Russia's Unreasonable Demands for Peace Deal!

[toomuchtime_]

The same tug of war that started the whole crap back in 2004 or even before that, taking into consideration that the West started planning the eastward expansion in 1991?

It doesn't matter whether Kuchma rigged the elections in 2004 or not.... What really matters is the perception of eastern Ukraine:

"From now on the other side will force the country to repeat the elections over and over... 500 times if necessary... until they get the result they want."

There is no tug of war between east and west. There is Russian imperialist aggression and resistance to it by Russia's neighbors. If the US had not been in Europe at the end of WWII, Russia would have gone through Germany to take France and as much of western Europe as it could. Stalin created NATO; it was Europe's response to Russian imperialist aggression at the end of WWII.

There was no western plot against Russia; Russia's neighbors clamored to join NATO in response to Russia's plot to capture them again.

 

[José]

Originally posted by toomuchtime
Stalin created NATO; it was Europe's response to Russian imperialist aggression at the end of WWII.

Irony of ironies...

The consequence of the bloodiest western european aggression against Russia (the imposition of pro-Soviet puppet states in Eastern Europe) being used to justify the military encirclement of Russia by the same western Europe... tsk, tsk, tsk...

50 years of communism pales into insignificance compared with more than 15 million russians killed by western Europe during its aggression (that would also enslave all the eastern europeans country that now bitch about Russia for much longer than 50 years.)

For more than 2 years Stalin begged America and Britain to open a second front in western Europe but Churchill said:

Let the two beasts kill each other.

Leave it to a super patriotic american clown to turn american and british cowardice, fear of losing soldiers into something to be proud of.

As they say: the war was fought with american money and soviet blood.

Poland wouldn't be a communist country for 50 years were it not for the most spectacular case of anglo-american explosive diarrhea.

 

[José]

Originally posted by toomuchtime
There is no tug of war between east and west. There is Russian imperialist aggression and resistance to it by Russia's neighbors.

Russia didn't put a gun to the head of millions of eastern Ukrainians to force them to vote for Yanukovich (born in Donetsk) twice (2004 and 2010).

Russia didn't force thousands of Ukrainians to protest against Maidan like these people in Donetsk:

Russia could not prevent at least a small minority of security agents in Eastern Ukraine to attempt armed resistance to the declaration of the eastern republics... but the takeover of government buildings occurred practically without any resistance from the agents who suposedly swore "loyalty" to the Ukrainian nation.

Russia could not stop any street protests in Donbas and Crimea between 2014 and 2021 but as far as I know they were practically nonexistent.

Russia could not prevent the formation of nationalist guerrillas in Donbas whose goal would be the overthrow of the pro-Russia government but they were never formed... much on the contrary the region was shelled for 8 years by the central government in Kiev.

Having said that... we are not total idiots to believe Russia watched the last 20 years of political polarization of the ukrainian society as a passive observer... It's obvious the country gave a big amount of support to its sympathizers in the eastern oblasts. There was heavy russian material and moral help to the secessionist cause.

Did America adopt a non-interventionist policy towards anglo-american immigrants in northern Mexico during the first half of the 19th century or did she wage war on Mexico, invade, occupy and strongarm the country to surrender half of its territory?

The idea you're supporting here that neighboring countries should not intervene on behalf of its ethnic brethren living abroad has a lot of merit, I'm not at all saying it's not a legitimate argument, but right or wrong... it's not what happened in Mexico and Ukraine, obviously.

And the fact that the controversial issue (to say the least) of foreign interference did occur in Mexico and Ukraine and was decisive in both cases doesn't mean anglos and russophones did not support their respective political causes and were just puppets of foreign countries... it's quite the opposite... the intervention would never succeed if the political cause didn't enjoy widespread popular support.

 

[Silver Cat]

A justified peace will happen when Ukraine will get back all internationally recognised territories and Russia pays for all damages it will have caused.

It's not just about "territories". It's more about people living there. There will be no peace, if you can't respect their rights, their language, their faith.

