earlier but had a slew of health issues. It stands to reason that if wealthy people live longer, they are generally healthier and draw less on Medicare.

No, we haven't been talking about Medicare, we've simply been addressing the core idea that high wage earners don't get out of SS what they pay in.

Medicare is a whole different animal.

WW

 

[WorldWatcher]

So DBA, you've been a reasonable poster and I've enjoyed the conversation.

Given the SS Trust fund is due to be depleted in 2035.

What is your recommendation to address the problem? The recommendation for changes should be politically doable. Not that you support personally the idea(s), but that you think they are actually doable.

I've provided and extensive list of options (I think there were 7 or 8) and identified the one that I thought could happen. Your thoughts?

WW

 

[Blues Man]

Of course republicans "know" tax incentives produce far more revenue.

Tax Incentives: The Losing Gamble States and Cities Keep ...​

View attachment 761303
Governing
https://www.governing.com › finance › tax-incentives...

Feb 25, 2020 — Study after study shows that tax incentives don't pay off in real economic gains and often fail to produce the jobs that were promised.

Study: Corporate Tax Incentives Do More Harm Than Good to ...​

View attachment 761304
North Carolina State University
https://news.ncsu.edu › tax-incentives-hurt-states

Feb 27, 2020 — A study of tax incentives aimed at attracting businesses finds that most incentives leave states worse off.

State Tax Incentives & Their Hidden Costs - Tax Foundation​

View attachment 761307
Tax Foundation
https://taxfoundation.org › state-tax-incentives-costs


Jul 22, 2021 — Some states like South Dakota and Wyoming largely forgo tax incentives because they do not levy corporate or individual income taxes in the ..

More Evidence Tax Incentives Don't Spur Development - Forbes​

View attachment 761308
Forbes
https://www.forbes.com › adammillsap › 2020/01/07



Jan 7, 2020 — State and local governments often use firm or industry-specific tax incentives in attempts to improve their economies. But a new study that ...

Once again that is up to these states to decide isn't it?

Worry about your own state and let people in other states worry about theirs.

 

[Smokin' OP]

But we can provide a bunch that will increase prices when taxes are raised…either that or layoffs or moving to a more tax friendly country.

Raised prices, because republicans giving them tax breaks, had they paid a reasonable amount of taxes, didn't get sales and property tax exemption for a decade or two, provided for their own infrastructure improvements, they wouldn't have to raise prices, when their freebies run out.

They're like sports teams "Build us a brand new stadium, or..............we are moving".

 

[Blues Man]

Raised prices, because republicans giving them tax breaks, had they paid a reasonable amount of taxes, didn't get sales and property tax exemption for a decade or two, provided for their own infrastructure improvements, they wouldn't have to raise prices, when their freebies run out.

They're like sports teams "Build us a brand new stadium, or..............we are moving".

You don't understand sales tax laws very well.

A business that buys products for resale does not pay sales tax on those items. The only sales tax any business pays are the items that are for business use like cleaning supplies office supplies etc.

I just don't see why you think it's your business to tell people in other states what they can and can't do if you don't live there.

 

[Smokin' OP]

Once again that is up to these states to decide isn't it?

In most instances, it is a state/county issue.
Like I stated earlier, NOT when the president is involved.

Worry about your own state and let people in other states worry about theirs.

Sure, then other states follow suit.

 

[Blues Man]

In most instances, it is a state/county issue.
Like I stated earlier, NOT when the president is involved.

Sure, then other states follow suit.

And tell me just how often does a president inject himself into town and county politics?

 

[Smokin' OP]

You don't understand sales tax laws very well.

Obviously, you don't.
Many states offer sales tax exemptions to companies that manufacture or are involved in the production or processing of oil and gas. The states examined here—Texas, Kansas, Missouri, Ohio, Pennsylvania, and West Virginia—account for considerable activity in the manufacturing and energy industries and offer generous sales tax exemptions.

Benefiting from those exemptions, though, can be complicated. Exemptions change over time. Claiming the exemptions also requires evaluating all vendor purchases and being aware of which purchases qualify as exempt from sales tax. Those complications are particularly relevant for a company that operates in multiple states.

Sales tax rules and regulations may also vary greatly from one manufacturing sector to another, and from one energy industry segment to another (i.e., upstream vs. downstream). The upstream segment of an energy business involves searching for and extracting raw materials, whereas the downstream segment usually refers to processing for use and distributing the finished product.

