Should religion be eliminated

[sealybobo]

There's quite a bit of opposition to religion here. I am just wondering how many of you people believe religion should be eliminated. It's been tried before and failed, but don't let that deter you in your quest.

Learn from their mistakes and give it another try.

Why the Soviet attempt to stamp out religion failed | Giles Fraser: Loose canon

I am truly sorry that the people you listen to have convinced you that liberals hate the christian god and want to destroy christianity.
LOTS of liberals ARE practicing christians. MOST Atheists merely don't believe in god and don't care if you do or not. Part of the problem is that when liberals try to deny conservatives the right to impose their religion on every one conservatives claim it is persecution. I am not actively trying to destroy religion. I am actively ignoring it.

Yes, lots of Christians are liberals. No argument there.

I hear a lot of people say that conservatives want to oppose their religion on them but I don’t see that. What I do see are citizens exercising their civic rights in a secular society.

No one is forcing religion on you. That’s an emotional statement.

And lastly the vast majority of militant atheists are liberals.

"No one is forcing religion on you. That’s an emotional statement."

There are elements of the evangelical community called DOMINIONSTS. They actually exist. They believe they should have dominion over the country, the government and the people. Newt Gingrich said (back in the 1990s) "we must change the laws of the land to reflect our religious beliefs and see to it that they can never be changed again". Mike Pence said "I am a christian first, a conservative second, and a republican third"....Never mentioned his patriotism. If he has any.

Because you are emotionally stunted and the truth scare you you can't admit the truth.

Keep trying!

Research the founders beliefs on natural law and get back to me.

Based on this religion should be eliminated by anyone with intelligence.


(1) Question authority. No idea is true just because someone says so, including me.

(2) Think for yourself. Question yourself. Don't believe anything just because you want to. Believing something doesn't make it so.

(3) Test ideas by the evidence gained from observation and experiment. If a favorite idea fails a well-designed test, it's wrong. Get over it.

(4) Follow the evidence wherever it leads. If you have no evidence, reserve judgment.

And perhaps the most important rule of all...

(5) Remember: you could be wrong. Even the best scientists have been wrong about some things. Newton, Einstein, and every other great scientist in history -- they all made mistakes. Of course they did. They were human.

Science is a way to keep from fooling ourselves, and each other.

 

[ding]

I don’t know what you mean by generic. I believe all people pray to the same God. Logically there is only one. They may have a different perception of who God is and I don’t see anything wrong with that. I believe our Founding Fathers got that part right.

In the context of what you are discussing the question is whether God is a personal or impersonal God. For all our sakes I pray he is a personal God.

A generic creator. One that created the universe but didn't make Adam and Eve on purpose and doesn't have a heaven waiting for us.

There could be a creator but it never visited and doesn't care about you any more than you care about a bird or bug.

One who created existence where the laws of nature predestined beings that know and create? That doesn’t sound like an accident.

If he doesn’t care about right and wrong then where did we get our strong beliefs about them?

You made it up.

Funny, but no.

You can laugh but you believe something just because ancient goat herders of yester yore made up a story. Seriously, the stories you and the churches tell get thrown out if you use the scientific method. And don't tell me in order to understand I have to throw out science or practice the same cognitive dissonance you are suffering from.

a method of procedure that has characterized natural science since the 17th century, consisting in systematic observation, measurement, and experiment, and the formulation, testing, and modification of hypotheses.

• Make an Observation. Scientists are naturally curious about the world. ...
• Form a Question. After making an interesting observation, a scientific mind itches to find out more about it. ...
• Form a Hypothesis. ...
• Conduct an Experiment. ...
• Analyse the Data and Draw a Conclusion.

You have formed a hypothesis but after that your hypothesis gets thrown out because you can't conduct an experiment. Conclusion? Your ancient goat herders made it up and you swallow it. Now that's funny.

Try and stay focused on the current question.

Go back and reread it if you need to.

 

[ding]

There's quite a bit of opposition to religion here. I am just wondering how many of you people believe religion should be eliminated. It's been tried before and failed, but don't let that deter you in your quest.

Learn from their mistakes and give it another try.

Why the Soviet attempt to stamp out religion failed | Giles Fraser: Loose canon

I am truly sorry that the people you listen to have convinced you that liberals hate the christian god and want to destroy christianity.
LOTS of liberals ARE practicing christians. MOST Atheists merely don't believe in god and don't care if you do or not. Part of the problem is that when liberals try to deny conservatives the right to impose their religion on every one conservatives claim it is persecution. I am not actively trying to destroy religion. I am actively ignoring it.

