Response to Oregon Militia Standoff Reveals Stark Double Standards

[OKTexas]

Why not? By right of conquest (which is a maritime/international law dating back at least to the 1500s) the Federal Government owned all the land (as sovereign) of the territory now the state of Oregon.

How by becoming a State do you argue that the Federal Government loses right to that land?

The only states that have original claims to land are the original 13 colonies, and only then because the Sovereign who granted them charters to the land was unceremoniously and for no real apparent reason, overthrown.

Are you really that dense, once the feds accepted them as a State they have every right of every other State, no exceptions.

The states don't have any right to land, please point out THAT in the Constitution.

What you are talking about here are "land laws and customs", not constitutional arrangements.

There's nothing in the Constitution that says "a State shall be sovereign and own all the land in its territory".

Article 1, Section 8, Clause 17

To exercise exclusive Legislation in all Cases whatsoever, over such District (not exceeding ten Miles square) as may, by Cession of Particular States, and the Acceptance of Congress, become the Seat of the Government of the United States, and to exercise like Authority over all Places purchased by the Consent of the Legislature of the State in which the Same shall be, for the Erection of Forts, Magazines, Arsenals, dock-Yards, and other needful Buildings;

The feds can only purchase land with the consent of the State Legislature, that means the State is sovereign over the lands within their State. This clause also restricts the purposes for which the feds may purchase land from a State, like I said so many times a wildlife refuge is not a constitutional purpose and is not necessary for the government to function.

Apparently you don't realize that the Feds owned Oregon's land before it was a state.

And that Article 1, sec 8, 17 is referring to states already existing at the time of the Constitution's ratification.

I don't care if wild life refuges are "constitutional" without them the US would be a shithole like Brazil with its national treasure turned into fields of cheap shitty coffee beans.

Or in the case of Oregon, cheap shitty white trash living in trailers.

Camfield v. United States (1897). The Court said:

While we do not undertake to say that Congress has the unlimited power to legislate against nuisances within a State, which it would have within a Territory, we do not think the admission of a Territory as a State deprives it of the power of legislating for the protection of the public lands, though it may thereby involve the exercise of what is ordinarily known as the police power, so long as such power is directed solely to its own protection. A different rule would place the public domain of the United States completely at the mercy of state legislation.

Shortly thereafter, the Court upheld the reservation of vast tracts of land such as national forests, indicating that these lands were held in trust for the people of the whole country, and that it was for Congress, not the courts, to say how that trust should be administered. Light v. United States (1911).​

The leading modern decision, Kleppe v. New Mexico (1976), reflects a further evolution in judicial understanding, as it in effect embraces the full-blown police-power theory. At issue was the constitutionality of the Wild, Free-Roaming Horses and Burros Act, which prohibits capturing, killing, or harassing wild horses and burros that range on public lands. Writing for the Court, Justice Thurgood Marshall specifically rejected the contention that the Property Clause includes only "(1) the power to dispose of and make incidental rules regarding the use of federal property; and (2) the power to protect federal property." He concluded that "Congress exercises the powers both of a proprietor and of a legislature over the public domain." Thus, without regard to whether wild animals are the property of the United States, or whether the act could be justified as a form of protection of the public lands, Congress was held to have sufficient power under the Property Clause to adopt regulatory legislation protecting wild animals that enter upon federal lands.

The Property Clause

A federal court expanding the authority of the federal government and by extension their own power, I'm shocked, NOT. It's very simple, once a territory it ceases to be a territory, it becomes part of the sovereign State and the property clause in no way alters clause 17 in Article 1, which restricts the purposes for which the federal government may own land.

This is exactly what you get when you have lawyers and courts picking apart the Constitution clause by clause instead of reading the document as a whole, a government of the government, by the government and for the government, the people and the States, that created it, be damned.

 

[emilynghiem]

Capturing federal property with arms and daring law enforcement to go at them is domestic terrorism. You cowardly, terrorist nutjob.

Keep it up, your entertainment value is priceless. You hypocritical regressives should go on the road.

Thanks for the concession terrorist.

