So this guy from Chicago, shows up at a Florida Convenience store showing the clerk he has a gun. Clerk shows robber his gun. Yeah for 2nd amend.

[2aguy]

Shooting an unarmed kid 16 times is "doing your job". (Van Dyke actually tried to claim this in court. Probably made the jury hate him even more.)
Shooting a kid playing with a toy in the park is "Doing your job"?
Shooting a kid who has his hands up 8 times is doing your job?

Frankly, my problem with Obama's DOJ is that it didn't do enough. It didn't file federal charges against Zimmerman or Van Dyke or Wilson or Loehmann...



Right... so where does it say, "mistreat black people' was part of their job, exactly.

The problem is, racist cops are a liability... more so now that the settlements for misconduct have gone from 7 figures to 8 figures.

In 2018, the City of Chicago spent 118 MILLION settling claims of police misconduct. For that cost, we could have put 170 more cops on the street.

Millions of police interactions each year and you harp on the few....you doofus......

The kid with the toy had a toy that looked like a real gun, you lying piece of shit.....

Which kid had their hands up? You mean the Gentle Giant who violently assaulted the cop and who even witnesses said didn't have his hands up? You lying doofus.

 

[2aguy]

Oh, you mean like every time someone quotes data from Concealed Carry Killers or Violence Policy Centre... got it.
Any time anyone posts something you don't like, you post a torrent of BS cut and paste to try to bury whatever they say... got it.

I showed why the "Concealed Carry Killers," was crap, as well as the Violence Policy Center...

Like this....

Violence Policy Center

Donohue and Education Fund Briefs do present anecdotes involving carry permit holders who have killed after becoming angry over insignificant issues ranging from cutting someone off on a highway to texting in a movie theater to playing loud music at a gas station. Another amicus brief, by the Violence Policy Center (VPC), presents more anecdotes. The VPC also cites statistics from its database Concealed Carry Killers.

We haven't fact-checked the VPC database. But Clayton Cramer (coauthor of several law review articles with Kopel) did. Clayton E. Cramer, Violence Policy Center's Concealed Carry Killers: Less Than It Appears (2012).


Cramer found numerous instances of VPC incorrectly claiming that a perpetrator had a concealed carry permit, or VPC counting events that had nothing to do with the carry permit, such as a permit-holder committing suicide at home.

Or consider this example from the VPC brief:

In May 2014, Michael Bowman, who also possessed a valid concealed carry handgun permit, shot and killed police officer Kevin Jordan in Griffon, Georgia. Officer Jordan was working an off-duty security job in uniform at a Waffle House restaurant. Bowman was drunk when he and his girlfriend Officer Jordan attempted to arrest Bowman's girlfriend. Officer Jordan—a father of seven—was on the ground attempting to restrain Bowman's girlfriend when Bowman shot him multiple times in the back. Bowman was convicted of felony murder and sentenced to life in prison without parole.42

Footnote 42 cites to the VPC's database. The database in turn cites: Former soldier gets life without parole for murdering police officer, Atlanta Journal-Constitution, Feb. 17, 2017 (article does not mention a permit); Griffin Tragedy; Drunk and armed at 2 a.m., Atlanta Journal-Constitution, June 8, 2014 (we couldn't find this article in the newspaper's archive, or in Westlaw News, although both databases contain many articles on the crime); Funeral next Monday for slain Griffin police officer, Atlanta Journal-Constitution, June 2, 2014 (found at 2014 WLNR 14878704). This last article explains who had the concealed carry permit: officer Kevin Jordan's brother, Raymond Jordan.

Raymond Jordan was in the parking lot when the gunfire erupted and grabbed his own gun, [police officer Mike] Richardson said. A civilian, he had a permit to carry a gun and was at the restaurant to visit his brother, who often worked there on weekends, police said. Raymond Jordan was not charged Saturday in Bowman's shooting, and police offered no explanation.

So in this case, the man with the concealed carry permit was not the criminal; the man with the carry permit was the person who shot the criminal who was attacking the officer.

There definitely are cases of persons with concealed carry permits perpetrating crimes in public places, including homicide. However, the VPC database is not necessarily a reliable guide. The better approach is to look at comprehensive datasets, such a statewide revocation figures, described above.

Social science on the right to bear arms
===============


And this.....

