The Battle: Truth vs. Ideology

[PoliticalChic]

I love a battle!
Coming up, a question of the facts about President Roosevelt's foreign policy.

Me, the facts, and my opponent, History Butt, a Roosevelt apologist who can never see a problem with his idol.

To shed light on the question, I asked a series of questions about the former President, History Butt gave his considered opinions.
You decide.





1. PC: Was Roosevelt mentally unstable, and unable to objectively view the world scene?
Why did Four Presidents and their six Secretaries of State for over a decade and a half refuse to recognize the Soviet government?


HB: Your questions are just stupid and can not be debated or discussed to any kind of conclusion. Lets look at those questions.
Was FDR mentally unstable? No.

PC: OK, I admit that the phrasing was...incendiary, but it gets to this point: there were so very many reasons not to recognize the USSR....one wonders if a rational person would have...

a. Previous occupants of the office refused to. Almost as soon as he was President, FDR recognized the Soviet Union.... He assumed office in March of 1933, and on November 16th, 1933, signed a worthless agreement with Litvinov, recognizing the USSR.



b. Did Roosevelt have any reason to believe that Stalin would live up to his word?
Roosevelt signed the recognition agreement: Litvinov "returned to the Soviet embassy.....all smiles....and said 'Well, it's all in the bag; we have it.'" On September 23, 1939, Dr. D. H. Dombrowsky testified before the Dies committee. The Winona Republican-Herald on Newspapers.com

And Dombrowsky testified that Litvinov boasted that he pulled the wool over FDR's eyes:

"Well, it's all in the bag. They wanted us to recognize the debts we owed them and I promised we were going to negotiate. But they did not know we were going to negotiate until doomsday. The next one was a corker; they wanted us to promise freedom of religion in the Soviet Union, and I promised that, too. I was very much prompted to offer that I would personally collect all the Bibles and ship them over."
Manly, "The Twenty Year Revolution," p.33.




Why, ever, sign treaties with the communists? Why?

c. In 1982, Ronald Reagan asked his arms control advisory committee to conduct a review of Soviet compliance in the 25 years of arms control treaties. It was the first such concerted review ever. The answer to the question of Soviet arms controls compliance was that there was none.
West, "American Betrayal," p. 198.

"The Soviet Union repeatedly violates treaties, and the rest of the world turns their heads and proceeds to enter into still more treaties, which the Soviets violate with impunity." Joseph D. Douglass, Jr., "Why the Soviets Violate Arms Control Treaties," vii, 83.



d. The agreement that Litvinov signed promised " To respect scrupulously the indisputable right of the United States to order its own life within its own jurisdiction in its own way and to refrain from interfering in any manner in the internal affairs of the United States, its territories or possessions.... in particular, from any act tending to incite or encourage armed intervention, or any agitation or propaganda having as an aim, the violation of the territorial integrity of the United States, its territories or possessions, or the bringing about by force of a change in the political or social order of the whole or any part of the United States, its territories or possessions....

Not to permit the formation or residence on its territory of any organization or group--and to prevent the activity on its territory of any organization or group, or of representatives or officials of any organization or group--which makes claim to be the Government of,...

...prevent the activity on its territory of any organization or group, or of representatives or officials of any organization or group--which has as an aim the overthrow or the preparation for the overthrow of, or the bringing about by force of a change in, the political or social order of the whole or any part of the United States,...etc." Roosevelt-Litvinov





Get it? They promised no espionage, no Communist Part of the United States of America (CPUSA)....



e. "FDR had knowledge of two glaring examples of communist conspiracy specifically directed against the United States." Hoover, in his "Freedom Betrayed: Herbert Hoover's Secret History of the Second World War and Its Aftermath," by George H. Nash, published posthumously, obviously, in 2011.

Yeah....FDR knew.

Were FDR's action vis-a-vis the USSR those of a rational man? Or, if they appear irrational, is there an explanation for them?



So....you might call it an error in judgment....I call it mentally unstable.

 

[regent]

Wow, what a revelation treaties are broken, violated and made fun of. Of course, treaties are violated, America has a history of violating treaties even before the USSR was created. Treaties are valid as long as both sides want them to be valid, and few nations admit to violating a treaty, it's usually the other side that does the violating.
The recognition of the USSR followed Jefferson's philosophy, if they rule, they are the government, sort of like the recognition America asked France for at the end of the Revolutionary War.
If we had spies in the USSR during WWII would we admit it?
If Reagan did his homework and discovered the Soviets did not keep their treaties why would he negotiate with them?

