Terri Schiavo's Feeding Tube to be Removed on Friday

[Eightball]

She has been deprived of cognitive function. What difference does it make if she is drugged? It kills the pain and it can't interfere with cognitive ability she doesn't have in the first place

Well, I'm glad we found the useless human(Terry) that doesn't need to over-crowd the life boat.

It's just like Mr. Spock.........It's so logical.......no need for emotion.

Cognitive is not present............."voila!"............Why didn't I think of that.

Funny, the cognitive assumption isn't accepted by all neuroligists in Terry's case. Again, we error in favor of death rather than life.

 

[SmarterThanYou]

Smarterthanyou:

I could only be a spin doctor while talking to a person with a moniker that reeks of "condescending".

I noticed that you use the old "spin" description quite a bit. Really, lacks substance when debating.

only when used by a 'liberal', right?

How about you answering.........Was Terry's life before the tube removal......a painful, distressful life.......of suffering, like a dieing, cancer victim? Is quality of life determined by measure of brain function. I thought that pain would be the ultimate factor in most cases. If Terry was vegetative, then would she even realize a feeling or knowledge of suffering, and then need it brought to an end?

Quality of life is determined by the individual in question. I shouldn't have to explain this to you. The rest of what you're talking about is basically keeping a person who is either non-cognative or barely cognative alive indefinitely because they aren't really suffering, yet before that person became non-cognitive, one of their greatest fears COULD have been being entirely dependent upon others or a machine to be kept alive. The mere thought of their continued lingering with no quality of life may have been suffering to them, therefore they made the decision before hand to not deal with it.

Just more spin for you condescending smart folks.

 

[ReillyT]

Well, I'm glad we found the useless human(Terry) that doesn't need to over-crowd the life boat.

It's just like Mr. Spock.........It's so logical.......no need for emotion.

Cognitive is not present............."voila!"............Why didn't I think of that.

Funny, the cognitive assumption isn't accepted by all neuroligists in Terry's case. Again, we error in favor of death rather than life.

You have a flair for melo-drama. It isn't interesting and it's kind of annoying, but you definitely have flair. Are you by chance a 16 year old girl?

 

[Avatar4321]

If all who wish to see Mrs. Schiavo's suffering to continue actually knew what they were talking about, the whole debate would be moot, because they'd want to see her PEG tube removed too.

You know Bully. I have a feeling Terri is alot happier than even you are despite all this. But you cant complain about watching her suffer when you are the one who advocating starving her and making her suffer.

 

[Eightball]

You have a flair for melo-drama. It isn't interesting and it's kind of annoying, but you definitely have flair. Are you by chance a 16 year old girl?

A 16 year old girl would probably have more compassion, than the likes of some here.

Melodramatic isn't even a close or accurate.

A cleft-lipped baby was late-term aborted in England just recently and the doctors got away with but a little public slap.

The said it was done in "good faith". The court said.....Ok.

Your forgiven.

They meant well...........that's good enough.

My mother died a horrible, slow, death of Lupus......yet at no time would my father, my sister, or myself want to see her life/care terminated. I prayed that God would mercifully take her, and indeed it did happen. Her death was both mercy to her and myself, as I suffered/anguished through this down-hill slide........but not once did I consider that it would be right/moral/ethical for one of her doctors to assist in her death.

Some will say that we were selfish, and pro-longed my mother's suffering, but they aren't us. They are just rationalizing. Life is more than surmises, and rationalizations...........Life is more than science, breathing, and functioning. It has an immaterial side that must be considered.

That comes from a 57 year old(not 16 year old girl)male, Geology degree, plus two A.A. degrees, and 5 years of trade school to resulting in a career as a Heavy Commercial construction electricial.

That also entails raising three sons...........one of which is on his(oldest son) second Kidney transplant........and has accounted for his mother and father spending many hours in hospitals for many surgerys and complications in past years.

All are married except for the baby(24 years old) who is a 1st year med. student, and engaged to marry in June 05.

Yeah, I got my credentials to have some flair in my writing. That's not spin, that living life to the ultimate of reality. Quality of life nowadays is too conveniently, and smoothly packaged for palatable human consumption

 

[ReillyT]

A 16 year old girl would probably have more compassion, than the likes of some here.

Melodramatic isn't even a close or accurate.

A cleft-lipped baby was late-term aborted in England just recently and the doctors got away with but a little public slap.

The said it was done in "good faith". The court said.....Ok.

Your forgiven.

They meant well...........that's good enough.

