Taxation is Theft

[LordBrownTrout]

Taxation isn't theft. Excessive taxation...like we are seeing now, and uncontrolled spending are bringing the country to its knees.

 

[Silhouette]

Taxation isn't theft. Excessive taxation...like we are seeing now, and uncontrolled spending are bringing the country to its knees.

Well, agreed. Sort of.

I enjoy driving on roads, using bridges over rivers and swamps. I like the police force that comes when someone is trying to break into a house. I had a chimney fire put out not long ago that could've taken my whole house down if not for the public-funded fire department in our town. The national guard is pretty cool when a national disaster strikes. The corp of engineers are great when reinforcing levees. Poor kids having schools, supplies and books provided for them when they are dirt poor means they'll grow up educated and 10 times less likely to want to rob me out of ignorance and want or winding up in prison costing even more money.

Would be super nice to have a universal healthcare system funded by sales taxes on the crap that makes everyone sick to begin with.

Somehow we need to make this country business friendly. That last paragraph is a huge step in that direction. All we need to do is look to the north and see how Canada is doing it. They're enjoying both capitalism and a better standard of living even with more socialized programs and mandates. Seems like they're doing something right.

Maybe we should just sit down like kindergarteners and put a piece of tracing paper over the picture that is Canadian-success and just trace around the lines?

 

[LordBrownTrout]

Taxation isn't theft. Excessive taxation...like we are seeing now, and uncontrolled spending are bringing the country to its knees.

Well, agreed. Sort of.

I enjoy driving on roads, using bridges over rivers and swamps. I like the police force that comes when someone is trying to break into a house. I had a chimney fire put out not long ago that could've taken my whole house down if not for the public-funded fire department in our town. The national guard is pretty cool when a national disaster strikes. The corp of engineers are great when reinforcing levees. Poor kids having schools, supplies and books provided for them when they are dirt poor means they'll grow up educated and 10 times less likely to want to rob me out of ignorance and want or winding up in prison costing even more money.

Would be super nice to have a universal healthcare system funded by sales taxes on the crap that makes everyone sick to begin with.

Somehow we need to make this country business friendly. That last paragraph is a huge step in that direction. All we need to do is look to the north and see how Canada is doing it. They're enjoying both capitalism and a better standard of living even with more socialized programs and mandates. Seems like they're doing something right.

Maybe we should just sit down like kindergarteners and put a piece of tracing paper over the picture that is Canadian-success and just trace around the lines?

State and local levels are where govt is most productive ie police, fire, ems etc. Its the federal level that is the disaster. That exactly why I do not trust them in their social engineering and never ending wars.

 

[JakeStarkey]

Taxation isn't theft. Excessive taxation...like we are seeing now, and uncontrolled spending are bringing the country to its knees.

I agree that taxation is not theft.

Income taxation is at a 50 year low, so the comment about excessive taxation does not hold up.

Spending, yes, is the real problem. Sil's comment about sales taxes on unhealthy food for a national health care system is dead on.

LBT, social engineering can work (the US military and forced integration and mandatory behavior on the bases for personnel and civilians had a very positive effect)

Yes, the overseas interventions have to be severely curtailed.

 

[kaz]

How naive to say "absolute" or no governments are only choices

Exactly, which is why I asked you why those are the only choices you recognize.

No, you are saying those are the only choices, and I am calling you out for saying it.

Your choice is irrational and unworkable, and certainly your thinking is neither republican nor constitutional.

I am saying I'm for limited government, not no government. And you think I'm also saying government can either be authoritarian leftist or anarchist? I don't believe my own view even exists as a choice? You are seriously an idiot Jake.

 

[The2ndAmendment]

When someone's paycheck is perpetually devalued to simply pay the interest on a debt that they did not incur, it is theft.

Don't pay your local taxes? Guys with GUNS come and evict you.
Don't pay your state/federal taxes? Guys with GUNS will seize your assets to pay for them.


To a moderate extent --- taxation is a right, but like all things, when taken to an extreme, it's intolerable.

 

[LiberalMedia]

Taxation isn't theft. Excessive taxation...like we are seeing now, and uncontrolled spending are bringing the country to its knees.