Debunking the Myth of "Concealed-Carry Killers"

Beyond the immediately suspect nature of the Violence Policy Center’s claims, the database erroneously includes many deaths that are not attributable to the misuse of a concealed-carry permit.


The anti-gun group defines “non-self-defense incident” to include virtually any fatality involving a concealed-carry permit holder, including ones that do not remotely resemble the type of intentional homicide evoked by the Violence Policy Center’s strong claims about public safety.

For example, roughly 40% of the deaths (534 of 1,335) are suicides. While tragic, firearm suicides are not what a term like “concealed-carry killer” brings to mind.


Moreover, analysis of the remaining “non-self-defense” deaths also belies the group’s use of the term.

The Violence Policy Center includes many fatalities where the shooter’s concealed-carry permit was irrelevant because he or she did not carry a concealed weapon in public while perpetrating the crime.

For example, the database includes a Nov. 11, 2008, death where a permit holder fatally shot her husband in their own backyard, and a June 12, 2012, death where the permit holder fatally shot his wife while she slept in their own bedroom.

Had their respective states never issued a concealed-carry permit to a single person, these shooters still would have been in lawful possession of these firearms inside their own homes.

Also of dubious inclusion are at least 10 cases that involve someone other than the permit holder using the permit holder’s firearm, and a number of cases where the individual’s permit either should have been suspended or was actually suspended under state law at the time of the death.

Finally, despite the Violence Policy Center’s claim that it only analyzed non-self-defense shootings, in 72 of the 801 homicide deaths included in the database, the shooter’s claim of self-defense is still pending in court.
---

The Data Paints a Different Picture
As a result of the report, the Violence Policy Center’s legislative director stated that “concealed-carry killers continue to claim innocent lives at a shocking pace.”
The only shocking thing about the pace of crimes committed by concealed-carry permit holders is just how slow it is compared with the statistical expectation.
According to the data, America’s 18 million concealed-carry permit holders accounted for 801 firearm-related homicides over a 15-year span, which amounts to roughly 0.7% of all firearm-related homicides during that time.
That percentage drops even lower if any of the defendants in the 72 cases still pending in court are determined to have acted in lawful self-defense.
Since 2007, when the Violence Policy Center started tracking these concealed-carry permit holder deaths, there has been a 304% increase in the number of Americans with a concealed-carry permit.
At the same time, the national violent crime and homicide rates in 2018 were actually lower than they were in 2007, and substantially lower than their historical highs in the early 1990s, when far fewer Americans had concealed-carry permits.
---


Similarly, despite the anti-gun group’s claim that concealed-carry permit holders represent a severe danger to law enforcement officers, the data indicates that they are accountable for a disproportionately small number of law enforcement deaths.



The FBI recorded 608 law enforcement officers who were killed in “felonious acts” between 2007 and 2018. According to the Violence Policy Center, 18 concealed-carry permit holders killed 23 law enforcement officers during that time.
That accounts for roughly 3.7% of law enforcement officer felonious deaths, even though concealed-carry permit holders account for 5.5% of the population.
Just as with non-law enforcement deaths, many of the cases the Violence Policy Center includes as law enforcement officer deaths involve scenarios where the killer’s status as a permit holder played no role in the crime.
In fact, by our count, only 10 of the 24 law enforcement officer deaths between 2007 and the time of publication involved permit holders actually carrying concealable firearms in public places.
For example, the database includes the case of Ryan Schlesinger, who in November 2018 used a rifle from inside his own home to kill an officer in Tucson, Arizona, serving him with an arrest warrant.
The concealed-carry permit was not only completely irrelevant in that situation—one does not need a concealed-carry permit to lawfully possess a rifle inside one’s home, nor is a rifle a “concealed carry” weapon—but Schlesinger was prohibited under state law from possessing firearms.

 

[JoeB131]

Naw, man. You just repeat slogans your hear on MSNBC. It's fashionable to be a self-hater. Self hating is a societal ill that strongly affects a certain personality type.

You might consider joining the Kamala Harris "Root Causes", tour. Laugh, giggle and do nothing.

If nothing is getting done, why are you so upset?

No it actually wasn't but you don't know shit about it do you?

I know you do go on and on... but I don't care.

 

[JoeB131]

Millions of police interactions each year and you harp on the few....you doofus......

Just like I don't harp on millions of planes that land safely, when one crashes.

Almost good enough isn't good enough in some professions.

