Soft Heads In Senate Gun Control Hearing

[nodoginnafight]

If you are a private seller, how could you be sure you are not selling your gun to a mentally imbalanced person? How could you be sure you are not selling your gun to an illegal immigrant? How could you be sure you are not selling your gun to a felon?

What solutions do you guys recommend to prevent such a sale from happening?

How about public access to the gun buyer's registration list which I proposed earlier?

I'm down with that.
But I also waqnt to take the hjandcuffs off of law enforcement in the investigation of illegal gun sales. They need to be able to connect the dots in order to identify the 1% of gun dealers who are responsible for about 95% of illegal gun sales.

 

[g5000]

If you are a private seller, how could you be sure you are not selling your gun to a mentally imbalanced person? How could you be sure you are not selling your gun to an illegal immigrant? How could you be sure you are not selling your gun to a felon?

What solutions do you guys recommend to prevent such a sale from happening?

How about public access to the gun buyer's registration list which I proposed earlier?

I'm down with that.
But I also waqnt to take the hjandcuffs off of law enforcement in the investigation of illegal gun sales. They need to be able to connect the dots in order to identify the 1% of gun dealers who are responsible for about 95% of illegal gun sales.

Requiring records of who sold what gun to whom would mean the government would have the ability to know what guns I have purchased.

I am opposed to that. It is none of the government's business what property I own, except for tax purposes. If you want to tax guns, make it a sales tax. The government has no business knowing what guns I own.

If the government wants to know where a murderer bought his gun, use the same investigation, interrogation, and negotiation tactics the police use to discover any abettor or partner in crime.

 

[nodoginnafight]

If you are a private seller, how could you be sure you are not selling your gun to a mentally imbalanced person? How could you be sure you are not selling your gun to an illegal immigrant? How could you be sure you are not selling your gun to a felon?

What solutions do you guys recommend to prevent such a sale from happening?

How about public access to the gun buyer's registration list which I proposed earlier?

I'm down with that.
But I also waqnt to take the hjandcuffs off of law enforcement in the investigation of illegal gun sales. They need to be able to connect the dots in order to identify the 1% of gun dealers who are responsible for about 95% of illegal gun sales.

Requiring records of who sold what gun to whom would mean the government would have the ability to know what guns I have purchased.

I am opposed to that. It is none of the government's business what property I own, except for tax purposes. If you want to tax guns, make it a sales tax. The government has no business knowing what guns I own.

If the government wants to know where a murderer bought his gun, use the same investigation, interrogation, and negotiation tactics the police use to discover any abettor or partner in crime.

I understand that point of view. But I disagree with it. I don't see any harm in law enforcement having a paper trail. The only downside I can see is the old "slippery slope" argument about what law enfocement may try to do with that information next.

And with very few exceptions, I'm not a big believer in that "slippery slope" stuff.

 

[g5000]

Requiring records of who sold what gun to whom would mean the government would have the ability to know what guns I have purchased.

I am opposed to that. It is none of the government's business what property I own, except for tax purposes. If you want to tax guns, make it a sales tax. The government has no business knowing what guns I own.

If the government wants to know where a murderer bought his gun, use the same investigation, interrogation, and negotiation tactics the police use to discover any abettor or partner in crime.

I understand that point of view. But I disagree with it. I don't see any harm in law enforcement having a paper trail. The only downside I can see is the old "slippery slope" argument about what law enfocement may try to do with that information next.

And with very few exceptions, I'm not a big believer in that "slippery slope" stuff.

I'm not a fan of slippery slope logical fallacies, either, but there is a reason we have a Fourth Amendment. Governments have a bad habit of finding the crimes they are looking for even when they aren't really there.

Just as an analogy, I'm sure crime busting would be a lot easier if we all had a Big Brother camera in every room and on every street corner, but that would come at a huge cost to our freedoms and liberties.

Just so with making a paper trail for every gun. I have no doubt it would make crime busting easier, but freedom is not painless. We should not make government intrusion into our lives easier.

