Zone1 Should A Handful Of Billionaires Own More Wealth Than The Bottom 50% Of All Americans?

[Red Front]

Your favorite worker's paradise has much better benefits, right?

I wouldn't characterize "my favorite" arrangement for the workplace as a paradise, that's your silly description, not mine. A worker-owned, democratically-run cooperative, would pay more and offer more benefits, for sure. Obviously, it's the workers that would own the company, they'll most likely pay themselves higher salaries. I don't see this as a paradise, just better than the totalitarian relationship between employers and employees we have today. It's better, but not perfect. Nothing in this world is perfect.

 

[Toddsterpatriot]

I wouldn't characterize "my favorite" arrangement for the workplace as a paradise, that's your silly description, not mine. A worker-owned, democratically-run cooperative, would pay more and offer more benefits, for sure. Obviously, it's the workers that would own the company.

No country is currently a worker's paradise?

A worker-owned, democratically-run cooperative, would pay more and offer more benefits, for sure.

Like United Airlines was?

 

[Red Front]

No country is currently a worker's paradise?

A worker-owned, democratically-run cooperative, would pay more and offer more benefits, for sure.

Like United Airlines was?

No country is a paradise, but we should improve conditions, whenever we can.
As far as your mention of United Airlines, elaborate. Go ahead.

 

[Toddsterpatriot]

No country is a paradise, but we can improve conditions, whenever we can.
As far as your mention of United Airlines, elaborate. Go ahead.

United Airlines was worker owned.

 

[Red Front]

United Airlines was worker owned.

Keep talking. Don't stop there, go ahead.

 

[Toddsterpatriot]

Keep talking. Don't stop there, go ahead.

Try Google.

 

[Red Front]

Try Google.

That's not an argument. You haven't refuted anything. You're a lazy half-ass.

 

[Red Front]

United Airlines was worker owned.

This is the information I got from United Airlines:

In December 2002, due largely to the post-9/11 dropoff in air travel, as well as to poor relations between the corporation and one of its key labor unions, the International Association of Machinists, United Airlines filed for bankruptcy. It remained under court protection for more than three years. This enabled it to cut costs ruthlessly. Finally, in early 2006, it emerged from court protection and resumed normal operations.

In late 2006, Continental Airlines and United had preliminary merger discussions.[26][27] On April 16, 2010, those discussions resumed.[28] The board of directors of Continental and UAL Corporation agreed on May 2, 2010, to combine operations, contingent upon shareholder and regulatory approval. On October 1, 2010, the UAL Corporation changed its name to United Continental Holdings, Inc.[29] The carriers planned to begin merging their operations in 2011.[30] The merged airline began operating under a single air operator's certificate from the Federal Aviation Administration on November 30, 2011.[31] On March 3, 2012, United and Continental merged their passenger service systems, frequent-flier programs, and websites, which virtually eliminated the Continental brand with the exception of its logo.[32] On June 27, 2019, the parent company's name changed from United Continental Holdings to United Airlines Holdings.[33]

In January 2021, Chief Executive Scott Kirby put forward the possibility for the company to mandate employees to receive the COVID-19 vaccine while cautioning the potential difficulties in implementing the mandate.[34] The company was the first major US airline to announce a vaccine mandate for all staff on Aug 6, at which point over 80% of flight attendants and 90% of pilots had been vaccinated, according to statements of the respective unions.[35] Days before the internal deadline of Sept 27, the company announced that more than 97% of the US based staff were vaccinated.[36]
Source: United Airlines - Wikipedia

How do you figure that United Airlines is a worker-owned, democratically run cooperative? How did you come to that weird conclusion? For the sake of argument, let's assume that United Airlines was this:

​

A company that is owned and operated, democratically, by the workers. Ok, what's your point? Did it fail somehow, is that what you're trying to say? Did I ever say that every single worker-owned, democratically run cooperative is successful and never goes out of business? I didn't say that. How did you come to that conclusion? I suspect that it's because your head is deeply implanted, in your rectum. You're suffering from brain rot.

 

[Toddsterpatriot]

That's not an argument. You haven't refuted anything. You're a lazy half-ass.

You claimed......

A worker-owned, democratically-run cooperative, would pay more and offer more benefits, for sure.

Did you have any examples to point to, or are you just theorizing?

