The Argument for A Wealth Tax

[Natural Citizen]

um, you are saying there are gold certificates dated later than 1933. Both statements you listed in your quotes state the same thing differently. I don't know if it's true or not only that it's true you said it.

1933 is completely irrelevant, as the United States didn't sever the dollar from gold and silver until 1971. And you'll find that it was 1971 that the 1%ers started doing better than the working class. Before 1971, the working class was doing great and the 1%ers were doing lousy. The 1%ers get rich off the monetary system itself. And the working class gets poorer.

For instance, here is a silver certificate dated 1953. At any point a citizen could demand silver for it. It states so clearly on it. It wasn't until after 1971 that 'money', a store of value, was made illegal in paper form and we the working class were forced to use federal reserve notes in paper form...'currency'.. that were backed by an IOU.

You'll notice that the 'money' in the picture does not say Federal Reserve Note.That's what makes it real 'money.'

I allowed Toddster the courtesy of changing the terms of controversy to FDR's bank holiday. He can't win either way, the Keynesian that he is. And he knows it. lol. He knows perfectly well what's coming his way if he has to discuss the topic in relevant terms. Ha.

 

[Lesh]

Interesting idea. It would end a lot of debt and funding issues

Consider

US wealth inequality - top 0.1% worth as much as the bottom 90%

The top 1/10 of one per cent own almost 25% of the nation's wealth

That's the same amount of wealth as the bottom NINETY PER CENT of the county

In that light a 2% wealth tax isn't that outrageous

I haven't checked the numbers but I have read that it could provide 30 trillion dollars over 10 years.


Health care

Education

Green New Deal

The problem is, like other taxes, it may start at 2% for the top 10%, but will grow to 14% for the top 50%. Our government will always outspend what they collect in taxes. Did you know that social security started as a 1% tax and has grown to 7.6% and now includes something called hospital insurance. Yeah, over 7 times as high. If you happen to be self employed (like me) you pay 15.3%.

In 1913, the top tax bracket was 7 percent on all income over $500,000 ($11 million in today’s dollars1); and the lowest tax bracket was 1 percent.

Social Security wouldn't be insolvent if they hadn't spent it on previous budgets vs saving it for what it was collected for.

Didn't they purchased treasury notes with the excess and are just now beginning to cash them in because of all the Baby Boomers who are beginning to retire in numbers now? It is projected to run out in a decade or so I think, unless we fix it. But running out of a surplus means not being able to pay full benefits. Probably happen right before I retire too. Bastards!

The Trust Fund will allow for full benefits until about 2035 (depending on GDP...3% GDP growth would extend that several years). At that point payroll taxes are projected to cover 75% of benefits as they stand now.

Raising the payroll cap (currently no money over $110K is taxed for Social Security) would solve that problem easily

Raising the payroll cap (currently no money over $110K is taxed for Social Security) would solve that problem easily

No it wouldn't. A rich person paying twice as much as they do now would get (almost) double the benefit.
The current cap is $132,900.

Pure nonsense

 

[Bootney Lee Farnsworth]

um, you are saying there are gold certificates dated later than 1933. Both statements you listed in your quotes state the same thing differently. I don't know if it's true or not only that it's true you said it.

1933 is completely irrelevant, as the United States didn't sever the dollar from gold and silver until 1971. And you'll find that it was 1971 that the 1%ers started doing better than the working class. Before 1971, the working class was doing great and the 1%ers were doing lousy. The 1%ers get rich off the monetary system itself. And the working class gets poorer.

For instance, here is a silver certificate dated 1953. At any point a citizen could demand silver for it. It states so clearly on it. It wasn't until after 1971 that money, a store of value, was made illegal and we the working class was forced to use federal reserve notes that were backed by an IOU.

I allowed Toddster the courtesy of changing the terms of controversy to FDR's bank holiday. He can't win either way. And he knows it. lol. He knows perfectly well what's coming his way if he has to discuss the topic in relevant terms. Ha.

Probably less than 1% of the U.S. voting population knows about the stuff you are discussing.

That is VERY sad.

