Striking fear in the hearts...

[hortysir]

The problem is praying in a public, official fashion at a public school event, by a state sponsored educator.

I would not like the principal of my kid's school praying to Allah and praising the holy Koran at a graduation ceremony, would you? I would complain my head off!

Thoughts?


.

I'm open enough to the 'free exercise thereof' that it would not bother me to hear a Muslim prayer or a Buddhist hum or a Jewish recitation.
I respect all religions. Hearing them pray won't scar my psyche or force my conversion to their religion.

There's another part to that whole "free exercise thereof", though, that some tend to forget.

And that is, "Congress shall make NO LAW" regarding that exercising.

When do we start paying attention to that little tidbit?

I'm sure you can handle it (as could I) but were talking kids here who are very prone to influence.

Once again, would you be comfortable if you found out your 8-year old's teacher promotes the Koran, and Allah, through prayer during class at your community's public school?

Would you just tell your kid to "deal with it" at your taxpayer funded school?

Me personally - most definitely not. You?


.

You like to throw the word "promote" around too much to skew any replies to your posts.

ALLOWING a Muslim to pray is not promoting.

 

[koshergrl]

No, it's not.

And I would never in a million years object or *turn in* a 4 year old kid for invoking Allah at a mock up commencement.

 

[daws101]

why does the op's title just scream propaganda or a line from a really bad movie?

 

[AVG-JOE]

What is it about prayer, specifically christian prayer, that so terrifies athiests and others without some other religious avocation? Why is it that even the whispered hint of christian murmurings sends these loonbats streaking off to litigation? What are they afraid of? Words? And yet, they continue to demand that their "faith" be honored and respected.

Atheist group, angry mom go ballistic over prayer at pretend preschool commencement

Here's the thing: this is a public school, and public schools (as a representative of the state & ultimately our gov't) should be as neutral as possible when it comes to religion. If we have state-sponsored school promoting Christianity at a commencement ceremony, where exactly do the Muslim children fit it? Or how about Jewish kids?

As a parent, would you like your public school district picking and choosing the religions it pushes on your child? What about if down the road Islam started picking up popularity, and teachers were regularly encouraging the children to pray to mecca at various intervals of the day?

We have a place for the promotion of a specific religion in school, and that is in the private sector.




.

They can do what this country has always done and add their own, when the kid says Jesus you teach your kid to add Allah or Yahweh or which ever one you want to add or even to have your kid stay silent if you want to teach them atheism.
It's called tolerance for others as a melting pot, where we all have freedom to be religious or not religious or anything in between.
One woman's intolerance to rule over the rest of us is not what this country is about.
But our Constitution does not say that you can't pray in public on any government property.

A preschool student led the brief prayer, which ended with the words “In Jesus’ name, Amen.” The student seems to have been following the instruction of a preschool teacher.

The last sentence is the kicker.

If the teacher is teaching Christianity in a public school, that's a problem. The article isn't clear on how much of this came from the teacher, so this debate is predicated on the big 'if'.

If the kid prayed to Jesus of his own accord, not knowing if the teacher would be pleased or appalled, there's no issue. If the kid was coached in the prayer and/or how to end it, there's a problem.

 

[Jimmy_Jam]

Why do extremists have to complicate everything so much?

Here's the problem. We have something called state sponsored religion, which is not allowed. So, quite simply, a public school cannot compel individuals to a particular religion, or even compel to have any faith at all. Simple.

We have something called freedom of religion, in which the state cannot prohibit the free exercise of one's faith or lack thereof. So, quite simply, a public school cannot prohibit an individual from observing their faith (to include prayer), as long as that individual is not using the public school for that express purpose, since that starts to move into the territory of the state compelling religion. Simple.

It's really not that complicated. It's extremist theists and atheists who have to blur the lines and inject emotion into a pretty simple fundamental right. In each situation where the theists or the atheists claim there was a violation of the 1st Amendment regarding the religion clauses, one only has to ask two questions: a) was the state compelling anybody toward a particular religion or b) was it simply an individual exercising their faith independent of anything compelled by the state.

Take the kid who was told by his school not to include religious material in his valedictorian speech but he did anyway. Clearly the state was not endorsing religion, and clearly the kid was taking it upon himself to express his faith. Everybody was in the clear when it comes to the Constitution. Win win for everybody. YAY!

You see, it really is possible to come to a consensus about this. It's not that hard.

 

[AVG-JOE]

I'm open enough to the 'free exercise thereof' that it would not bother me to hear a Muslim prayer or a Buddhist hum or a Jewish recitation.
I respect all religions. Hearing them pray won't scar my psyche or force my conversion to their religion.

There's another part to that whole "free exercise thereof", though, that some tend to forget.

And that is, "Congress shall make NO LAW" regarding that exercising.

When do we start paying attention to that little tidbit?

I'm sure you can handle it (as could I) but were talking kids here who are very prone to influence.

Once again, would you be comfortable if you found out your 8-year old's teacher promotes the Koran, and Allah, through prayer during class at your community's public school?

Would you just tell your kid to "deal with it" at your taxpayer funded school?

Me personally - most definitely not. You?


.