 

[Toddsterpatriot]

This is the information I got from United Airlines:

In December 2002, due largely to the post-9/11 dropoff in air travel, as well as to poor relations between the corporation and one of its key labor unions, the International Association of Machinists, United Airlines filed for bankruptcy. It remained under court protection for more than three years. This enabled it to cut costs ruthlessly. Finally, in early 2006, it emerged from court protection and resumed normal operations.

In late 2006, Continental Airlines and United had preliminary merger discussions.[26][27] On April 16, 2010, those discussions resumed.[28] The board of directors of Continental and UAL Corporation agreed on May 2, 2010, to combine operations, contingent upon shareholder and regulatory approval. On October 1, 2010, the UAL Corporation changed its name to United Continental Holdings, Inc.[29] The carriers planned to begin merging their operations in 2011.[30] The merged airline began operating under a single air operator's certificate from the Federal Aviation Administration on November 30, 2011.[31] On March 3, 2012, United and Continental merged their passenger service systems, frequent-flier programs, and websites, which virtually eliminated the Continental brand with the exception of its logo.[32] On June 27, 2019, the parent company's name changed from United Continental Holdings to United Airlines Holdings.[33]

In January 2021, Chief Executive Scott Kirby put forward the possibility for the company to mandate employees to receive the COVID-19 vaccine while cautioning the potential difficulties in implementing the mandate.[34] The company was the first major US airline to announce a vaccine mandate for all staff on Aug 6, at which point over 80% of flight attendants and 90% of pilots had been vaccinated, according to statements of the respective unions.[35] Days before the internal deadline of Sept 27, the company announced that more than 97% of the US based staff were vaccinated.[36]
Source: United Airlines - Wikipedia

How do you figure that United Airlines is a worker-owned, democratically run cooperative? How did you come to that weird conclusion? For the sake of argument, let's assume that United Airlines was this:

​

A company that is owned and operated, democratically, by the workers. Ok, what's your point? Did it fail somehow, is that what you're trying to say? Did I ever say that every single worker-owned, democratically run cooperative is successful and never goes out of business? I didn't say that. How did you come to that conclusion? I suspect that it's because your head is deeply implanted, in your rectum. You're suffering from brain rot.

How do you figure that United Airlines is a worker-owned, democratically run cooperative?

The employees bought 55% of the company in 1993.

Did it fail somehow, is that what you're trying to say?

Did it succeed like you thought it should?

 

[Red Front]

You claimed......

A worker-owned, democratically-run cooperative, would pay more and offer more benefits, for sure.

Did you have any examples to point to, or are you just theorizing?

Now that's a good question. You're making a reasonable demand, for evidence. Good for you. I guess maybe you dislodged your head out of your..Ok here is some info:

THE NEW COOPERATIVE WAGES​

The report also sheds light on equitable pay ratios within worker-owned firms. The vast majority of worker cooperatives have maintained a 2-to-1 pay ratio between highest- and lowest-paid workers, compared to a CEO-to-worker pay ratio of 303-to-1 at the average U.S. corporation. Additionally, the average cooperative wage paid at all reporting worker cooperatives is $19.67 per hour, more than $7 higher than the minimum wage in the 13 states with the most worker co-ops.

Source: Cooperative Employee Wage Now Avg.19.67 per hour | NCBA CLUSA

Another source that states the same thing as what was stated above:

https://cameonetwork.org/wp-content/uploads/2020/02/2019-Worker-Cooperative-Economic-Census-EN-FINAL_020220.pdf

This is an interesting article on how cooperatives can assist in raising wages:

https://www.fastcompany.com/90822255/worker-cooperatives-could-help-grow-wages

I can continue searching the internet, but it's all there, anyone can find this for themselves.

 

[Red Front]

How do you figure that United Airlines is a worker-owned, democratically run cooperative?

The employees bought 55% of the company in 1993.

Did it fail somehow, is that what you're trying to say?

Did it succeed like you thought it should?

Assuming that what you're saying is correct, that workers owned 55% of the stocks of the company, that in and of itself, doesn't make it a worker-owned and democratically run labor cooperative. There are many laws, policies, and practices of the company that don't qualify it as a worker-owned, democratically run company. What I am referring to, is when a company is completely owned by the workers (they don't need a labor union, as United Airlines has, because the company is the union) and every worker has a vote on who sits on the board of directors. Even if United Airlines failed, and it didn't, I never claimed that all worker-owned, democratically run companies never fail. How did you extrapolate that from what I said? What's your point?