 

[OKTexas]

If you are a private seller, how could you be sure you are not selling your gun to a mentally imbalanced person? How could you be sure you are not selling your gun to an illegal immigrant? How could you be sure you are not selling your gun to a felon?

What solutions do you guys recommend to prevent such a sale from happening?

How about public access to the gun buyer's registration list which I proposed earlier?

What is a gun buyers registration list? Who maintains it?

I would suggest public access to the NICS system so a private seller can run the same background check dealers do.

 

[nodoginnafight]

Requiring records of who sold what gun to whom would mean the government would have the ability to know what guns I have purchased.

I am opposed to that. It is none of the government's business what property I own, except for tax purposes. If you want to tax guns, make it a sales tax. The government has no business knowing what guns I own.

If the government wants to know where a murderer bought his gun, use the same investigation, interrogation, and negotiation tactics the police use to discover any abettor or partner in crime.

I understand that point of view. But I disagree with it. I don't see any harm in law enforcement having a paper trail. The only downside I can see is the old "slippery slope" argument about what law enfocement may try to do with that information next.

And with very few exceptions, I'm not a big believer in that "slippery slope" stuff.

I'm not a fan of slippery slope logical fallacies, either, but there is a reason we have a Fourth Amendment. Governments have a bad habit of finding the crimes they are looking for even when they aren't really there.

Just as an analogy, I'm sure crime busting would be a lot easier if we all had a Big Brother camera in every room and on every street corner, but that would come at a huge cost to our freedoms and liberties.

Just so with making a paper trail for every gun. I have no doubt it would make crime busting easier, but freedom is not painless. We should not make government intrusion into our lives easier.

I don't see a paper trail on gun sales as equal to a camera in every room (many streets already have them).

I've also seen charges dropped against criminals because the evidence against them was gathered improperly. Our system has earned a bit of credibility on that one.

The gun sale paper trail doesn't infringe upon anyone's rights. If that information is used improperly, the system affords avenues to redress that. Insisting that the solution is to "simply enforce existing laws" when you require that those laws be enforced "with one hand tied behind our back" is just hollow noise.

 

[g5000]

If you are a private seller, how could you be sure you are not selling your gun to a mentally imbalanced person? How could you be sure you are not selling your gun to an illegal immigrant? How could you be sure you are not selling your gun to a felon?

What solutions do you guys recommend to prevent such a sale from happening?

How about public access to the gun buyer's registration list which I proposed earlier?

What is a gun buyers registration list? Who maintains it?

I would suggest public access to the NICS system so a private seller can run the same background check dealers do.

A gun buyer registration is an idea I floated near the beginning of this topic, and have floated several times on this forum.

Basically, you register gun buyers and not guns. Just like you go through a vetting process to register to vote, you would go through a vetting process to register as a potential gun buyer. Just as voter registration prevent felons and non-citizens from voting, so would a gun buyer registration prevent felons and non-citizens and crazy people from buying a gun.

When you go to vote, the lady at the voting precinct makes sure your name is on the approved voters list. If you go to buy a gun, the seller would make sure your name is on the approved gun buyer's list.

It would be the government's responsibility to maintain an accurate list, just as it is the government's responsibility to maintain an accurate voter list.

If you are on the gun buyer list, you can buy whatever gun you like, and the purchase is confidential. The government does not know what you bought just like it does not know who you voted for.


And that brings us to the private seller situation. In order to ensure a private seller does not sell a gun to a maniac or a felon or an illegal alien, he must have access to the gun buyer registration.

 

[M14 Shooter]

If you are a private seller, how could you be sure you are not selling your gun to a mentally imbalanced person? How could you be sure you are not selling your gun to an illegal immigrant? How could you be sure you are not selling your gun to a felon?

What solutions do you guys recommend to prevent such a sale from happening?

How about public access to the gun buyer's registration list which I proposed earlier?

What is a gun buyers registration list? Who maintains it?

I would suggest public access to the NICS system so a private seller can run the same background check dealers do.

