Should Jerusalem be made an international city?

[Lipush]

My uncle was one of the Parachutes that took part in freeing Jerusalem. Every time I see those pictures it gives me a warm feeling inside

 

[Saigon]

Considering that three major religions claim holy sites there?

If you mean the Old City then probably so, yes. (Western or New Jerusalem is obviously Israeli). Certainly many Israeli's would accept that as part of a long-term settlement.

It's not an ideal soluton by any means, but it is probably the only viable compromise for both sides.

Although I see there are a couple of pages of hysterical shrieking about the term "international city", there are several different precedents for such a concept - such as the Vatican, for one. Also, the UN zone at Quneitra or even the DMZ's in Korea and Viet Nam.

I can imagine the Old City being under UN mandate, with equal access to it from both east (Damascus Gate) and west (King David's Gate). It would require a major UN presence at the Wailing Wall, but there are already dozens of Israeli soldiers there now.

 

[Saigon]

Jewish claim: Built the city; Site of the Temples; capital of Jewish world before exile; referenced dozens of times in Tanach

Christian claim: Site of major events in New Testament

Muslim claim: Not mentioned at all in Koran; Built mosques on Jewish holy sites after conquering territory

Why are we even having this discussion?

Because international borders are not based upon religious texts.

Neither Canada, Germany nor Italy are mentioned in the bible either - do they not exist?

Set all of the silly squabbling aside and what we are left with are two peoples who can both claim residence of the Old City dating back around 3,000 years.

Trying to invalidate either claim is pointless and dishonest - and usually made by people who do not understand the local geography to understand where the New City ends and the Old City begins.

 

[Kondor3]

Given that they've had possession of ALL of Jerusalem for nearly a half-century... 46 years... since 1967... and that they've tried Land-for-Peace deals several times in the past, and always been burned, somehow, I don't think that the Jews (Israelis) are going to give up Jerusalem again - ever. We could probably time-warp ahead 200 years and still be having this same conversation, although, by then, the few scraps of Palestinian-controlled land will have long-since been annexed to Israel, the Arabs on that land expelled from the country and living elsewhere for several generations already, and so-called 'Palestine' will be little more than a footnote in archaic historical narratives - forgotten by a world much-relieved to see those all-but-insane and combative folk dispersed and neutralized; scattered to the four winds and off everyone's scopes.

 

[Saigon]

Kondor -

Israel would never be asked to "give up Jerusalem". The issue only involves the Old City, and even then it would be shared under UN supverision.

- forgotten by a world much-relieved to see those all-but-insane and combative folk dispersed and neutralized;

At times in history people said the same about Jews; not to mention Kurds, Sikhs, Hmong or East Timorese. Of those peoples - which ones have disappeared and been forgotten?

 

[Kondor3]

Kondor -

Israel would never be asked to "give up Jerusalem". The issue only involves the Old City, and even then it would be shared under UN supverision.

Understood, Saigon. I simply do not foresee circumstances under which Israel would cede any aspect of control, sovereignty, oversight, whatever, which they now possess, in connection with Jerusalem - East, West, Old, New, whatever.

Whomever controls Jerusalem (Jews, Christians, Muslims... Byzantines, Franks, Arabs, Turks, British, Israelis, whatever) is considered (by tradition) to have a sacred trust to make the Holy Places accessible to all and to provide safe passage to-and-from same.

The Jews (Israelis) are every bit as capable of fulfilling that role as anyone else.

Given UN intransigence and ambivalence towards Israel at best, and UN General Assembly animosity and bias against Israel at worst, and given the failure of UN peace initiatives and land-for-peace deals over time, the Israelis have little reason to trust the UN.

Given that the Jews waited 1900 years to reclaim the Holy City and finally achieved that as a result of the 1967 Six-Day War, and given their poisoned relationship with the UN, my own 'take' on this is that UN control of Jerusalem - any part of it - is a nonstarter.

- forgotten by a world much-relieved to see those all-but-insane and combative folk dispersed and neutralized;

At times in history people said the same about Jews; not to mention Kurds, Sikhs, Hmong or East Timorese. Of those peoples - which ones have disappeared and been forgotten?

None of the examples that you provided had disappeared.

The Jews held-out because they had a unique and advanced (for ancient times) monotheistic religious belief-system which allowed them to weather a two-millennia -long Diaspora.

The rest because they always had at least some land on which to dwell as an organized people.

The so-called 'Palestinian People' are - organizationally speaking - an artificial construct which has only surfaced to distinguish them from their otherwise entirely indistinguishable regional ethnic brethren in recent decades - insufficient history and depth and traction to endure a Disaspora of 200 years, never mind 2000.

Many 'Losing-Side' populations and population-fragments end-up assimilating into the surrounding countryside and quickly disappear as a separately distinguishable 'People'; including many not mentioned in your earlier examples, such as Canaanites, Philistines, Carthaginians, Assyrians, Samaritans, Scythians, Parthians, Sumerians, Akkadians, etc..

Genetically, they're still 'there', so-to-speak - embedded within the present-day populations of their former regions - but they no longer exist as a functional (or even nominal) polity, from an organizational standpoint.

Such is likely to be the fate of this Johnny-Come-Lately artificial construct known as the so-called 'Palestinian'. They will still 'be there', so-to-speak, genetically embedded in the surrounding countryside populations. It's just that they will have disappeared off the scope as a functional (or even nominal) polity. Insufficient history, depth and traction.

Of course, I could be entirely wrong... full of $hit clean up to my ears... over this, but, stepping-back for the 5000-foot view, and looking at the multi-generational, multi-century long-haul, my money is on me being more right than wrong, on this one.

Our descendants will know whether there was any merit to such speculation, but we won't live long enough to learn the answers.

 

[Saigon]

Kondor -

You make some very good points there.

Many 'Losing-Side' populations and population-fragments end-up assimilating into the surrounding countryside and quickly disappear as a separately distinguishable 'People'; including many ot mentioned in your earlier examples, such as Cananites, Phillistines, Assyrians, Samaritans, Scythians, Parthians, Sumerians, Akkadians, etc..

This is true, and had modern events in the Levant taken place 1,000 years earlier, perhaps Palestinians would have gone the way of the Samaritans, but as with the Sikhs, Hmong and Kurds, today there is too much global interaction to make it easy for peoples to disappear - only in Africa are the eyes of the world closed to the conflicts.

Thus, Palestinianism will still be with us 100 years from now, which is why Israel must ignore the 'might is right' lobby on this board and forge a solution which amounts to more than punting the issue down to the grandkids.

