Secession movement in New York pushes for Big Apple to split from Upstate

[Victory67]

New York State no longer wants to be dominated by New York City. Like central California no longer wants to be told what to do by Los Angeles. Maryland is tired of Baltimore. Colorado wants to split from Denver and Boulder. Even eastern Washington state wants nothing to do with the Western part of the state and liberal Seattle.

See how they feel when they don't receive NYC's money. Suffolk and Nassau don't want to foot the bill for Upstate New York, they would be better off aligning with NYC. The whole talk of this secession crap is silly, but it's still fun to "play".

Considering how dependent Upstate is upon Downstate's money, its very fun to play.

I don't think secessionists realize how little they put in and how much they get back.

 

[thereisnospoon]

Why not? If Suffolk and Nassau County align themselves with the Upstate Counties, they'll have more than enough votes, manpower and political will to overcome NYC.

The Soviet Union collapsed for the same purposes. All of its members overpowered the central authority. That is what's about to happen to Emperor Cuomo of the Empire State, a reenactment of the Fall of the Roman empire.

Nassau, Suffolk, NYC, Westchester, Rockland, Putnam, Dutchess are one big fiscal-social area. They would want to stay with NYC.

When it comes to local taxes people will gladly put up walls that help segregate the poor into their own taxing districts. It is horrible economics and public policy but it serves the short sighted interests of a lot of voters.

We have two extremes in that regard.
For example. In North Carolina, the state government controls just about everything.
If a county or municipality wishes to raise it's local tax rates, it must first receive approval from the legislature. And then part of the taxes collected must go to the state.
Public education is also a state matter. Local school districts do not have taxing authority. Teachers are paid out of the state budget. Salaries for educators are controlled at the state level as well.
If a road project is proposed, the state must give its approval.
To the other extreme is New Jersey. NJ is a 'home rule' state. Municipalities virtually have absolute taxing authority. Although that has been changed lately in that the state government passed a law limited annual tax levies at 2% per year. Towns are still free to raise their taxes. School boards in NJ are also taxing authorities with one caveat. All budget proposals must go to referendum votes which are binding. So if a budget vote fails, the board must find other ways to come up with the money. The schools are under local control so as long as they meet certain state standards for curriculum and student performance.
NJ is also a binding referendum state.
There are obvious trade offs.
Each system has pros and cons.
I prefer the home rule style because tax dollars are kept "home"..The reason is simple. Where I come from people busted their asses to be able to move to the suburbs to provide their families with a reasonably safe environment and good schools for their kids. I resent the implication that this is somehow selfish that I or my neighbors would 'refuse to share' our tax dollars with say, Paterson. We earned it. We should have at least some say in how and where it gets spent.
Now on the other side, where there is neglect from corruption or crime and poverty one could say, 'some of our taxes which do go to the state should be used wisely to assist these less fortunate places and give them a boost. "...That I can agree with. But local taxes should stay local.

 

[thereisnospoon]

New York State no longer wants to be dominated by New York City. Like central California no longer wants to be told what to do by Los Angeles. Maryland is tired of Baltimore. Colorado wants to split from Denver and Boulder. Even eastern Washington state wants nothing to do with the Western part of the state and liberal Seattle.

It is pretty much all motivated by people not wanting to support poor people who live in cities.

As income inequality gets worse the burden will only grow and people will turn on one another more and more.

Partially correct.

 

[C_Clayton_Jones]

Secession movement in New York pushes for Big Apple to split from Upstate

There is no ‘secession movement’ in New York or anywhere else, you moronic twit.

A handful of extremist nitwits in a given state doesn’t constitute a ‘secession movement.’

 

[thereisnospoon]

This idea is not so one part of a state can rid itself of poor people or minorities.
This thing is about representation in Washington.
For example. In NYC metro area which includes Nassau, Suffolk, Rockland and Westchester, there are 17 US House Districts 2 are GOP and 15 are Dem....There are a total of 27 districts in the entire state. NY is possibly the most unbalanced state in terms of representation due solely to the influence of a major metro area.
One of the issues seen with this is also that the urban districts such as CA -12 which is Nancy Pelosi's district. Or NY 13( Charles Rangel) These two essentially have jobs for life because it would be virtually impossible for them to A) lose a primary to any dem challenger and B) God forbid some poor unsuspecting schlub decides to run as a republican.
Ans lastly, the way in which Electoral College votes are apportioned in the 'winner take all' method it is almost impossible for a candidate not of the majority party in the urban areas to take any of the electoral votes he would win if the EC factored in actual district by district votes.
So for NY residents not in the downstate area, they have virtually no representation in the US House nor do their votes in the presidential election really count.
It is said by some that Texas could eventually become a "blue" state. Not likely but for presidential elections the democrat heavy urban areas such as Houston San Antonio and Dallas proper would trend democrat, the rest of Texas' votes would no longer count.
Not that anything as rash as secession is likely, but this issue is something to think about.

