Ron Paul: Crimea Secedes. So What?...

[TakeAStepBack]

Because it makes sense to put guns to people's heads to cast a vote. Since you know, that makes a shit ton more sense than just pointing it at them and telling them what will happen.

 

[paulitician]

And this differs from our election process, how exactly? .

The gun on the neck part. Come on, you can get some of these answers on your own.

So you and ClosedCaption are going for the literal gun to the head train car?

There is no evidence of Russian Soldiers holding guns to anyone's heads. That's just rabid Warmonger fantasy. It didn't happen.

 

[TakeAStepBack]

The gun on the neck part. Come on, you can get some of these answers on your own.

So you and ClosedCaption are going for the literal gun to the head train car?

There is no evidence of Russian Soldiers holding guns to anyone's heads. That's just rabid Warmonger fantasy. It didn't happen.

No shit it didn't happen. But I want to see these to pontificate further regarding this falsehood. Lets see it go all the way to its ultimate conclusion.

 

[paulitician]

My question exactly. If the people vote to join Russia, who are we to tell them they cannot?

IF, say in ten years, "the people" in New Mexico vote to become part of Mexico, I'm sure you'll say ... who cares.

Well if an illegal Coup happens here as in Kiev, Secession very well could happen. We shouldn't have been so quick to support the Coup there. These people are beginning to look like very unsavory characters. Let's just get our $Billion back and stay out of it.

 

[bendog]

So you and ClosedCaption are going for the literal gun to the head train car?

There is no evidence of Russian Soldiers holding guns to anyone's heads. That's just rabid Warmonger fantasy. It didn't happen.

No shit it didn't happen. But I want to see these to pontificate further regarding this falsehood. Lets see it go all the way to its ultimate conclusion.

I've no doubt a maj of people in the crimea would prefer to be Russian, since they speak Russian as a first language, but don't ignore the fact that opposition leaders "disappeared." We're not dealing with people who view political discourse as we do.

 

[paulitician]

So you and ClosedCaption are going for the literal gun to the head train car?

There is no evidence of Russian Soldiers holding guns to anyone's heads. That's just rabid Warmonger fantasy. It didn't happen.

No shit it didn't happen. But I want to see these to pontificate further regarding this falsehood. Lets see it go all the way to its ultimate conclusion.

Oh, i have no doubt they'll cling to their rabid Warmonger fantasies. It is entertaining though.

 

[Nutz]

Wow, I think some members need a crash course in 20th century history...

If you think we have no dog in the fight, look up appeasement and Hitler. If you think global events have no bearing on US politics, European politics or our way of life, re-examine the cold war. For those of you who didn't hit puberty until the year 2000, ask your elders.

The US is not canada...we can't sit back and watch as significant nations handle worldly social and economic issues. Now more than ever, we have to be diligent considering the way of life we appreciate and the fact that we live in a global economy. We can't ride the coattails of another nation (like canada) or depend on the UN, the EU or NATO to take action. We can't allow this aggression to happen because it will ultimately erupt into a much bigger European conflict....probably led by the Germans, given their history of war, death and attempted genocide.

We are the major player in the world - and considering the blood lust and power mongering of Europe coupled with the failure of the EU economy - events like Crimea can only serve as a breeding ground for a major conflict. Imagine a Europe where there is an oil shortage, where the balance of trade is skewed...

The US must be involved or Europe will degrade into a war zone, ultimately dragging the US into their hate, war and pestilence. Given history, do you really want to trust Europe to handle this issue?

Ah, the old 'He's a Hitler' argument. That argument is pretty sad and outdated. Less people are buying that Bullshite these days. Anyone who disagrees with the U.S. and Great Britain must be a 'Hitler.' I'm done with that charade. I think many others are too.

So we don't learn through history? So the term 'appeasement' is off limits because of Hitler? Because you don't like the argument? How is appeasement sad and outdated?

 

[TakeAStepBack]

DO you think we can stop the violence, force and coercion with more violence, force and coercion? If we do it in the name of democracy, does it change the violence, force and coercion to something else?

