So you want better paying jobs?

[initforme]

The key is to find something in demand and overprice it big time. Then sit back like all ceos and smoke your cigars.

 

[Boss]

. Price does not determine demand or supply.

dear, if the price of bananas drops to 1 penny/lb the supply will drop since there is no profit at that price; if the price rises to $5/lb the supply will grow since there would be big profit at that price

You are so goofy you don't even know what you're arguing anymore. Now you are trying to argue market share and competition. If a capitalist sells bananas at less per pound than his competition he may gain more market share if demand remains the same. Price is determined by supply and demand. Profit margin has nothing to do with supply and demand. Most capitalists have a formula for profit margin and it doesn't change regardless of supply or demand.. it may change due to competition and market share.

If you sell bananas at 1 penny per pound and no one has a penny or no one wants bananas... you have NO demand and NO sales, thus NO profit. If you have only a limited amount of bananas and everyone wants them, the price you charge will be high.. if not, another capitalist will buy all you want to sell cheaply and resell them at a higher price in accordance with the demand. If bananas are plentiful and a capitalist wants to be greedy and sell them for 500x their market value, another capitalist will keep his price low and take the market share of customers. Supply and demand determine price, not the capitalist.

 

[EdwardBaiamonte]

You are so goofy you don't even know what you're arguing anymore

dear, its not my argument. Its standard supply demand graph for 100 years in Econ 101 textbooks, and , left and right do not disagree it is so basic. You are illiterate so trying to reinvent the wheel rather than get a basic education. Sorry

 

[EdwardBaiamonte]

Supply and demand determine price, not the capitalist.

100% stupid since every capitalist is free to supply and price as he wants to.

 

[Boss]

Supply and demand determine price, not the capitalist.

100% stupid since every capitalist is free to supply and price as he wants to.

This is not actually true but it is the basis for the myth perpetrated by the socialist left regarding "greedy" capitalists. It's a backward mentality with regard to the most fundamental aspect of free market capitalism, the law of supply and demand.

Let's take this one step at a time... A free market capitalist is someone who is operating in a free market way... competing with other free market capitalists. Like all capitalists, their 'objective' is profit. The first graph you showed me was demonstrating "price equilibrium" relevant to supply and demand. This is the point at which price-to-profit is most desirable to the capitalist in terms of his objective. Anything over or under is going to result in inefficient profit gain which, to a capitalist, means profit lost.

So you can see, the capitalist does not set the price at which his product will be most profitable. That is determined by supply and demand. In order for the capitalist to continue meeting his objectives he has to remain in the range of price equilibrium or his competition will overcome him. The problem for the capitalist is determining where the "sweet spot" is in price equilibrium. Demand may increase, supply may be more limited... these things constantly change. The free market capitalist is a slave to this ever-changing price point... he can't just set prices at whatever... doesn't work like that... never has.

 

[EdwardBaiamonte]

This is the point at which price-to-profit is most desirable to the capitalist in terms of his objective.

no dear profit is not one of the variables in the basic supply demand graphs. We don't need you to reinvent the wheel

 

[Boss]

This is the point at which price-to-profit is most desirable to the capitalist in terms of his objective.

no dear profit is not one of the variables in the basic supply demand graphs. We don't need you to reinvent the wheel

You keep talking nonsense like you're hearing me say something different than supply and demand driving price in a free market system. Is there a different argument happening in your head, and if so, I wish you would clue me in. I don't know what you are muttering about but free market capitalism, as taught in most Econ 101 classes, is first and foremost about law of supply and demand, free market competition, price equilibrium and price-to-profit ratios.

I've already demonstrated that Price has nothing to do with Profit. You can sell bananas at $100/lb. all day forever and never make a dime of profit because there is no demand. You can also sell them for 1 cent... but if you paid 1 cent for them, you can sell all the bananas you like at that price and never gain profit. You can also sell them at fair market value but if no one has money it doesn't matter... no sales, no profit. It may be that markets for bananas are competitive and price is largely determined by who wants the most market share. But all things being equal, the "price equilibrium" is the objective of any true free market capitalist. That is the point at which the price is suitable (and most efficiently profitable) to the supply and the demand.