I recommend this to all Americans:

https://www.amazon.com/Debt-Virus-Compelling-Solution-Problems/dp/0944435130&tag=ff0d01-20

Editorial Reviews
Review
". . . intriguing and penetrating as it questions the traditional role of money in our economy. [Jaikaran's book] challenges orthodox methods of money management in our economy and offers a convincing alternative to the status quo . . . porvocative reading even for the layperson." -- Dr. Aston I. Veramallahy, Professor of Economics, Indiana University East

"There is no question in my mind but that the issue must be seriously considered by every American as well as people from other countries in this world . . . [Jaikaran] has observed a phenomenon that almost everyone else seems to be blind to." -- Gerald M. McIntosh, Executive Vice President, Administaff

. . . intriguing and penetrating as it questions the traditional role of money in our economy. [Jaikaran's book] challenges orthodox methods of money management in our economy and offers a convincing alternative to the status quo. . . provocative reading even for the layperson. -- Dr. Ashton I. Veramallay, Professor of Economics, Indiana University East

There is no question in my mind but that the issue must be seriously considered by every American as well as people from other countries in this world. . . [Jaikaran] has observed a phenomenon that almost everyone else seems to be blind to. -- Gerald M. McIntosh, Executive Vice President, Administaff

About the Author
Jacques S. Jaikaran was born in Guyana where only elementary education was free. In order to pay to go to high school, he became a plantation laborer even before his teen years. Following high school he bought a one-way ticket from South America to England. He won a scholarship to medical school, continuing his studies in the United States where he ultimately became a plastic surgeon. While serving on a board of directors of a Texas bank, Jaikaran began to study the monetary systems of the United States and other countries.
______

I have actually met Dr. Jaikaran. Dude is wicked, scary smart.

 

[Natural Citizen]

um, you are saying there are gold certificates dated later than 1933. Both statements you listed in your quotes state the same thing differently. I don't know if it's true or not only that it's true you said it.

1933 is completely irrelevant, as the United States didn't sever the dollar from gold and silver until 1971. And you'll find that it was 1971 that the 1%ers started doing better than the working class. Before 1971, the working class was doing great and the 1%ers were doing lousy. The 1%ers get rich off the monetary system itself. And the working class gets poorer.

For instance, here is a silver certificate dated 1953. At any point a citizen could demand silver for it. It states so clearly on it. It wasn't until after 1971 that money, a store of value, was made illegal and we the working class was forced to use federal reserve notes that were backed by an IOU.

I allowed Toddster the courtesy of changing the terms of controversy to FDR's bank holiday. He can't win either way. And he knows it. lol. He knows perfectly well what's coming his way if he has to discuss the topic in relevant terms. Ha.

Probably less than 1% of the U.S. voting population knows about the stuff you are discussing.

That is VERY sad.

I recommend this to all Americans:

https://www.amazon.com/Debt-Virus-Compelling-Solution-Problems/dp/0944435130&tag=ff0d01-20

I have actually met Dr. Jaikaran. Dude is wicked, scary smart.

Yeah. And that's precisely why weasels like Toddster get away from pretending to be free-market conservatives in broad daylight.

If people knew how they were really getting humped, we'd have a riot on our hands.

 

[Natural Citizen]

This monetary policy is purposely complex and very few understand it. And that's okay. It's why people who do understand it take the time to explain it. Our monetary system is Keynesian. And to quote Keynes, himself, ''By this means government may secretly and unobserved, confiscate the wealth of the people, and not one man in a million will detect the theft." Discussed correctly, however, anyone can understand the system regardless of the complexity of it.

 

[Lesh]

Here we go again. I read the Creature from Jekyll Island years ago and it scared me...but felt oddly wrong.

What it misses is that yes...the Fed DOES create money out of thin air to lend (and profit off) it...but what was missing is that when loans are paid off...that principal then DISAPPEARS by the same mechanism

 

[Lesh]

And to quote Keynes, himself, ''By this means government may secretly and unobserved, confiscate the wealth of the people, and not one man in a million will detect the theft."

Sorry...Keynes never said that

Talk:John Maynard Keynes - Wikiquote

 

[Natural Citizen]

Here we go again. I read the Creature from Jekyll Island years ago and it scared me...but felt oddly wrong.

What it misses is that yes...the Fed DOES create money out of thin air to lend (and profit off) it...but what was missing is that when loans are paid off...that principal then DISAPPEARS by the same mechanism

That's a book I've never read. My better half read it, she said it was pretty good.