I admit that it may take years to happen. In the meantime, I can accept a 'justified stalemate'.

'Justified stalemate'? During which the Kievan regime will continue its opressive and abusing policy, and during which Ukrainian infrastructure will continue to be degraded by the Russian missile strikes and Ukrainian economic problems? I very doubt that the Russians can agree on such a thing. They want to 'liberate' more or less habitated lands not just unpopulated 'Wild Steppe', as I said, it's more about people, not territories for them.

I am okay with that. Let the Taiwanese people decide their own fate.

If you think, that Taiwanese people have right to decide their own fate, why do you think, that the people of Crimea, Donbass, Kherson, Kharkov, Dniepr, Odessa can't do the same thing?

 

[ESay]

It's not just about "territories". It's more about people living there. There will be no peace, if you can't respect their rights, their language, their faith

Ukraine will be a unitary state with one official language, the Russian Orthodox church and their affiliated structures should be banned in Ukraine. The case is closed.

'Justified stalemate'? During which the Kievan regime will continue its opressive and abusing policy, and during which Ukrainian infrastructure will continue to be degraded by the Russian missile strikes and Ukrainian economic problems? I very doubt that the Russians can agree on such a thing. They want to 'liberate' more or less habitated lands not just unpopulated 'Wild Steppe', as I said, it's more about people, not territories for them

What Russia can agree on or disagree with is off the question. Only strong military can guarantee Ukraine's existence, not some silly agreements with the Putin regime.

Ukraine should have one of the most capable armies in the region, with air defence branch being a significant part of it. And with an ability of retaliatory strikes against the Russian territory.

If you think, that Taiwanese people have right to decide their own fate, why do you think, that the people of Crimea, Donbass, Kherson, Kharkov, Dniepr, Odessa can't do the same thing

I hope you are not going to cite fake referendums on the occupied areas to support your point?

Back in the days when the Euromaidan started, I was not at all against an idea of holding an all-Ukraine referendum and creation of a confederacy with two virtually independent parts. Now, it is silly to talk about that.

 

[Silver Cat]

Ukraine will be a unitary state with one official language, the Russian Orthodox church and their affiliated structures should be banned in Ukraine. The case is closed.

Therefore there will be no Ukraine at all. If you can't respect the basic human rights of your citizens and their faith - there will be no peace.

What Russia can agree on or disagree with is off the question. Only strong military can guarantee Ukraine's existence, not some silly agreements with the Putin regime.

And there is no military strong enough to win a large-scale war against Russia.

Ukraine should have one of the most capable armies in the region, with air defence branch being a significant part of it. And with an ability of retaliatory strikes against the Russian territory.

You see, right now even the USA don't have really good Credible Second Strike Capability.
In many scenarios American retaliation strike could kill less than one million of the Russians. Of course, the Russians don't want to loss one million of their citizens, but twenty million Russian people in Ukraine is much more higher stake.

I hope you are not going to cite fake referendums on the occupied areas to support your point?

Why not?

Back in the days when the Euromaidan started, I was not at all against an idea of holding an all-Ukraine referendum and creation of a confederacy with two virtually independent parts. Now, it is silly to talk about that.

Yes. Right now we are talking about end of existence of the Kievan regime, and may be, about the Russian occupation of the whole Ukraine. Russian occupation of Ukraine is acceptable for the USA. Ukrainian genocide of ethnic Russians or significant militarisation of Ukraine is not acceptable for the Russia.

 

[ESay]

Therefore there will be no Ukraine at all. If you can't respect the basic human rights of your citizens and their faith - there will be no peace

It is more about forbidding Russian state agencies (the ROC definitely is) to operate in Ukraine.

And there is no military strong enough to win a large-scale war against Russia

I am not talking about winning war against Russia. I think that Ukraine can't win this war militarily. I am talking about stopping Russian military efforts in their SMO.