If Israel is to be at peace in 2100, it needs to begin to find solutions in 2013.

 

[Jroc]

Considering that three major religions claim holy sites there?

If you mean the Old City then probably so, yes. (Western or New Jerusalem is obviously Israeli). Certainly many Israeli's would accept that as part of a long-term settlement.

It's not an ideal soluton by any means, but it is probably the only viable compromise for both sides.

Although I see there are a couple of pages of hysterical shrieking about the term "international city", there are several different precedents for such a concept - such as the Vatican, for one. Also, the UN zone at Quneitra or even the DMZ's in Korea and Viet Nam.

I can imagine the Old City being under UN mandate, with equal access to it from both east (Damascus Gate) and west (King David's Gate). It would require a major UN presence at the Wailing Wall, but there are already dozens of Israeli soldiers there now.

Keep imagining that's as far as it's going to get

 

[pbel]

humm, I have to ask for some verification of the bolded section please.


and as the the afore mentioned segment- a) of course they knew they would win (???), b) preemptive as in say closing the straits of Tiran? c) ever heard of the Egyptian war plan called "The Dawn"...and how that wound up?

six day war - Yahoo! Search Results

On the eve of the war, Egypt massed approximately 100,000 of its 160,000 troops in the Sinai, including all of its seven divisions (four infantry, two armored and one mechanized), four independent infantry brigades and four independent armored brigades. No fewer than a third of them were veterans of Egypt's intervention into the Yemen Civil War and another third were reservists. These forces had 950 tanks, 1,100 APCs and more than 1,000 artillery pieces.[78]


The Israeli army had a total strength, including reservists, of 264,000,


Controversies relating to the Six-Day War - Ask.com Encyclopedia

On the other hand, the Arab view was that it was an unjustified attack.[14] After the war, Israeli officials admitted that Israel wasn't expecting to be attacked when it initiated hostilities against Egypt.[15][16] Mordechai Bentov, an Israeli cabinet minister who attended the June 4th Cabinet meeting, called into question the idea that there was a "danger of extermination" saying that it was "invented of whole cloth and exaggerated after the fact to justify the annexation of new Arab territories."[17][18] Menachem Begin said that "The Egyptian army concentrations in the Sinai approaches do not prove that Nasser was really about to attack us. (...) We decided to attack him".[19][20] Israel received reports from the United States to the effect that Egyptian deployments were defensive and anticipatory of a possible Israeli attack,[21] and the US assessed that if anything, it was Israel that was pressing to begin hostilities.[18] Abba Eban, Israel's foreign minister during the war, later wrote in his autobiography that Nasser's assurances he wasn't planning to attack Israel were credible: "Nasser did not want war. He wanted victory without war." [22] Israeli military historian Martin van Creveld has written that while the exact origins of the war may never be known, Israel's forces were "spoiling for a fight and willing to go to considerable lengths to provoke one".[23] Israel's attack isn't seen as fulfilling the criteria of the Caroline test for anticipatory self-defence.[24]

that 264,00 were their total forces, Egypt was not the only arab belligerent for Christs sake....

I am not going to argue wiki entrys, that are totally devoid of context and other machinations that took place at the time, like, operation Dawn I mentioned that Begin et al were fully aware of, and so to the US , as Nasser called the operation off at that point Israel was of 2 minds, yet the straits were till closed, they could not afford to keep their reservists in the field on alert forever, there was no UN buffer, Israel knew that the ussr was feeding the nasser false information regards an attack by Israel into Syria etc.

Sounds like you play the Israel Victim Card like the usual cry babies....Israel's army not only matched and exceeded all the Arab forces but the US technological weapons made the six day war an easy victory...You don't like Wikipedia... it is a legitimate source used by many on this board and the world...If you have better info on the numbers post them...


Six-Day War - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Arab preparations

On the eve of the war, Egypt massed approximately 100,000 of its 160,000 troops in the Sinai, including all of its seven divisions (four infantry, two armored and one mechanized), four independent infantry brigades and four independent armored brigades. No fewer than a third of them were veterans of Egypt's intervention into the Yemen Civil War and another third were reservists. These forces had 950 tanks, 1,100 APCs and more than 1,000 artillery pieces.[78]

At the same time some Egyptian troops (15,000–20,000) were still fighting in Yemen.[79][80][81] Nasser's ambivalence about his goals and objectives was reflected in his orders to the military. The general staff changed the operational plan four times in May 1967, each change requiring the redeployment of troops, with the inevitable toll on both men and vehicles.[82]

Towards the end of May, Nasser finally forbade the general staff from proceeding with the Qahir ("Victory") plan, which called for a light infantry screen in the forward fortifications with the bulk of the forces held back to conduct a massive counterattack against the main Israeli advance when identified, and ordered a forward defense of the Sinai.[82] In the meantime, he continued to take actions intended to increase the level of mobilization of Egypt, Syria and Jordan, in order to bring pressure on Israel.

Syria's army had a total strength of 75,000 and amassed them along the Syrian border.[83] Jordan's army had 55,000 troops[84] and 300 tanks along the Jordanian border, 250 of which were U.S. M48 Patton, sizable amounts of M113 APCs, a new battalion of mechanized infantry, and a paratrooper battalion trained in the new U.S.-built school. They also had 12 battalions of artillery and six batteries of 81 mm and 120 mm mortars.[85]

Documents captured by the Israelis from various Jordanian command posts record orders from the end of May for the Hashemite Brigade to capture Ramot Burj Bir Mai'in in a night raid, codenamed "Operation Khaled". The aim was to establish a bridgehead together with positions in Latrun for an armored capture of Lod and Ramle. The "go" codeword was Sa'ek and end was Nasser. The Jordanians planned for the capture of Motza and Sha'alvim in the strategic Jerusalem Corridor. Motza was tasked to Infantry Brigade 27 camped near Ma'ale Adummim: "The reserve brigade will commence a nighttime infiltration onto Motza, will destroy it to the foundation, and won't leave a remnant or refugee from among its 800 residents".[85]

100 Iraqi tanks and an infantry division were readied near the Jordanian border. Two squadrons of fighter-aircraft, Hawker Hunters and MiG 21, were rebased adjacent to the Jordanian border.[85]

On June 2, Jordan called up all reserve officers, and the West Bank commander met with community leaders in Ramallah to request assistance and cooperation for his troops during the war, assuring them that "in three days we'll be in Tel-Aviv".[85]

The Arab air forces were aided by volunteer pilots from the Pakistan Air Force acting in independent capacity, and by some aircraft from Libya, Algeria, Morocco, Kuwait, and Saudi Arabia to make up for the massive losses suffered on the first day of the war. The PAF Pilots shot down several Israeli planes.[2]