 

[Natural Citizen]

And to quote Keynes, himself, ''By this means government may secretly and unobserved, confiscate the wealth of the people, and not one man in a million will detect the theft."

Sorry...Keynes never said that

Talk:John Maynard Keynes - Wikiquote

Well, here's how your source quotes Keynes...

"There is no subtler, no surer means of overturning the existing basis of society than to debauch the currency. The process engages all the hidden forces of economic law on the side of destruction, and does it in a manner which not one man in a million is able to diagnose."


It's pretty much sayign the same thing. Except he's correctly adding in the real fact that the quickest way to destroy a nation is to debase its money.

I'll check my source, though. I normally don't quote someone unless I've sourced it myself.

 

[bendog]

This monetary policy is purposely complex and very few understand it. And that's okay. It's why people who do understand it take the time to explain it. Our monetary system is Keynesian. And to quote Keynes, himself, ''By this means government may secretly and unobserved, confiscate the wealth of the people, and not one man in a million will detect the theft." Discussed correctly, however, anyone can understand the system regardless of the complexity of it.

Aside from the misquote what does this term "monetary system" mean to you? Our monetary system is "fiat," the same as the rest of the developed world's.

 

[Natural Citizen]

Here we go again. I read the Creature from Jekyll Island years ago and it scared me...but felt oddly wrong.

What it misses is that yes...the Fed DOES create money out of thin air to lend (and profit off) it...but what was missing is that when loans are paid off...that principal then DISAPPEARS by the same mechanism

When currency and debt meet, they destroy each other. If we just pay off the principal only, all of the loans and Treasury bonds that exist, the entire currency supply vanishes. So, if we don't go deeper into debt every year, the whole thing goes into a deflationary collapse under the weight of those payments.

 

[danielpalos]

Interesting idea. It would end a lot of debt and funding issues

Consider

US wealth inequality - top 0.1% worth as much as the bottom 90%

The top 1/10 of one per cent own almost 25% of the nation's wealth

That's the same amount of wealth as the bottom NINETY PER CENT of the county

In that light a 2% wealth tax isn't that outrageous

I haven't checked the numbers but I have read that it could provide 30 trillion dollars over 10 years.


Health care

Education

Green New Deal

increasing the minimum wage is more effective.

 

[Toddsterpatriot]

The problem is, like other taxes, it may start at 2% for the top 10%, but will grow to 14% for the top 50%. Our government will always outspend what they collect in taxes. Did you know that social security started as a 1% tax and has grown to 7.6% and now includes something called hospital insurance. Yeah, over 7 times as high. If you happen to be self employed (like me) you pay 15.3%.

In 1913, the top tax bracket was 7 percent on all income over $500,000 ($11 million in today’s dollars1); and the lowest tax bracket was 1 percent.

Social Security wouldn't be insolvent if they hadn't spent it on previous budgets vs saving it for what it was collected for.

Didn't they purchased treasury notes with the excess and are just now beginning to cash them in because of all the Baby Boomers who are beginning to retire in numbers now? It is projected to run out in a decade or so I think, unless we fix it. But running out of a surplus means not being able to pay full benefits. Probably happen right before I retire too. Bastards!

The Trust Fund will allow for full benefits until about 2035 (depending on GDP...3% GDP growth would extend that several years). At that point payroll taxes are projected to cover 75% of benefits as they stand now.

Raising the payroll cap (currently no money over $110K is taxed for Social Security) would solve that problem easily

Raising the payroll cap (currently no money over $110K is taxed for Social Security) would solve that problem easily

No it wouldn't. A rich person paying twice as much as they do now would get (almost) double the benefit.
The current cap is $132,900.

Not if they leave the payout cap where it is now but make them keep paying in. It would become additional SS"tax" so to speak on high incomes.

Oh, changing it from "insurance" into welfare will fix it. Ok.

 

[Natural Citizen]

Aside from the misquote what does this term "monetary system" mean to you? Our monetary system is "fiat," the same as the rest of the developed world's.

Monetary policy is a more accurate term. Thuogh, I do sometimes call it a system myself. I need to stop doing that.

But, yes. Fiat system. Currency is not money. It's currency. To be money, there needs to be a store of value.

