Should Jerusalem be made an international city?

[Kondor3]

No.

That is war.

To win a war, one must beat one's opponent into submission.

Next slide, please.

No, that is Population Transfer, or War in its place; an ultimatum, if the Palestinians push the Israelis that far.

A great many nations engage in Population Shifting (examples already provided in earlier posts) when pressed hard enough, and there are many non-WWII / non-Fascist examples of such activity - some of it by friendly and allied powers - extant within living memory.

Arbitrarily labeling such a thing as Fascist in an attempt to combat the thing is both understandable and disingenuous, and doomed to failure.

Years of foolhardy and pitiless Palestinian suicide-bombing and rocket-launch attacks indiscriminately directed against Israeli civilian population centers may have pushed the Israelis to the edge in this regard.

If such an expulsion comes, the Palestinians will have nobody to blame but themselves.

And all the Josef Goebbels -style fascism-mongering in the world will not change the outcome one iota.

So feel free to drone-on about Fascism in this context.

It's not going to do Your Cause one little bit of good.

 

[Hyrcanus]

No, that is Population Transfer, or War in its place; an ultimatum, if the Palestinians push the Israelis that far....

The day Israel attempts to force out millions of Palestinians so as to cleanse their republic of an unwanted minority, is the day Israel becomes a racist and Fascist state, and loses any world support they still have.

Israel will never do such a thing. NEVER.

They aren't suicidal.

 

[Kondor3]

No, that is Population Transfer, or War in its place; an ultimatum, if the Palestinians push the Israelis that far....

The day Israel attempts to force out millions of Palestinians so as to cleanse their republic of an unwanted minority, is the day Israel becomes a racist and Fascist state, and loses any world support they still have.

Yes.

You have already told us that you believe this.

"...Israel will never do such a thing. NEVER..."

You'd better HOPE they don't.

But it's coming down to that.

The map isn't political... the map isn't a stakeholder... the map doesn't care who wins or loses... the map doesn't care who lives or dies... the map simply tells the truth... it shows us Reality.

Just what do you think is going to happen when those few specks on the map are reduced in size one or two more times?

And they will be shrunk yet again, you know.

Soon.

It doesn't take a rocket scientist to read the writing on that particular wall.

"...They aren't suicidal."

Yes.

You have told us that you believe this, too.

So do I, for that matter.

We differ, however, in our perspective as to whether or not Israel will be committing suicide if it ever decides to simply expel the Palestinians and annex their few remaining scraps of land, in order to put an end to this business.

 

[Hyrcanus]

..We differ, however, in our perspective as to whether or not Israel will be committing suicide if it ever decides to simply expel the Palestinians and annex their few remaining scraps of land, in order to put an end to this business.

You really think the international community, NATO, Russia, the USA, the EU, would just lend a blind eye to Israel committing massive ethinic cleansing?

really???

 

[Hyrcanus]

There are two fair options for Jerusalem:

1. Israel keeps the Jewish Quarter and Armenian Quarter. The Palestinians get the Muslim and Christian Quarters. The Jewish areas of East Jerusalem stay with Israel, while the Arabs areas become Palestinian Jerusalem and capital of Palestine.

2. Eastern Jerusalem gets split as above, but the Old City becomes a seperate city-state, where religious rights for all are respected. Neither the flag of Israel nor Palestine will fly in this city state.

 

[Kondor3]

..We differ, however, in our perspective as to whether or not Israel will be committing suicide if it ever decides to simply expel the Palestinians and annex their few remaining scraps of land, in order to put an end to this business.

You really think the international community, NATO, Russia, the USA, the EU, would just lend a blind eye to Israel committing massive ethinic cleansing?

really???

Yes. Mostly because the Palestinians have been bombing and rocketing the Israelis for decades and the Israelis can make a viable case for self-defense, regardless of whether or not it's actually true (and it is). But - yes - I've outlined my thoughts on this already, some pages back, earlier in the day, as I recall. Those bullet-points will have to stand or fall upon their own merits and logic. The world will cluck its tongue, wag its finger, breath a sigh of relief, and go back to sleep, forgetting all about the Palestinians at the speed of light.

 

[Hyrcanus]

Yes. Mostly because the Palestinians have been bombing and rocketing the Israelis for decades and the Israelis can make a viable case for self-defense, regardless of whether or not it's actually true (and it is). But - yes - I've outlined my thoughts on this already, some pages back, earlier in the day, as I recall. Those bullet-points will have to stand or fall upon their own merits and logic. The world will cluck its tongue, wag its finger, breath a sigh of relief, and go back to sleep, forgetting all about the Palestinians at the speed of light.

The only way the world would ever even consider maybe accepting a new Nakba, is if the Arab world launches a conventional war against Israel through the West Bank, and the Palestinians flee to Jordan and Syria to escape the fighting.

However, if Israel chooses to simply decide one day that they have had enough of the Palestinian Problem, and tell the millions of Palestinians in the West Bank to move to Jordan within 1 month or be forced out at the barrel of a gun, the world would turn Israel into a true pariah state.

No diplomatic relations.

No trade.

No tourism.

All visas removed.

No defense agreemants.


Israel would then of couse whine and bitch about being unfairly treated and persecuted. But the world would tell them to piss off, as they are tired of Israel acting like the folks who have always persecuted them throughout the ages.