The kid with the toy had a toy that looked like a real gun, you lying piece of shit.....

But he was still a kid and it was still a toy.

Which kid had their hands up? You mean the Gentle Giant who violently assaulted the cop and who even witnesses said didn't have his hands up? You lying doofus.

14 Witnesses said he had his hands up... the DA decided to ignore them.

 

[Hollie]

If nothing is getting done, why are you so upset?



I know you do go on and on... but I don't care.

People should be upset with the failures and ineptitudes of the left. It's not a simple matter of nothing getting done but leftist policies that are intended to be destructive.

The Democrat party of child grooming, body mutilation, open borders, self-loathing. Hey what could go wrong? Everything.

 

[JoeB131]

People should be upset with the failures and ineptitudes of the left. It's not a simple matter of nothing getting done but leftist policies that are intended to be destructive.

Actually, Biden has already gotten all the jobs Trump lost back and then some... he's getting inflation under control, investing more in infrastructure.

Compared to the shit-show that 2020 was, we are living it up pretty good.

 

[Hollie]

Actually, Biden has already gotten all the jobs Trump lost back and then some... he's getting inflation under control, investing more in infrastructure.

Compared to the shit-show that 2020 was, we are living it up pretty good.

Actually, what nonsense. Biden has simply exploited the return to work from the lay-offs and business closings that were largely due to horrible policies his administration implemented.

There is hardly a worse series of failures and ineptitudes that could define the Biden politburo.

 

[JoeB131]

Actually, what nonsense. Biden has simply exploited the return to work from the lay-offs and business closings that were largely due to horrible policies his administration implemented.

Uh, the layoffs happened while Trump was in charge, and a lot of those companies were in no hurry to bring people back.

Trump is the first president since Hoover to post a net job loss.

 

[Vagabond63]

Please how many times have you just dismissed links I have provided because you don't like the source?

So that's a "no, I can't provide examples". OK.

 

[Vagabond63]

I showed why the "Concealed Carry Killers," was crap, as well as the Violence Policy Center...

Like this....

Violence Policy Center

Donohue and Education Fund Briefs do present anecdotes involving carry permit holders who have killed after becoming angry over insignificant issues ranging from cutting someone off on a highway to texting in a movie theater to playing loud music at a gas station. Another amicus brief, by the Violence Policy Center (VPC), presents more anecdotes. The VPC also cites statistics from its database Concealed Carry Killers.

We haven't fact-checked the VPC database. But Clayton Cramer (coauthor of several law review articles with Kopel) did. Clayton E. Cramer, Violence Policy Center's Concealed Carry Killers: Less Than It Appears (2012).


Cramer found numerous instances of VPC incorrectly claiming that a perpetrator had a concealed carry permit, or VPC counting events that had nothing to do with the carry permit, such as a permit-holder committing suicide at home.

Or consider this example from the VPC brief:


Footnote 42 cites to the VPC's database. The database in turn cites: Former soldier gets life without parole for murdering police officer, Atlanta Journal-Constitution, Feb. 17, 2017 (article does not mention a permit); Griffin Tragedy; Drunk and armed at 2 a.m., Atlanta Journal-Constitution, June 8, 2014 (we couldn't find this article in the newspaper's archive, or in Westlaw News, although both databases contain many articles on the crime); Funeral next Monday for slain Griffin police officer, Atlanta Journal-Constitution, June 2, 2014 (found at 2014 WLNR 14878704). This last article explains who had the concealed carry permit: officer Kevin Jordan's brother, Raymond Jordan.


So in this case, the man with the concealed carry permit was not the criminal; the man with the carry permit was the person who shot the criminal who was attacking the officer.

There definitely are cases of persons with concealed carry permits perpetrating crimes in public places, including homicide. However, the VPC database is not necessarily a reliable guide. The better approach is to look at comprehensive datasets, such a statewide revocation figures, described above.

Social science on the right to bear arms
===============


And this.....

Debunking the Myth of "Concealed-Carry Killers"

Beyond the immediately suspect nature of the Violence Policy Center’s claims, the database erroneously includes many deaths that are not attributable to the misuse of a concealed-carry permit.


The anti-gun group defines “non-self-defense incident” to include virtually any fatality involving a concealed-carry permit holder, including ones that do not remotely resemble the type of intentional homicide evoked by the Violence Policy Center’s strong claims about public safety.