 

[EdwardBaiamonte]

I've already demonstrated that Price has nothing to do with Profit..

100% stupid of course since at a certain price you can lose money, not cover your costs, and make no profit.

 

[Boss]

Right.. you"re 100% stupid.

 

[EdwardBaiamonte]

Right.. you"re 100% stupid.

Sorry but you are the one who said "price had nothing to do with profit"!!

"I've already demonstrated that Price has nothing to do with Profit".
100% stupid of course since at a certain price you can lose money, not cover your costs, and make no profit.

 

[Boss]

Right.. you"re 100% stupid.

Sorry but you are the one who said "price had nothing to do with profit"!!

"I've already demonstrated that Price has nothing to do with Profit".
100% stupid of course since at a certain price you can lose money, not cover your costs, and make no profit.

Are you reading me say anything to the contrary, idiot?

YOUR argument is that a capitalist can just change the demand or supply by changing the price! MY argument is that supply and demand DRIVE price. Profit has nothing to do with any of this. You are leaping around from one argument to another trying your best to find a way to argue with me and I've owned you in this argument. Just fucking stop it, you're sounding unhinged. I get that you have some kind of ax to grind with me over something else and this just seems to be an opportunity for you to get some digs in but you're being ridiculous.

In a free market system, market demand and capitalist supply determine a "fair market value" and optimal profits are realized at "price equilibrium" pursuant to supply and demand. Price and profit do not drive supply or demand. If you are misunderstanding something, point it out and stop being a turd-head moron. This conversation has just become plain silly... it's like you are hearing or making a completely different argument from me or something... it's really freaky man. You're scaring me, are you mentally unstable or something?

 

[EdwardBaiamonte]

Are you reading me say anything to the contrary, idiot?

bad english

 

[EdwardBaiamonte]

YOUR argument is that a capitalist can just change the demand or supply by changing the price

its not my argument its Econ 101 and has been for 100 years and not disputed by left or right. Sorry

 

[EdwardBaiamonte]

Price and profit do not drive supply or demand.

dear if the market price for bananas is 1 cent/lb the profit will be tiny and that will drive the supply down.
So price and profit can drive supply. Sorry

 

[Boss]

YOUR argument is that a capitalist can just change the demand or supply by changing the price

its not my argument its Econ 101 and has been for 100 years and not disputed by left or right. Sorry

When you say price determines supply or demand you are not making ANY argument found in Economics 101. That argument is disputed by anyone who is not illiterate of economics.

 

[EdwardBaiamonte]

When you say price determines supply or demand

dear econ 101 says there are 3 variables( price, supply, demand) and each influences the other in the equation. Sorry

 

[Boss]

When you say price determines supply or demand

dear econ 101 says there are 3 variables( price, supply, demand) and each influences the other in the equation. Sorry

How can price increase the supply of something?
How can it increase the demand?

If what you are saying were true, we'd never have to worry about supply or demand because they could both be manipulated with price. They can't. Not in a FREE MARKET system.

What you are talking about is price equilibrium. You are mistakenly thinking when a capitalist's price is higher than equilibrium it creates "less demand." I doesn't... it creates fewer buyers for that capitalist, it does not create less demand. Another capitalist competitor can (and will) fill that demand by having a price closer to the price equilibrium. The demand remains the same regardless of what the capitalist sets as price.

Demand is how much the market wants something. Supply is how much is available. Neither of these is changed or altered due to price. In a free market system, price is influenced by supply and demand, not the other way around. This is precisely why price caps and minimum wage increases do not work. It is a totally backward and illiterate understanding of how free market capitalism works.

 

[OohPooPahDoo]

We keep hearing about this "widening gap between rich and poor" which has been the nucleus of an ongoing argument for higher wages, living wages, increasing the minimum wage, more taxation on "the wealthy" or whatever. They come armed with graphs and charts... the statistics to show you the middle class is in decline... the wealthy continue to amass great fortunes while the poor struggle to survive. Our hearts bleed as we're lectured on how we need more government regulations, more agencies and programs, more forced wage hikes and mandates, more restrictions and regulations heaped on big business in order to force them to pay up!