 

[thereisnospoon]

New York State no longer wants to be dominated by New York City. Like central California no longer wants to be told what to do by Los Angeles. Maryland is tired of Baltimore. Colorado wants to split from Denver and Boulder. Even eastern Washington state wants nothing to do with the Western part of the state and liberal Seattle.

It is pretty much all motivated by people not wanting to support poor people who live in cities.

As income inequality gets worse the burden will only grow and people will turn on one another more and more.

Getting back to your 'poor people' thing...You are partially correct. However there are very rich people that live in cities as well.
The bottom line is suburban, exurban and rural voters are sick and tired of seeing their tax dollars go to support other parts of their respective state. Especially where there are large portions of money going to social spending as well as infrastructure while the people in the outlying areas watch their surroundings crumble.
BTW about 25 or so years ago there was a secession movement in New Jersey. The southern half of the state wanted to secede from the northern half.
I was actually pretty amusing to watch these ninnies wail like lost sheep. On both sides of the Raritan River.
Funny thing was those of us in North Jersey were like "good, go. Who needs ya." While the people in South Jersey were screaming "We want out!"

 

[thereisnospoon]

Again, Upstate is 100% dependent upon the tax revenue from Downstate.

Loosing that revenue would be an act of fiscal suicide. You would have to triple property and income tax in order to make up the difference, maybe.

Not so sure about that.
Time and time again, NYC looks to Albany for fiscal relief.
Also, with lowered costs for social spending, which is the overwhelming majority of the State budget, the remaining portion of the State would not need to collect nearly as much nor need nearly as much revenue. I believe the State less NYC could be self sufficient.
Look, The 5 Boroughs are virtually autonomous anyway. There are few if any state services which provide services inside the city proper. No state police. No state utilities. The state does not maintain highways, the subways or buses. Yes, the state does things such as control liquor sales and enforcement but that can be handled by the City govt.
I think if anyone's taxes would go up it would be NYC's.

 

[thereisnospoon]

It is pretty much all motivated by people not wanting to support poor people who live in cities.

As income inequality gets worse the burden will only grow and people will turn on one another more and more.

And we all know that Albany, Buffalo, Binghampton, Rochester, Syracuse, Schenectady, Utica, all have no poor people.

Yeah people fled the poor in those cities too. It is the same thing on different scales.

One of the worst examples of this economic behavior is in CT where towns are small and the ability to avoid poor areas is easy. The city of Bridgeport is fairly well known for being a disaster but it is surrounded by rich towns.

"The city of Bridgeport is fairly well known for being a disaster but it is surrounded by rich towns."
So what? And whose problem is that?
Are you implying that those who live outside places like Bridgeport somehow "owe" the residents of Bridgeport something?
People work hard to escape from a bad environment. And they at least would like their tax dollars to stay home. It's their investment.
Connecticut city governments are world renowned for their wasteful spending and corruption. This is why Hartford, New Haven and Bridgeport are thick with crime and filth.
I've been to all three places many times. Read many a story on how these cities had officials thrown into prison for corruption. Bridgeport is quite possible the best example of how not to run a city for the last 50 years. One corrupt governing body after another.
So do you expect those "rich towns" ( depends on your perception of rich) to cough up their tax dollars to have them spent on Bridgeport only to watch those dollars be thrown down a rat hole?
What really kills me is how people come up with these great ideas on how to spend OTHER people's money.

 

[Victory67]

Not so sure about that.
Time and time again, NYC looks to Albany for fiscal relief.
Also, with lowered costs for social spending, which is the overwhelming majority of the State budget, the remaining portion of the State would not need to collect nearly as much nor need nearly as much revenue. I believe the State less NYC could be self sufficient.
Look, The 5 Boroughs are virtually autonomous anyway. There are few if any state services which provide services inside the city proper. No state police. No state utilities. The state does not maintain highways, the subways or buses. Yes, the state does things such as control liquor sales and enforcement but that can be handled by the City govt.
I think if anyone's taxes would go up it would be NYC's.

NYC and the surrounding counties pay much more in taxes to Albany than they get back.

This is a fact. Ignore it at your leisure.

 

[thereisnospoon]

New York State no longer wants to be dominated by New York City. Like central California no longer wants to be told what to do by Los Angeles. Maryland is tired of Baltimore. Colorado wants to split from Denver and Boulder. Even eastern Washington state wants nothing to do with the Western part of the state and liberal Seattle.

It is pretty much all motivated by people not wanting to support poor people who live in cities.

As income inequality gets worse the burden will only grow and people will turn on one another more and more.

There are as many poor people "upstate" than there are "downstate" - and a lot less rich people.

True....Not only is most of NY's wealth concentrated downstate, so is the poverty. Although it is not hard to find poor people upstate either.
During the 1980's Western NY, the Southern Tier and the small towns along Lake Champlian were especially hard hit. Some areas have never recovered.

 

[thereisnospoon]

Not so sure about that.
Time and time again, NYC looks to Albany for fiscal relief.
Also, with lowered costs for social spending, which is the overwhelming majority of the State budget, the remaining portion of the State would not need to collect nearly as much nor need nearly as much revenue. I believe the State less NYC could be self sufficient.
Look, The 5 Boroughs are virtually autonomous anyway. There are few if any state services which provide services inside the city proper. No state police. No state utilities. The state does not maintain highways, the subways or buses. Yes, the state does things such as control liquor sales and enforcement but that can be handled by the City govt.
I think if anyone's taxes would go up it would be NYC's.

