Zone1 Saints in heaven shocked to hear Catholics have been trying to talk to them this whole time

[Weatherman2020]

So tell me what you think it is.

Go read the great commission.
But you did already.

You’re what Jesus was talking about in Matthew 7:21-23

 

[Meriweather]

Go read the great commission.
But you did already.

In Biblical times...what was the difference between a disciple and an apostle?

 

[Meriweather]

You’re what Jesus was talking about in Matthew 7:21-23

Anything else you wish to add....Your Honor?

 

[Weatherman2020]

In Biblical times...what was the difference between a disciple and an apostle?

Go to a Bible based church and learn.

 

[Cougarbear]

Would you like to quote the Catechism of the Catholic Church on that gem?

1Timothy 2:5, There is one God (the Father( and there is one mediator between God and men, the man Christ, Jesus.

 

[Meriweather]

1Timothy 2:5

You accused Catholics of asking Saints to mediate for them. We don't. So I asked you to find a Catholic teaching that says what you accuse. Apparently you couldn't find one.

 

[Cougarbear]

You accused Catholics of asking Saints to mediate for them. We don't. So I asked you to find a Catholic teaching that says what you accuse. Apparently you couldn't find one.

Catholic doctrine absolutely rejects the worship of anyone but God and rejects all worship of statues, whether of Christ or the saints. What the Church does allow is praying to the saints in order to ask for their intercession with the one true God.

 

[Carl in Michigan]

NO MAN has ascended into heaven except the Son of Man who came down from heaven -- Jesus

The dead are still dead. No humans are in heaven

The reward of the saved is EARTH Zin the Kingdom of God.

Open your Bibles and stop believing pagan fables

 

[Cougarbear]

NO MAN has ascended into heaven except the Son of Man who came down from heaven -- Jesus

The dead are still dead. No humans are in heaven

The reward of the saved is EARTH Zin the Kingdom of God.

Open your Bibles and stop believing pagan fables

That’s a butchered version. That’s not what everyone else’s Bible says. Another attempt of JWs to change the Doctrine of God

 

[Meriweather]

What the Church does allow is praying to the saints in order to ask for their intercession with the one true God.

HORRORS! People of the Catholic faith also ask those living to pray for/with them to God. Are members of the LDS Church not allowed to pray for and with one another? Pretty amazing knowing that the LDS Church allows someone to speak for the dead in their proxy baptisms for the dead. Mormons are allowed to speak for the dead, but they are not allowed to pray for one another?

 

[Cougarbear]

HORRORS! People of the Catholic faith also ask those living to pray for/with them to God. Are members of the LDS Church not allowed to pray for and with one another? Pretty amazing knowing that the LDS Church allows someone to speak for the dead in their proxy baptisms for the dead. Mormons are allowed to speak for the dead, but they are not allowed to pray for one another?

We aren’t asking anyone who is dead to go to the Father and ask for mediation. That’s what Catholics do. We invite others to pray for the sick, afflicted and cause to mourn. We don’t ask others to go to the Father in behalf of us. We each do that individually.
We also don’t speak for the dead. The dead still have to individually accept their ordinance themselves. We only do the ordinance for them since their bodies are dead.

 

[Meriweather]

We aren’t asking anyone who is dead to go to the Father and ask for mediation. That’s what Catholics do. We invite others to pray for the sick, afflicted and cause to mourn. We don’t ask others to go to the Father in behalf of us. We each do that individually.

A rose by any other name....

Notice the word "ask". Someone who is hostile to Catholicism says when Catholics ask for people to join in prayer with them "mediation" is taking place. Correction: Jesus encourages two or more to pray together. Is Jesus saying he needs help mediating or is he noting the power of a prayer when two or more are joined in that prayer?

Catholics believe we--both the living and those who have passed on--are members of the Body of Christ. The members are not divided into petitioners and mediators. We are simply one body, one body in Christ, and we do not stand alone.

Then note what you do. You say when a Mormon asks people to join in prayer it is an "invitation" not a "mediation". Old political ploy. When your group does something it is labeled that action with a word that is righteous. When another group does the exact same thing, label that same action with a word that is derogatory. That has to be among the highest level of hypocrisy there is.

We also don’t speak for the dead. The dead still have to individually accept their ordinance themselves. We only do the ordinance for them since their bodies are dead.

And you use a proxy for that "ordinance" who steps in the place of a person who has passed on. You don't believe in the power of Christ. You believe that Christ needs LDS help--i.e. the very definition of a mediator--for the salvation of a soul.

No need to tell me why this isn't being a "mediator". You get my point. People who are against the practice--and I am--don't get to tell those who are practicing their faith in this way what they are "really" doing. In the same way, a member of the LDS faith does not get to tell Catholics what they are "really" doing.

Agreed?

 

[Cougarbear]

A rose by any other name....

Notice the word "ask". Someone who is hostile to Catholicism says when Catholics ask for people to join in prayer with them "mediation" is taking place. Correction: Jesus encourages two or more to pray together. Is Jesus saying he needs help mediating or is he noting the power of a prayer when two or more are joined in that prayer?

Catholics believe we--both the living and those who have passed on--are members of the Body of Christ. The members are not divided into petitioners and mediators. We are simply one body, one body in Christ, and we do not stand alone.

