The Collapsing American Middle Class

[Fenton Lum]

The election of President Reagan in 1981 was when the foundation for the coffin was laid, and with the Supreme Court's decisions in Citizens United & McCutcheon v. FEC the final nail wwas manufactured to seal the coffin which holds our once democratic republic lying in repose.

Open your mind people and consider the ten points clearly and concisely expressed by Noam Chomsky in "Requiem for the American Dream"

https://s3.amazonaws.com/tribeca_cm...01/Requiem_Tribeca_Production_Notes_v3.19.pdf

and,

- PF PICTURES – REQUIEM FOR THE AMERICAN DREAM

The willfully ignorant will immediately dismiss the argument expressed in the film, which I watched on Netflix yesterday. For Mr. Chomsky has been reviled by our nations power elite, whose sole goal is to retain and expand the power and control over the many.

Libs get their information from movies and comic books. This accounts for much of what they believe.

What accounts for the state of american society is this perceptual reality displayed right here, by you. I can either brand you "lib" or "con" and then reject everything you have to say based upon the label I just assigend.

I brand you incapable of rational discussion and leave it at that.

Like I said, have a nice day.

Rabbi lives in a virtual reality with no color or shades.

Clearly. Rather rabid.

 

[bendog]

I have to go somewhere. But, imo, the question is simply. Can society set a bottom limit on what price a certain market can value something at, such as labor?

I would argue that what we saw with GM and the UAW in the late 70s was that unions could force a corporation to set the price of labor too high for the corporations to sell a product at a profit.

But at the same time, we also saw a management that could not design a product that could successfully compete with Toyota, so blaming labor for GM's demise would be overly simplistic. But now, GM is union owned, so labor's price is set more by market forces. Yet, GM is outsourcing jobs to non-union countries.

 

[The Rabbi]

Libs get their information from movies and comic books. This accounts for much of what they believe.

What accounts for the state of american society is this perceptual reality displayed right here, by you. I can either brand you "lib" or "con" and then reject everything you have to say based upon the label I just assigend.

I brand you incapable of rational discussion and leave it at that.

Like I said, have a nice day.

Rabbi lives in a virtual reality with no color or shades.

Clearly. Rather rabid.

You do not know what "neo conservatism" is any more than you know the go/no-go specs of 30-06. You are merely playing with words and trolling.

 

[The Rabbi]

I have to go somewhere. But, imo, the question is simply. Can society set a bottom limit on what price a certain market can value something at, such as labor?

I would argue that what we saw with GM and the UAW in the late 70s was that unions could force a corporation to set the price of labor too high for the corporations to sell a product at a profit.

But at the same time, we also saw a management that could not design a product that could successfully compete with Toyota, so blaming labor for GM's demise would be overly simplistic. But now, GM is union owned, so labor's price is set more by market forces. Yet, GM is outsourcing jobs to non-union countries.

Your question is absurd. Of course society can set those limits. Society can set limits on anything--the price of bread, the number of hours worked, the amount of overtime, the size of a company.
The question is whether that is good policy and the answer is resoundingly NO.

 

[Fenton Lum]

What accounts for the state of american society is this perceptual reality displayed right here, by you. I can either brand you "lib" or "con" and then reject everything you have to say based upon the label I just assigend.

I brand you incapable of rational discussion and leave it at that.

Like I said, have a nice day.

Rabbi lives in a virtual reality with no color or shades.

Clearly. Rather rabid.

You do not know what "neo conservatism" is any more than you know the go/no-go specs of 30-06. You are merely playing with words and trolling.

Yes, of course hon.

 

[Fenton Lum]

I have to go somewhere. But, imo, the question is simply. Can society set a bottom limit on what price a certain market can value something at, such as labor?

I would argue that what we saw with GM and the UAW in the late 70s was that unions could force a corporation to set the price of labor too high for the corporations to sell a product at a profit.

But at the same time, we also saw a management that could not design a product that could successfully compete with Toyota, so blaming labor for GM's demise would be overly simplistic. But now, GM is union owned, so labor's price is set more by market forces. Yet, GM is outsourcing jobs to non-union countries.

Your question is absurd. Of course society can set those limits. Society can set limits on anything--the price of bread, the number of hours worked, the amount of overtime, the size of a company.
The question is whether that is good policy and the answer is resoundingly NO.

Yeah, monopolies are great for a society.

 

[JimBowie1958]

Right, so you made it, but no one else can. That's how you know what a waste of a country this is where no one has a chance, you did fine. Every leftist says that. Sure, you're fine, that's how you know no one can make it. It's inane.

The nature of the Digital Revolution is making it more difficult for people TODAY to make it like I did and others in generations prior to the Digital Revolution. The First and Second Industrial Revolutions created vastly more jobs than they eliminated because they created huge new markets that overwhelmed the previous industrial markets which were mostly man made items.

Take for example, ceramic lamps made by hand were completely replaced by an industry of metal stamped lanterns that were assembled by many more people than those who made ceramic lamps, because the lower cost of the lanterns grew the market for them by hundreds of factors greater than those who could afford multiple ceramic lamps. Where one lamp maker could make a dozen lamps a day, a couple of dozen people could make thousands of lanterns a day for a fraction of the cost and sell them to an insatiable world market. And the people who made the ceramic lamps were absorbed into the new lantern industry as well, so it was a net gain in jobs in society by a huge margin.