What, I'm not the one that refused to answer a simple question and ran like a little girl.

You sound like a member of Y'allQuada alright.

I'm sorry you have no problem with the federal government ignoring the Constitution, I do. You regressives only cite the Constitution for convenience, I actually believe the people we elect should follow it ALL THE TIME. not just when it's convenient.

Good point OKTexas

Sure the conservatives can be hypocrites, too, like the ones in TN who went too far trying to "ban mosques"
when this is clearly denying religious freedom and "due process of law" to PROVE who committed a crime first BEFORE depriving those particular people of their liberty. When atheists or Muslims defend religious freedom, they are too often treated "unequally" to Christians when they ask for that.

The DIFFERENCE is, when I approach Christians and Constitutionalists to point out the double standards,
they tend to accept the rebuke and admit it. I've had plenty of prolife friends put aside their beliefs long enough to understand the Constitutional principle of respecting the beliefs of others, even in opposition.

However, sadly, when I try to do the same with liberals who don't have this background, I get nowhere.

As much as liberals and secularists attack Christians and Constitutionalists as being overbearing,
when it comes to REBUKE citing the laws, I find the Christians and Constitutionalists are better at correcting themselves. The others who feel no connection or authority to invoke laws go round and round with circular arguments. They WANT to cite religious freedom, individual liberty, and equal protections, but if they are too busy ABUSING govt to violate these rights of others, their arguments fall apart. The people standing on the law as their grounds for defense will at least attempt to correct themselves or seek a better solution. Why not teach all people how to resolve conflicts to reach agreement on laws and process, so that we don't keep fighting this same battle in endless loops. When will this treacherous learning curve reach an end?

 

[paulitician]

Oh yeah, double standard for sure. If they were Illegals, African Americans, Muslims, or White Communists/Progressives, y'all would be praising them as heros. In fact, your boy Hussein would have already been down there promising them the world. But they're Non-Communist White Folk, so y'all are hoping & praying for carnage. It's shameful double standard hypocrisy.

 

[Kondor3]

...I demand to see...

Psssstttt... de White Folk, dey be laffin' at'chu...

 

[emilynghiem]

Making this statement you are the dingleberry!

What do righties say in all the black lives threads ? "Just shut up and do what the cops say ."

Sorry Timmy, different rules for different people. Its the American way

wrong again, dingleberry. equal justice for all, no special treatment, no AA, no set asides, everyone equal, equal application of the law. Hillary held to the same standards as any American who has ever held a security clearance.

why? because you idiots want the Clintons not held to the same laws as every other American?

I do not understand the liberal obsession with these two corrupt, lying people.

Dear Redfish If they don't believe anyone in govt can be held accountable because the corporations run things anyway, the strategy I've seen used among the ESTABLISHMENT liberal politics is to
(1) figure out who has the most influence to either get elected or pull the most strings
(2) get behind that person and hopefully get that person elected, so you can ask favors of them
and use THAT media or social influence to push for your agenda

I've seen this especially in the minority communities in Houston (Asian vote, gay vote)
As long as their groups can get behind the "winning Mayor" then they can ask for favors in return
and say "See we got you the X Y Z vote so you could win." Now you owe us.

I saw one Mayor appoint a municipal court judge ahead of other candidates who had more experience and were waiting their turn to move up but got passed over, which was contested as a "favor" to a certain voting block that successfully campaigned and raised funds and support.

The whole nation heard of the lawsuits and votes that successfully stopped an unconstitutional ordinance Mayor Parker pushed in her last term, contested for a transgender bathroom clause that went too far, because she "owed" that to the California gay lobby that donated millions for her election and re-election.

As long as they think they are getting something, that's better than nothing.

And if they don't get what they want, the liberals blame the opposition then lobby for more and more dollars each time, playing on the system that more money means you buy influence and media campaigns to push for what you want.