Define excessive taxation, and who is currently being targeted by it. Do you think that corporations and millionaires, for example, are paying too much in taxes? Do you think that we're getting taxed in too many different areas--or are you fine with a multitude of taxes, as long as the rates are kept relatively low?

 

[JakeStarkey]

Exactly, which is why I asked you why those are the only choices you recognize.

No, you are saying those are the only choices, and I am calling you out for saying it.

Your choice is irrational and unworkable, and certainly your thinking is neither republican nor constitutional.

I am saying I'm for limited government, not no government. And you think I'm also saying government can either be authoritarian leftist or anarchist? I don't believe my own view even exists as a choice? You are seriously an idiot Jake.

Then you are changing the dynamics of what you wrote before: you said either or, not me. Thank you for admitting your worded it poorly. Yes, the idiocy is yours, and you can't wiggle out from your poor word choice.

How limited to do you believe government should be, kaz?

And thank you for no longer acting loopy.

 

[JakeStarkey]

I am posting the below again because it is being dodged by the far righties and glibertarians.

I agree that taxation is not theft.

Income taxation is at a 50 year low, so the comment about excessive taxation does not hold up.

Spending, yes, is the real problem. Sil's comment about sales taxes on unhealthy food for a national health care system is dead on.

LBT, social engineering can work (the US military and forced integration and mandatory behavior on the bases for personnel and civilians had a very positive effect)

Yes, the overseas interventions have to be severely curtailed.

 

[LiberalMedia]

When someone's paycheck is perpetually devalued to simply pay the interest on a debt that they did not incur, it is theft.

All adult Americans are consenting parties to contracts entered into by the United States government. If you no longer consent to paying your fair share of the country's debt load, then leave. That was the mentality the Founding Fathers had, and while they are patriarchal scum, this mindset was completely correct.

Don't pay your state/federal taxes? Guys with GUNS will seize your assets to pay for them.

I've just gone through several rounds of asking kaz to prove this same allegation. I guess it's your tyrn now. Show me ONE instance of federal agents wielding firearms while collecting federal or state income taxes, or I will be forced to assume that you're as full of shit as he is.

To a moderate extent --- taxation is a right, but like all things, when taken to an extreme, it's intolerable.

Define the boundaries of moderate taxation and extreme taxation. If you'd prefer to label certain taxes or tax rates existing in this country as being either moderate or extreme, that's fine too, but you're being overly vague here. This is a pervasive theme among all Internet libertarians.

Additionally, you say that "taxation is a right". Is this a typo for "taxation is right", or did you mean that the gyvyrnmynt has a ryght to tax its cytyzyns? Or perhaps, that cytyzyns have a ryght to impose taxation upon themsylves via referendum or some other means?

 

[LiberalMedia]

I saw this concept briefly mentioned in another thread. I think it deserves its own discussion.

For those of you who believe that taxation is theft:

1. Why is taxation theft?

2. What is the better alternative to funding government operations?

Taxes are proposed in and approved by legislative bodies, the members of which are elected by and accountable to their constituents. You either voted for the lygyslytyrs who created/raised various taxes, or you have failed to lobby the majority of the populace in your area to support candidates, policies, or referendums that would result in the reduction or abolition of taxation. By continuing to live in an area that levies taxes--be they locally-determined property taxes, statewide sales taxes, or the federal income tax--you are consenting to paying whatever taxes your elected representatives, or their agents in various revenue departments, determine that you owe.

"B-b-but, LM," you are undoubtedly saying, "My representatives aren't accountable to me, so the entire premise of your explanation of how taxation isn't theft is flawed!"

Not so, conservatards. You see, every elected representative in this country IS accountable to his or hyr constituents as a consequence of them being subject to election in the fyrst place--and in some instances, also subject to recall. Whether or not you and your fellow butthurt Wrongpublican voters actually do hold your representatives accountable for their actions is a circumstance irrelevant to the static, unchanging fact that anyone serving as an elected representatives is, by nature of their position, accountable to We the Pyyple.

So when you libertardians whine about "how far this country has fallen" and ask why "them thar taxes hafta be so derned high," remember that you did this. Every bit of it. Your actions (or more accurately for conservatards, your inactions) paved the way for the wyrld we live in today. The next time you're about to decry the American dream as being dead, stop yourself and remember: Don't call it a grave, it's the future you chose.