You see, right now even the USA don't have really good Credible Second Strike Capability.
In many scenarios American retaliation strike could kill less than one million of the Russians. Of course, the Russians don't want to loss one million of their citizens, but twenty million Russian people in Ukraine is much more higher stake

Dude, spare me from your favourite stuff about first, second and hell knows what else strike capabilities. I was talking about conventional weapons.

Why not

Because you the Russians create alternative reality and base your demands and reasoning on that. That is why I consider any negotiations with you senseless.

Yes. Right now we are talking about end of existence of the Kievan regime, and may be, about the Russian occupation of the whole Ukraine. Russian occupation of Ukraine is acceptable for the USA. Ukrainian genocide of ethnic Russians or significant militarisation of Ukraine is not acceptable for the Russia

Something tells me that Russia winning this war (or as you call it, SMO) is not acceptable for the US. I don't mean some useful idiots and marginal politicians, of course.

By winning I mean your ultimate goal in Ukraine's case - installing a puppet government and returning Ukraine in Russian sphere.

 

[Ringo]

What drug withdrawal looks like

https://idiod.video/d8nymr.mp4

 

[Silver Cat]

It is more about forbidding Russian state agencies (the ROC definitely is) to operate in Ukraine.

Do you want to say, that 70% of Ukrainian population are Russian agents? Man, if the people, their church, their cities and their history are the threats to your national security... Ok, it's look like you try to build your state on the foreign land.

I am not talking about winning war against Russia. I think that Ukraine can't win this war militarily. I am talking about stopping Russian military efforts in their SMO.

Then they'll just escalate it to a local war and then to a regional war (with active usage of the nuclear weapons).

Dude, spare me from your favourite stuff about first, second and hell knows what else strike capabilities. I was talking about conventional weapons.

You are talking about killing or expelling 20 millions of Russians. What makes you think, that the Russians won't use nuclear weapons to prevent it?

Because you the Russians create alternative reality and base your demands and reasoning on that. That is why I consider any negotiations with you senseless.

Therefore there won't be any end of SMO. You don't talk - they don't stop to fight.

Something tells me that Russia winning this war (or as you call it, SMO) is not acceptable for the US. I don't mean some useful idiots and marginal politicians, of course.

"Something" means Ukrainian propaganda? Man, the USA left South Vietnam, Afghanistan and a plenty of other regimes and drug-addicted dictators. What makes you think that Ukraine is something special?

By winning I mean your ultimate goal in Ukraine's case - installing a puppet government and returning Ukraine in Russian sphere.

If necessary, the USA can leave not only Ukraine, but Poland and even Germany, too. It's the issue of convenience, not of our survival.

 

[The Sage of Main Street]

Javelins and stingers did stop Russia. That's why they've barely advanced an inch and had to retreat. It's why they've barely used their airforce or helicopters. It's why they've lost thousands of tanks and ifvs. Next!
Howitzers are why Russia is incapable of advancing. Next!
Himars is why Russia lost Kherson and large portions of the Donbas and why Russia continues to lose control centers, ammo depots and unable to stage any kind of sustained offensive outside the little 16 sq mile city of Bahkmut. Next!
Western tanks & F16s haven't been used yet, but I think it's safe to assume they will "stop russia" Why do you think Putin has warned the west not to supply them? Next!
Patriots have stopped countless missile attacks on Kyiv and other Ukrainian cities. They've even stopped multiple kinzhal missiles, which Russia claims is unstoppable. Next!

Ukraine hasn't received the right equipment and training all at once in order to make the big push they're planning, but now with most of the things they need they finally can. Russia will be stopped.

The Nazis Called. They Want Their 1941 Foreign Policy Back.

 

[krichton]

The Nazis Called. They Want Their 1941 Foreign Policy Back.

How's your hometown of Belgorod doing these days?

 

[ESay]

Do you want to say, that 70% of Ukrainian population are Russian agents? Man, if the people, their church, their cities and their history are the threats to your national security... Ok, it's look like you try to build your state on the foreign land

Alternative reality.