Israeli preparations

 

[Roudy]

six day war - Yahoo! Search Results

On the eve of the war, Egypt massed approximately 100,000 of its 160,000 troops in the Sinai, including all of its seven divisions (four infantry, two armored and one mechanized), four independent infantry brigades and four independent armored brigades. No fewer than a third of them were veterans of Egypt's intervention into the Yemen Civil War and another third were reservists. These forces had 950 tanks, 1,100 APCs and more than 1,000 artillery pieces.[78]


The Israeli army had a total strength, including reservists, of 264,000,


Controversies relating to the Six-Day War - Ask.com Encyclopedia

On the other hand, the Arab view was that it was an unjustified attack.[14] After the war, Israeli officials admitted that Israel wasn't expecting to be attacked when it initiated hostilities against Egypt.[15][16] Mordechai Bentov, an Israeli cabinet minister who attended the June 4th Cabinet meeting, called into question the idea that there was a "danger of extermination" saying that it was "invented of whole cloth and exaggerated after the fact to justify the annexation of new Arab territories."[17][18] Menachem Begin said that "The Egyptian army concentrations in the Sinai approaches do not prove that Nasser was really about to attack us. (...) We decided to attack him".[19][20] Israel received reports from the United States to the effect that Egyptian deployments were defensive and anticipatory of a possible Israeli attack,[21] and the US assessed that if anything, it was Israel that was pressing to begin hostilities.[18] Abba Eban, Israel's foreign minister during the war, later wrote in his autobiography that Nasser's assurances he wasn't planning to attack Israel were credible: "Nasser did not want war. He wanted victory without war." [22] Israeli military historian Martin van Creveld has written that while the exact origins of the war may never be known, Israel's forces were "spoiling for a fight and willing to go to considerable lengths to provoke one".[23] Israel's attack isn't seen as fulfilling the criteria of the Caroline test for anticipatory self-defence.[24]

that 264,00 were their total forces, Egypt was not the only arab belligerent for Christs sake....

I am not going to argue wiki entrys, that are totally devoid of context and other machinations that took place at the time, like, operation Dawn I mentioned that Begin et al were fully aware of, and so to the US , as Nasser called the operation off at that point Israel was of 2 minds, yet the straits were till closed, they could not afford to keep their reservists in the field on alert forever, there was no UN buffer, Israel knew that the ussr was feeding the nasser false information regards an attack by Israel into Syria etc.

Sounds like you play the Israel Victim Card like the usual cry babies....Israel's army not only matched and exceeded all the Arab forces but the US technological weapons made the six day war an easy victory...You don't like Wikipedia... it is a legitimate source used by many on this board and the world...If you have better info on the numbers post them...


Six-Day War - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Arab preparations

On the eve of the war, Egypt massed approximately 100,000 of its 160,000 troops in the Sinai, including all of its seven divisions (four infantry, two armored and one mechanized), four independent infantry brigades and four independent armored brigades. No fewer than a third of them were veterans of Egypt's intervention into the Yemen Civil War and another third were reservists. These forces had 950 tanks, 1,100 APCs and more than 1,000 artillery pieces.[78]

At the same time some Egyptian troops (15,000–20,000) were still fighting in Yemen.[79][80][81] Nasser's ambivalence about his goals and objectives was reflected in his orders to the military. The general staff changed the operational plan four times in May 1967, each change requiring the redeployment of troops, with the inevitable toll on both men and vehicles.[82]

Towards the end of May, Nasser finally forbade the general staff from proceeding with the Qahir ("Victory") plan, which called for a light infantry screen in the forward fortifications with the bulk of the forces held back to conduct a massive counterattack against the main Israeli advance when identified, and ordered a forward defense of the Sinai.[82] In the meantime, he continued to take actions intended to increase the level of mobilization of Egypt, Syria and Jordan, in order to bring pressure on Israel.

Syria's army had a total strength of 75,000 and amassed them along the Syrian border.[83] Jordan's army had 55,000 troops[84] and 300 tanks along the Jordanian border, 250 of which were U.S. M48 Patton, sizable amounts of M113 APCs, a new battalion of mechanized infantry, and a paratrooper battalion trained in the new U.S.-built school. They also had 12 battalions of artillery and six batteries of 81 mm and 120 mm mortars.[85]

Documents captured by the Israelis from various Jordanian command posts record orders from the end of May for the Hashemite Brigade to capture Ramot Burj Bir Mai'in in a night raid, codenamed "Operation Khaled". The aim was to establish a bridgehead together with positions in Latrun for an armored capture of Lod and Ramle. The "go" codeword was Sa'ek and end was Nasser. The Jordanians planned for the capture of Motza and Sha'alvim in the strategic Jerusalem Corridor. Motza was tasked to Infantry Brigade 27 camped near Ma'ale Adummim: "The reserve brigade will commence a nighttime infiltration onto Motza, will destroy it to the foundation, and won't leave a remnant or refugee from among its 800 residents".[85]

100 Iraqi tanks and an infantry division were readied near the Jordanian border. Two squadrons of fighter-aircraft, Hawker Hunters and MiG 21, were rebased adjacent to the Jordanian border.[85]

On June 2, Jordan called up all reserve officers, and the West Bank commander met with community leaders in Ramallah to request assistance and cooperation for his troops during the war, assuring them that "in three days we'll be in Tel-Aviv".[85]

The Arab air forces were aided by volunteer pilots from the Pakistan Air Force acting in independent capacity, and by some aircraft from Libya, Algeria, Morocco, Kuwait, and Saudi Arabia to make up for the massive losses suffered on the first day of the war. The PAF Pilots shot down several Israeli planes.[2]

Israeli preparations

There are some that expected Israel sit there and do nothing when all these Arab countries committed an act of war by amassing their troops at Israel's borders, with their leaders declaring "we will drive the Jews into the sea". That's not how it works.

 

[Jroc]

that 264,00 were their total forces, Egypt was not the only arab belligerent for Christs sake....

I am not going to argue wiki entrys, that are totally devoid of context and other machinations that took place at the time, like, operation Dawn I mentioned that Begin et al were fully aware of, and so to the US , as Nasser called the operation off at that point Israel was of 2 minds, yet the straits were till closed, they could not afford to keep their reservists in the field on alert forever, there was no UN buffer, Israel knew that the ussr was feeding the nasser false information regards an attack by Israel into Syria etc.