Yes, lots of Christians are liberals. No argument there.

I hear a lot of people say that conservatives want to oppose their religion on them but I don’t see that. What I do see are citizens exercising their civic rights in a secular society.

No one is forcing religion on you. That’s an emotional statement.

And lastly the vast majority of militant atheists are liberals.

"No one is forcing religion on you. That’s an emotional statement."

There are elements of the evangelical community called DOMINIONSTS. They actually exist. They believe they should have dominion over the country, the government and the people. Newt Gingrich said (back in the 1990s) "we must change the laws of the land to reflect our religious beliefs and see to it that they can never be changed again". Mike Pence said "I am a christian first, a conservative second, and a republican third"....Never mentioned his patriotism. If he has any.

Because you are emotionally stunted and the truth scare you you can't admit the truth.

Keep trying!

Research the founders beliefs on natural law and get back to me.

Based on this religion should be eliminated by anyone with intelligence.


(1) Question authority. No idea is true just because someone says so, including me.

(2) Think for yourself. Question yourself. Don't believe anything just because you want to. Believing something doesn't make it so.

(3) Test ideas by the evidence gained from observation and experiment. If a favorite idea fails a well-designed test, it's wrong. Get over it.

(4) Follow the evidence wherever it leads. If you have no evidence, reserve judgment.

And perhaps the most important rule of all...

(5) Remember: you could be wrong. Even the best scientists have been wrong about some things. Newton, Einstein, and every other great scientist in history -- they all made mistakes. Of course they did. They were human.

Science is a way to keep from fooling ourselves, and each other.

So you follow the religion of science?

 

[Cecilie1200]

You sure that’s all religions provide?

Yes.

Would you bet your life on it?

Dead is Dead. There aren't any virgins waiting for you no matter what your handlers are telling you.

That’s good because i wasn’t expecting any.

But you didn’t answer my question. Would you bet your life that all religion has provided is a warm and fuzzy feeling?

Sure I did. Dead Is Dead.

Sorry, but that answer makes no sense in the context of the question.

 

[Cecilie1200]

Smart people have eliminated religions and have simply gone on a personal spiritual path. Simpletons still cling to the myths and folly.

I just heard, "I need atheism to make me feel smart, because I have nothing else."

It must suck to have to work so hard at feeling smart. I wouldn't know, having been ACTUALLY smart my whole life. You have my sympathy.

 

[Cecilie1200]

Smart people have eliminated religions and have simply gone on a personal spiritual path. Simpletons still cling to the myths and folly.

You mean like God Lite. All the good and none of the accountability. Makes sense.

Yes, we can look at our society, drifting aimlessly with no moral underpinnings to anchor it, and see the results of all these pseudo-smart people and their God-substitutes.

 

[Cecilie1200]

Smart people have eliminated religions and have simply gone on a personal spiritual path. Simpletons still cling to the myths and folly.

You mean like God Lite. All the good and none of the accountability. Makes sense.

It's better than being guilty and afraid all the time.

I look around at the world and can't help but think we could stand for a lot more people to feel guilty more often.

As for fear, I cannot begin to count the number of ways your worldview is scarier than mine. The fact that you think Christians live in fear just goes to prove you neither know nor interact with Christians, and that you really don't understand the concept of fear very well.

 

[Taz]

Smart people have eliminated religions and have simply gone on a personal spiritual path. Simpletons still cling to the myths and folly.

I just heard, "I need atheism to make me feel smart, because I have nothing else."

It must suck to have to work so hard at feeling smart. I wouldn't know, having been ACTUALLY smart my whole life. You have my sympathy.

Next time you go to church, look around, it's a bunch of simpletons, like you.

 

[Taz]

Smart people have eliminated religions and have simply gone on a personal spiritual path. Simpletons still cling to the myths and folly.

You mean like God Lite. All the good and none of the accountability. Makes sense.

Yes, we can look at our society, drifting aimlessly with no moral underpinnings to anchor it, and see the results of all these pseudo-smart people and their God-substitutes.

The US is "One nation under god". How's that working out?

 

[Taz]

Smart people have eliminated religions and have simply gone on a personal spiritual path. Simpletons still cling to the myths and folly.

You mean like God Lite. All the good and none of the accountability. Makes sense.

It's better than being guilty and afraid all the time.

I look around at the world and can't help but think we could stand for a lot more people to feel guilty more often.