Then note what you do. You say when a Mormon asks people to join in prayer it is an "invitation" not a "mediation". Old political ploy. When your group does something it is labeled that action with a word that is righteous. When another group does the exact same thing, label that same action with a word that is derogatory. That has to be among the highest level of hypocrisy there is.



And you use a proxy for that "ordinance" who steps in the place of a person who has passed on. You don't believe in the power of Christ. You believe that Christ needs LDS help--i.e. the very definition of a mediator--for the salvation of a soul.

No need to tell me why this isn't being a "mediator". You get my point. People who are against the practice--and I am--don't get to tell those who are practicing their faith in this way what they are "really" doing. In the same way, a member of the LDS faith does not get to tell Catholics what they are "really" doing.

Agreed?

We are not mediating when we do proxy work. The ordinances are earthly ordinances. Doesn’t have anything to do with asking for help or forgiveness in behalf of somebody. That’s not mediation. The ordinance is necessary such as baptism. If a Jew or Muslim wasn’t baptized then there is nothing the Lord can do. They are damned. Even Jesus Christ had to be baptized. Even the earth had to be baptized. We aren’t in the middle of say a Jew and the Father pleading their case. What Catholics are doing is just that. Getting in the middle of Jesus Christ and the Father pleading the case for the Jew. I can’t believe you don’t know that and don’t understand what mediation means.

 

[Meriweather]

I can’t believe you don’t know that and don’t understand what mediation means.

Asking another to pray for/with you is not mediation. Mediation when someone intervenes, which is exactly what a proxy baptism is. It intervenes--not to mention interferes--with the decision people make in this life.

Prayer is not mediation. The etymology of prayer is not to mediate. It is to petition, not intervene. The Latin root is to beg--again not mediate or intervene.

By your definition, a group cannot pray, petition, beg God for peace on earth without it being a mediation (intervention).

 

[Cougarbear]

Asking another to pray for/with you is not mediation. Mediation when someone intervenes, which is exactly what a proxy baptism is. It intervenes--not to mention interferes--with the decision people make in this life.

Prayer is not mediation. The etymology of prayer is not to mediate. It is to petition, not intervene. The Latin root is to beg--again not mediate or intervene.

By your definition, a group cannot pray, petition, beg God for peace on earth without it being a mediation (intervention).

"Mediation involves the intervention of a third person, or mediator, into a dispute to assist the parties in negotiating jointly acceptable resolution of issues in conflict. The mediator meets with the parties at a neutral location where the parties can discuss the dispute and explore a variety of solutions."

Proxy Baptism is none of this. There is no dispute. There is no issue of conflict. The scripture is about three personages, The sinner, the Lord Jesus Christ and the Father God who is the final judge.
The Father asks, "have you been baptized by one with authority?"
The sinner replies, "No I haven't."
The Father says, "then you cannot enter in to my Kingdom of Heaven. You will be sent to another lower kingdom in Heaven, Terrestrial."
The Mediator, Jesus Christ says, "Father, if a human on earth will do his baptism by proxy by one with authority in my Temple, will you accept that baptism if the sinner also accepts it?"
The Father replies, "Yes, I will accept it if the sinner does as well and repents."
Eventually, the sinner's name is revealed to someone on earth as part of the genealogical work done on earth and the baptism is performed by proxy. (1Corinthians 15:29). Thus, no mediation is being performed between the sinner and the Father. That is all on Jesus Christ to mediate and negotiate. Not me, not you, not Saint Peter or Mother Mary needs to go to the Father about this matter. We also are out of the picture of the mediation as well. It's all up to the sinner and the Father with Jesus Christ working with the sinner because of his atonement. But, the baptism, as well as other temple work is necessary as well. We do it and it's up to the sinner to accept it or reject it.

By the way, when I'm performing one of the temple ordinances for a deceased person, If I feel the presence the person's spirit present, I will silently converse with that person answering any question that may come to me from that person. I can't explain this to you because it's something you have to experience yourself. You will also get the same response from anyone else who attends the temple. We are there for those people. Not to mediate or ask for anything on behalf of the person.

 

[Meriweather]

"Mediation involves the intervention of a third person, or mediator, into a dispute to assist the parties in negotiating jointly acceptable resolution of issues in conflict. The mediator meets with the parties at a neutral location where the parties can discuss the dispute and explore a variety of solutions."

Proxy Baptism is none of this.

More to the point: Catholic prayer is none of that.

 

[Cougarbear]

More to the point: Catholic prayer is none of that.

Not from what I’ve seen and heard at all the Catholic Masses I went to when teaching at a Catholic school.

 

[Meriweather]

Not from what I’ve seen and heard at all the Catholic Masses I went to when teaching at a Catholic school.

Your interpretation is your own. As are your misunderstandings.

 

[Cougarbear]

Your interpretation is your own. As are your misunderstandings.

Then the Catholic Church where I was interpreted wrong? The Los Angeles Diocese has it wrong?

 

[Meriweather]

Then the Catholic Church where I was interpreted wrong?

Sigh. Did you reach the point when it comes to Saints and Angels the term best suited is "Intercessor"? Did you read where there was only one mediator? Of course you didn't. Here is where I stand with you: I'm through. I have this philosophy: Don't pursue the lie. So spread your lie. I won't be pursuing it. Have fun.