For example, roughly 40% of the deaths (534 of 1,335) are suicides. While tragic, firearm suicides are not what a term like “concealed-carry killer” brings to mind.


Moreover, analysis of the remaining “non-self-defense” deaths also belies the group’s use of the term.

The Violence Policy Center includes many fatalities where the shooter’s concealed-carry permit was irrelevant because he or she did not carry a concealed weapon in public while perpetrating the crime.

For example, the database includes a Nov. 11, 2008, death where a permit holder fatally shot her husband in their own backyard, and a June 12, 2012, death where the permit holder fatally shot his wife while she slept in their own bedroom.

Had their respective states never issued a concealed-carry permit to a single person, these shooters still would have been in lawful possession of these firearms inside their own homes.

Also of dubious inclusion are at least 10 cases that involve someone other than the permit holder using the permit holder’s firearm, and a number of cases where the individual’s permit either should have been suspended or was actually suspended under state law at the time of the death.

Finally, despite the Violence Policy Center’s claim that it only analyzed non-self-defense shootings, in 72 of the 801 homicide deaths included in the database, the shooter’s claim of self-defense is still pending in court.
---

The Data Paints a Different Picture
As a result of the report, the Violence Policy Center’s legislative director stated that “concealed-carry killers continue to claim innocent lives at a shocking pace.”
The only shocking thing about the pace of crimes committed by concealed-carry permit holders is just how slow it is compared with the statistical expectation.
According to the data, America’s 18 million concealed-carry permit holders accounted for 801 firearm-related homicides over a 15-year span, which amounts to roughly 0.7% of all firearm-related homicides during that time.
That percentage drops even lower if any of the defendants in the 72 cases still pending in court are determined to have acted in lawful self-defense.
Since 2007, when the Violence Policy Center started tracking these concealed-carry permit holder deaths, there has been a 304% increase in the number of Americans with a concealed-carry permit.
At the same time, the national violent crime and homicide rates in 2018 were actually lower than they were in 2007, and substantially lower than their historical highs in the early 1990s, when far fewer Americans had concealed-carry permits.
---


Similarly, despite the anti-gun group’s claim that concealed-carry permit holders represent a severe danger to law enforcement officers, the data indicates that they are accountable for a disproportionately small number of law enforcement deaths.



The FBI recorded 608 law enforcement officers who were killed in “felonious acts” between 2007 and 2018. According to the Violence Policy Center, 18 concealed-carry permit holders killed 23 law enforcement officers during that time.
That accounts for roughly 3.7% of law enforcement officer felonious deaths, even though concealed-carry permit holders account for 5.5% of the population.
Just as with non-law enforcement deaths, many of the cases the Violence Policy Center includes as law enforcement officer deaths involve scenarios where the killer’s status as a permit holder played no role in the crime.
In fact, by our count, only 10 of the 24 law enforcement officer deaths between 2007 and the time of publication involved permit holders actually carrying concealable firearms in public places.
For example, the database includes the case of Ryan Schlesinger, who in November 2018 used a rifle from inside his own home to kill an officer in Tucson, Arizona, serving him with an arrest warrant.
The concealed-carry permit was not only completely irrelevant in that situation—one does not need a concealed-carry permit to lawfully possess a rifle inside one’s home, nor is a rifle a “concealed carry” weapon—but Schlesinger was prohibited under state law from possessing firearms.

...and as if to prove my point, another torrent of out of date cut and paste BS.

Whatever the "pros" and "cons" of the Violence policy centre, they at least try to document as many instances as they can, from their site,

"As a result, the examples in Concealed Carry Killers are taken primarily from news reports and from the reporting required in a few states. These examples represent an unknown fraction of similar incidents that routinely occur across the nation."

"More than just numbers, Concealed Carry Killers provides detailed accounts of lethal incidents involving concealed handgun permit holders. Whenever possible, this includes the names of the killers and victims, the legal status of the cases, and the circumstances of the incidents."

Overall, VPC is far more credible than the so called "studies" that are just glorified telephone polling of small sample populations extrapolated. At least in the VPC website, you can read about each incident and make up your own mind one way or the other.

 

[Vagabond63]

I can understand you're offended at sources that contradict your biases.

You're mistaken, you are the one who got offended when I demonstrated that the data in Nation master was out of date and painted an over simplistic picture, basically comparing apples to oranges as JoeB131 also stated.