As for fear, I cannot begin to count the number of ways your worldview is scarier than mine. The fact that you think Christians live in fear just goes to prove you neither know nor interact with Christians, and that you really don't understand the concept of fear very well.

You live in fear of your god. I feel sorry for you. Almost.

 

[Cecilie1200]

I don't really think it's possible to eliminate religion, per se. Religion (in a very broad sense) plays some fundamental role in what it means to be human. .

Speak for yourself.

Sounds to me like religion is playing a very fundamental role in your life, in the sense that anti-religion appears to have become your religion.

 

[Cecilie1200]

There is no ‘opposition to religion’ on USMB.

No one advocates for religion to be ‘eliminated.’

If it is bad as everyone says it is the logical conclusion would be to eliminate it. Right? Am I missing something?

For me the question is the vulnerable nature of our species, more specifically human psychology. Talk about eliminating religion and/or statism is beside the point. It’s aspects of psychology ( especially mass psychology) that make our species vulnerable to the control/ brainwashing of both organised religious and state authority that are the central problem. Instance, the yogi meditating in a mountain cave is a threat to nobody, popes and dictators are. Take for instance an extreme example, the teaching of Islam on the rewards to be gained in heaven for martyrs and the power this gives organised militant Islam.

Sweetie, I know you need to flatter yourself that atheists are somehow less susceptible to "brainwashing", but trust me, self-flattery is all it is.

The truth is that humans are built to need to believe in something larger than themselves. If it's not religion, it's going to be "look how much smarter I am than the primitives around me".

 

[well named]

The truth is that humans are built to need to believe in something larger than themselves. If it's not religion, it's going to be "look how much smarter I am than the primitives around me".

Typically it's both

 

[Cecilie1200]

There's quite a bit of opposition to religion here. I am just wondering how many of you people believe religion should be eliminated. It's been tried before and failed, but don't let that deter you in your quest.

Learn from their mistakes and give it another try.

Why the Soviet attempt to stamp out religion failed | Giles Fraser: Loose canon

I am truly sorry that the people you listen to have convinced you that liberals hate the christian god and want to destroy christianity.
LOTS of liberals ARE practicing christians. MOST Atheists merely don't believe in god and don't care if you do or not. Part of the problem is that when liberals try to deny conservatives the right to impose their religion on every one conservatives claim it is persecution. I am not actively trying to destroy religion. I am actively ignoring it.

No, ALL of the problem is that leftists think any time they're aware of someone else's Christian beliefs, it's "religion being imposed on them".

 

[Cecilie1200]

Even if all religion could somehow be banned we’d still be faced with the reality of human psychology and the peculiar evolutionary detritus left over from the survival value of group think and mass psychology. So, the central problem isn’t any of the human invented myths of idiology, fairies up in the sky, Shakti, Shiva or any other absurdities, it’s what we are that’s the problem.
Dictatorial ideology knew this and still does. Even President Toadstool understands the power of mass rallies over his Trumpanzees. Not much different from sunday mass really.

You can't ban a $1.2 trillion industry.

You really need to learn that words have actual meanings.

 

[sealybobo]

I am truly sorry that the people you listen to have convinced you that liberals hate the christian god and want to destroy christianity.
LOTS of liberals ARE practicing christians. MOST Atheists merely don't believe in god and don't care if you do or not. Part of the problem is that when liberals try to deny conservatives the right to impose their religion on every one conservatives claim it is persecution. I am not actively trying to destroy religion. I am actively ignoring it.

Yes, lots of Christians are liberals. No argument there.

I hear a lot of people say that conservatives want to oppose their religion on them but I don’t see that. What I do see are citizens exercising their civic rights in a secular society.

No one is forcing religion on you. That’s an emotional statement.

And lastly the vast majority of militant atheists are liberals.

"No one is forcing religion on you. That’s an emotional statement."

There are elements of the evangelical community called DOMINIONSTS. They actually exist. They believe they should have dominion over the country, the government and the people. Newt Gingrich said (back in the 1990s) "we must change the laws of the land to reflect our religious beliefs and see to it that they can never be changed again". Mike Pence said "I am a christian first, a conservative second, and a republican third"....Never mentioned his patriotism. If he has any.

Because you are emotionally stunted and the truth scare you you can't admit the truth.

Keep trying!

Research the founders beliefs on natural law and get back to me.

Based on this religion should be eliminated by anyone with intelligence.