My mother died a horrible, slow, death of Lupus......yet at no time would my father, my sister, or myself want to see her life/care terminated. I prayed that God would mercifully take her, and indeed it did happen. Her death was both mercy to her and myself, as I suffered/anguished through this down-hill slide........but not once did I consider that it would be right/moral/ethical for one of her doctors to assist in her death.

Some will say that we were selfish, and pro-longed my mother's suffering, but they aren't us. They are just rationalizing. Life is more than surmises, and rationalizations...........Life is more than science, breathing, and functioning. It has an immaterial side that must be considered.

That comes from a 57 year old(not 16 year old girl)male, Geology degree, plus two A.A. degrees, and 5 years of trade school to resulting in a career as a Heavy Commercial construction electricial.

That also entails raising three sons...........one of which is on his(oldest son) second Kidney transplant........and has accounted for his mother and father spending many hours in hospitals for many surgerys and complications in past years.

All are married except for the baby(24 years old) who is a 1st year med. student, and engaged to marry in June 05.

Yeah, I got my credentials to have some flair in my writing. That's not spin, that living life to the ultimate of reality. Quality of life nowadays is too conveniently, and smoothly packaged for palatable human consumption

I'm really sorry about your family's medical luck. That sucks. You're not the only person though, that has had bad things happen to himself or his family. Most everyone deals with that at some time in their life. But not everyone has come to the same conclusions that you have. That doesn't mean that they aren't moral or have no concern for human life. That doesn't mean that they have no compassion for human suffering. They just evaluate what is important in life differently than you do. If you accept that and try to understand why they feel the way they do, I think you will have better luck persuading them to understand the way you feel.

I am sorry about your mother and son though. I hope he is okay.

 

[SmarterThanYou]

My mother died a horrible, slow, death of Lupus......yet at no time would my father, my sister, or myself want to see her life/care terminated. I prayed that God would mercifully take her, and indeed it did happen. Her death was both mercy to her and myself, as I suffered/anguished through this down-hill slide........but not once did I consider that it would be right/moral/ethical for one of her doctors to assist in her death.

Some will say that we were selfish, and pro-longed my mother's suffering, but they aren't us. They are just rationalizing. Life is more than surmises, and rationalizations...........Life is more than science, breathing, and functioning. It has an immaterial side that must be considered.

my wife has lupus as well eightball, I'm sorry you had to watch your mother pass like that. Was it her wish to live as long as possible? If it was, then you certainly weren't selfish at all.

 

[Eightball]

I'm really sorry about your family's medical luck. That sucks. You're not the only person though, that has had bad things happen to himself or his family. Most everyone deals with that at some time in their life. But not everyone has come to the same conclusions that you have. That doesn't mean that they aren't moral or have no concern for human life. That doesn't mean that they have no compassion for human suffering. They just evaluate what is important in life differently than you do. If you accept that and try to understand why they feel the way they do, I think you will have better luck persuading them to understand the way you feel.

I am sorry about your mother and son though. I hope he is okay.

I know there are other opinions........my point was that your not talking to a 16 year old girl.........

And another mentioned my spin or melodramatic fliar.......well.........that's not drama coming out of my writing, that's a result of my life's experiences........

I am well aware that I don't own all life's experiences, and in fact........many have much more to share.......and have faired badly in "life's game".

Thanks for the nice reply........

I just want to have some sensible discourse without folks calling other's names.........etc.

 

[ReillyT]

I know there are other opinions........my point was that your not talking to a 16 year old girl.........

And another mentioned my spin or melodramatic fliar.......well.........that's not drama coming out of my writing, that's a result of my life's experiences........

I am well aware that I don't own all life's experiences, and in fact........many have much more to share.......and have faired badly in "life's game".

Thanks for the nice reply........

I just want to have some sensible discourse without folks calling other's names.........etc.

Understood. I really wish the best for your family, and congratulations for your daughter's upcoming nuptials.

 

[Eightball]

my wife has lupus as well eightball, I'm sorry you had to watch your mother pass like that. Was it her wish to live as long as possible? If it was, then you certainly weren't selfish at all.

My mother never expressed an opinion in regards to how to deal with her life, if things got bad. My father was ultimately the one that had to make the last call, but my sister and I were there to be supportive. I know that my mother suffered in pain and other discomforts right to the end.........I'm just glad that she finally was mercifully not suffering anymore.

Concerning Shiavo.........It is indeed an emotional issue. It would be nice to just let things go a certain way, and not have to be tangled in the things that seem to be part of this saga as it has unfolded today.

I wish life was just simple, but most of us know that life is a multiplicity of bonds between others. Terry Shiavo, is indeed part of a group of human bonds........parents, spouse, siblings.........and others.............Obviously, no one wants this woman to suffer..............