A gun buyer registration is an idea I floated near the beginning of this topic, and have floated several times on this forum.

Basically, you register gun buyers and not guns. Just like you go through a vetting process to register to vote, you would go through a vetting process to register as a potential gun buyer. Just as voter registration prevent felons and non-citizens from voting, so would a gun buyer registration prevent felons and non-citizens and crazy people from buying a When you go to vote, the lady at the voting precinct makes sure your name is on the approved voters list. If you go to buy a gun, the seller would make sure your name is on the approved gun buyer's list.

How does this differ from having a list of people who are ineligible to buy a gun, and checking that list when they try? You know - like what we have now?

 

[nodoginnafight]

If you are a private seller, how could you be sure you are not selling your gun to a mentally imbalanced person? How could you be sure you are not selling your gun to an illegal immigrant? How could you be sure you are not selling your gun to a felon?

What solutions do you guys recommend to prevent such a sale from happening?

How about public access to the gun buyer's registration list which I proposed earlier?

What is a gun buyers registration list? Who maintains it?

I would suggest public access to the NICS system so a private seller can run the same background check dealers do.

A gun buyer registration is an idea I floated near the beginning of this topic, and have floated several times on this forum.

Basically, you register gun buyers and not guns. Just like you go through a vetting process to register to vote, you would go through a vetting process to register as a potential gun buyer. Just as voter registration prevent felons and non-citizens from voting, so would a gun buyer registration prevent felons and non-citizens and crazy people from buying a gun.

When you go to vote, the lady at the voting precinct makes sure your name is on the approved voters list. If you go to buy a gun, the seller would make sure your name is on the approved gun buyer's list.

It would be the government's responsibility to maintain an accurate list, just as it is the government's responsibility to maintain an accurate voter list.

If you are on the gun buyer list, you can buy whatever gun you like, and the purchase is confidential. The government does not know what you bought just like it does not know who you voted for.


And that brings us to the private seller situation. In order to ensure a private seller does not sell a gun to a maniac or a felon or an illegal alien, he must have access to the gun buyer registration.

I think your idea is a good one. Obviously I favor taking it one step further and you do not. I can accept that.

 

[idb]

You could TRY to prove me wrong by offering something.
Your repeated failure to do so only bolsters my position that you, indeed, have nothing.

Why?
I assume that you're an honest and thoughtful person.
You've already made it clear that you can't be swayed in your opinions.
There's no point in making an offer.

I will say this though.
Public opinion is showing concern with gun violence and a wish for more regulation of access to guns.
If gun owners take your position and refuse to be involved, they will allow the discussions to be dominated by one side.

Since you are such a supporter of what the voter wants, becomes law, then I am sure that you are against the SCotUS over-turning California's voter passed ban on Gay marriages.

Careful, I never said whether I supported majority opinion or not.
But, the opponents of any regulation at all are on the wrong side of public opinion...that's just the way it is.
They need to argue their case, not pull up the drawbridge and hide behind the walls.

Incidentally, I think California should be able to have the marriage laws that they want...I see marriage as a legally bestowed right, not a human right.

 

[idb]

Yeaaaaahhhh.
The state cannot have a monopoly on force when the citizenry retains the right to arms.

When did the state become other than the citizenry?

There is a clear conceptual, historical, political, legal and constitutional discrimination between "the state" and "the people".
Not sure how you do not know this.

Paranoia.
The state gets its mandate from the citizenry.

 

[idb]

If you are a private seller, how could you be sure you are not selling your gun to a mentally imbalanced person? How could you be sure you are not selling your gun to an illegal immigrant? How could you be sure you are not selling your gun to a felon?

What solutions do you guys recommend to prevent such a sale from happening?

How about public access to the gun buyer's registration list which I proposed earlier?

By licensing gun owners.
You must produce a license to purchase a firearm.
A seller must sight a purchasers license.
Licenses have to be renewed every few years.
That way, it's the state's function to carry out the necessary checks on citizenship/sanity/feloniousness.

 

[Flopper]

The Left is going to keep pushing this so that they can get what they really what... For now at least..