 

[Hollie]

Uh, the layoffs happened while Trump was in charge, and a lot of those companies were in no hurry to bring people back.

Trump is the first president since Hoover to post a net job loss.

Uh, the layoffs happened because of the China virus.

The Biden leftists have brought nothing but disaster.

 

[Hollie]

You're mistaken, you are the one who got offended when I demonstrated that the data in Nation master was out of date and painted an over simplistic picture, basically comparing apples to oranges as JoeB131 also stated.

Yet, you failed to offer any countering data. See your daddy, Joe. He can't help you.

 

[Hollie]

Uh, the layoffs happened while Trump was in charge, and a lot of those companies were in no hurry to bring people back.

Trump is the first president since Hoover to post a net job loss.

Telling us what we already know, leftist paradises are more dangerous than ever.

The left's pro-crime policies and infatuation with criminals has turned leftist paradises into virtual law and order-free zones.

Democrats struggle to find footing on violent crime

Fed-up Democrats in San Francisco and Los Angeles, liberal-leaning California cities reeling from COVID-era spikes in homicides and gun violence, may punish their own party at the polls next week over its criminal justice policies.

www.reuters.com

The results are predictable, of course:

Since COVID, Democrat-Run States Losing Residents to Red Ones, Survey Finds

From 2020 to 2021, eight of the 10 states losing the most residents from April 2020 through June 2021 have Democratic leadership.

www.google.com

Since COVID-19 struck the U.S., Americans have moved from state to state in droves, as residents fled Democrat-run states, like California, to Republican ones, like Florida, surveys found.

In 2021, 27.1 million Americans reported living at a different residence than a year earlier, and 29.8 million reported a move in 2020, according to the U.S. Census Bureau.

Eight of the 10 states losing the most residents from April 2020 through June 2021 have Democratic leadership. California ranked second in numeric population decline, with over 260,000 residents reportedly moving from the state.

 

[Blues Man]

If nothing is getting done, why are you so upset?



I know you do go on and on... but I don't care.

No human shit stains like you don't care about anything but their own half assed, bullshit ignorant opinions.

 

[Blues Man]

So that's a "no, I can't provide examples". OK.

It was some other thread where I posted something from the CPRC and you dismissed it.

Frankly you're not worth the effort to look for it.

 

[2aguy]

...and as if to prove my point, another torrent of out of date cut and paste BS.

Whatever the "pros" and "cons" of the Violence policy centre, they at least try to document as many instances as they can, from their site,

"As a result, the examples in Concealed Carry Killers are taken primarily from news reports and from the reporting required in a few states. These examples represent an unknown fraction of similar incidents that routinely occur across the nation."

"More than just numbers, Concealed Carry Killers provides detailed accounts of lethal incidents involving concealed handgun permit holders. Whenever possible, this includes the names of the killers and victims, the legal status of the cases, and the circumstances of the incidents."

Overall, VPC is far more credible than the so called "studies" that are just glorified telephone polling of small sample populations extrapolated. At least in the VPC website, you can read about each incident and make up your own mind one way or the other.

News reports that favor the worst outcomes of gun ownership, since if it bleeds, it leads, and since only the most sensational stories really get into the news while the stories of the victim merely pointing the gun and the criminal runs away are never heard........ and 95% of the American media are left wing anti-gunners....so you have a rabidly anti-gun group, using rabidly anti-gun news sources...yeah....sell that crap to our biden voters....

And the part where they use incidents that don't involve the Concealed Carry status of the gun owner, or document shootings where the Concealed carrier didn't do the freaking shooting?

You are an idiot.

 

[2aguy]

...and as if to prove my point, another torrent of out of date cut and paste BS.

Whatever the "pros" and "cons" of the Violence policy centre, they at least try to document as many instances as they can, from their site,

"As a result, the examples in Concealed Carry Killers are taken primarily from news reports and from the reporting required in a few states. These examples represent an unknown fraction of similar incidents that routinely occur across the nation."

"More than just numbers, Concealed Carry Killers provides detailed accounts of lethal incidents involving concealed handgun permit holders. Whenever possible, this includes the names of the killers and victims, the legal status of the cases, and the circumstances of the incidents."

Overall, VPC is far more credible than the so called "studies" that are just glorified telephone polling of small sample populations extrapolated. At least in the VPC website, you can read about each incident and make up your own mind one way or the other.