Suffering sometimes has a reason, and sometimes we can't see it at all......Why is there suffering? Well, if your religious, you will probably have a different "take" on it than an agnostic, and especially an agnostic who is well versed in medicine.

Never the less.......I see life as a multi-faceted thing that has impact on so much more than just the owner of that life. I try to avoid using the word "selfish" because all humans have and needs, and to a certain extent, can't function without the presence of other humans in the realm of "needs".

Terry Shiavo, was deemed "vegetative" by experts in medicine, yet, her parents sensed that there was something cognitive going on in her, as measured by her responses to their presence with her. They may have been being hopeful, yet, mysteriously, there are facets of life that even science hasn't plumbed to great depths. Is it possible that on some very deep level, that Terry was still cognitive to other humans and stimuli, yet only had the brain of a sloth. I don't know. Life is a mystery.

Was she just ingesting food and processing it as well as just breathing and exhaling air? Well, it seems that experts saw nothing more than that. They even said that her responses to her parents were not cognitive.......How did they know? I don't. Did they come to this summation based on brain wave analysis? Could something have been going on in Terry's brain that was unmeasurable to instruments?

I for one, come from the direction of hope, and more hope, until well, there's not a shadow of doubt that hope is finished.

The Terry Schiavo scenario is something that would inevitably come...........if not now..........it would come up in another scenario.........and we would be right where we are now.

These situations in life.........just have a way of bringing out something in all of us. If we had our way, we would sweep this under a rug, and proceed as though everything is just fine. These situations force us to confront important issues about life...........namely, what defines quality in life, and who should be the ultimate judge of that life. When is suffering trumping the quality of life, and when is suffering not. Still we have to define "quality". Until we have a concensus about that, the Terry Schiavo's of the world will haunt us. I doubt that there will be a concensus.

My greatest concern is that life is not looked upon as just a function of breathing, and eating, and ignores the complexities of human familial bonds that go with it. No man is an "island". Terry, was not an "island", but a complex creature with many people that love her, and only want the best for her. Some feel that Terry's best is laying in a bed, and being fed with a tube, and getting caressed by loved ones. Other's see this as a lack of quality for Terry, and feel that ending her life would be a kindness to her. Of course they see Terry's life as a type of suffering. I guess this is where I come to "logger heads" with them. I have seen painful suffering up close, in my life, and though Terry lacked in the area of brain function, her life still ticked on and didn't seem to exhibit, torturous pain, or major discomfort. In fact, I wonder if Terry even realized any discomfort with her limited brain function. Keeping her living, wasn't a guarantee that there would be positive improvements in Terry, but some were more than pleased to live with the present Terry. I really think that if her parents had witnessed a daughter who was writhing in pain, and being "morphined" to nearly a comatose condition as done with terminally ill patients, I think that there would have been a totally different approach to Terry by them(parents).

Terry Schiavo didn't project in the news videos, that she was suffering a slow painful demise. She just layed there and responded to stimuli, in a rather innocent child-like manner. Whether she had wanted her life support ended under these conditions, I don't know. Was she aware in that child-like state that she had made that proclamation to her husband some time ago, who knows?

Well, I'm saddened. If Terry dies in the next 2 weeks, and the news comes out and says, "Terry didn't feel a thing" because of great pain management.......well......have we progressed as a society/culture?.......Only time will tell. I have my ideas.

 

[Annie]

I am making some implications regarding 8ball, that perhaps I shouldn't. It sounds in many ways that he went through what I did with my own mother, who was 80 something when she died.

Her first stroke happened the Easter after I filed for divorce. My parents, brother and SIL and our assorted children were in a restaurant. My mom started talking 'nonsense.' That was in 1993. She died Sept. 2004. For all those years she had a DNR order, (Do Not Resuscitate). http://eduserv.hscer.washington.edu/bioethics/topics/dnr.html

She was very aware of what she was signing and my father who is 2 years older signed one at the same time. They made it very clear, they wanted no 'extraordinary means' to keep them alive. Food and water are not 'extraordinary.' That is what is bothering me about this.

As DK and others have made perfectly clear perhaps inadvertently, this case is setting a precedent for state sponsored assisted suicide.

 

[Zhukov]

Some of these folks who pretend to be so very concerned about human life are the biggest cheerleaders for the death penalty!

Yeah, because Terri is no different than a murderer. What a great point.

 

[Eightball]

Some of these folks who pretend to be so very concerned about human life are the biggest cheerleaders for the death penalty! And they find nothing wrong with 1,500 of our GI's losing their lives for a pack in lies in Iraq!

They want to keep the soldiers in Iraq. I want them brought home.