 

[Toddsterpatriot]

Now that's a good question. You're making a reasonable demand, for evidence. Good for you. I guess maybe you dislodged your head out of your..Ok here is some info:

THE NEW COOPERATIVE WAGES​

The report also sheds light on equitable pay ratios within worker-owned firms. The vast majority of worker cooperatives have maintained a 2-to-1 pay ratio between highest- and lowest-paid workers, compared to a CEO-to-worker pay ratio of 303-to-1 at the average U.S. corporation. Additionally, the average cooperative wage paid at all reporting worker cooperatives is $19.67 per hour, more than $7 higher than the minimum wage in the 13 states with the most worker co-ops.

Source: Cooperative Employee Wage Now Avg.19.67 per hour | NCBA CLUSA

Another source that states the same thing as what was stated above:

https://cameonetwork.org/wp-content/uploads/2020/02/2019-Worker-Cooperative-Economic-Census-EN-FINAL_020220.pdf

This is an interesting article on how cooperatives can assist raise wages:

https://www.fastcompany.com/90822255/worker-cooperatives-could-help-grow-wages

I can continue searching the internet, but it's all there.

Thanks for the info.

compared to a CEO-to-worker pay ratio of 303-to-1 at the average U.S. corporation.

Wow! That's a real whopper. Do you believe that in the millions of corporations in the US, the CEO makes 303 times what the average worker makes?

 

[Toddsterpatriot]

Assuming that what you're saying is correct, that workers owned 55% of the stocks of the company, that in and of itself, doesn't make it a worker-owned and democratically run labor cooperative. There are many laws, policies, and practices of the company that don't qualify it as a worker-owned, democratically run company. What I am referring to, is when a company is completely owned by the workers (they don't need a labor union, as United Airlines has, because the company is the union) and every worker has a vote on who sits on the board of directors. Even if United Airlines failed, and it didn't, I never claimed that all worker-owned, democratically run companies never fail. How did you extrapolate that from what I said? What's your point?

Assuming that what you're saying is correct, that workers owned 55% of the stocks of the company, that in and of itself, doesn't make it a worker-owned and democratically run labor cooperative.

If the workers own 55%, they can't run it?

UAL Corporation - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

 

[Red Front]

Thanks for the info.



Wow! That's a real whopper. Do you believe that in the millions of corporations in the US, the CEO makes 303 times what the average worker makes?

I never said that in the millions of corporations that are privately owned or owned by millions of stockholders, ALL have CEOs that make 303 times what the average worker makes. When did I ever say that? I'm sorry Todd, but I think your head slipped back in there again. I had hope for you when you asked me for evidence of the higher wages claim that I made, but you've disappointed me, Todd. You're right back in there again. The article states that on average CEOs make that much more. That doesn't imply ALL CEOs make that much. I never make such a claim.

More, owning stock in a company is not the same as being a worker owner in a democratically-run worker-cooperative for the reasons I mentioned in an earlier post. This is nothing but a silly distraction and smoke screen. Even if United Airlines was what you claim it was and failed (it's not but for the sake of argument, let's indulge your stupid bullshit), it doesn't refute anything that I've said so far. I never claimed that worker-owned cooperatives never fail. When did I ever say that Todd?

 

[Toddsterpatriot]

I never said that in the millions of corporations that are privately owned or owned by stockholders, ALL have CEOs that make 303 times what the average worker makes. When did I ever say that? I'm sorry Todd, but I think your head slipped back in there again. I had hope for you when you asked me for evidence of the higher wages claim that I made, but you've disappointed me, Todd. You're right back in there again. The article states that on average CEOs make that much more. That doesn't imply ALL CEOs make that much. I never make such a claim.

More, owning stock in a company is not the same as being a worker owner in a democratically-run worker-cooperative for the reasons I mentioned in an earlier post. This is nothing but a silly distraction and smoke screen. Even if United Airlines was what you claim it was and failed (it's not but for the sake of argument, let's indulge your stupid bullshit), it doesn't refute anything that I've said so far. I never claimed that worker-owned cooperatives never fail. When did I ever say that Todd?

I never said that in the millions of corporations that are privately owned or owned by stockholders, ALL have CEOs that make 303 times what the average worker makes.