NYC and the surrounding counties pay much more in taxes to Albany than they get back.

This is a fact. Ignore it at your leisure.

Don't get friggin testy ,newbie.
This is a discussion. Not a sand box spat. Get it?
The area contributes more because there are more people and they are generally wealthier.

 

[thereisnospoon]

State Legislature would never approve it. Upstate relies and lives on the tax revenue from Downstate.

The upstate would be perfectly capable of supporting itself. There is more to New York than NYC. It's the downstate that wouldn't allow it to happen.

How would you expect upstate to support itself, exactly?

Please.

 

[Victory67]

Upstate would literally die without Downstate.

They would beg Downstate to take them back.

But Downstate might refuse, as they would have a lot more revenue to use.

 

[Dont Taz Me Bro]

Bridgeport is quite possible the best example of how not to run a city for the last 50 years. One corrupt governing body after another.

Oh, I don't know, that award can easily go to Detroit or Camden.

 

[thereisnospoon]

The 5 counties of NYC account for 45% of the State's tax revenue. The downstate suburbs (Nassau, Suffolk, Westchester, Rockland, Rye) account for another 27%.

The entire rest of the state accounts for 24% of the State's tax revenue.

Yeah? And?....
And the bulk of NY's infamous welfare state money also goes right back down state.
http://publications.budget.ny.gov/budgetFP/2013-14EnactedBudget.pdf
NY's total budget excluding federal aid is about $90B...
Total spending on 'human services', social services and health care found on page 18 is over $40B..That represents nearly half of the total non federal aid portion of the state budget.
Federal aid is around $40B. The total NYS budget for FY 2013 is $133B.
Look, the point is that while it may seem incredible to New York City people that the other 49 states can survive without the city, it does happen.
And if this pie in the sky thing ever happens, New York state would get along just fine.
BTW, Cuomo would be out of a job in the next election. No way does upstate NY elect a flaming lib like that. And of course immediately upon Coumo's dispatching, the State would start issuing fracking permits and issue 4-5 permits for casino gambling across the state. These two industries would be lucrative for state coffers. They would put thousands of people to work. The gas and oil business would provide high paying jobs as well.
Of course this secession thing is not going to happen.
On that note, I am out of this one.

 

[thereisnospoon]

Upstate would literally die without Downstate.

They would beg Downstate to take them back.

But Downstate might refuse, as they would have a lot more revenue to use.

Such arrogance.

 

[Victory67]

Upstate would literally die without Downstate.

They would beg Downstate to take them back.

But Downstate might refuse, as they would have a lot more revenue to use.

Such arrogance.

No, its called REALITY.

 

[theDoctorisIn]

The 5 counties of NYC account for 45% of the State's tax revenue. The downstate suburbs (Nassau, Suffolk, Westchester, Rockland, Rye) account for another 27%.

The entire rest of the state accounts for 24% of the State's tax revenue.

Yeah? And?....
And the bulk of NY's infamous welfare state money also goes right back down state.
http://publications.budget.ny.gov/budgetFP/2013-14EnactedBudget.pdf
NY's total budget excluding federal aid is about $90B...
Total spending on 'human services', social services and health care found on page 18 is over $40B..That represents nearly half of the total non federal aid portion of the state budget.
Federal aid is around $40B. The total NYS budget for FY 2013 is $133B.
Look, the point is that while it may seem incredible to New York City people that the other 49 states can survive without the city, it does happen.
And if this pie in the sky thing ever happens, New York state would get along just fine.
BTW, Cuomo would be out of a job in the next election. No way does upstate NY elect a flaming lib like that. And of course immediately upon Coumo's dispatching, the State would start issuing fracking permits and issue 4-5 permits for casino gambling across the state. These two industries would be lucrative for state coffers. They would put thousands of people to work. The gas and oil business would provide high paying jobs as well.
Of course this secession thing is not going to happen.
On that note, I am out of this one.

As I pretty clearly showed before, downstate is a net "giver" in terms of State expenditures. They pay 72% of the state's revenue in taxes, and receive only about 55% of state spending.

Are you under the impression that all the people getting "aid" live in NYC?

Have you ever been to Buffalo, Rochester, Albany, or Syracuse?


.

 

[thereisnospoon]

Upstate would literally die without Downstate.

They would beg Downstate to take them back.

But Downstate might refuse, as they would have a lot more revenue to use.

Such arrogance.

No, its called REALITY.

YOUR reality.
You don't know any more about this than anyone else on the outside looking in.
That is where your arrogance shows.
Look, believe what you want.
One reason I left the NY Metro area is because of snooty pretentious over indulged liberals who think their shit is made out of ice cream. People such as yourself.

 

[Victory67]

There is no secession "movement" Upstate.

Most Upstaters know how dependent they are upon Downstate.