You have the compassion of a ,,,,,,,,,,,well.......to liken Terry's situation to death row inmates that have raped, murdured, and in most cases done it without remorse.......and that those that are concerned about Terry's life should somehow have the same compassion for the murderers..........Your one twisted individual, your playing politics with a very sad situation.

Let me ask you something "Itsthetruth"......are you pro-life or pro-abortion/choice?

 

[Avatar4321]

Let me ask you something "Itsthetruth"......are you pro-life or pro-abortion/choice?

ITT isnt going to tell you. heck he/she wouldnt even answer questions about how old they are.

 

[Bullypulpit]

Mr. Bully, what was her actual suffering prior to what's going to happen in the next couple weeks now that the feeding/hydration is cut off?

Will her quality of life get better in the next 2 weeks prior to her death by starvation and dehydration?

Answer that Mr. Bully?

If she had 20% brain left.........did that cause her to suffer?

Was she in pain Mr. Bully?

You'll never understand until you've been there. So stop preaching ...I'm not impressed.

 

[Itsthetruth]

Yeah, because Terri is no different than a murderer. What a great point.

People might wonder what in the world your responding to!!! Try to post a link to my comment and see what happens!!!

You're gonna have to pick up the pace at bit!

 

[Eightball]

I am making some implications regarding 8ball, that perhaps I shouldn't. It sounds in many ways that he went through what I did with my own mother, who was 80 something when she died.

Here first stroke happened the Easter after I filed for divorce. My parents, brother and SIL and our assorted children were in a restaurant. My mom started talking 'nonsense.' That was in 1993. She died Sept. 2004. For all those years she had a DNR order, (Do Not Resuscitate). http://eduserv.hscer.washington.edu/bioethics/topics/dnr.html

She was very aware of what she was signing and my father who is 2 years older signed one at the same time. They made it very clear, they wanted no 'extraordinary means' to keep them alive. Food and water are not 'extraordinary.' That is what is bothering me about this.

As DK and others have made perfectly clear perhaps inadvertently, this case is setting a precedent for state sponsored assisted suicide.

Excellent point Kathianne:

What is extraordinary about giving one the essentials of life and letting the dominoes fall thereafter? Then we leave them in the Creator's hands after that. We comfort the person, but we don't encourage/hasten their demise. We let the natural process have it's way. It's still painful.

Is that basically what you were saying Kathianne?

 

[Annie]

Excellent point Kathianne:

What is extraordinary about giving one the essentials of life and letting the dominoes fall thereafter? Then we leave them in the Creator's hands after that. We comfort the person, but we don't encourage/hasten their demise. We let the natural process have it's way. It's still painful.

Is that basically what you were saying Kathianne?

Yes eightball, that is exactly what I am saying. My dad is alive and well downstairs. He has some health issues, which he deals with meds and diet. He had a pacemaker put in last summer, but took a pass on the model that would 'shock' his heart. He didn't want to have that type of 'extraordinary' means involved, 'no paddles' is part of DNR. He cares for himself, but would probably take a pass on chemo/radiation if that became an issue. But not 'nourishment.'

My mom sort of recovered from the first stroke, but knew things were not going to get better. Thankfully she was 'cognizant' up to the end, though her speech could not articulate that fully, she did find ways to make it clear. Those last years were very difficult, for her and us, but none of us have any regrets. We did the best we could to give her dignity and respect of her wishes.

 

[Eightball]

You'll never understand until you've been there. So stop preaching ...I'm not impressed.

Preaching........oh geez.........I'm not trying to impress you, and no, I doubt I will understand you or impress you.

But I won't insult you. I was just trying to ask you what I thought was a pertinent question. Is she suffering in a painful way.......and if not.........what is her suffering. What was wrong with that question. Certainly not mean-spirited or preaching.......lol

When you say, you've been there. Have you experienced Mrs. Schiavo's conditon? I doubt that. If you have experienced a loved one with a helpless medical condtion similar to her's, I can also identify with that. If you are a doctor, and have seen this plight in patients, does it give you a better "handle" on it that those that aren't in the medical field? Is it possible that one can become rather hardened to human suffering if exposed to it a lot. Can one become too clinical, to keep from emotionally being affected by this ethical dilemma?

None of the above was intended to disrespect or dish you.

 

[Annie]

You'll never understand until you've been there. So stop preaching ...I'm not impressed.

Bully perhaps you could take the time to read what eightball has posted about his mother? You and I may disagree regarding Terri, but I don't believe you would dis me. I respect the work you do in the medical field, but on this issue I think you are prejudiced. You are putting your feelings before the facts of the case.