Your link said.......

compared to a CEO-to-worker pay ratio of 303-to-1 at the average U.S. corporation.

That sounds like some make more than 303 times, some make less than 303 times,
but on average....303 times.

Are you distancing yourself from that stat?

Did you pull your head out?

The article states that on average CEOs make that much more.

I know, I'm ridiculing that claim.

More, owning stock in a company is not the same as being a worker owner in a democratically-run worker-cooperative

Why not? 55% of the vote won't get the workers what they want?

 

[Red Front]

I never said that in the millions of corporations that are privately owned or owned by stockholders, ALL have CEOs that make 303 times what the average worker makes.

Your link said.......

compared to a CEO-to-worker pay ratio of 303-to-1 at the average U.S. corporation.

That sounds like some make more than 303 times, some make less than 303 times,
but on average....303 times.

Are you distancing yourself from that stat?

Did you pull your head out?

The article states that on average CEOs make that much more.

I know, I'm ridiculing that claim.

More, owning stock in a company is not the same as being a worker owner in a democratically-run worker-cooperative

Why not? 55% of the vote won't get the workers what they want?

Written by an attorney, explaining the difference between worker-owned cooperatives and employees simply owning stocks in a company. Employees owning even most of the stocks in a company collectively doesn't give them the right to vote or determine government policy.


Employee ownership has many forms. The most common in the U.S. is the employee stock ownership plan (ESOP). Cooperatives (co-ops) and other profit-sharing plans also exist as a way for employees to benefit from the company's profits during their employment with the company. However, each form of profit sharing has different benefits. This post will give a brief description of popular types of employee ownership plans. To note, there are a number of equity compensation plans available, and this post will by no means cover all of them.

ESOP

An ESOP is a retirement plan providing benefits for both employees and employers alike. First created in 1974 under the Employee Retirement Income Security Act (ERISA), the ESOP is a qualified retirement trust that does not require any contributions from the employees. As a qualified plan, an ESOP must conform to federal rules to ensure that participation does not favor some members over others. The stock of the company is held in trust and is allocated to employees. The employees do not purchase or invest any of their own money into their shares of the company and are paid the full value of their stock when they leave the company. ESOPs have various tax benefits associated with them. The repayment of the ESOP trust loan is tax deductible, and the employees do not pay tax until they receive their shares. A selling shareholder may be able to defer or completely avoid income tax on their sale of shares to an ESOP. Some states have enacted additional pro-ESOP legislation that provides assistance in creating the ESOP or can provide a tax benefit to owners that sell their shares to the ESOP.

Worker Co-Op

A co-op, or worker co-op, is an employee ownership plan where each worker has an equal share of the business. The workers all have equal votes in the governance of the business, creating a democratic business model. The length of time or rate of pay of an employee has no effect on their voting rights. The Board of Directors is typically elected by the workers, and the business follows the bylaws of the worker cooperative. Most co-ops follow the Seven Cooperative Principles created by the International Cooperative Alliance in 1994.[1] Due to their ability to create most any structure, worker cooperatives have great flexibility in determining how to run their business.

Worker Collective

Similar to co-ops, a worker collective is an employee ownership plan that is managed without hierarchy among the members. In a collective, all workers are equal and participate directly in the governance of the company. People may be delegated or delegate to committees to make some decisions on behalf of the company.

Profit-Sharing Plans

In a general profit-sharing plan, the company contributes a portion of its income into a pool that allocates the shares to eligible employees. As the name suggestions, the employees only receive a portion of the profits when the company turns a profit. The profits can be dispersed either in stock or cash form. Depending on whether the plan is styled as a cash or deferred plan, the employee may receive the profits at the time the profits are determined (cash) or are deferred to an account that is distributed at a later time (deferred). Cash profit-sharing plans require an official plan document and a trust for the plan's assets. Deferred profit-sharing plans are regulated under ERISA.

Equity Compensation Plans

The primary forms of equity compensation plans are stock option plans and stock purchase plans. Stock option plans present the employee with the right to buy shares of the company at a certain price at a specified period of time. The option must vest before the employee can purchase the stock. A stock purchase plan differs from stock options because it allows the employee to buy the stock from the company right away, with the caveat that the company can repurchase any unvested shares at the initial purchase price. In a stock option plan, all employees granted an option must have the same rights and privileges.