The problem is, we're hearing this from morons who don't understand how free market capitalism works. Oh, not all of them are illiterate morons, some have read books by European socialist propagandists and think they have everything all figured out. They don't seem to understand socialism doesn't work in practice like it works on paper. Every significant sized Socialist nation has failed and most of them have failed hideously. The ideas of people like Marx and Mao are responsible for ten's of millions of deaths. It is clearly a failed ideology by every standard.

Let's first dispatch a few myths and misconceptions. Wealthy people tend to gain wealth faster than poor people because they have a propensity for wealth acquisition... it's how they became wealthy for the most part. So it is perfectly natural in a free market capitalist system for the wealthiest to gain wealth faster than everyone else. It's like having a marathon race where there are runners who are seasoned veteran marathoners, runners who are couch potatoes, and some who run for the fun of it.... Now, in an actual race, who would you expect to lead and eventually win? The couch potato? Of course not... the seasoned vets are constantly going to gain more ground than the couch potatoes... that's perfectly natural and expected. The solution to the problem is not to hobble the veterans so they don't run as fast... the better idea would be to motivate the couch potatoes... train them up... make them better able to compete... turn them into veteran runners.

So this is where the idea of increasing their wages comes... but it's not as simple as merely passing some legislation that corporations MUST pay people $X per hour... that does not work in free market capitalism. What happens is, everything is on a sliding scale, so people make more but things cost more... so very shortly, we are back to square one. So come on Boss... get to the point... how do we increase the rate of pay for the average American in the average job without disrupting free market capitalism or causing inflation?

In order to increase pay you have to increase the demand for labor. In order to do that, you have to create new jobs. Not just new service sector, minimum wage, government or part-time jobs... but real, good paying, legitimate jobs. The way to do that is to encourage expansion of business... this requires taking several steps... lower taxes on corporations... or eliminate corporate tax altogether. Offer tax incentives for repatriated wealth... we have over $20 trillion in US wealth abroad... not doing us a bit of good. Let's bring it home and put it to work creating new business and new jobs. Finally, our trade deals need to account for the disparity in cost of labor. We can't compete with countries who pay their workers $1 a day and a bowl of rice... unless that's the standard we want to live with ourselves. Our trade policies have to take this into consideration and we have to apply tougher tariffs on import goods so our American companies can again compete domestically.

For example, let's use a computer keyboard... If you go to the store today to buy one, you will likely pay around $20 for a standard keyboard which is probably made in Indonesia. Now... An American company, with American workers and paying American taxes, can't buy the materials and assemble said keyboard for $20, much less sell it for that and make a profit. A similar American-made keyboard would be probably $40 or more. So if you have the choice to buy the same keyboard for $20 or $40... which would you likely purchase? Most people aren't going to care about where it's made, money is the deciding factor. However... IF you applied a tariff on Indonesian keyboards of say, $10 each... then the price of the Indonesian keyboard is $30 and the US company has the opportunity to compete... they cut some corners use some competitive ingenuity and manage to whittle their price down to $35... now you have a choice between a cheaply-made Indonesian keyboard for $30 or one that is built to last by Americans for $35. Some will still pick the cheaper keyboard but some will go with the quality.

I like how you say that socialism works only in theory but not in practice and then go on to explain how free market capitalism works in theory....

Now my example is a little exaggerated, we'd never apply a 50% tariff on something... but the point is making imports more expensive so that American companies can compete again. When we change this dynamic, jobs will begin to generate as a result.. more jobs = more demand for labor = higher wages.

Uhh, yeah we do. Europeans meats and truffles have a 100% tariff.

This shows how little regard you have for the actual real world, preferring instead to just make shit up.

 

[EdwardBaiamonte]

It is a totally backward and illiterate understanding of how free market capitalism works.

how could it be illiterate if it has been in Econ 101 text books for 100 years?????? You are illiterate for not knowing this!

In any case better paying jobs come when new inventions are supplied by Republicans.

 

[EdwardBaiamonte]

How can price increase the supply of something?

Dear, in Econ 101 they teach that if the price of bananas drops to 1 cent the supply will decrease since farmers can make a profit at that price, and if the price rises to $100 the supply will go up because there would be a huge profit to be made at that price.