You like to throw the word "promote" around too much to skew any replies to your posts.

ALLOWING a Muslim to pray is not promoting.

Once again, are we talking about little Achmed asking for a blessing from Allah on Tuesday, and little Patrick praying to Mary on Thursday, and little Paulie invoking the name of Jesus on Friday, or is it a teacher coaching exclusive religious activities in a particular belief system?

A teacher teaching with a religious twist could easily cross the line in to 'promoting' one belief system over another.

 

[hoosier88]

Why do extremists have to complicate everything so much?

Here's the problem. We have something called state sponsored religion, which is not allowed. So, quite simply, a public school cannot compel individuals to a particular religion, or even compel to have any faith at all. Simple.

We have something called freedom of religion, in which the state cannot prohibit the free exercise of one's faith or lack thereof. So, quite simply, a public school cannot prohibit an individual from observing their faith (to include prayer), as long as that individual is not using the public school for that express purpose, since that starts to move into the territory of the state compelling religion. Simple.

It's really not that complicated. It's extremist theists and atheists who have to blur the lines and inject emotion into a pretty simple fundamental right. In each situation where the theists or the atheists claim there was a violation of the 1st Amendment regarding the religion clauses, one only has to ask two questions: a) was the state compelling anybody toward a particular religion or b) was it simply an individual exercising their faith independent of anything compelled by the state.

Take the kid who was told by his school not to include religious material in his valedictorian speech but he did anyway. Clearly the state was not endorsing religion, and clearly the kid was taking it upon himself to express his faith. Everybody was in the clear when it comes to the Constitution. Win win for everybody. YAY!

You see, it really is possible to come to a consensus about this. It's not that hard.

(My bold)

Nah, if any student/parent was sufficiently offended to pursue the matter, the repercussions for the ISD could be ugly. Mainly, the board of trustees failed to keep control of their own ceremony, @ their venue, surrounded by their faculty, security, etc.

& the outlook for the next graduation season, if the ISD does nothing, will be v. stormy. I'm looking forward to the resolution - if not now, then.

 

[AVG-JOE]

It was a little girl saying a prayer.

There are no prayer police in school, nor should there ever be. A preschool student opted to say a little prayer. What do you propose should be done? How does this show that religion is being "established" in the school?

Should the preschooler be locked up? Should she have been hustled off the stage? Bullwhipped?

WHAT DO YOU WANT TO HAPPEN to CHILDREN who opt to publicly pray at school?

Nothing. Ass-U-Me-ing it truly is at the option of the child.

 

[AVG-JOE]

I have to wonder why the woman, a self described Christian, would complain to the Freedom from Religion Foundation and not the ACLU.

Because the ACLU would tell her to fuck herself.

You dumb fucks.

This is a little girl at a mock-up, fake little graduation ceremony for preschoolers. She said a little prayer. Boo fucking hoo, get over it. She does not represent the government, and in no way does her little prayer force anyone else to drop to their knees and worship God Almighty.

Let's just go to war already. It's time to clean you yahoos off the face of the planet.

"She's a good girl, loves her mamma... Loves Jesus, and America too."

[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1lWJXDG2i0A]Tom Petty - Free Fallin' - YouTube[/ame]

 

[daws101]

It was a little girl saying a prayer.

There are no prayer police in school, nor should there ever be. A preschool student opted to say a little prayer. What do you propose should be done? How does this show that religion is being "established" in the school?

Should the preschooler be locked up? Should she have been hustled off the stage? Bullwhipped?

WHAT DO YOU WANT TO HAPPEN to CHILDREN who opt to publicly pray at school?

Nothing. Ass-U-Me-ing it truly is at the option of the child.

100 hundred bucks says she was coached.

 

[oldfart]

What is it about prayer, specifically christian prayer, that so terrifies athiests and others without some other religious avocation? ...What are they afraid of? Words? And yet, they continue to demand that their "faith" be honored and respected.

I'll be charitable and reply as if your question is made out of ignorance rather than malice. We of other faith traditions are often offended by "Christian" prayer and believe in the Establishment Clause. I realize that most Christians only believe in the Constitution when it favors them, and in this issue they favor the establishment of their religion and therefore oppose the Constitution. Perhaps if the freedom FROM established religion were severed from the rights of free speech, free assembly, and right to petition and moved to the Second Amendment from the First, they would regard it better.

I live on the Redneck Riviera. In my small city is a synagogue, a Hindu temple, two Buddhist places of worship, and several other small meeting places of smaller non-Christian religious faiths. To the best of my knowledge, none of them has ever attempted to be included in the "non-sectarian" religious customs of public life. When the imam of the local mosque is invited to give the invocation at the city hall meeting, we might have something to discuss. Until then, your insensitivity and ignorance of other faiths blinds you.

 

[hortysir]

I'm sure you can handle it (as could I) but were talking kids here who are very prone to influence.

Once again, would you be comfortable if you found out your 8-year old's teacher promotes the Koran, and Allah, through prayer during class at your community's public school?

Would you just tell your kid to "deal with it" at your taxpayer funded school?

Me personally - most definitely not. You?


.