Sounds like you play the Israel Victim Card like the usual cry babies....Israel's army not only matched and exceeded all the Arab forces but the US technological weapons made the six day war an easy victory...You don't like Wikipedia... it is a legitimate source used by many on this board and the world...If you have better info on the numbers post them...


Six-Day War - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Arab preparations

On the eve of the war, Egypt massed approximately 100,000 of its 160,000 troops in the Sinai, including all of its seven divisions (four infantry, two armored and one mechanized), four independent infantry brigades and four independent armored brigades. No fewer than a third of them were veterans of Egypt's intervention into the Yemen Civil War and another third were reservists. These forces had 950 tanks, 1,100 APCs and more than 1,000 artillery pieces.[78]

At the same time some Egyptian troops (15,000–20,000) were still fighting in Yemen.[79][80][81] Nasser's ambivalence about his goals and objectives was reflected in his orders to the military. The general staff changed the operational plan four times in May 1967, each change requiring the redeployment of troops, with the inevitable toll on both men and vehicles.[82]

Towards the end of May, Nasser finally forbade the general staff from proceeding with the Qahir ("Victory") plan, which called for a light infantry screen in the forward fortifications with the bulk of the forces held back to conduct a massive counterattack against the main Israeli advance when identified, and ordered a forward defense of the Sinai.[82] In the meantime, he continued to take actions intended to increase the level of mobilization of Egypt, Syria and Jordan, in order to bring pressure on Israel.

Syria's army had a total strength of 75,000 and amassed them along the Syrian border.[83] Jordan's army had 55,000 troops[84] and 300 tanks along the Jordanian border, 250 of which were U.S. M48 Patton, sizable amounts of M113 APCs, a new battalion of mechanized infantry, and a paratrooper battalion trained in the new U.S.-built school. They also had 12 battalions of artillery and six batteries of 81 mm and 120 mm mortars.[85]

Documents captured by the Israelis from various Jordanian command posts record orders from the end of May for the Hashemite Brigade to capture Ramot Burj Bir Mai'in in a night raid, codenamed "Operation Khaled". The aim was to establish a bridgehead together with positions in Latrun for an armored capture of Lod and Ramle. The "go" codeword was Sa'ek and end was Nasser. The Jordanians planned for the capture of Motza and Sha'alvim in the strategic Jerusalem Corridor. Motza was tasked to Infantry Brigade 27 camped near Ma'ale Adummim: "The reserve brigade will commence a nighttime infiltration onto Motza, will destroy it to the foundation, and won't leave a remnant or refugee from among its 800 residents".[85]

100 Iraqi tanks and an infantry division were readied near the Jordanian border. Two squadrons of fighter-aircraft, Hawker Hunters and MiG 21, were rebased adjacent to the Jordanian border.[85]

On June 2, Jordan called up all reserve officers, and the West Bank commander met with community leaders in Ramallah to request assistance and cooperation for his troops during the war, assuring them that "in three days we'll be in Tel-Aviv".[85]

The Arab air forces were aided by volunteer pilots from the Pakistan Air Force acting in independent capacity, and by some aircraft from Libya, Algeria, Morocco, Kuwait, and Saudi Arabia to make up for the massive losses suffered on the first day of the war. The PAF Pilots shot down several Israeli planes.[2]

Israeli preparations

There are some that expected Israel sit there and do nothing when all these Arab countries committed an act of war by amassing their troops at Israel's borders, with their leaders declaring "we will drive the Jews into the sea". That's not how it works.

There was a time when Jews sat and waited to be slaughtered..that time has passed....Some long for that time to return and some of those on this board

 

[pbel]

that 264,00 were their total forces, Egypt was not the only arab belligerent for Christs sake....

I am not going to argue wiki entrys, that are totally devoid of context and other machinations that took place at the time, like, operation Dawn I mentioned that Begin et al were fully aware of, and so to the US , as Nasser called the operation off at that point Israel was of 2 minds, yet the straits were till closed, they could not afford to keep their reservists in the field on alert forever, there was no UN buffer, Israel knew that the ussr was feeding the nasser false information regards an attack by Israel into Syria etc.

Sounds like you play the Israel Victim Card like the usual cry babies....Israel's army not only matched and exceeded all the Arab forces but the US technological weapons made the six day war an easy victory...You don't like Wikipedia... it is a legitimate source used by many on this board and the world...If you have better info on the numbers post them...


Six-Day War - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Arab preparations

On the eve of the war, Egypt massed approximately 100,000 of its 160,000 troops in the Sinai, including all of its seven divisions (four infantry, two armored and one mechanized), four independent infantry brigades and four independent armored brigades. No fewer than a third of them were veterans of Egypt's intervention into the Yemen Civil War and another third were reservists. These forces had 950 tanks, 1,100 APCs and more than 1,000 artillery pieces.[78]

At the same time some Egyptian troops (15,000–20,000) were still fighting in Yemen.[79][80][81] Nasser's ambivalence about his goals and objectives was reflected in his orders to the military. The general staff changed the operational plan four times in May 1967, each change requiring the redeployment of troops, with the inevitable toll on both men and vehicles.[82]

Towards the end of May, Nasser finally forbade the general staff from proceeding with the Qahir ("Victory") plan, which called for a light infantry screen in the forward fortifications with the bulk of the forces held back to conduct a massive counterattack against the main Israeli advance when identified, and ordered a forward defense of the Sinai.[82] In the meantime, he continued to take actions intended to increase the level of mobilization of Egypt, Syria and Jordan, in order to bring pressure on Israel.

Syria's army had a total strength of 75,000 and amassed them along the Syrian border.[83] Jordan's army had 55,000 troops[84] and 300 tanks along the Jordanian border, 250 of which were U.S. M48 Patton, sizable amounts of M113 APCs, a new battalion of mechanized infantry, and a paratrooper battalion trained in the new U.S.-built school. They also had 12 battalions of artillery and six batteries of 81 mm and 120 mm mortars.[85]

Documents captured by the Israelis from various Jordanian command posts record orders from the end of May for the Hashemite Brigade to capture Ramot Burj Bir Mai'in in a night raid, codenamed "Operation Khaled". The aim was to establish a bridgehead together with positions in Latrun for an armored capture of Lod and Ramle. The "go" codeword was Sa'ek and end was Nasser. The Jordanians planned for the capture of Motza and Sha'alvim in the strategic Jerusalem Corridor. Motza was tasked to Infantry Brigade 27 camped near Ma'ale Adummim: "The reserve brigade will commence a nighttime infiltration onto Motza, will destroy it to the foundation, and won't leave a remnant or refugee from among its 800 residents".[85]

100 Iraqi tanks and an infantry division were readied near the Jordanian border. Two squadrons of fighter-aircraft, Hawker Hunters and MiG 21, were rebased adjacent to the Jordanian border.[85]

On June 2, Jordan called up all reserve officers, and the West Bank commander met with community leaders in Ramallah to request assistance and cooperation for his troops during the war, assuring them that "in three days we'll be in Tel-Aviv".[85]

The Arab air forces were aided by volunteer pilots from the Pakistan Air Force acting in independent capacity, and by some aircraft from Libya, Algeria, Morocco, Kuwait, and Saudi Arabia to make up for the massive losses suffered on the first day of the war. The PAF Pilots shot down several Israeli planes.[2]

Israeli preparations

There are some that expected Israel sit there and do nothing when all these Arab countries committed an act of war by amassing their troops at Israel's borders, with their leaders declaring "we will drive the Jews into the sea". That's not how it works.