If you think the system is corrupt and isn't fixable, you resort to playing the same corporate games.
And blame the rich Republicans for that and "making you have to do this."
Total victimhood mentality, instead of focusing on getting rid of the corporate interference corrupting both parties, as Greens and Libertarians have started pushing the other Third Party members to organize against. (Ralph Nader and Ron Paul called for collaboration and unified efforts among progressive/Greens and independent/Libertarians. Even Obama's cousin Milton Wolf saw enough commonality behind Occupy and Tea Party to call for unified ousting of the corporate "cronyism" that BOTH were lobbying against. It's only a matter of time, because the system of relying on this "crony capitalism" to BUY legal, political and media influence is UNSUSTAINABLE. it keeps buying more problems, more debts, and isn't getting us out. So at some point buying your way is going to collapse for the weight and debts not getting resolved.)

 

[bodecea]

Oh yeah, double standard for sure. If they were Illegals, African Americans, Muslims, or White Communists/Progressives, y'all would be praising them as heros. In fact, your boy Hussein would have already been down there promising them the world. But they're Non-Communist White Folk, so y'all are hoping & praying for carnage. It's shameful double standard hypocrisy.

"boy"?

 

[emilynghiem]

What do righties say in all the black lives threads ? "Just shut up and do what the cops say ."

Dear Timmy
Unfortunately the most peaceful effective groups to address and prevent abusive relations between cops and community met DIRECTLY with police to work out issues and agreements that way, in private. You won't see that in the media, because it doesn't sell headlines or generate hype, web hits, or social media publicity for the sources. And it certainly doesn't sell political parties, candidates, or votes to support the idea of people fixing problems directly themselves. People would be telling their govts and parties what to do, instead of politicians making millions off campaigns promising and telling others what they "plan" to do.

In LA, community groups planning Ferguson protests met with police in advance to work out plans on how to report the violent type of interference instead of arresting and obstructing the peaceful protestors.

Even Obama claims credit for peaceful negotiations with police in Chicago, after a contentious case over wrongdoing during police custody, to introduce the policy of using police video cameras in the future to tape confessions or interrogations on record.

in Ferguson (and even in cases long before Michael Brown such as Pedro Oregon's case and Sheryl Seymour in Houston), community activists met with police to work out grievances and reforms civilly.

There ARE ways that the Black activists can push for responsible change.
But you may not see that in the mainstream media.

Similarly the movements in Houston for "No More Bloodshed" (citing both the Black on Black violence as a problem that needs to stop first *AND* the resulting institutionalized racism that can better be addressed after Black people unite to save themselves and their own neighborhoods first) and the national movement by Black Pastors "Stand America" STAND "Staying True to America's National Destiny"

Aren't supported by the mainstream media.

What you will continue to see in the politicized commercialized media is hype
that pits LEFT AGAINST RIGHT in order to sell campaign ads based on FEAR.

For solutions Timmy you will need to look further and deeper than that.
I hope when you find these solutions that really work, you will stick to that and won't listen to
what the media WANTS you to go along with, just to buy and sell votes in the next election. It's all for points.

 

[easyt65]

The Federal Govt / is pissed about something like 138 acres of public land being burned and is rabidly going after US Citizens who are responsible. The trees and brush will grow back.


At the same time (almost), no one seems to give a shite that the highly incompetent EPA recently dumped over 3million gallons of mining waste into a river, and over 100 MILES down stream the water looked like aluminum paint...the material leaked will settle down into the sediment of the river, streams, and creeks. It will remain there, polluting the ecosystem, of decades to come. No one will be punished...and in fact, the EPA was just given MORE money and power after this monumental F* UP!





THERE is a 'double standard' for ya!

 

[emilynghiem]

The Federal Govt / is pissed about something like 138 acres of public land being burned and is rabidly going after US Citizens who are responsible. The trees and brush will grow back.


At the same time (almost), no one seems to give a shite that the highly incompetent EPA recently dumped over 3million gallons of mining waste into a river, and over 100 MILES down stream the water looked like aluminum paint...the material leaked will settle down into the sediment of the river, streams, and creeks. It will remain there, polluting the ecosystem, of decades to come. No one will be punished...and in fact, the EPA was just given MORE money and power after this monumental F* UP!





THERE is a 'double standard' for ya!