You missed this post where it details the lies and ommissions of the Violence policy center....

Violence Policy Center

Donohue and Education Fund Briefs do present anecdotes involving carry permit holders who have killed after becoming angry over insignificant issues ranging from cutting someone off on a highway to texting in a movie theater to playing loud music at a gas station. Another amicus brief, by the Violence Policy Center (VPC), presents more anecdotes. The VPC also cites statistics from its database Concealed Carry Killers.

We haven't fact-checked the VPC database. But Clayton Cramer (coauthor of several law review articles with Kopel) did. Clayton E. Cramer, Violence Policy Center's Concealed Carry Killers: Less Than It Appears (2012).


Cramer found numerous instances of VPC incorrectly claiming that a perpetrator had a concealed carry permit, or VPC counting events that had nothing to do with the carry permit, such as a permit-holder committing suicide at home.

Or consider this example from the VPC brief:

In May 2014, Michael Bowman, who also possessed a valid concealed carry handgun permit, shot and killed police officer Kevin Jordan in Griffon, Georgia. Officer Jordan was working an off-duty security job in uniform at a Waffle House restaurant. Bowman was drunk when he and his girlfriend Officer Jordan attempted to arrest Bowman's girlfriend. Officer Jordan—a father of seven—was on the ground attempting to restrain Bowman's girlfriend when Bowman shot him multiple times in the back. Bowman was convicted of felony murder and sentenced to life in prison without parole.42

Footnote 42 cites to the VPC's database. The database in turn cites: Former soldier gets life without parole for murdering police officer, Atlanta Journal-Constitution, Feb. 17, 2017 (article does not mention a permit); Griffin Tragedy; Drunk and armed at 2 a.m., Atlanta Journal-Constitution, June 8, 2014 (we couldn't find this article in the newspaper's archive, or in Westlaw News, although both databases contain many articles on the crime); Funeral next Monday for slain Griffin police officer, Atlanta Journal-Constitution, June 2, 2014 (found at 2014 WLNR 14878704). This last article explains who had the concealed carry permit: officer Kevin Jordan's brother, Raymond Jordan.

Raymond Jordan was in the parking lot when the gunfire erupted and grabbed his own gun, [police officer Mike] Richardson said. A civilian, he had a permit to carry a gun and was at the restaurant to visit his brother, who often worked there on weekends, police said. Raymond Jordan was not charged Saturday in Bowman's shooting, and police offered no explanation.

So in this case, the man with the concealed carry permit was not the criminal; the man with the carry permit was the person who shot the criminal who was attacking the officer.

There definitely are cases of persons with concealed carry permits perpetrating crimes in public places, including homicide. However, the VPC database is not necessarily a reliable guide. The better approach is to look at comprehensive datasets, such a statewide revocation figures, described above.

Social science on the right to bear arms
===============


And this.....

Debunking the Myth of "Concealed-Carry Killers"

Beyond the immediately suspect nature of the Violence Policy Center’s claims, the database erroneously includes many deaths that are not attributable to the misuse of a concealed-carry permit.


The anti-gun group defines “non-self-defense incident” to include virtually any fatality involving a concealed-carry permit holder, including ones that do not remotely resemble the type of intentional homicide evoked by the Violence Policy Center’s strong claims about public safety.

For example, roughly 40% of the deaths (534 of 1,335) are suicides. While tragic, firearm suicides are not what a term like “concealed-carry killer” brings to mind.


Moreover, analysis of the remaining “non-self-defense” deaths also belies the group’s use of the term.

The Violence Policy Center includes many fatalities where the shooter’s concealed-carry permit was irrelevant because he or she did not carry a concealed weapon in public while perpetrating the crime.

For example, the database includes a Nov. 11, 2008, death where a permit holder fatally shot her husband in their own backyard, and a June 12, 2012, death where the permit holder fatally shot his wife while she slept in their own bedroom.

Had their respective states never issued a concealed-carry permit to a single person, these shooters still would have been in lawful possession of these firearms inside their own homes.

Also of dubious inclusion are at least 10 cases that involve someone other than the permit holder using the permit holder’s firearm, and a number of cases where the individual’s permit either should have been suspended or was actually suspended under state law at the time of the death.