The rest of the world is starting to get scared off the dollar now. They depend on it, yes. But that can change.

Therein lies the rub. When the dollar finally does crash, the whole world will go down with it unless they move to something else. The dolalr is almost worthless now, it's been inflated to the point of being almost nothing.

We're seeing some interesting things with the Asian and BRICS banks. And we're starting to see other nations merge in some interesting ways, particularly the satellites they're putting up there. That's where all of the international clearing happens. It's all digital. And I think that's why we're startign to hear all of the silliness abouit a space force, the west isnlt gonna juve wit hthat stuff, they're gonna want to keep an aye on it. .A lot of nations are starting to get their gold reserves in order, too.

Remember all of that government spying everyone was raising hell about a few years ago? Well, what they never talked about in the lamestream media was that the majority of the spying was on the financial clearing of other nations. That's a big deal.

 

[Toddsterpatriot]

um, you are saying there are gold certificates dated later than 1933. Both statements you listed in your quotes state the same thing differently. I don't know if it's true or not only that it's true you said it.

1933 is completely irrelevant, as the United States didn't sever the dollar from gold and silver until 1971. And you'll find that it was 1971 that the 1%ers started doing better than the working class. Before 1971, the working class was doing great and the 1%ers were doing lousy. The 1%ers get rich off the monetary system itself. And the working class gets poorer.

For instance, here is a silver certificate dated 1953. At any point a citizen could demand silver for it. It states so clearly on it. It wasn't until after 1971 that 'money', a store of value, was made illegal in paper form and we the working class were forced to use federal reserve notes in paper form...'currency'.. that were backed by an IOU.

You'll notice that the 'money' in the picture does not say Federal Reserve Note.That's what makes it real 'money.'

I allowed Toddster the courtesy of changing the terms of controversy to FDR's bank holiday. He can't win either way, the Keynesian that he is. And he knows it. lol. He knows perfectly well what's coming his way if he has to discuss the topic in relevant terms. Ha.

the United States didn't sever the dollar from gold and silver until 1971.

Silver redemptions ended in 1968.

I allowed Toddster the courtesy of changing the terms of controversy to FDR's bank holiday.

What controversy about the bank holiday?
Just highlighting your ignorance about gold.

 

[Toddsterpatriot]

Here we go again. I read the Creature from Jekyll Island years ago and it scared me...but felt oddly wrong.

What it misses is that yes...the Fed DOES create money out of thin air to lend (and profit off) it...but what was missing is that when loans are paid off...that principal then DISAPPEARS by the same mechanism

That book is full of silly errors. He did find his target audience though.

 

[Bootney Lee Farnsworth]

Here we go again. I read the Creature from Jekyll Island years ago and it scared me...but felt oddly wrong.

What it misses is that yes...the Fed DOES create money out of thin air to lend (and profit off) it...but what was missing is that when loans are paid off...that principal then DISAPPEARS by the same mechanism

Wait. Let me make sure I understand you.

Start from $0. The Fed orders the treasury to print $1000 of fiat money and loans it into circulation with interest at 2% APY for 1 year, the debtor must repay $1020. How does the debtor find the extra $20 if there is only $1000 in existence?

.

 

[Natural Citizen]

Silver redemptions ended in 1968.

Oh, that's right. The silver redemptions were ended in '68. The gold redemptions followed in '71.

 

[Toddsterpatriot]

Here we go again. I read the Creature from Jekyll Island years ago and it scared me...but felt oddly wrong.

What it misses is that yes...the Fed DOES create money out of thin air to lend (and profit off) it...but what was missing is that when loans are paid off...that principal then DISAPPEARS by the same mechanism

Wait. Let me make sure I understand you.

Start from $0. The Fed orders the treasury to print $1000 of fiat money and loans it into circulation with interest at 2% APY for 1 year, the debtor must repay $1020. How does the debtor find the extra $20 if there is only $1000 in existence?

.

How does the debtor find the extra $20

The same way you pay off your mortgage every month.

if there is only $1000 in existence?

Luckily there is more than $1000 in existence.

 

[Toddsterpatriot]

Silver redemptions ended in 1968.

Oh, that's right. The silver redemptions were ended in '68. The gold redemptions followed in '71.

When was the last time your parents, or grandparents or great grandparents redeemed a gold certificate?