Then they'll just escalate it to a local war and then to a regional war (with active usage of the nuclear weapons)

You won't. And your main 'partners' - China and India - have already made it clear.

You are talking about killing or expelling 20 millions of Russians. What makes you think, that the Russians won't use nuclear weapons to prevent it

Alternative reality.

Therefore there won't be any end of SMO. You don't talk - they don't stop to fight

The time will show. My bet that in the course of this year there will be a clear stalemate.

Something" means Ukrainian propaganda? Man, the USA left South Vietnam, Afghanistan and a plenty of other regimes and drug-addicted dictators. What makes you think that Ukraine is something special

No, unlike you I don't allow my government to feed me crap. Those countries have nothing to do with Ukraine.

If necessary, the USA can leave not only Ukraine, but Poland and even Germany, too. It's the issue of convenience, not of our survival

Yeah, and even the planet Earth.

 

[The Sage of Main Street]

How's your hometown of Belgorod doing these days?

Remember What the Bear Did to Timmy Treadwell and His Dumb-Blonde Girlfriend

Belgorod translates into "white city." White cities are doing great.

 

[Silver Cat]

Alternative reality.

Ok. How many laymen of Ukrainian Orthodoxal Church (Moscow Patriarcat) were in Ukraine back in 2013 in your reality?

You won't. And your main 'partners' - China and India - have already made it clear.

Man, the Russians do not care what the USA and EU said. What make you think, that they care about Chinese and Indian opinion at all?

The time will show. My bet that in the course of this year there will be a clear stalemate.

Stalemat with such a border? No way. The war of attricion - may be, but unlikely.

No, unlike you I don't allow my government to feed me crap. Those countries have nothing to do with Ukraine.

Really? What make you think, that you are that special?

Yeah, and even the planet Earth.

The planet Earth in your reality:

 

[ESay]

Ok. How many laymen of Ukrainian Orthodoxal Church (Moscow Patriarcat) were in Ukraine back in 2013 in your reality

Isn't relevant anymore. Back then the Moscow Patriarchate was considered as the only 'legitimate' church in Ukraine by the majority of Orthodox believers. The Kiev Patriarchate and the Autocefalos Orthodox church were considered as dissenters.

With the creation of the Orthodox Church of Ukraine many parishes have changed their 'jurisdiction'.

Man, the Russians do not care what the USA and EU said. What make you think, that they care about Chinese and Indian opinion at all

Dude, I understand that you are trying to depict Russia as a rock that doesn't depend on anyone, but reality is a little different thing.

Stalemat with such a border? No way. The war of attricion - may be, but unlikely

Yes, on the current frontline. With maybe some changes.

Really? What make you think, that you are that special

Why Ukraine is 'special' you mean? It is not about 'specialness'. More practical reasons. It is quite convenient for NATO to have a buffer zone between the block and Russia.

Except of that, unlike the mentioned countries, Ukraine doesn't require a direct involvement of the US or NATO troops on the ground. Surprisingly for almost every one, Ukraine was able to stop your dog shit army in a proxy war format.

The planet Earth in your reality

Correct. It is internationally recognised borders of Ukraine. That should be restored in full.

 

[Silver Cat]

Isn't relevant anymore. Back then the Moscow Patriarchate was considered as the only 'legitimate' church in Ukraine by the majority of Orthodox believers. The Kiev Patriarchate and the Autocefalos Orthodox church were considered as dissenters.

With the creation of the Orthodox Church of Ukraine many parishes have changed their 'jurisdiction'.

First of all, the majority of Orthodox believers (in the world) still consider the Ukrainian Orthodoxal Church (MP) as the only 'legitimate' church. Now, they just add Constantinopolis Patriarchate and it's brand new 'Orthodoxal Church of Ukraine' to the list of 'dissenters' and 'schismatics'.

Some of parishes changed their juridiction under the direct military, political and financial pressure of Kievan regime. But absolut majority of them (11529), especially in the South Eastern regions are still loyal to Moscow. Only in Lvov and Ternopil regions OCU has more parishes than UOC MP.