100% background checks and gun registration.

92% of americans want background checks. (91% of gun owners)
you saying "the left" makes up 92% of the American population?

States already have background checks which is sufficient. There is no need for the federal govt to know what guns I have.

Well yes and no. Many states do not report people that are seriously mentally ill so they are not included in the background check. In addition, current checks are not universal. They do not cover private sales only sales from licensed dealers.

Most gun owners are not opposed to background checks. IMHO, it makes sense for all gun owners to support universal background checks. By keeping guns out of the hands of the crazies, we may be able to avoid some of the senseless killimgs in our schools and other places that feed the demand for stringent gun control. Unless something is done, the public will demand far more stringent gun control. Gun enthusiast need to realize that if something is not done, their worst fears about gun control may well come true.

 

[idb]

What is a gun buyers registration list? Who maintains it?

I would suggest public access to the NICS system so a private seller can run the same background check dealers do.

A gun buyer registration is an idea I floated near the beginning of this topic, and have floated several times on this forum.

Basically, you register gun buyers and not guns. Just like you go through a vetting process to register to vote, you would go through a vetting process to register as a potential gun buyer. Just as voter registration prevent felons and non-citizens from voting, so would a gun buyer registration prevent felons and non-citizens and crazy people from buying a When you go to vote, the lady at the voting precinct makes sure your name is on the approved voters list. If you go to buy a gun, the seller would make sure your name is on the approved gun buyer's list.

How does this differ from having a list of people who are ineligible to buy a gun, and checking that list when they try? You know - like what we have now?

Because it provides approval for people that wish to buy a firearm.
Just because someone hasn't come to the notice of some law enforcement or mental health authority doesn't mean they are a suitable gun owner.

 

[Dubya]

A hearing was held yesterday in the US Senate to discuss gun control. Assault weapons ban, background checks, etc.

I must say I have never seen a bigger collection of logical fallacies in a single toolbox as I saw in the one the Democrats brought to the fight.

It was a non-stop freak show by the gun controllers. From Senator Feinstein showing a clip of a modified rifle rapid firing, to sackcloth and ashes worn by people grieving over Sandy Hook.

At one point, closeted drag queen Lindsey Graham (WHAT!?!) asked one of the gun control wannabe's how many rifles had been used in all the murders that kept being cited as reasons to ban assault weapons.

The best the police chief could respond was, "Dead is dead."

Um. Yeah...but dead by a handgun does not get undead by an assault weapons ban, officer!

Graham pointed out that only 2.5 percent of homicides were by rifles, which as it turns out is half the number that were by bare hands.

Every time someone tried to introduce FACTS into the conversation, the gun controllers dragged out the dead bodies of the Sandy Hook children.

Dr. William Begg, who was one of the physicians present in the emergency room on the day of the deadly shooting, told families physicians and nurses tried their best to save their children and advocated on behalf of an assault weapons ban, stronger background check system, and an investment in research for mental health.

“People say that the overall number of assault weapon deaths is small but you know what? Please don’t tell that to the people of Tucson or Aurora or Columbine or Virginia Tech and don’t tell that to the people in Newtown,” Begg said as he choked up and people in the crowd clapped.

Argumentum ad passiones logical fallacy.

I'm sorry, folks, but the Sandy Hook killer did not shoot those kids because he had an AR-15. Those kids would be just as dead with one of Joe Biden's shotguns, and a lot messier. You want traumatic? Just look at a kid who has been shot with a shotgun.


Any "solution" to this problem that is built on false premises and logical fallacies is pre-destined to be an unmitigated failure.

This is theater for the rubes. Roll out the dead kids!

2.5 percent.

You aren't going to kill as many people with a shotgun and that's why mass murderers don't use shotguns.

Speaking of theater, do you think Sandy Hook is the end of these kinds of mass shooting? The stats on rifles have been historically low, but we could very easily have entered a time when these types of mass shootings become more common and they're not going to use shotguns.