The truth lives on no matter how many lies are posted on these boards...

AOL Search

In the same Israeli newspaper on the same day, General Ezer Weizmann, Chief of Operations during the war and a nephew of Chaim Weizmann, was quoted as saying: “There was never any danger of annihilation. This hypothesis has never been considered in any serious meeting.”

In the spring of 1972, General Matetiyahu Peled, Chief of Logistical Command during the war and one of 12 members of Israel’s General Staff, addressed a political literary club in Tel Aviv. He said: “The thesis according to which the danger of genocide hung over us in June 1967, and according to which Israel was fighting for her very physical survival, was nothing but a bluff which was born and bred after the war.”

In a radio debate Peled also said: “Israel was never in real danger and there was no evidence that Egypt had any intention of attacking Israel.” He added that “Israeli intelligence knew that Egypt was not prepared for war.”

In the same programme General Chaim Herzog (former Director of Military Intelligence, future Israeli Ambassador to the UN and President of his state) said: “There was no danger of annihilation. Neither Israeli headquarters nor the Pentagon – as the memoirs of President Johnson proved – believed in this danger.”

 

[Trajan]

six day war - Yahoo! Search Results

On the eve of the war, Egypt massed approximately 100,000 of its 160,000 troops in the Sinai, including all of its seven divisions (four infantry, two armored and one mechanized), four independent infantry brigades and four independent armored brigades. No fewer than a third of them were veterans of Egypt's intervention into the Yemen Civil War and another third were reservists. These forces had 950 tanks, 1,100 APCs and more than 1,000 artillery pieces.[78]


The Israeli army had a total strength, including reservists, of 264,000,


Controversies relating to the Six-Day War - Ask.com Encyclopedia

On the other hand, the Arab view was that it was an unjustified attack.[14] After the war, Israeli officials admitted that Israel wasn't expecting to be attacked when it initiated hostilities against Egypt.[15][16] Mordechai Bentov, an Israeli cabinet minister who attended the June 4th Cabinet meeting, called into question the idea that there was a "danger of extermination" saying that it was "invented of whole cloth and exaggerated after the fact to justify the annexation of new Arab territories."[17][18] Menachem Begin said that "The Egyptian army concentrations in the Sinai approaches do not prove that Nasser was really about to attack us. (...) We decided to attack him".[19][20] Israel received reports from the United States to the effect that Egyptian deployments were defensive and anticipatory of a possible Israeli attack,[21] and the US assessed that if anything, it was Israel that was pressing to begin hostilities.[18] Abba Eban, Israel's foreign minister during the war, later wrote in his autobiography that Nasser's assurances he wasn't planning to attack Israel were credible: "Nasser did not want war. He wanted victory without war." [22] Israeli military historian Martin van Creveld has written that while the exact origins of the war may never be known, Israel's forces were "spoiling for a fight and willing to go to considerable lengths to provoke one".[23] Israel's attack isn't seen as fulfilling the criteria of the Caroline test for anticipatory self-defence.[24]

that 264,00 were their total forces, Egypt was not the only arab belligerent for Christs sake....

I am not going to argue wiki entrys, that are totally devoid of context and other machinations that took place at the time, like, operation Dawn I mentioned that Begin et al were fully aware of, and so to the US , as Nasser called the operation off at that point Israel was of 2 minds, yet the straits were till closed, they could not afford to keep their reservists in the field on alert forever, there was no UN buffer, Israel knew that the ussr was feeding the nasser false information regards an attack by Israel into Syria etc.

Sounds like you play the Israel Victim Card like the usual cry babies....Israel's army not only matched and exceeded all the Arab forces but the US technological weapons made the six day war an easy victory...You don't like Wikipedia... it is a legitimate source used by many on this board and the world...If you have better info on the numbers post them...


Six-Day War - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Arab preparations

On the eve of the war, Egypt massed approximately 100,000 of its 160,000 troops in the Sinai, including all of its seven divisions (four infantry, two armored and one mechanized), four independent infantry brigades and four independent armored brigades. No fewer than a third of them were veterans of Egypt's intervention into the Yemen Civil War and another third were reservists. These forces had 950 tanks, 1,100 APCs and more than 1,000 artillery pieces.[78]

At the same time some Egyptian troops (15,000–20,000) were still fighting in Yemen.[79][80][81] Nasser's ambivalence about his goals and objectives was reflected in his orders to the military. The general staff changed the operational plan four times in May 1967, each change requiring the redeployment of troops, with the inevitable toll on both men and vehicles.[82]

Towards the end of May, Nasser finally forbade the general staff from proceeding with the Qahir ("Victory") plan, which called for a light infantry screen in the forward fortifications with the bulk of the forces held back to conduct a massive counterattack against the main Israeli advance when identified, and ordered a forward defense of the Sinai.[82] In the meantime, he continued to take actions intended to increase the level of mobilization of Egypt, Syria and Jordan, in order to bring pressure on Israel.