You like to throw the word "promote" around too much to skew any replies to your posts.

ALLOWING a Muslim to pray is not promoting.

Once again, are we talking about little Achmed asking for a blessing from Allah on Tuesday, and little Patrick praying to Mary on Thursday, and little Paulie invoking the name of Jesus on Friday, or is it a teacher coaching exclusive religious activities in a particular belief system?

A teacher teaching with a religious twist could easily cross the line in to 'promoting' one belief system over another.

Agreed

 

[hortysir]

BTW?

NOT a 'private school'

Amelia Elementary School Profile | Beaumont, Texas (TX)

 

[C_Clayton_Jones]

You dumb fucks.

This is a little girl at a mock-up, fake little graduation ceremony for preschoolers. She said a little prayer. Boo fucking hoo, get over it. She does not represent the government, and in no way does her little prayer force anyone else to drop to their knees and worship God Almighty.

Let's just go to war already. It's time to clean you yahoos off the face of the planet.

That’s not very ‘Christian.’

And only the courts can determine if an Establishment Clause violation occurred nor not.

 

[C_Clayton_Jones]

Why do extremists have to complicate everything so much?

Here's the problem. We have something called state sponsored religion, which is not allowed. So, quite simply, a public school cannot compel individuals to a particular religion, or even compel to have any faith at all. Simple.

We have something called freedom of religion, in which the state cannot prohibit the free exercise of one's faith or lack thereof. So, quite simply, a public school cannot prohibit an individual from observing their faith (to include prayer), as long as that individual is not using the public school for that express purpose, since that starts to move into the territory of the state compelling religion. Simple.

It's really not that complicated. It's extremist theists and atheists who have to blur the lines and inject emotion into a pretty simple fundamental right. In each situation where the theists or the atheists claim there was a violation of the 1st Amendment regarding the religion clauses, one only has to ask two questions: a) was the state compelling anybody toward a particular religion or b) was it simply an individual exercising their faith independent of anything compelled by the state.

Take the kid who was told by his school not to include religious material in his valedictorian speech but he did anyway. Clearly the state was not endorsing religion, and clearly the kid was taking it upon himself to express his faith. Everybody was in the clear when it comes to the Constitution. Win win for everybody. YAY!

You see, it really is possible to come to a consensus about this. It's not that hard.

Correct.

And if such a student should be subject to disciplinary measures, it’s because he violated school policy, not because he’s being subjected to some sort of ‘religious persecution,’ as schools have the right to control the content of speech made in an official capacity, such as a valedictorian speech. Morse v. Fredrick (2007).

 

[koshergrl]

One person complained. One. This is what's known as "tyranny of the minority".

 

[gallantwarrior]

What is it about prayer, specifically christian prayer, that so terrifies athiests and others without some other religious avocation? ...What are they afraid of? Words? And yet, they continue to demand that their "faith" be honored and respected.

I'll be charitable and reply as if your question is made out of ignorance rather than malice. We of other faith traditions are often offended by "Christian" prayer and believe in the Establishment Clause. I realize that most Christians only believe in the Constitution when it favors them, and in this issue they favor the establishment of their religion and therefore oppose the Constitution. Perhaps if the freedom FROM established religion were severed from the rights of free speech, free assembly, and right to petition and moved to the Second Amendment from the First, they would regard it better.

I live on the Redneck Riviera. In my small city is a synagogue, a Hindu temple, two Buddhist places of worship, and several other small meeting places of smaller non-Christian religious faiths. To the best of my knowledge, none of them has ever attempted to be included in the "non-sectarian" religious customs of public life. When the imam of the local mosque is invited to give the invocation at the city hall meeting, we might have something to discuss. Until then, your insensitivity and ignorance of other faiths blinds you.

Speaking of ignorant...
If you had paid attention, you might have noted that I was not critical of other faiths. I specifically addressed those who profess no faith or no declared religious preference. I see very little about people having a professed religious conviction making some big deal about invocations, Christian or otherwise, at public events.

 

[editec]

[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OXhJG7S9tjw]The War Prayer -- by Mark Twain - YouTube[/ame]



[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k1g8WCA7mJk]The Doors - You Cannot Petition The Lord With Prayer - YouTube[/ame]

 

[KevinWestern]

One person complained. One. This is what's known as "tyranny of the minority".

It doesn't matter if it's the 1% or the 99% complaining, it's just a discussion on whether or not official acts of prayer should be permitted in a public school.

Now, if it's some little girl (unprovoked) praying in a sort of impromptu way, that's not a big deal. Whatever, it's a little kid.

But if the prayer was provoked by an adult, or if an adult educator was leading the prayer at the event, then I think things warrant some discussion.


.

 

[hortysir]

You dumb fucks.

This is a little girl at a mock-up, fake little graduation ceremony for preschoolers. She said a little prayer. Boo fucking hoo, get over it. She does not represent the government, and in no way does her little prayer force anyone else to drop to their knees and worship God Almighty.

Let's just go to war already. It's time to clean you yahoos off the face of the planet.

That’s not very ‘Christian.’

And only the courts can determine if an Establishment Clause violation occurred nor not.

Exactly the point I just made in another thread