Taxation is theft because people are forced to pay at the point of a gun.

Show me evidence that this has ever been the case. Show me state or federal agents using guns during their collection of income taxes. There are at least three pyyple in this thread who maintain that this happens, and yet none of you have produced even a shred of evidence to support this wild accusation.

As to funding government, what makes you think I want to fund it?

My apologies; I assumed that you were a rational, thynkyng lybyryl lyke mysylf. If you are an anarchist who wants no gyvyrnmynt, explain why this is the better option, in terms of our discussion on the issue of taxation. Or do you simply want the gyvyrnmyntto be run on an all-volunteer basis, or through some other means? Explain your comments more fully.

 

[LiberalMedia]

Taxes are the collective contributions of all members of society for the maintainence and protection of that society and it's members - however in degenerating socialist societies the collective contributions are not neccessarily used for the preservation or maintainence of the society or for the protection of its members, but rather for the advancement of the ruling classes and continued subjugation of the productive working class.

This is most certainly the case in Modern Day America as Socialists , who are really little more than "useful idiots" continue to advance the causes of the ruling class elite.

Using no less than 200 wyrds, and citing no less than two sources (no more than one of which can be from the Internet), explain in detail how taxes are currently being used in the United States "for the advancement of the ruling classes and continued subjugation of the productive working class."

Are two hundred words really necessary?

Members of congress are paid 174,000 dollars per year. Plus expenses. To work about one third of the year. And get full retirement for life after simply taking the oath of office.

I think I have saved a hundred plus words here.

While this was not your assignment, I do appreciate the effort you have put into completing it. However, your "arguments" were entirely non-sequitur as they do not address the prompt, which was: Explain in detail how taxes are currently being used in the United States "for the advancement of the ruling classes and continued subjugation of the productive working class."

Mymbyrs of Cyngryss being paid ridiculous sums of money, while an outrage, does not in and of itself advance the ruling class, nor does it subjugate the working class.

 

[ChrisL]

Using no less than 200 wyrds, and citing no less than two sources (no more than one of which can be from the Internet), explain in detail how taxes are currently being used in the United States "for the advancement of the ruling classes and continued subjugation of the productive working class."

Are two hundred words really necessary?

Members of congress are paid 174,000 dollars per year. Plus expenses. To work about one third of the year. And get full retirement for life after simply taking the oath of office.

I think I have saved a hundred plus words here.

While this was not your assignment, I do appreciate the effort you have put into completing it. However, your "arguments" were entirely non-sequitur as they do not address the prompt, which was: Explain in detail how taxes are currently being used in the United States "for the advancement of the ruling classes and continued subjugation of the productive working class."

Mymbyrs of Cyngryss being paid ridiculous sums of money, while an outrage, does not in and of itself advance the ruling class, nor does it subjugate the working class.

The only thing taxes advance is government growth. Anyone who thinks the government is actually interested in "helping the poor," needs help IMO.

 

[LordBrownTrout]

Taxation isn't theft. Excessive taxation...like we are seeing now, and uncontrolled spending are bringing the country to its knees.

Define excessive taxation, and who is currently being targeted by it. Do you think that corporations and millionaires, for example, are paying too much in taxes? Do you think that we're getting taxed in too many different areas--or are you fine with a multitude of taxes, as long as the rates are kept relatively low?

Excessive taxation currently extends to everyone including corporations, small business etc. Of course we're being taxed in many areas and no, I'd prefer to drop the progressive marginal tax structure that's currently being used.

 

[ChrisL]

Taxation isn't theft. Excessive taxation...like we are seeing now, and uncontrolled spending are bringing the country to its knees.

Define excessive taxation, and who is currently being targeted by it. Do you think that corporations and millionaires, for example, are paying too much in taxes? Do you think that we're getting taxed in too many different areas--or are you fine with a multitude of taxes, as long as the rates are kept relatively low?

Excessive taxation currently extends to everyone including corporations, small business etc. Of course we're being taxed in many areas and no, I'd prefer to drop the progressive marginal tax structure that's currently being used.

Don't forget about those little bastards opening lemonade stands without paying taxes to the government!