(1) Question authority. No idea is true just because someone says so, including me.

(2) Think for yourself. Question yourself. Don't believe anything just because you want to. Believing something doesn't make it so.

(3) Test ideas by the evidence gained from observation and experiment. If a favorite idea fails a well-designed test, it's wrong. Get over it.

(4) Follow the evidence wherever it leads. If you have no evidence, reserve judgment.

And perhaps the most important rule of all...

(5) Remember: you could be wrong. Even the best scientists have been wrong about some things. Newton, Einstein, and every other great scientist in history -- they all made mistakes. Of course they did. They were human.

Science is a way to keep from fooling ourselves, and each other.

So you follow the religion of science?

Nothing science says is gospel. We've been over this before. You like arguing in circles? You like arguing things we've already explained to you?

imply because you or the scientific community lack a complete understanding of something does not imply a theistic explanation carries any value. Even if there exists some topic on which science can never speak, any understanding could potentially evade us forever – supernatural or metaphysical speculation would not automatically be correct. Uncertainty is the most legitimate position.

Lightning, earthquakes, volcanos, disease, mental illness, speciation, planetary orbitsand numerous other phenomena have been historically labelled ‘supernatural’ only to later be more thoroughly and elegantly explained by science. In fact, every mystery ever demonstrably solved has had a non-supernatural explanation. To suggest that science cannot or will not explain a phenomena, and that only theism can, is hubris of the highest order.

Science observes the physical universe, makes models of how it works and then refines those models through further observation. When something interacts with the physical universe, such as through light, motion, sound, heat, mass or gravity, it becomes a natural phenomena and thus open to scientific inquiry. If it does not interact with the physical universe then it cannot be said to exist in any meaningful or perceivable way.

 

[sealybobo]

I am truly sorry that the people you listen to have convinced you that liberals hate the christian god and want to destroy christianity.
LOTS of liberals ARE practicing christians. MOST Atheists merely don't believe in god and don't care if you do or not. Part of the problem is that when liberals try to deny conservatives the right to impose their religion on every one conservatives claim it is persecution. I am not actively trying to destroy religion. I am actively ignoring it.

Yes, lots of Christians are liberals. No argument there.

I hear a lot of people say that conservatives want to oppose their religion on them but I don’t see that. What I do see are citizens exercising their civic rights in a secular society.

No one is forcing religion on you. That’s an emotional statement.

And lastly the vast majority of militant atheists are liberals.

"No one is forcing religion on you. That’s an emotional statement."

There are elements of the evangelical community called DOMINIONSTS. They actually exist. They believe they should have dominion over the country, the government and the people. Newt Gingrich said (back in the 1990s) "we must change the laws of the land to reflect our religious beliefs and see to it that they can never be changed again". Mike Pence said "I am a christian first, a conservative second, and a republican third"....Never mentioned his patriotism. If he has any.

Because you are emotionally stunted and the truth scare you you can't admit the truth.

Keep trying!

Research the founders beliefs on natural law and get back to me.

Based on this religion should be eliminated by anyone with intelligence.


(1) Question authority. No idea is true just because someone says so, including me.

(2) Think for yourself. Question yourself. Don't believe anything just because you want to. Believing something doesn't make it so.

(3) Test ideas by the evidence gained from observation and experiment. If a favorite idea fails a well-designed test, it's wrong. Get over it.

(4) Follow the evidence wherever it leads. If you have no evidence, reserve judgment.

And perhaps the most important rule of all...

(5) Remember: you could be wrong. Even the best scientists have been wrong about some things. Newton, Einstein, and every other great scientist in history -- they all made mistakes. Of course they did. They were human.

Science is a way to keep from fooling ourselves, and each other.

So you follow the religion of science?

I am truly sorry that the people you listen to have convinced you that liberals hate the christian god and want to destroy christianity.
LOTS of liberals ARE practicing christians. MOST Atheists merely don't believe in god and don't care if you do or not. Part of the problem is that when liberals try to deny conservatives the right to impose their religion on every one conservatives claim it is persecution. I am not actively trying to destroy religion. I am actively ignoring it.

Yes, lots of Christians are liberals. No argument there.

I hear a lot of people say that conservatives want to oppose their religion on them but I don’t see that. What I do see are citizens exercising their civic rights in a secular society.

No one is forcing religion on you. That’s an emotional statement.

And lastly the vast majority of militant atheists are liberals.

"No one is forcing religion on you. That’s an emotional statement."