 

[LA RAM FAN]

someone here has an obsession over FDR to the point she lets him control her life.

speaking of her hero Reagan


Let us remember Reagan as he really was :



•Liar
•Thief
•Mass murderer
•Supporter of abortion
•War criminal
•
•

•Destroyer of freedom
•Traitor of the American people
•Corporate whore
•Destroyer of the environment
•Supporter of Satanists & child murderers "
•



Reagan's was the most corrupt administration in the lifetime of most Americans



oh yes,good old Reagan,the great man and great president.

 

[PoliticalChic]

Wow, what a revelation treaties are broken, violated and made fun of. Of course, treaties are violated, America has a history of violating treaties even before the USSR was created. Treaties are valid as long as both sides want them to be valid, and few nations admit to violating a treaty, it's usually the other side that does the violating.
The recognition of the USSR followed Jefferson's philosophy, if they rule, they are the government, sort of like the recognition America asked France for at the end of the Revolutionary War.
If we had spies in the USSR during WWII would we admit it?
If Reagan did his homework and discovered the Soviets did not keep their treaties why would he negotiate with them?

"The recognition of the USSR followed Jefferson's philosophy, if they rule, they are the government, sort of like the recognition America asked France for at the end of the Revolutionary War."

In a pantheon of stupid comments....this one is way up there.


First, you are willing to ignore millions slaughtered by said nation, in order to defend your man-crush on Roosevelt....

...and you further slander this nation by pretending some equivalence between the nascent American nation and the homicidal USSR.

You should be ashamed.



But....History Butt would be proud of you.

 

[LA RAM FAN]

edit out.double post.

 

[G.T.]

you are a clear cut example of one who places ideology over truth

 

[LA RAM FAN]

someone here has an obsession over FDR to the point she lets him control her life.

speaking of her hero Reagan


Let us remember Reagan as he really was :



•Liar
•Thief
•Mass murderer
•Supporter of abortion
•War criminal
•
•

•Destroyer of freedom
•Traitor of the American people
•Corporate whore
•Destroyer of the environment
•Supporter of Satanists & child murderers "
•



Reagan's was the most corrupt administration in the lifetime of most Americans



oh yes,good old Reagan,the great man and great president.

there folks,is her hero Reagan,and her husband Crusader Retards as well of course.

 

[PoliticalChic]

you are a clear cut example of one who places ideology over truth

Watch how I jam those words down your throat:

It you are correct.....and that would be a first, an event that usually accompanies a parting sea or a stone tablet.....

...all you have to do is produce anything in the OP that is not true.


Waiting.

 

[PoliticalChic]

someone here has an obsession over FDR to the point she lets him control her life.

speaking of her hero Reagan


Let us remember Reagan as he really was :



•Liar
•Thief
•Mass murderer
•Supporter of abortion
•War criminal
•
•

•Destroyer of freedom
•Traitor of the American people
•Corporate whore
•Destroyer of the environment
•Supporter of Satanists & child murderers "
•



Reagan's was the most corrupt administration in the lifetime of most Americans



oh yes,good old Reagan,the great man and great president.

OK.....who took the sewer cover off and let you out????

 

[G.T.]

you are a clear cut example of one who places ideology over truth

Watch how I jam those words down your throat:

It you are correct.....and that would be a first, an event that usually accompanies a parting sea or a stone tablet.....

...all you have to do is produce anything in the OP that is not true.


Waiting.

That's daft.

The essence of your entire body of work here at usm is not in your OP, so - - - - - your if/than is stupid. Or "it" as your mistyped it.

 

[PoliticalChic]

you are a clear cut example of one who places ideology over truth

Watch how I jam those words down your throat:

It you are correct.....and that would be a first, an event that usually accompanies a parting sea or a stone tablet.....

...all you have to do is produce anything in the OP that is not true.


Waiting.

That's daft.

The essence of your entire body of work here at usm is not in your OP, so - - - - - your if/than is stupid. Or "it" as your mistyped it.

So.....we agree.....everything in the OP is true.....

....and you should only open your mouth to change feet?

 

[PoliticalChic]

Question #2.

Since FDR knew of Stalin's genocides, was Roosevelt a man without a moral compass?
... eight months earlier, journalist Gareth Jones had exposed Stalin's Terror Famine


HB: Did he support genocide No



PC: As I pointed out, eight months earlier, journalist Gareth Jones had exposed Stalin's Terror Famine.

This is poignant:
"In the train a Communist denied to me that there was a famine. I flung a crust of bread which I had been eating from my own supply into a spittoon. A peasant fellow-passenger fished it out and ravenously ate it."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gareth_Jones_(journalist)



Malcolm Muggeridge "was the first writer to reveal the true nature of Stalin's regime when in 1933 he exposed the terror famine in the Ukraine. "
[ame=http://www.amazon.com/Time-Eternity-Uncollected-Writings-Muggeridge/dp/1570759057]Time and Eternity: The Uncollected Writings of Malcolm Muggeridge: Malcolm Muggeridge, Nicholas Flynn: 9781570759055: Amazon.com: Books[/ame]


For those who don't know, Stalin starved millions to death to gain control of their property, their farms.