Lemonade-Stand Crackdown Continues: Cops Make Girls Cry From Georgia to Wisconsin - Hit & Run : Reason.com

 

[GreenBean]

Using no less than 200 wyrds, and citing no less than two sources (no more than one of which can be from the Internet), explain in detail how taxes are currently being used in the United States "for the advancement of the ruling classes and continued subjugation of the productive working class."

Are two hundred words really necessary?

Members of congress are paid 174,000 dollars per year. Plus expenses. To work about one third of the year. And get full retirement for life after simply taking the oath of office.

I think I have saved a hundred plus words here.

While this was not your assignment, I do appreciate the effort you have put into completing it. However, your "arguments" were entirely non-sequitur as they do not address the prompt, which was: Explain in detail how taxes are currently being used in the United States "for the advancement of the ruling classes and continued subjugation of the productive working class."

Mymbyrs of Cyngryss being paid ridiculous sums of money, while an outrage, does not in and of itself advance the ruling class, nor does it subjugate the working class.

advancement of the ruling classes and continued subjugation of the productive working class

One Word - ENTITLEMENTS -

From that one word a myriad of schemes and enslavement issues arise - up to and imcluding Cloward-Piven - The current engineered Border crisis .........

 

[ChrisL]

Here is how I see the United States federal government in a nutshell.

Feed me!!!

 

[JakeStarkey]

Note: the far right and glibertarians are ignoring that income taxation from local to federal levels are at 50 year lows.

There is no excessive taxation.

There is certainly excessive spending, particularly in DOD.

 

[itfitzme]

When someone's paycheck is perpetually devalued to simply pay the interest on a debt that they did not incur, it is theft.

Don't pay your local taxes? Guys with GUNS come and evict you.
Don't pay your state/federal taxes? Guys with GUNS will seize your assets to pay for them.


To a moderate extent --- taxation is a right, but like all things, when taken to an extreme, it's intolerable.

You are confusing price and cost for value. Neither nominal gross income or nominal disposable income are a measure of value. Real net income gets far closer to the value of wages.

This persistent belief that lower tax rates are going to result in the ability to buy more stuff is unfortunate. The unfortunate part is that people stop pursuing how the macro economy really functions.

The error isn't a surprisingly. Intuitively it seems right. The problem is that intuition is based on a very limited personal perspective of home and personal economics. It assumes that everything else is constant.

Few things are constant and when they are, it is over the short term. Personal, home, business, up to microeconomics assumes all other things remain constant. Micro economics makes this an explicit statement because, at that level, the level of entire markets, it is an assumption of apparent consequence.

At the level of macroeconomics, it no longer holds. The government and general taxation functions at a macro level. Intuition is useless at the level of macro econ. Often, what is true, at the level of home economics, functions entirely opposite at a macro level. As well, things can go either way, depending on the rest of the economy.

This is true of general taxes. Lower income taxes are no guarantee of being able to buy more stuff. The factors which are required to increase how much stuff can be consumed have very little to do with tax rates. What limited effect that tax rates may have is indirect and short lived, at best.

The reality of how the economy is affected by general income taxes is the same basic process that causes inflation. All other things being equal, increasing the supply of disposable income has no effect except that of increasing prices.

In order for this to not be the case, all other thing have to not be equal. The number of things that have to change, and the process by which they do, to increase production and there by consumption, is a bit more complex than just lowering taxes. Even with economic condition being right for production to increase, there is no guarantee that it will hold for anything but the short run.

 

[LiberalMedia]

Are two hundred words really necessary?

Members of congress are paid 174,000 dollars per year. Plus expenses. To work about one third of the year. And get full retirement for life after simply taking the oath of office.

I think I have saved a hundred plus words here.

While this was not your assignment, I do appreciate the effort you have put into completing it. However, your "arguments" were entirely non-sequitur as they do not address the prompt, which was: Explain in detail how taxes are currently being used in the United States "for the advancement of the ruling classes and continued subjugation of the productive working class."

Mymbyrs of Cyngryss being paid ridiculous sums of money, while an outrage, does not in and of itself advance the ruling class, nor does it subjugate the working class.

The only thing taxes advance is government growth. Anyone who thinks the government is actually interested in "helping the poor," needs help IMO.

And how can we help them without tax money with which to do so? Think before you post.