States may have general rules for mining operations that would apply to upstream businesses, or they may have specific rules for upstream activities. States’ manufacturing rules generally apply to downstream operations as well as supply companies. Depending on the state, midstream operations (i.e., transporting the product by pipeline, train, truck, or barge) may be treated as mining or manufacturing activities, or both.

Which means a company that would normally pay the tax before, are now exempt.

Sales Tax Incentives Available for Manufacturing and Energy ...​

The Tax Adviser
https://www.thetaxadviser.com › tax-clinic-story-07



Jul 31, 2013 — Many states offer sales tax exemptions to companies that manufacture or are involved in the production or processing of oil and gas.

A business that buys products for resale does not pay sales tax on those items. The only sales tax any business pays are the items that are for business use like cleaning supplies office supplies etc.

I just don't see why you think it's your business to tell people in other states what they can and can't do if you don't live there.

Like I stated, states will follow suit.

 

[Blues Man]

Obviously, you don't.
Many states offer sales tax exemptions to companies that manufacture or are involved in the production or processing of oil and gas. The states examined here—Texas, Kansas, Missouri, Ohio, Pennsylvania, and West Virginia—account for considerable activity in the manufacturing and energy industries and offer generous sales tax exemptions.

Benefiting from those exemptions, though, can be complicated. Exemptions change over time. Claiming the exemptions also requires evaluating all vendor purchases and being aware of which purchases qualify as exempt from sales tax. Those complications are particularly relevant for a company that operates in multiple states.

Sales tax rules and regulations may also vary greatly from one manufacturing sector to another, and from one energy industry segment to another (i.e., upstream vs. downstream). The upstream segment of an energy business involves searching for and extracting raw materials, whereas the downstream segment usually refers to processing for use and distributing the finished product.

States may have general rules for mining operations that would apply to upstream businesses, or they may have specific rules for upstream activities. States’ manufacturing rules generally apply to downstream operations as well as supply companies. Depending on the state, midstream operations (i.e., transporting the product by pipeline, train, truck, or barge) may be treated as mining or manufacturing activities, or both.

Which means a company that would normally pay the tax before, are now exempt.

Sales Tax Incentives Available for Manufacturing and Energy ...​

View attachment 761320
The Tax Adviser
https://www.thetaxadviser.com › tax-clinic-story-07



Jul 31, 2013 — Many states offer sales tax exemptions to companies that manufacture or are involved in the production or processing of oil and gas.

Like I stated, states will follow suit.

The very first link said nothing about sales tax. Do you read these articles?

Even IF a company got a sales tax break it is meaningless because all sales taxes paid by a company are deductible so the effect is a wash

 

[DBA]

This is just obviously not logical. With earnings and benefit caps in place and the fact that high wage earners living longer, high wage earners are MORE likely to draw out in benefits all they paid in.

It is logical that if if anyone lives longer, they will collect more benefits. I am not arguing that. What I am saying is that the contribution to benefit ratio may decrease as income increases. It Is my understanding that it is essentially a regressive(opposite of progressive) system where you get less “points” towards your benefit the more money you earn. You don’t get the same amount of points for the first 50k vs the second 50k, for example.

 

[Smokin' OP]

And tell me just how often does a president inject himself into town and county politics?

The governor determines that.
But all tax incentives will have counties, then cities vying for the corporate location.

 

[Smokin' OP]

The very first link said nothing about sales tax. Do you read these articles?

WTF?
Can you even read and comprehend?

Even IF a company got a sales tax break it is meaningless because all sales taxes paid by a company are deductible so the effect is a wash

NO, they aren't,

Businesses still must pay a sales tax on goods used for its business – the exemption is only for goods it buys and resells.

A good example is Bethany’s soap-making business. She buys the ingredients to make her soap from local farms and producers, and doesn’t pay sales tax on those ingredients since they’ll be part of the soap she sells to consumers. The form she’s filled out and provided to those vendors documents her use of their product for resale.

But when Bethany buys molds for the soap and a new cooker to produce it, she pays sales tax on those items, since she’s using them, not reselling them in some form.

Distributors and consultants for direct sales businesses – for instance Avon, MaryKay, Tupperware, Amway and others – may not have to apply for a resale form since the direct sales business they are representing has a state merchant certificate and collect sales tax, along with payment for goods, directly from the distributor or consultant.