"1932-1933 .... Stalin, leader of the Soviet Union, set in motion events designed to cause a famine in the Ukraine to destroy the people there seeking independence from his rule. As a result, an estimated 7,000,000 persons perished..."
The History Place - Genocide in the 20th Century: Stalin's Forced Famine 1932-33


Think Roosevelt knew?
You can't deny it, can you.


Well...he bestowed recognition on the USSR, as Stalin dictated.....so he did support genocide.

Am I battin' 1.000, or what.

 

[LA RAM FAN]

four farts in a row from the resident troll.

notice how when he is cornered with facts she cant refute,she only has childish one liners she can post in defeat?

 

[regent]

Wow, what a revelation treaties are broken, violated and made fun of. Of course, treaties are violated, America has a history of violating treaties even before the USSR was created. Treaties are valid as long as both sides want them to be valid, and few nations admit to violating a treaty, it's usually the other side that does the violating.
The recognition of the USSR followed Jefferson's philosophy, if they rule, they are the government, sort of like the recognition America asked France for at the end of the Revolutionary War.
If we had spies in the USSR during WWII would we admit it?
If Reagan did his homework and discovered the Soviets did not keep their treaties why would he negotiate with them?

"The recognition of the USSR followed Jefferson's philosophy, if they rule, they are the government, sort of like the recognition America asked France for at the end of the Revolutionary War."

In a pantheon of stupid comments....this one is way up there.


First, you are willing to ignore millions slaughtered by said nation, in order to defend your man-crush on Roosevelt....

...and you further slander this nation by pretending some equivalence between the nascent American nation and the homicidal USSR.

You should be ashamed.



But....History Butt would be proud of you.

Might want to get a history book, a grown-up one. Our treaties with our own American Indians, were violated numerous times and while the slaughter of the Indians wasn't in the millions, percentage-wise it might stack right up there with the big boys.
In your zeal to make FDR and most of America communist, you distort history, the truth, and common sense.
I attribute those faults to your cape, capes are not good at saving the world except in comic strips.

 

[PoliticalChic]

Wow, what a revelation treaties are broken, violated and made fun of. Of course, treaties are violated, America has a history of violating treaties even before the USSR was created. Treaties are valid as long as both sides want them to be valid, and few nations admit to violating a treaty, it's usually the other side that does the violating.
The recognition of the USSR followed Jefferson's philosophy, if they rule, they are the government, sort of like the recognition America asked France for at the end of the Revolutionary War.
If we had spies in the USSR during WWII would we admit it?
If Reagan did his homework and discovered the Soviets did not keep their treaties why would he negotiate with them?

"The recognition of the USSR followed Jefferson's philosophy, if they rule, they are the government, sort of like the recognition America asked France for at the end of the Revolutionary War."

In a pantheon of stupid comments....this one is way up there.


First, you are willing to ignore millions slaughtered by said nation, in order to defend your man-crush on Roosevelt....

...and you further slander this nation by pretending some equivalence between the nascent American nation and the homicidal USSR.

You should be ashamed.



But....History Butt would be proud of you.

Might want to get a history book, a grown-up one. Our treaties with our own American Indians, were violated numerous times and while the slaughter of the Indians wasn't in the millions, percentage-wise it might stack right up there with the big boys.
In your zeal to make FDR and most of America communist, you distort history, the truth, and common sense.
I attribute those faults to your cape, capes are not good at saving the world except in comic strips.

1. "In your zeal to make FDR and most of America communist, you distort history, the truth, and common sense."


So.....where is your list of things in the post that aren't true?

Changing the subject falls short of a rebuttal.


a. Study the following, and you may not make the same mistake in the future:

Spin…altering the truth without altering the facts.

My posts are facts.





2. "I attribute those faults to your cape, capes are not good at saving the world except in comic strips."

Watch-your-step!

Comments about my sartorial splendor are like smokin' in the dynamite shed!

 

[LA RAM FAN]

Wow, what a revelation treaties are broken, violated and made fun of. Of course, treaties are violated, America has a history of violating treaties even before the USSR was created. Treaties are valid as long as both sides want them to be valid, and few nations admit to violating a treaty, it's usually the other side that does the violating.
The recognition of the USSR followed Jefferson's philosophy, if they rule, they are the government, sort of like the recognition America asked France for at the end of the Revolutionary War.
If we had spies in the USSR during WWII would we admit it?
If Reagan did his homework and discovered the Soviets did not keep their treaties why would he negotiate with them?