There are elements of the evangelical community called DOMINIONSTS. They actually exist. They believe they should have dominion over the country, the government and the people. Newt Gingrich said (back in the 1990s) "we must change the laws of the land to reflect our religious beliefs and see to it that they can never be changed again". Mike Pence said "I am a christian first, a conservative second, and a republican third"....Never mentioned his patriotism. If he has any.

Because you are emotionally stunted and the truth scare you you can't admit the truth.

Keep trying!

Research the founders beliefs on natural law and get back to me.

Based on this religion should be eliminated by anyone with intelligence.


(1) Question authority. No idea is true just because someone says so, including me.

(2) Think for yourself. Question yourself. Don't believe anything just because you want to. Believing something doesn't make it so.

(3) Test ideas by the evidence gained from observation and experiment. If a favorite idea fails a well-designed test, it's wrong. Get over it.

(4) Follow the evidence wherever it leads. If you have no evidence, reserve judgment.

And perhaps the most important rule of all...

(5) Remember: you could be wrong. Even the best scientists have been wrong about some things. Newton, Einstein, and every other great scientist in history -- they all made mistakes. Of course they did. They were human.

Science is a way to keep from fooling ourselves, and each other.

So you follow the religion of science?

Nothing could be further from the truth. Science is not a “belief system” but a process and methodology for seeking an objective reality. Of course because scientific exploration is a human endeavor it comes with all the flaws of humanity: ego, short-sightedness, corruption and greed. But unlike a “belief system” such as religion untethered to an objective truth, science is over time self-policing; competing scientists have a strong incentive to corroborate and build on the findings of others; but equally, to prove other scientists wrong by means that can be duplicated by others. Nobody is doing experiments to demonstrate how Noah could live to 600 years old, because those who believe that story are not confined to reproducible evidence to support their belief. But experiments were done to show the earth orbits the sun, not the other way around.

Science Is Not Religion | HuffPost

 

[Cecilie1200]

There was an interesting study published recently, which I haven't really managed to get around to digesting fully, on the origins of what the authors call WEIRD psychology (that being the psychology of people living in Western, Educated, Industrialized, Rich, and Democratic countries), and the ways in which Christian institutions (particularly the Catholic church) played a role in its formation. From the abstract:

"We propose that much of this variation arose as people psychologically adapted to
differing kin-based institutions—the set of social norms governing descent, marriage, residence and related
domains. We further propose that part of the variation in these institutions arose historically from the
Catholic Church’s marriage and family policies, which contributed to the dissolution of Europe’s traditional
kin-based institutions, leading eventually to the predominance of nuclear families and impersonal
institutions. By combining data on 20 psychological outcomes with historical measures of both kinship and
Church exposure, we find support for these ideas in a comprehensive array of analyses across countries,
among European regions and between individuals with different cultural backgrounds."
​

I seem to recall someone mentioned Weber and the concept of the Protestant Work Ethic earlier in this thread. The above provides maybe an interesting and updated complement to that idea.

I have a different take on Weber. We are happiest when we use our talents to create. Things like forgiveness, confessing our sins, prayer, giving thanks and random acts of kindness all have practical benefits which increases our happiness. It has been said that success leads to happiness but it is happiness which leads to success. When we are happy we perform all things better than when we are negative, neutral or stressed. Being happy does two things. It releases dopamine and turns on all the learning centers of the brain. So I am not surprised that people who practice the things that make us happy experience success in all things.

Also, religion teaches us much more fundamentally satisfying ways of defining happiness and success both.

 

[Cecilie1200]

Even if all religion could somehow be banned we’d still be faced with the reality of human psychology and the peculiar evolutionary detritus left over from the survival value of group think and mass psychology. So, the central problem isn’t any of the human invented myths of idiology, fairies up in the sky, Shakti, Shiva or any other absurdities, it’s what we are that’s the problem.
Dictatorial ideology knew this and still does. Even President Toadstool understands the power of mass rallies over his Trumpanzees. Not much different from sunday mass really.

You can't ban a $1.2 trillion industry.

But we should tax it.

Really? You going to tax all the other non-profits out there as well? If not, how are you planning to differentiate which ones to tax and which ones to not tax?

 

[Cecilie1200]

Religion does what governments can’t, they teach civility.

So, the only two sources of civility are religion or the state?
A chilling set of alternatives.

Pretty sure ding said government was NOT a source of civility.

Can't imagine what you find "chilling" about the fact that civility comes from the moral groundings of a belief system.