Do you really believe that all those laymen of the 'Moscow Church' are 'traitors' and should be discriminated, opressed, expelled and genocided? Man, it was Kievan regime who added religious dimension to this conflict, and this war (against their own citizens) they can't win (with all European support).

Dude, I understand that you are trying to depict Russia as a rock that doesn't depend on anyone, but reality is a little different thing.

I try to say you, that possible American and European influencial capabilities (both military and economical) are way more serious than those of India and China.
Back in 1962 the USA didn't care about opinion of Europeans, Africans, Latino Americans, Asians about Cuba. Soviet missiles on Cuba was a direct military threat to the USA. America prefered diplomatic solution of this crisis, but all options (including limited nuclear attack against Cuba and all-out nuclear war against the Soviet Union) were on table. The same situation is now. The only difference is that there is no sea or other natural border between Russia and Ukraine.

Yes, on the current frontline. With maybe some changes.

For how long Ukraine will be able defend the current frontline without American and European support?

Why Ukraine is 'special' you mean? It is not about 'specialness'. More practical reasons. It is quite convenient for NATO to have a buffer zone between the block and Russia.

If it were important to have a buffer zone - NATO wouldn't expand eastward.

Except of that, unlike the mentioned countries, Ukraine doesn't require a direct involvement of the US or NATO troops on the ground.

Of course it require.

Correct. It is internationally recognised borders of Ukraine. That should be restored in full.

Restore it. But without American support. America is not interested in it.

 

[ESay]

Some of parishes changed their juridiction under the direct military, political and financial pressure of Kievan regime. But absolut majority of them (11529), especially in the South Eastern regions are still loyal to Moscow. Only in Lvov and Ternopil regions OCU has more parishes than UOC MP.

Do you really believe that all those laymen of the 'Moscow Church' are 'traitors' and should be discriminated, opressed, expelled and genocided? Man, it was Kievan regime who added religious dimension to this conflict, and this war (against their own citizens) they can't win (with all European support

What source of that map is? I can cite some Ukrainian sources and the figures will be opposite. Especially hilarious was to see the Crimea having the OCU parishes. From what I heard, the last remaining church was closed down there a couple of months ago. It is about accuracy of your map.

Not discriminated, expelled or other stuff. The vast majority of parishes change their jurisdiction peacefully. The real problem here is the MP clergy who don't want to lose influence and revenues.

Russian state agencies, of which the ROC and their affiliates from the MP are, can't operate freely in Ukraine. That is as simple as that.

try to say you, that possible American and European influencial capabilities (both military and economical) are way more serious than those of India and China

The West, China and India all made clear they wouldn't tolerate using nukes in this conflict. Putin and his clique simply don't have any place to run. They are closely watched.

For how long Ukraine will be able defend the current frontline without American and European support

Without support? Don't know. Maybe a month or two?

If it were important to have a buffer zone - NATO wouldn't expand eastward

Not necessarily. The Baltics or Scandinavia can't play this role.

Of course it require

I don't mean military advisors and maybe some limited number of special forces.

Restore it. But without American support. America is not interested in it

Maybe, the time will show. Anyway, you are not anywhere close to speak on behalf of America.

 

[Silver Cat]

What source of that map is? I can cite some Ukrainian sources and the figures will be opposite. Especially hilarious was to see the Crimea having the OCU parishes. From what I heard, the last remaining church was closed down there a couple of months ago. It is about accuracy of your map.

Actually, the Russian government didn't registered OCU as a religios organisation, but it's not in the list of the 'extremist organisations' like Muslim brothers, Jehovah's Witnesses, Aum Shinrikyo, or even in the list of 'foreign agents' like Greenpeace, yet. So, they do nothing about prevention of OCU work even in Crimea. The freedom of religion, you know. They do not have neither preferences, nor obstacles.