 

[paulitician]

Wow, I think some members need a crash course in 20th century history...

If you think we have no dog in the fight, look up appeasement and Hitler. If you think global events have no bearing on US politics, European politics or our way of life, re-examine the cold war. For those of you who didn't hit puberty until the year 2000, ask your elders.

The US is not canada...we can't sit back and watch as significant nations handle worldly social and economic issues. Now more than ever, we have to be diligent considering the way of life we appreciate and the fact that we live in a global economy. We can't ride the coattails of another nation (like canada) or depend on the UN, the EU or NATO to take action. We can't allow this aggression to happen because it will ultimately erupt into a much bigger European conflict....probably led by the Germans, given their history of war, death and attempted genocide.

We are the major player in the world - and considering the blood lust and power mongering of Europe coupled with the failure of the EU economy - events like Crimea can only serve as a breeding ground for a major conflict. Imagine a Europe where there is an oil shortage, where the balance of trade is skewed...

The US must be involved or Europe will degrade into a war zone, ultimately dragging the US into their hate, war and pestilence. Given history, do you really want to trust Europe to handle this issue?

Ah, the old 'He's a Hitler' argument. That argument is pretty sad and outdated. Less people are buying that Bullshite these days. Anyone who disagrees with the U.S. and Great Britain must be a 'Hitler.' I'm done with that charade. I think many others are too.

So we don't learn through history? So the term 'appeasement' is off limits because of Hitler? Because you don't like the argument? How is appeasement sad and outdated?

Not everyone who disagrees with the U.S. and Great Britain is a 'Hitler.' That's an old outdated tactic. The U.S. and Great Britain can be wrong, and often are. And they meddle in everyone's business all around the World. Much of the World is growing resentful of that. This was none our business. Get our $Billion back and stay out of it.

 

[bendog]

DO you think we can stop the violence, force and coercion with more violence, force and coercion? If we do it in the name of democracy, does it change the violence, force and coercion to something else?

chaos is the only answer.

 

[Pogo]

My question exactly. If the people vote to join Russia, who are we to tell them they cannot?

They voted at the point of a gun, stupid.

I guess the North Korean vote for Kim Jong Un with 100% in favor and 100% turnout is okey-doke with you, too?

I'm surrounded by imbeciles in here.....

Paulie, how bad is your OP when this guy ^^ knows more about it than you do?

Yeah, they "voted" yes, in a referendum where the choices were "yes", "OK" or "fine with me". And it's nice to know how little Aqua Buddha knows about international borders, annexing territory and what votes look like.

 

[Machaut]

The situations are only similar if you ignore the beginning: The Party of Regions was voted in, remained in after multiple elections, and was overthrown by a bunch of foreign-backed thugs. Crimea didn't want to be part of a country where the rule of law is overturned so willy-nilly, so they voted to give the people an option to remain as a part of Ukraine or secede. The new Ukrainian government started making threats about "hurr durr we gon cut off yo gas n yo lights n yo water," so Russia stepped in to help protect the Crimeans. Theirs is a mission of protection; recall that at one point they occupied a Ukrainian village with an essential gas plant sending energy to Crimea, and once they'd checked out the situation and seen that there were no violent thugs rioting in the streets, they withdrew from the village and merely guarded the plant, ensuring that the non-elected Ukrainian regime couldn't intimidate voters by cutting off their utilities. Crimeans had a choice--stay with Ukraine or join Russia--and the majority of the people who wanted to stay with Ukraine foolishly decided to "boycott the referendum," i.e. not vote. The minority that wants to stay with Ukraine has no right to complain when they have willfully avoided expressing their opinion in the official vote, nor does the West have any right to complain about the will of the voting majority of the people of Crimea.

And is that the only version of the truth or would there be an opposing view?

That is the story as I have seen it. I hold no blind loyalty to any group involved in this, and have merely reported the facts as I've learned them. I investigate claims made by both sides to the best of my ability--being an American who speaks neither Ukrainian nor Russian, this is admittedly a bit limited--and make judgements based on what I have seen substantiated, not wild accusations.