"The recognition of the USSR followed Jefferson's philosophy, if they rule, they are the government, sort of like the recognition America asked France for at the end of the Revolutionary War."

In a pantheon of stupid comments....this one is way up there.


First, you are willing to ignore millions slaughtered by said nation, in order to defend your man-crush on Roosevelt....

...and you further slander this nation by pretending some equivalence between the nascent American nation and the homicidal USSR.

You should be ashamed.



But....History Butt would be proud of you.

Might want to get a history book, a grown-up one. Our treaties with our own American Indians, were violated numerous times and while the slaughter of the Indians wasn't in the millions, percentage-wise it might stack right up there with the big boys.
In your zeal to make FDR and most of America communist, you distort history, the truth, and common sense.
I attribute those faults to your cape, capes are not good at saving the world except in comic strips.

her obsession seems to be with FDR and HIM being a communist.ignoring that Ike was buddies with Stalin just as much as he was.

 

[Camp]

Might want to get a history book, a grown-up one. Our treaties with our own American Indians, were violated numerous times and while the slaughter of the Indians wasn't in the millions, percentage-wise it might stack right up there with the big boys.
In your zeal to make FDR and most of America communist, you distort history, the truth, and common sense.
I attribute those faults to your cape, capes are not good at saving the world except in comic strips.

her obsession seems to be with FDR and HIM being a communist.ignoring that Ike was buddies with Stalin just as much as he was.

She is obsessed with the writings, teachings and ideology of a very specific Power Elitist FASCIST who supported the Nazi's in this country before WWII and assisted the Martin Bormann ODESSA program after the war.
It's to early to stop the entertainment so I'm am holding off on throwing the grenades.

 

[PoliticalChic]

Might want to get a history book, a grown-up one. Our treaties with our own American Indians, were violated numerous times and while the slaughter of the Indians wasn't in the millions, percentage-wise it might stack right up there with the big boys.
In your zeal to make FDR and most of America communist, you distort history, the truth, and common sense.
I attribute those faults to your cape, capes are not good at saving the world except in comic strips.

her obsession seems to be with FDR and HIM being a communist.ignoring that Ike was buddies with Stalin just as much as he was.

She is obsessed with the writings, teachings and ideology of a very specific Power Elitist FASCIST who supported the Nazi's in this country before WWII and assisted the Martin Bormann ODESSA program after the war.
It's to early to stop the entertainment so I'm am holding off on throwing the grenades.

1. "She is obsessed with the writings, teachings and ideology of a very specific...blah blah blah...."

I count at least six different links/sources....and I'm just getting stated.



2. Have you found any errors?
No?

See....that why I entitled this "Truth (me) vs. Ideology (you)."

 

[PoliticalChic]

Question #3.
Did he [FDR] agree with Stalin that wholesale slaughter was a justifiable method of governing.
Perhaps he lived by the motto 'Exitus acta probat.' (The end justifies the means.)


HB: Did he support Stalin's slaughter No





PC: The question was a trap...and you fell right in.

How does one ignore the evidence in #2 above, and say that FDR didn't support wholesale slaughter?

The answer is that the Left's supporters have perfected the ability to turn a blind eye to any consequences of a Leftist's actions.
Blame never seems to accrue.



Now, if HB actually has a knowledge of history, of Stalin's foul deeds.....doubtful.....then, based on his answer above, he would be exposed as a liar.
In the face of Stalin's slaughter, Roosevelt supported his every wish.
(Except for one....ask me.)



Question #4.
Was he just plain stupid?

HB: Was he stupid No

PC: Wrong answer- that could have been your escape...I was giving him a way out.
If his decisions vis-a-vis Stalin and the USSR weren't stupid....what is left is far worse.

He bowed to the demands of a homicidal tyrant.
What other explanation can their be.....


....a devotee of world communism??



Poor History Butt....I almost feel sorry for him.

Almost.

 

[Camp]

Don't feel sorry. You haven't trapped anyone buy yourself. It's 2014 and people understand the marketing (propaganda) methodology of misinterpretation or misrepresentation of factual statements. The sky is blue, that is a fact. Only it isn't blue at night. It isn't blue on a rainy or cloudy day or sometime during a sunrise or sunset. And it isn't blue above a certain distance from the earth.
And anyhow, all you are doing is saying you are smarter than me because your opinion is of more value than mine. You aren't even using facts, you are using opinions.
Still, your nonsense is based on that Power Elite Fascist that helped support escaped Nazi war criminals. Your sources quotes and sources lead back to him. It is why so many have asked you in previous threads why you supported the Nazi's and Hitler. They could see the connection, but couldn't put the finger on it. I have the finger and you know it. Perhaps you are super stupid and didn't know it yesterday, but your response indicates you know it now.