Syria's army had a total strength of 75,000 and amassed them along the Syrian border.[83] Jordan's army had 55,000 troops[84] and 300 tanks along the Jordanian border, 250 of which were U.S. M48 Patton, sizable amounts of M113 APCs, a new battalion of mechanized infantry, and a paratrooper battalion trained in the new U.S.-built school. They also had 12 battalions of artillery and six batteries of 81 mm and 120 mm mortars.[85]

Documents captured by the Israelis from various Jordanian command posts record orders from the end of May for the Hashemite Brigade to capture Ramot Burj Bir Mai'in in a night raid, codenamed "Operation Khaled". The aim was to establish a bridgehead together with positions in Latrun for an armored capture of Lod and Ramle. The "go" codeword was Sa'ek and end was Nasser. The Jordanians planned for the capture of Motza and Sha'alvim in the strategic Jerusalem Corridor. Motza was tasked to Infantry Brigade 27 camped near Ma'ale Adummim: "The reserve brigade will commence a nighttime infiltration onto Motza, will destroy it to the foundation, and won't leave a remnant or refugee from among its 800 residents".[85]

100 Iraqi tanks and an infantry division were readied near the Jordanian border. Two squadrons of fighter-aircraft, Hawker Hunters and MiG 21, were rebased adjacent to the Jordanian border.[85]

On June 2, Jordan called up all reserve officers, and the West Bank commander met with community leaders in Ramallah to request assistance and cooperation for his troops during the war, assuring them that "in three days we'll be in Tel-Aviv".[85]

The Arab air forces were aided by volunteer pilots from the Pakistan Air Force acting in independent capacity, and by some aircraft from Libya, Algeria, Morocco, Kuwait, and Saudi Arabia to make up for the massive losses suffered on the first day of the war. The PAF Pilots shot down several Israeli planes.[2]

Israeli preparations

you are challenged when it comes to reading comprehension as well, I will take one more shot at this- there is no victim mentality pointing out facts, the fact is your numbers are wrong, you are bucketing Israels forces all on one front, they had more than one front to fight on...hello, Jordanians, Syrians to the east etc., taken in the whole they were heavily out numbered in every facet...... look at Bhunters post. this is fact, I am sorry if thats inconvenient for you.

I never said wiki wasn't Wikipedia... " a legitimate source" wiki is a poster board of snippets, unless you have actually read BOOKs and deep dive into the personalties involved etc. 2-3 sentences does not lend context to the whole, I can pick a few sentences out of almost anything to make it appear the one and only view fact and utterance to make a specific point viable, its a too convenient way for folks like you, whom I call "Google Rangers" to pretend to be informed after running out to perform a 2-3 minute search to find a link that they may be able to pull some nugget tpo make it appear as if they have a handle on the background.

if wiki is your back stop, fine here ya go-

israel
50,000 troops
214,000 reserves
300 combat aircraft
800 tanks[3]

Total troops: 264,000
100,000 deployed



Egypt: 240,000
Syria, Jordan, and Iraq: 307,000
957 combat aircraft
2,504 tanks[3]

Total troops: 547,000
240,000 deployed

thats from bhunters post and its from wiki......so what now?

 

[Roudy]

Sounds like you play the Israel Victim Card like the usual cry babies....Israel's army not only matched and exceeded all the Arab forces but the US technological weapons made the six day war an easy victory...You don't like Wikipedia... it is a legitimate source used by many on this board and the world...If you have better info on the numbers post them...


Six-Day War - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Arab preparations

On the eve of the war, Egypt massed approximately 100,000 of its 160,000 troops in the Sinai, including all of its seven divisions (four infantry, two armored and one mechanized), four independent infantry brigades and four independent armored brigades. No fewer than a third of them were veterans of Egypt's intervention into the Yemen Civil War and another third were reservists. These forces had 950 tanks, 1,100 APCs and more than 1,000 artillery pieces.[78]

At the same time some Egyptian troops (15,000–20,000) were still fighting in Yemen.[79][80][81] Nasser's ambivalence about his goals and objectives was reflected in his orders to the military. The general staff changed the operational plan four times in May 1967, each change requiring the redeployment of troops, with the inevitable toll on both men and vehicles.[82]

Towards the end of May, Nasser finally forbade the general staff from proceeding with the Qahir ("Victory") plan, which called for a light infantry screen in the forward fortifications with the bulk of the forces held back to conduct a massive counterattack against the main Israeli advance when identified, and ordered a forward defense of the Sinai.[82] In the meantime, he continued to take actions intended to increase the level of mobilization of Egypt, Syria and Jordan, in order to bring pressure on Israel.

Syria's army had a total strength of 75,000 and amassed them along the Syrian border.[83] Jordan's army had 55,000 troops[84] and 300 tanks along the Jordanian border, 250 of which were U.S. M48 Patton, sizable amounts of M113 APCs, a new battalion of mechanized infantry, and a paratrooper battalion trained in the new U.S.-built school. They also had 12 battalions of artillery and six batteries of 81 mm and 120 mm mortars.[85]

Documents captured by the Israelis from various Jordanian command posts record orders from the end of May for the Hashemite Brigade to capture Ramot Burj Bir Mai'in in a night raid, codenamed "Operation Khaled". The aim was to establish a bridgehead together with positions in Latrun for an armored capture of Lod and Ramle. The "go" codeword was Sa'ek and end was Nasser. The Jordanians planned for the capture of Motza and Sha'alvim in the strategic Jerusalem Corridor. Motza was tasked to Infantry Brigade 27 camped near Ma'ale Adummim: "The reserve brigade will commence a nighttime infiltration onto Motza, will destroy it to the foundation, and won't leave a remnant or refugee from among its 800 residents".[85]

100 Iraqi tanks and an infantry division were readied near the Jordanian border. Two squadrons of fighter-aircraft, Hawker Hunters and MiG 21, were rebased adjacent to the Jordanian border.[85]

On June 2, Jordan called up all reserve officers, and the West Bank commander met with community leaders in Ramallah to request assistance and cooperation for his troops during the war, assuring them that "in three days we'll be in Tel-Aviv".[85]

The Arab air forces were aided by volunteer pilots from the Pakistan Air Force acting in independent capacity, and by some aircraft from Libya, Algeria, Morocco, Kuwait, and Saudi Arabia to make up for the massive losses suffered on the first day of the war. The PAF Pilots shot down several Israeli planes.[2]

Israeli preparations

There are some that expected Israel sit there and do nothing when all these Arab countries committed an act of war by amassing their troops at Israel's borders, with their leaders declaring "we will drive the Jews into the sea". That's not how it works.

The truth lives on no matter how many lies are posted on these boards...

AOL Search

In the same Israeli newspaper on the same day, General Ezer Weizmann, Chief of Operations during the war and a nephew of Chaim Weizmann, was quoted as saying: “There was never any danger of annihilation. This hypothesis has never been considered in any serious meeting.”

In the spring of 1972, General Matetiyahu Peled, Chief of Logistical Command during the war and one of 12 members of Israel’s General Staff, addressed a political literary club in Tel Aviv. He said: “The thesis according to which the danger of genocide hung over us in June 1967, and according to which Israel was fighting for her very physical survival, was nothing but a bluff which was born and bred after the war.”

In a radio debate Peled also said: “Israel was never in real danger and there was no evidence that Egypt had any intention of attacking Israel.” He added that “Israeli intelligence knew that Egypt was not prepared for war.”