Thanks easyt65
I said something similar or worse after the deadly shooting that killed 9 Black church members.

I pointed out that nobody has raised any issue with Black churches burned and torn down in Freedmen's Town where I live, because the officials in charge were all Democrats.

So maybe the shooter should have joined the Democrats first, and then he could get away with it.
The media would gloss right over this if he couldn't be aligned with the rightwing as they
managed to turn George Zimmerman into a "White Hispanic".

Note to all crazies who plan anti-govt or anti-social violence:
Make sure you run for office first as a Democrat, then you can get away with mayhem and murder against Blacks, women, the environment, any minority interest. Because the media will help you blame it on "rich whites."

 

[boilermaker55]

You better check your own very corrupt parties legal situations. Try it once.
Blinded by the light!!!

Making this statement you are the dingleberry!

What do righties say in all the black lives threads ? "Just shut up and do what the cops say ."

Sorry Timmy, different rules for different people. Its the American way

wrong again, dingleberry. equal justice for all, no special treatment, no AA, no set asides, everyone equal, equal application of the law. Hillary held to the same standards as any American who has ever held a security clearance.

why? because you idiots want the Clintons not held to the same laws as every other American?

I do not understand the liberal obsession with these two corrupt, lying people.

 

[boilermaker55]

Check the lobbyists lists. That will tell you you influences and runs the government.
Thank you citizens united.

Making this statement you are the dingleberry!

What do righties say in all the black lives threads ? "Just shut up and do what the cops say ."

Sorry Timmy, different rules for different people. Its the American way

wrong again, dingleberry. equal justice for all, no special treatment, no AA, no set asides, everyone equal, equal application of the law. Hillary held to the same standards as any American who has ever held a security clearance.

why? because you idiots want the Clintons not held to the same laws as every other American?

I do not understand the liberal obsession with these two corrupt, lying people.

Dear Redfish If they don't believe anyone in govt can be held accountable because the corporations run things anyway, the strategy I've seen used among the ESTABLISHMENT liberal politics is to
(1) figure out who has the most influence to either get elected or pull the most strings
(2) get behind that person and hopefully get that person elected, so you can ask favors of them
and use THAT media or social influence to push for your agenda

I've seen this especially in the minority communities in Houston (Asian vote, gay vote)
As long as their groups can get behind the "winning Mayor" then they can ask for favors in return
and say "See we got you the X Y Z vote so you could win." Now you owe us.

I saw one Mayor appoint a municipal court judge ahead of other candidates who had more experience and were waiting their turn to move up but got passed over, which was contested as a "favor" to a certain voting block that successfully campaigned and raised funds and support.

The whole nation heard of the lawsuits and votes that successfully stopped an unconstitutional ordinance Mayor Parker pushed in her last term, contested for a transgender bathroom clause that went too far, because she "owed" that to the California gay lobby that donated millions for her election and re-election.

As long as they think they are getting something, that's better than nothing.

And if they don't get what they want, the liberals blame the opposition then lobby for more and more dollars each time, playing on the system that more money means you buy influence and media campaigns to push for what you want.

If you think the system is corrupt and isn't fixable, you resort to playing the same corporate games.
And blame the rich Republicans for that and "making you have to do this."
Total victimhood mentality, instead of focusing on getting rid of the corporate interference corrupting both parties, as Greens and Libertarians have started pushing the other Third Party members to organize against. (Ralph Nader and Ron Paul called for collaboration and unified efforts among progressive/Greens and independent/Libertarians. Even Obama's cousin Milton Wolf saw enough commonality behind Occupy and Tea Party to call for unified ousting of the corporate "cronyism" that BOTH were lobbying against. It's only a matter of time, because the system of relying on this "crony capitalism" to BUY legal, political and media influence is UNSUSTAINABLE. it keeps buying more problems, more debts, and isn't getting us out. So at some point buying your way is going to collapse for the weight and debts not getting resolved.)

 

[Avatar4321]

Two groups protesting. Both using violence. The media demanding we condemn one of them and listen to the other.

Yeah the double standard is coming from the left. As the right denounces violent tactics from both groups even when we might support the issue