Finally, despite the Violence Policy Center’s claim that it only analyzed non-self-defense shootings, in 72 of the 801 homicide deaths included in the database, the shooter’s claim of self-defense is still pending in court.
---

The Data Paints a Different Picture
As a result of the report, the Violence Policy Center’s legislative director stated that “concealed-carry killers continue to claim innocent lives at a shocking pace.”
The only shocking thing about the pace of crimes committed by concealed-carry permit holders is just how slow it is compared with the statistical expectation.
According to the data, America’s 18 million concealed-carry permit holders accounted for 801 firearm-related homicides over a 15-year span, which amounts to roughly 0.7% of all firearm-related homicides during that time.
That percentage drops even lower if any of the defendants in the 72 cases still pending in court are determined to have acted in lawful self-defense.
Since 2007, when the Violence Policy Center started tracking these concealed-carry permit holder deaths, there has been a 304% increase in the number of Americans with a concealed-carry permit.
At the same time, the national violent crime and homicide rates in 2018 were actually lower than they were in 2007, and substantially lower than their historical highs in the early 1990s, when far fewer Americans had concealed-carry permits.
---


Similarly, despite the anti-gun group’s claim that concealed-carry permit holders represent a severe danger to law enforcement officers, the data indicates that they are accountable for a disproportionately small number of law enforcement deaths.



The FBI recorded 608 law enforcement officers who were killed in “felonious acts” between 2007 and 2018. According to the Violence Policy Center, 18 concealed-carry permit holders killed 23 law enforcement officers during that time.
That accounts for roughly 3.7% of law enforcement officer felonious deaths, even though concealed-carry permit holders account for 5.5% of the population.
Just as with non-law enforcement deaths, many of the cases the Violence Policy Center includes as law enforcement officer deaths involve scenarios where the killer’s status as a permit holder played no role in the crime.
In fact, by our count, only 10 of the 24 law enforcement officer deaths between 2007 and the time of publication involved permit holders actually carrying concealable firearms in public places.
For example, the database includes the case of Ryan Schlesinger, who in November 2018 used a rifle from inside his own home to kill an officer in Tucson, Arizona, serving him with an arrest warrant.
The concealed-carry permit was not only completely irrelevant in that situation—one does not need a concealed-carry permit to lawfully possess a rifle inside one’s home, nor is a rifle a “concealed carry” weapon—but Schlesinger was prohibited under state law from possessing firearms.

That is the source you are using.....you are an idiot...

 

[Vagabond63]

You missed this post where it details the lies and ommissions of the Violence policy center....

Violence Policy Center

Donohue and Education Fund Briefs do present anecdotes involving carry permit holders who have killed after becoming angry over insignificant issues ranging from cutting someone off on a highway to texting in a movie theater to playing loud music at a gas station. Another amicus brief, by the Violence Policy Center (VPC), presents more anecdotes. The VPC also cites statistics from its database Concealed Carry Killers.

We haven't fact-checked the VPC database. But Clayton Cramer (coauthor of several law review articles with Kopel) did. Clayton E. Cramer, Violence Policy Center's Concealed Carry Killers: Less Than It Appears (2012).


Cramer found numerous instances of VPC incorrectly claiming that a perpetrator had a concealed carry permit, or VPC counting events that had nothing to do with the carry permit, such as a permit-holder committing suicide at home.

Or consider this example from the VPC brief:


Footnote 42 cites to the VPC's database. The database in turn cites: Former soldier gets life without parole for murdering police officer, Atlanta Journal-Constitution, Feb. 17, 2017 (article does not mention a permit); Griffin Tragedy; Drunk and armed at 2 a.m., Atlanta Journal-Constitution, June 8, 2014 (we couldn't find this article in the newspaper's archive, or in Westlaw News, although both databases contain many articles on the crime); Funeral next Monday for slain Griffin police officer, Atlanta Journal-Constitution, June 2, 2014 (found at 2014 WLNR 14878704). This last article explains who had the concealed carry permit: officer Kevin Jordan's brother, Raymond Jordan.


So in this case, the man with the concealed carry permit was not the criminal; the man with the carry permit was the person who shot the criminal who was attacking the officer.

There definitely are cases of persons with concealed carry permits perpetrating crimes in public places, including homicide. However, the VPC database is not necessarily a reliable guide. The better approach is to look at comprehensive datasets, such a statewide revocation figures, described above.

Social science on the right to bear arms
===============


And this.....