 

[Flopper]

If you are a private seller, how could you be sure you are not selling your gun to a mentally imbalanced person? How could you be sure you are not selling your gun to an illegal immigrant? How could you be sure you are not selling your gun to a felon?

What solutions do you guys recommend to prevent such a sale from happening?

How about public access to the gun buyer's registration list which I proposed earlier?

By licensing gun owners.
You must produce a license to purchase a firearm.
A seller must sight a purchasers license.
Licenses have to be renewed every few years.
That way, it's the state's function to carry out the necessary checks on citizenship/sanity/feloniousness.

IMHO, something like this will happen eventually; it may be many years from now, but it will happen. Gun advocates will continue to fight any form of gun control and firearm manufactures will continue to produce more and more deadly weapons. This deadly combination will result in more massacres which will increase the demand for more stringent gun control.

 

[OKTexas]

If you are a private seller, how could you be sure you are not selling your gun to a mentally imbalanced person? How could you be sure you are not selling your gun to an illegal immigrant? How could you be sure you are not selling your gun to a felon?

What solutions do you guys recommend to prevent such a sale from happening?

How about public access to the gun buyer's registration list which I proposed earlier?

What is a gun buyers registration list? Who maintains it?

I would suggest public access to the NICS system so a private seller can run the same background check dealers do.

A gun buyer registration is an idea I floated near the beginning of this topic, and have floated several times on this forum.

Basically, you register gun buyers and not guns. Just like you go through a vetting process to register to vote, you would go through a vetting process to register as a potential gun buyer. Just as voter registration prevent felons and non-citizens from voting, so would a gun buyer registration prevent felons and non-citizens and crazy people from buying a gun.

When you go to vote, the lady at the voting precinct makes sure your name is on the approved voters list. If you go to buy a gun, the seller would make sure your name is on the approved gun buyer's list.

It would be the government's responsibility to maintain an accurate list, just as it is the government's responsibility to maintain an accurate voter list.

If you are on the gun buyer list, you can buy whatever gun you like, and the purchase is confidential. The government does not know what you bought just like it does not know who you voted for.


And that brings us to the private seller situation. In order to ensure a private seller does not sell a gun to a maniac or a felon or an illegal alien, he must have access to the gun buyer registration.

Sorry, can't see a logical reason to reinvent the wheel, NICS is already in place, would be much less expensive and easier just to give private sellers access.

 

[OKTexas]

If you are a private seller, how could you be sure you are not selling your gun to a mentally imbalanced person? How could you be sure you are not selling your gun to an illegal immigrant? How could you be sure you are not selling your gun to a felon?

What solutions do you guys recommend to prevent such a sale from happening?

How about public access to the gun buyer's registration list which I proposed earlier?

By licensing gun owners.
You must produce a license to purchase a firearm.
A seller must sight a purchasers license.
Licenses have to be renewed every few years.
That way, it's the state's function to carry out the necessary checks on citizenship/sanity/feloniousness.

Right, the answer is always more government, more bureaucrats and more money. Give ma a freaking break.

 

[M14 Shooter]

Careful, I never said whether I supported majority opinion or not.
But, the opponents of any regulation at all are on the wrong side of public opinion...that's just the way it is.
They need to argue their case, not pull up the drawbridge and hide behind the walls.

Never mind that the onus for "making a case" falls upon those who want to further limit the rights of the law abiding...

Argue their case for what?
Not implementing gun control laws that will do nothing to stop gun crime and only needlessly limit the laws of the law abiding?
Seems pretty self-evident to me.

 

[M14 Shooter]

If you are a private seller, how could you be sure you are not selling your gun to a mentally imbalanced person? How could you be sure you are not selling your gun to an illegal immigrant? How could you be sure you are not selling your gun to a felon?
What solutions do you guys recommend to prevent such a sale from happening?
How about public access to the gun buyer's registration list which I proposed earlier?

By licensing gun owners.

Requiring someone to obtain a license before they can exercise their rights - ANY of theiir rights -is a precondition to the exercise of that right ot inherent to same and therefore violates the constituton.