In the same programme General Chaim Herzog (former Director of Military Intelligence, future Israeli Ambassador to the UN and President of his state) said: “There was no danger of annihilation. Neither Israeli headquarters nor the Pentagon – as the memoirs of President Johnson proved – believed in this danger.”

"There was no evidence that an attack was imminent." Yeah right! Only 5 Arab countries had moved their troops at Israel's borders and led by the Egyptian leader, the Arab world was in a frenzy over the possible destruction of Israel.

Seriously, an aol search? You gotta be kidding me.

 

[Trajan]

Considering that three major religions claim holy sites there?

If you mean the Old City then probably so, yes. (Western or New Jerusalem is obviously Israeli). Certainly many Israeli's would accept that as part of a long-term settlement.

It's not an ideal soluton by any means, but it is probably the only viable compromise for both sides.

Although I see there are a couple of pages of hysterical shrieking about the term "international city", there are several different precedents for such a concept - such as the Vatican, for one. Also, the UN zone at Quneitra or even the DMZ's in Korea and Viet Nam.

I can imagine the Old City being under UN mandate, with equal access to it from both east (Damascus Gate) and west (King David's Gate). It would require a major UN presence at the Wailing Wall, but there are already dozens of Israeli soldiers there now.

I think Israel has done an admirable job providing access considering all the angst involved on both sides and mistrust, they have had their issues no doubt, so has the 'others'. The UN is a very fickle org., they run when the heat goes up, and I don't see them helping at all except to porvdie another propaganda victory.

And, my last point on that, I don't think the UN has demonstrated the trust required to administer that type of situation, most especially when it involves Israel without bias.

 

[Trajan]

There are some that expected Israel sit there and do nothing when all these Arab countries committed an act of war by amassing their troops at Israel's borders, with their leaders declaring "we will drive the Jews into the sea". That's not how it works.

The truth lives on no matter how many lies are posted on these boards...

AOL Search

In the same Israeli newspaper on the same day, General Ezer Weizmann, Chief of Operations during the war and a nephew of Chaim Weizmann, was quoted as saying: “There was never any danger of annihilation. This hypothesis has never been considered in any serious meeting.”

In the spring of 1972, General Matetiyahu Peled, Chief of Logistical Command during the war and one of 12 members of Israel’s General Staff, addressed a political literary club in Tel Aviv. He said: “The thesis according to which the danger of genocide hung over us in June 1967, and according to which Israel was fighting for her very physical survival, was nothing but a bluff which was born and bred after the war.”

In a radio debate Peled also said: “Israel was never in real danger and there was no evidence that Egypt had any intention of attacking Israel.” He added that “Israeli intelligence knew that Egypt was not prepared for war.”

In the same programme General Chaim Herzog (former Director of Military Intelligence, future Israeli Ambassador to the UN and President of his state) said: “There was no danger of annihilation. Neither Israeli headquarters nor the Pentagon – as the memoirs of President Johnson proved – believed in this danger.”

"There was no evidence that an attack was imminent." Yeah right! Only 5 Arab countries had moved their troops at Israel's borders and led by the Egyptian leader, the Arab world was in a frenzy over the possible destruction of Israel.

Seriously, an aol search? You gotta be kidding me.

he using alan hart net. or some such other sites, fodder for the simple who like their views reinforced or fed to them in bytes.....the thesis being that the whole war was a set up by DC with the collusion of iraq syria and jordan...yea...

Peled is lets say engaged in some revisionist history, he was a stanch advocate of attacking first to remove the air superiority threat as he felt at the time that was their greatest battlefield threat and he did believe the Egyptians would attack, once they could be certain ( and they never were and we were to see later the Syrians are very devious and double dealers) that Syria would fulfill their part and attack when they did.

Later on he became what I term as the Howard Zinn of Israel. Hes also been refuted several times by the very same folks he comments on, and has been accused of making, to put it lightly contradictory statements and mixing up his f'acts''. I have no issue with his stance as in hes certainly entitled to it, like Zinn, I think he became disappointed in where Israel went there after on a policy basis, hes earned his right to his view but I would take his comments with a huge grain of salt especially as he became a political figure and helped form the PLP. his comments and advocacy for direct negotiations ( and with whom he met) the PLO only 2 years after the Munich massacre tell you all you need to know about his motivations and mindset.
His comments for example on the Yom Kippur war are, well, not exactly based in the reality of the situation at the time.

Of course everything I have just said here is a total surprise to pbel et al......thats why I really don't like wiki btw.

 

[Roudy]

The truth lives on no matter how many lies are posted on these boards...

AOL Search

In the same Israeli newspaper on the same day, General Ezer Weizmann, Chief of Operations during the war and a nephew of Chaim Weizmann, was quoted as saying: “There was never any danger of annihilation. This hypothesis has never been considered in any serious meeting.”

In the spring of 1972, General Matetiyahu Peled, Chief of Logistical Command during the war and one of 12 members of Israel’s General Staff, addressed a political literary club in Tel Aviv. He said: “The thesis according to which the danger of genocide hung over us in June 1967, and according to which Israel was fighting for her very physical survival, was nothing but a bluff which was born and bred after the war.”

In a radio debate Peled also said: “Israel was never in real danger and there was no evidence that Egypt had any intention of attacking Israel.” He added that “Israeli intelligence knew that Egypt was not prepared for war.”

In the same programme General Chaim Herzog (former Director of Military Intelligence, future Israeli Ambassador to the UN and President of his state) said: “There was no danger of annihilation. Neither Israeli headquarters nor the Pentagon – as the memoirs of President Johnson proved – believed in this danger.”

"There was no evidence that an attack was imminent." Yeah right! Only 5 Arab countries had moved their troops at Israel's borders and led by the Egyptian leader, the Arab world was in a frenzy over the possible destruction of Israel.

Seriously, an aol search? You gotta be kidding me.

he using alan hart net. or somew ushc other sites.....the thesis being that the whole war was a set up by DC with the collusion of iraq syria and jordan...yea...

Yup. Now if they would have been successful in 1967, I doubt they would be singing the same tune as they are now.

 

[Saigon]

I think Israel has done an admirable job providing access considering all the angst involved on both sides and mistrust, they have had their issues no doubt, so has the 'others'. The UN is a very fickle org., they run when the heat goes up, and I don't see them helping at all except to porvdie another propaganda victory.

And, my last point on that, I don't think the UN has demonstrated the trust required to administer that type of situation, most especially when it involves Israel without bias.

By and large, yes they have done a decent job, but there are reasons why the home team does not provide the referees for the Stanley Cup finals, and the same rules apply here.