Don't believe me? Ask yourself why not one single Israeli political party has "expulsion and exile" as part of their political platform.

Think they would do it anyways? In your wildest, most Fascist dreams.

 

[Kondor3]

"...Think they would do it anyways?..."

They are already setting the stage. Take another look at the map.

"...In your wildest, most Fascist dreams."

I am not a stakeholder. I am a Devils' Advocate in this context. I show you a likely future.

 

[Hyrcanus]

I am not a stakeholder. I am a Devils' Advocate in this context. I show you a likely future.

Only if Israel takes a horrible turn towards Fascism.

 

[Kondor3]

I am not a stakeholder. I am a Devils' Advocate in this context. I show you a likely future.

Only if Israel takes a horrible turn towards Fascism.

Well, if THAT ain't the pot callin' the kettle black...

.

.

Talk about deep roots in Fascism...!!!

 

[alpine]

One fights fire with fire...

,

should not complain about getting burnt, right???

Another proverb, if you living in a glass house...

 

[Kondor3]

"...should not complain about getting burnt, right?..."

The Palestinians are the ones with the singed tail-feathers, actually, so, not-to-worry...

But this does nothing to illuminate the likely future of Jerusalem, as an International City or otherwise...

And the consensus amongst Realists and Pragmatists around here is that International City status is not in the cards...

It's all part of that Israeli insistence upon Jerusalem being solely in their possession and the capital of their country...

The Jews of Israel will never surrender control of the Holy City, after waiting 1900 years to get it back...

In their shoes, I'd take-up and maintain the very same stance...

I also happen to believe them... "Never again"... and that includes never again letting-go of Jerusalem.

If there ARE any future negotiations with the Palestinians, Jerusalem will NOT be on the table as a bargaining chip...

The sooner the Palestinians come to grips with this, the sooner we can coax them back towards Reality...

Because they aren't making any progress in that direction of their own accord...

 

[alpine]

"...should not complain about getting burnt, right?[/I]..."

The Palestinians are the ones with the singed tail-feathers, actually, so, not-to-worry...

In fact, I don't care if you massacare all, or if you are planning to spare woman and children, you can do whatever you like, its not my war. All I am saying, you should not be whining them hitting back while you are doing that...

...Mostly because the Palestinians have been bombing and rocketing the Israelis for decades...

If all you can do is to fight fire with fire, at least you can stop whining when your hand gets some of that, no?

 

[alpine]

"...should not complain about getting burnt, right?..."

The Palestinians are the ones with the singed tail-feathers, actually, so, not-to-worry...

But this does nothing to illuminate the likely future of Jerusalem, as an International City or otherwise...

And the consensus amongst Realists and Pragmatists around here is that International City status is not in the cards...

It's all part of that Israeli insistence upon Jerusalem being solely in their possession and the capital of their country...

The Jews of Israel will never surrender control of the Holy City, after waiting 1900 years to get it back...

In their shoes, I'd take-up and maintain the very same stance...

I also happen to believe them... "Never again"... and that includes never again letting-go of Jerusalem.

If there ARE any future negotiations with the Palestinians, Jerusalem will NOT be on the table as a bargaining chip...

The sooner the Palestinians come to grips with this, the sooner we can coax them back towards Reality...

Because they aren't making any progress in that direction of their own accord...

Yeah, I believe that, considering the fact that radical Jews has the potential to assassinate anybody who would put Jerusalem on the table to stop the bloodshed, it would be tough to find another Rabin...

 

[Hyrcanus]

...If there ARE any future negotiations with the Palestinians, Jerusalem will NOT be on the table as a bargaining chip....

You appear to believe some interesting things.

1. Israel will eventually exile all Palestinians with force.

2. Israel will never again put Jerusalem in peace negotiations.

Whatever, bro.

 

[Hyrcanus]

Yeah, I believe that, considering the fact that radical Jews has the potential to assassinate anybody who would put Jerusalem on the table to stop the bloodshed, it would be tough to find another Rabin...

Yes, this is why the 2 state solution may be dead.

A peace plan that gives away the vast majority of the West Bank will likely cause an Israeli civil war.

 

[Kondor3]

"... If all you can do is to fight fire with fire, at least you can stop whining when your hand gets some of that, no?"

I don't hear the Israelis whining; more like telling folks to stay-the-<bleep> outta their face.

 

[Hyrcanus]

I don't hear the Israelis whining; more like telling folks to stay-the-<bleep> outta their face.

The settlements make up less than 2% of the land area of the West Bank.

Which means its far from too late to give the Palestinians 95% of the West Bank as a future Palestine.

 

[Kondor3]

...If there ARE any future negotiations with the Palestinians, Jerusalem will NOT be on the table as a bargaining chip....

You appear to believe some interesting things.

1. Israel will eventually exile all Palestinians with force.

2. Israel will never again put Jerusalem in peace negotiations.

Whatever, bro.

I believe that (1) is one of the more likely outcomes of the present situation.

I believe that (2) is an iron-clad certainty.

Hope that helps.

 

[Hyrcanus]

I believe that (1) is one of the more likely outcomes of the present situation....

so you think that Israelis are Fascists?

interesting.