Debunking the Myth of "Concealed-Carry Killers"

Beyond the immediately suspect nature of the Violence Policy Center’s claims, the database erroneously includes many deaths that are not attributable to the misuse of a concealed-carry permit.


The anti-gun group defines “non-self-defense incident” to include virtually any fatality involving a concealed-carry permit holder, including ones that do not remotely resemble the type of intentional homicide evoked by the Violence Policy Center’s strong claims about public safety.

For example, roughly 40% of the deaths (534 of 1,335) are suicides. While tragic, firearm suicides are not what a term like “concealed-carry killer” brings to mind.


Moreover, analysis of the remaining “non-self-defense” deaths also belies the group’s use of the term.

The Violence Policy Center includes many fatalities where the shooter’s concealed-carry permit was irrelevant because he or she did not carry a concealed weapon in public while perpetrating the crime.

For example, the database includes a Nov. 11, 2008, death where a permit holder fatally shot her husband in their own backyard, and a June 12, 2012, death where the permit holder fatally shot his wife while she slept in their own bedroom.

Had their respective states never issued a concealed-carry permit to a single person, these shooters still would have been in lawful possession of these firearms inside their own homes.

Also of dubious inclusion are at least 10 cases that involve someone other than the permit holder using the permit holder’s firearm, and a number of cases where the individual’s permit either should have been suspended or was actually suspended under state law at the time of the death.

Finally, despite the Violence Policy Center’s claim that it only analyzed non-self-defense shootings, in 72 of the 801 homicide deaths included in the database, the shooter’s claim of self-defense is still pending in court.
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The Data Paints a Different Picture
As a result of the report, the Violence Policy Center’s legislative director stated that “concealed-carry killers continue to claim innocent lives at a shocking pace.”
The only shocking thing about the pace of crimes committed by concealed-carry permit holders is just how slow it is compared with the statistical expectation.
According to the data, America’s 18 million concealed-carry permit holders accounted for 801 firearm-related homicides over a 15-year span, which amounts to roughly 0.7% of all firearm-related homicides during that time.
That percentage drops even lower if any of the defendants in the 72 cases still pending in court are determined to have acted in lawful self-defense.
Since 2007, when the Violence Policy Center started tracking these concealed-carry permit holder deaths, there has been a 304% increase in the number of Americans with a concealed-carry permit.
At the same time, the national violent crime and homicide rates in 2018 were actually lower than they were in 2007, and substantially lower than their historical highs in the early 1990s, when far fewer Americans had concealed-carry permits.
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Similarly, despite the anti-gun group’s claim that concealed-carry permit holders represent a severe danger to law enforcement officers, the data indicates that they are accountable for a disproportionately small number of law enforcement deaths.



The FBI recorded 608 law enforcement officers who were killed in “felonious acts” between 2007 and 2018. According to the Violence Policy Center, 18 concealed-carry permit holders killed 23 law enforcement officers during that time.
That accounts for roughly 3.7% of law enforcement officer felonious deaths, even though concealed-carry permit holders account for 5.5% of the population.
Just as with non-law enforcement deaths, many of the cases the Violence Policy Center includes as law enforcement officer deaths involve scenarios where the killer’s status as a permit holder played no role in the crime.
In fact, by our count, only 10 of the 24 law enforcement officer deaths between 2007 and the time of publication involved permit holders actually carrying concealable firearms in public places.
For example, the database includes the case of Ryan Schlesinger, who in November 2018 used a rifle from inside his own home to kill an officer in Tucson, Arizona, serving him with an arrest warrant.
The concealed-carry permit was not only completely irrelevant in that situation—one does not need a concealed-carry permit to lawfully possess a rifle inside one’s home, nor is a rifle a “concealed carry” weapon—but Schlesinger was prohibited under state law from possessing firearms.

That is the source you are using.....you are an idiot...

Repeating your usual torrent of out of date cut and paste BS, doesn't stop it being out of date cut and paste BS. Furthermore, it's not a source I use, I merely wanted to demonstrate what happens when anyone mentions Concealed Carry Killers or the VPC, the inevitable torrent of pro-gun Right wing sources that you regurgitate. Thank you for making my point.

 

[Vagabond63]

95% of the American media are left wing anti-gunners....so you have a rabidly anti-gun group, using rabidly anti-gun news sources...

Prove it.