Not discriminated, expelled or other stuff. The vast majority of parishes change their jurisdiction peacefully. The real problem here is the MP clergy who don't want to lose influence and revenues.

You see, what can do a humble prist or a layman when Poroshenko's Gaydamaks ultimately demands from him to 'change his jurisdiction'? Sometimes he can stand for the truth (in his understanding), sometimes - he can bend, but anyway, it doesn't add his love to this regime.

Russian state agencies, of which the ROC and their affiliates from the MP are, can't operate freely in Ukraine. That is as simple as that.

So, Poroshenko just added a religion dimensions to this conflict and made it much more difficult to untangle. There is a reason why the ROC is not prohibited in the USA.

Russian Faith

russian-faith.com

It's the freedom of religion. Something that you must learn about, if you really want to build a survivable state. As a popular Russian singer, Natalia Oreiro sing, only love can unite people.

The West, China and India all made clear they wouldn't tolerate using nukes in this conflict. Putin and his clique simply don't have any place to run. They are closely watched.

Nobody said that. Even the USA didn't said, that in the case of the Russian nuclear attack (even against the USA itself) retaliation strike is 100% guaranteed.
Official US position is simple - if the deterrence fails we are seeking for the best possible peace, which may mean or may not mean retaliation strike.

Without support? Don't know. Maybe a month or two?

So, about what stalemate are you talking?

Not necessarily. The Baltics or Scandinavia can't play this role.

Ukraine, Baltic, Scandinavia, Finland, Poland, the whole Eastern Europe can play that role. But Clinton decided to expand NATO and decrease this "buffer zone".

I don't mean military advisors and maybe some limited number of special forces.

Right now Zelenskiy is asking for F-16s. But they won't be a game-changer either.

Maybe, the time will show. Anyway, you are not anywhere close to speak on behalf of America.

The problem is that Biden can't speak on behalf of America either.

 

[ESay]

Actually, the Russian government didn't registered OCU as a religios organisation, but it's not in the list of the 'extremist organisations' like Muslim brothers, Jehovah's Witnesses, Aum Shinrikyo, or even in the list of 'foreign agents' like Greenpeace, yet. So, they do nothing about prevention of OCU work even in Crimea. The freedom of religion, you know. They do not have neither preferences, nor obstacles

Yeah, they are not forbidden but their churches are being closed down. How convenient.

You see, what can do a humble prist or a layman when Poroshenko's Gaydamaks ultimately demands from him to 'change his jurisdiction'? Sometimes he can stand for the truth (in his understanding), sometimes - he can bend, but anyway, it doesn't add his love to this regime

There is no Poroshenko in the power for 4 years now. Wake up.

So, Poroshenko just added a religion dimensions to this conflict and made it much more difficult to untangle. There is a reason why the ROC is not prohibited in the USA

Russian state agencies should be prohibited from operating in Ukraine.

Nobody said that. Even the USA didn't said, that in the case of the Russian nuclear attack (even against the USA itself) retaliation strike is 100% guaranteed

Yes, they did.

Ukraine, Baltic, Scandinavia, Finland, Poland, the whole Eastern Europe can play that role. But Clinton decided to expand NATO and decrease this "buffer zone"

Why half of Europe should play this role? It is quite unreasonable.

So, about what stalemate are you talking?

Stalemate is when two warring sides can't get their goal by military means and things get still. If by help you mean military deliveries, then I don't think that will stop.

Right now Zelenskiy is asking for F-16s. But they won't be a game-changer either

In this phase of the conflict, no. But Ukraine has to become on of the most militarised countries in the world. And the air defence component should be a significant part of that.

The problem is that Biden can't speak on behalf of America either

To speak on behalf of America, on should be an American, at least.

 

[banana 777]

How's your hometown of Belgorod doing these days?

Lost a couple of people and some masonry .
US and Ukey Nazis lost 50 000 in the Bakhmut Meat Grinder alone.

Ukeys are flat on their back spouting blood and gore . Russia has a very small nick on one eyebrow .