I am not interested in propaganda, only the truth; if you think that I have missed something, please let me know.

 

[paulitician]

My question exactly. If the people vote to join Russia, who are we to tell them they cannot?

They voted at the point of a gun, stupid.

I guess the North Korean vote for Kim Jong Un with 100% in favor and 100% turnout is okey-doke with you, too?

I'm surrounded by imbeciles in here.....

Paulie, how bad is your OP when this guy ^^ knows more about it than you do?

Yeah, they "voted" yes, in a referendum where the choices were "yes", "OK" or "fine with me". And it's nice to know how little Aqua Buddha knows about international borders, annexing territory and what votes look like.

There is no evidence supporting your claim that Russian Soldiers held guns to anyone's heads. You're just making shite up as you go. And if this concerns you so much, then suit up and head over to Ukraine to fight. And then hand your own bank account over to em. But don't force all Taxpayers to pay for another one of your Interventionist follies. Capisce?

 

[Machaut]

Yeah, they "voted" yes, in a referendum where the choices were "yes", "OK" or "fine with me".

Have you even read the ballot? The choices were to join Russia or stay with Ukraine.

 

[Katzndogz]

The biggest problem in comparing Russia to Hitler is that much of the Ukraine wants to go! The US imagines that by telling Crimea that Russia is acting like Hitler, it would make the Crimeans somehow change their minds and not want to be part of Russia. It isn't going to work.

 

[paulitician]

Yeah, they "voted" yes, in a referendum where the choices were "yes", "OK" or "fine with me".

Have you even read the ballot? The choices were to join Russia or stay with Ukraine.

Aw, you're spoiling their rabid Warmonger fantasies. They will lash out. But it's actually pretty funny. So enjoy.

 

[Katzndogz]

Yeah, they "voted" yes, in a referendum where the choices were "yes", "OK" or "fine with me".

Have you even read the ballot? The choices were to join Russia or stay with Ukraine.

I think the ballot recognized that Crimea didn't want to have anything to do with Ukraine at all so the choices were to be part of Russia or independent of both Ukraine and Russia.

It only makes sense that Crimea would not want to be part of Ukraine when the new Ukranian government has made speaking Russian illegal. There is no way that any power on earth would keep Crimea and Ukraine together.

 

[TakeAStepBack]

DO you think we can stop the violence, force and coercion with more violence, force and coercion? If we do it in the name of democracy, does it change the violence, force and coercion to something else?

chaos is the only answer.

Clearly it isn't. As we've been in state of chaos socially for centuries. Order forms from chaos, but the route to order doesn't have to be in the form of violence on violence, force on force, coercion on coercion. We choose that, and it ends up as chaos, yes. It's a cycle.

 

[bendog]

ummm, most of the Sudetenland probably preferred to be german. Part of Austria prolly did as well.

Putin's point, and it deserves honesty, is that the US allowed Kosovo to essentially opt out.

And the honest reply is that an state boundary that is legal under intl law may not be violated by another country .... unless it's in self-defense or to prevent genocide or at least some ethnic human rights violation. Putin claimes ethnic russains were abused, but that claim was facially absurd.

Nevertheless, there is some validity to the crimea being historically Russian. But, the Russians gave up their claim for the Ukranine giving up nukes.

It's not really an earthshaking (-: event so long as it isn't repeated. The crimea is Russia's only entrance to the Med, and really warm water port ... given the polar winters.

 

[bendog]

DO you think we can stop the violence, force and coercion with more violence, force and coercion? If we do it in the name of democracy, does it change the violence, force and coercion to something else?

chaos is the only answer.

Clearly it isn't. As we've been in state of chaos socially for centuries. Order forms from chaos, but the route to order doesn't have to be in the form of violence on violence, force on force, coercion on coercion. We choose that, and it ends up as chaos, yes. It's a cycle.

The first half of the 20th century was cyclical. (sarcasm)