The UN has an excellent record in both Southern Lebanon and Golan, and are the only party suited to do the job. I have no idea what you mean here by "fickle"; their role in peacekeeping in the region dates back decades and has largely been on a very high standard.

 

[pbel]

that 264,00 were their total forces, Egypt was not the only arab belligerent for Christs sake....

I am not going to argue wiki entrys, that are totally devoid of context and other machinations that took place at the time, like, operation Dawn I mentioned that Begin et al were fully aware of, and so to the US , as Nasser called the operation off at that point Israel was of 2 minds, yet the straits were till closed, they could not afford to keep their reservists in the field on alert forever, there was no UN buffer, Israel knew that the ussr was feeding the nasser false information regards an attack by Israel into Syria etc.

Sounds like you play the Israel Victim Card like the usual cry babies....Israel's army not only matched and exceeded all the Arab forces but the US technological weapons made the six day war an easy victory...You don't like Wikipedia... it is a legitimate source used by many on this board and the world...If you have better info on the numbers post them...


Six-Day War - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Arab preparations

On the eve of the war, Egypt massed approximately 100,000 of its 160,000 troops in the Sinai, including all of its seven divisions (four infantry, two armored and one mechanized), four independent infantry brigades and four independent armored brigades. No fewer than a third of them were veterans of Egypt's intervention into the Yemen Civil War and another third were reservists. These forces had 950 tanks, 1,100 APCs and more than 1,000 artillery pieces.[78]

At the same time some Egyptian troops (15,000–20,000) were still fighting in Yemen.[79][80][81] Nasser's ambivalence about his goals and objectives was reflected in his orders to the military. The general staff changed the operational plan four times in May 1967, each change requiring the redeployment of troops, with the inevitable toll on both men and vehicles.[82]

Towards the end of May, Nasser finally forbade the general staff from proceeding with the Qahir ("Victory") plan, which called for a light infantry screen in the forward fortifications with the bulk of the forces held back to conduct a massive counterattack against the main Israeli advance when identified, and ordered a forward defense of the Sinai.[82] In the meantime, he continued to take actions intended to increase the level of mobilization of Egypt, Syria and Jordan, in order to bring pressure on Israel.

Syria's army had a total strength of 75,000 and amassed them along the Syrian border.[83] Jordan's army had 55,000 troops[84] and 300 tanks along the Jordanian border, 250 of which were U.S. M48 Patton, sizable amounts of M113 APCs, a new battalion of mechanized infantry, and a paratrooper battalion trained in the new U.S.-built school. They also had 12 battalions of artillery and six batteries of 81 mm and 120 mm mortars.[85]

Documents captured by the Israelis from various Jordanian command posts record orders from the end of May for the Hashemite Brigade to capture Ramot Burj Bir Mai'in in a night raid, codenamed "Operation Khaled". The aim was to establish a bridgehead together with positions in Latrun for an armored capture of Lod and Ramle. The "go" codeword was Sa'ek and end was Nasser. The Jordanians planned for the capture of Motza and Sha'alvim in the strategic Jerusalem Corridor. Motza was tasked to Infantry Brigade 27 camped near Ma'ale Adummim: "The reserve brigade will commence a nighttime infiltration onto Motza, will destroy it to the foundation, and won't leave a remnant or refugee from among its 800 residents".[85]

100 Iraqi tanks and an infantry division were readied near the Jordanian border. Two squadrons of fighter-aircraft, Hawker Hunters and MiG 21, were rebased adjacent to the Jordanian border.[85]

On June 2, Jordan called up all reserve officers, and the West Bank commander met with community leaders in Ramallah to request assistance and cooperation for his troops during the war, assuring them that "in three days we'll be in Tel-Aviv".[85]

The Arab air forces were aided by volunteer pilots from the Pakistan Air Force acting in independent capacity, and by some aircraft from Libya, Algeria, Morocco, Kuwait, and Saudi Arabia to make up for the massive losses suffered on the first day of the war. The PAF Pilots shot down several Israeli planes.[2]

Israeli preparations

you are challenged when it comes to reading comprehension as well, I will take one more shot at this- there is no victim mentality pointing out facts, the fact is your numbers are wrong, you are bucketing Israels forces all on one front, they had more than one front to fight on...hello, Jordanians, Syrians to the east etc., taken in the whole they were heavily out numbered in every facet...... look at Bhunters post. this is fact, I am sorry if thats inconvenient for you.

I never said wiki wasn't Wikipedia... " a legitimate source" wiki is a poster board of snippets, unless you have actually read BOOKs and deep dive into the personalties involved etc. 2-3 sentences does not lend context to the whole, I can pick a few sentences out of almost anything to make it appear the one and only view fact and utterance to make a specific point viable, its a too convenient way for folks like you, whom I call "Google Rangers" to pretend to be informed after running out to perform a 2-3 minute search to find a link that they may be able to pull some nugget tpo make it appear as if they have a handle on the background.

if wiki is your back stop, fine here ya go-

israel
50,000 troops
214,000 reserves
300 combat aircraft
800 tanks[3]

Total troops: 264,000
100,000 deployed



Egypt: 240,000
Syria, Jordan, and Iraq: 307,000
957 combat aircraft
2,504 tanks[3]

Total troops: 547,000
240,000 deployed

thats from bhunters post and its from wiki......so what now?

The song and dance goes on...Israel was in no danger of being invaded, its the same ME posturing of today...Israel's Pre-Emptive strike was a war of aggression planned to conquor the West Bank and Sinai...It was a War Of aggression and not your Victim Hood bullshit stories you pass for truth.

 

[Trajan]

Kondor -

You make some very good points there.

Many 'Losing-Side' populations and population-fragments end-up assimilating into the surrounding countryside and quickly disappear as a separately distinguishable 'People'; including many ot mentioned in your earlier examples, such as Cananites, Phillistines, Assyrians, Samaritans, Scythians, Parthians, Sumerians, Akkadians, etc..

This is true, and had modern events in the Levant taken place 1,000 years earlier, perhaps Palestinians would have gone the way of the Samaritans, but as with the Sikhs, Hmong and Kurds, today there is too much global interaction to make it easy for peoples to disappear - only in Africa are the eyes of the world closed to the conflicts.

Thus, Palestinianism will still be with us 100 years from now, which is why Israel must ignore the 'might is right' lobby on this board and forge a solution which amounts to more than punting the issue down to the grandkids.

If Israel is to be at peace in 2100, it needs to begin to find solutions in 2013.

are these solutions only to be searched for by Israel?