While each plan offers various monetary benefits to the employees, they all have the same goal: foster employee ownership in the company. Studies have shown that employee-owned companies incentivize employees to work harder and give employees the satisfaction of working “for themselves.” Each plan provides different amounts of responsibility and financial benefits along the road which makes it important for businesses to choose the right plan for their unique enterprises.

Source of the above information:

[1] The Seven Cooperative Principles are (1) open and voluntary membership, (2) democratic member control, (3) member economic participation, (4) autonomy and independence, (5) education, training, and reform, (6) co-operation among cooperatives, and (7) concern for community.

The Many Forms of Employee Ownership: ESOPs, Co-Ops, Profit-Sharing Plans, and Equity Compensation Plans

Contributing Author: Gwenllian Kern-Allely, Law Clerk Employee ownership has many forms. The most common in the U.S. is the employee stock ownership plan (ESOP). Cooperatives (co-ops) and other profit-sharing plans also exist as a way for employees to benefit from the company's profits duri...

www.bsllp.com

Here is a direct comparison...

How Esops differ from worker-owned cooperatives:

An ESOP has a completely different ownership structure. In this case a separate entity, a trust, acquires some portion — sometimes all — of a company’s stock, and holds it for the benefit of employees. The company generally appoints the trustees who administer the plan, which is largely a retirement or separation benefit. Employees’ accounts within the trust accumulate shares of the company based on various formulas, usually salaries as well as the pace of the company paying back bank loans for the purchase of company stock. The value of the shares at any given time depends on an annual independent valuation of the company. Typically, employees receive the cash value of the shares in their account upon leaving the company.

ESOPs are not cooperatives — there is no direct ownership by workers of company stock — and there is no requirement for democratic governance. Employee shares do not generally confer voting rights (except in very specific rare circumstances). That said, a growing number of ESOPs own 100 percent of their company’s stock, and that does change the nature of the enterprise. ESOP companies that invest in workforce education and have participatory structures enjoy productivity gains compared to non-participatory, non-employee-owned companies.

Source:

ESOP vs. Cooperative: Why Your Employee Ownership Choice Matters

Company owners planning to sell should understand these key differences between ESOPs and worker cooperatives. Leave a legacy of business success.

www.esoppartners.com

ESOP vs. Worker Cooperative: What's the Difference? - SOCAP Global

Here are the basic differences between two popular forms of employee ownership, Employee Stock Ownership Plans (ESOPs) and worker cooperatives.

socapglobal.com

 

[Toddsterpatriot]

A co-op, or worker co-op, is an employee ownership plan where each worker has an equal share of the business. The workers all have equal votes in the governance of the business, creating a democratic business model. The length of time or rate of pay of an employee has no effect on their voting rights. The Board of Directors is typically elected by the workers, and the business follows the bylaws of the worker cooperative. Most co-ops follow the Seven Cooperative Principles created by the International Cooperative Alliance in 1994.[1] Due to their ability to create most any structure, worker cooperatives have great flexibility in determining how to run their business.

That sounds like what United Airlines should have tried.

No reason for a pilot to have a larger vote than the guy who cleans the crumbs off the plane.

 

[Red Front]

That sounds like what United Airlines should have tried.

No reason for a pilot to have a larger vote than the guy who cleans the crumbs off the plane.

Yes, although their salaries will differ. The cleaning crew, mechanics, and pilots, everyone has an equal vote and share in the cooperative. Are you the hotshot pilot? Huh, Todd? Try flying a filthy plane, full of cockroaches and mice, that hasn't been maintained or worked on by the mechanics and electricians..etc. Everything that comes out of your keyboard, is stupid and disingenuous. Everything. The only reason I invest any time and effort in responding to your drivel-scribble is for the sake of others.

 

[Toddsterpatriot]

Yes, although their salaries will differ. The cleaning crew, mechanics, and pilots, everyone has an equal vote and share in the cooperative. Are you the hotshot pilot? Huh, Todd? Try flying a filthy plane, full of cockroaches and mice, that hasn't been maintained or worked on by the mechanics and electricians..etc. Everything that comes out of your keyboard, is stupid and disingenuous. Everything. The only reason I invest any time and effort in responding to your drivel-scribble is for the sake of others.

Right, because highly skilled mechanics are just like the guy scrubbing the vomit off the seats.