Today's Digital Revolution is taking industry and freeing it of the need for labor and that is killing jobs. Combined with our stupid 'free trade' treaties not being implemented to protect jobs or our own trading interests and the presence of about 30 million black market laborers, and we have a severe shortage of jobs that your rah-rah-rah demeanor doesnt even scratch in real terms. Yeah, everyone needs to go and get a degree in computer science and invent a game and become a millionaire.

Great employment strategy, dude.

And go Terps! Double major in Math & Computer Science from the University of Maryland in 1988 myself.

Lol, you got your degree before I did. I got mine in 1995 and my income doubled within a year. I majored in Computer Science, specializing in information systems, with a minor in math and history. I could have had another minor but in physics but I didnt want to put off the degree another semester.

While I have a soft spot for U Maryland, it never seemed like anything more than a commuter school because I was there mostly for night or weekend classes, and there was not the same feel to that that I have had at other colleges. Their night classes were actually part of a separate school, cant remember the name, but it was affiliated with/a branch of U Maryland and since I also had U Maryland classes, my degree is from there.

But yes, what kind of school names its mascot after a turtle? You gotta love it!

 

[The Rabbi]

I have to go somewhere. But, imo, the question is simply. Can society set a bottom limit on what price a certain market can value something at, such as labor?

I would argue that what we saw with GM and the UAW in the late 70s was that unions could force a corporation to set the price of labor too high for the corporations to sell a product at a profit.

But at the same time, we also saw a management that could not design a product that could successfully compete with Toyota, so blaming labor for GM's demise would be overly simplistic. But now, GM is union owned, so labor's price is set more by market forces. Yet, GM is outsourcing jobs to non-union countries.

Your question is absurd. Of course society can set those limits. Society can set limits on anything--the price of bread, the number of hours worked, the amount of overtime, the size of a company.
The question is whether that is good policy and the answer is resoundingly NO.

Yeah, monopolies are great for a society.

Monopolies today are products of government action, simp.

 

[JimBowie1958]

You do not know what "neo conservatism" is any more than you know the go/no-go specs of 30-06.

That is interesting. I was in the infantry and we set the timing gap to the 50 cal with a go/no go gauge but I have never heard of it for a 30 ought six.

What model did they have a 30-06 machine gun in use during your time?

 

[The Rabbi]

You do not know what "neo conservatism" is any more than you know the go/no-go specs of 30-06.

That is interesting. I was in the infantry and we set the timing gap to the 50 cal with a go/no go gauge but I have never heard of it for a 30 ought six.

What model did they have a 30-06 machine gun in use during your time?

Dumbshit. Go/No Go is for headspace and every rifle chambered for it has headspace.

 

[Fenton Lum]

I have to go somewhere. But, imo, the question is simply. Can society set a bottom limit on what price a certain market can value something at, such as labor?

I would argue that what we saw with GM and the UAW in the late 70s was that unions could force a corporation to set the price of labor too high for the corporations to sell a product at a profit.

But at the same time, we also saw a management that could not design a product that could successfully compete with Toyota, so blaming labor for GM's demise would be overly simplistic. But now, GM is union owned, so labor's price is set more by market forces. Yet, GM is outsourcing jobs to non-union countries.

Your question is absurd. Of course society can set those limits. Society can set limits on anything--the price of bread, the number of hours worked, the amount of overtime, the size of a company.
The question is whether that is good policy and the answer is resoundingly NO.

Yeah, monopolies are great for a society.

Monopolies today are products of government action, simp.

And who do you think lobbied for the policies shoog? Jesus man.

 

[JimBowie1958]

You do not know what "neo conservatism" is any more than you know the go/no-go specs of 30-06.

That is interesting. I was in the infantry and we set the timing gap to the 50 cal with a go/no go gauge but I have never heard of it for a 30 ought six.

What model did they have a 30-06 machine gun in use during your time?

Dumbshit. Go/No Go is for headspace and every rifle chambered for it has headspace.

Yeah, that is why they call it a head space/timing gauge.

And no, not every rifle has to have the user set the head space and timing in the field. That is usually the job of the armorer, if there is a minor issue, or they send it back. In the field is mostly for belt fed weapons as bolt action rifles have the head space built in to the dimensions of the bolt and the chamber of the rifle to fit the conical front of the round. Improper head space with these is readily noticed when you chamber a round.

At least that is how I remember it from about 30 years ago with a little help from Wikipedia, lol.

Dumbshit, roflmao.

 

[Fenton Lum]

You do not know what "neo conservatism" is any more than you know the go/no-go specs of 30-06.

That is interesting. I was in the infantry and we set the timing gap to the 50 cal with a go/no go gauge but I have never heard of it for a 30 ought six.

What model did they have a 30-06 machine gun in use during your time?

Dumbshit. Go/No Go is for headspace and every rifle chambered for it has headspace.

Yeah, that is why they call it a head space/timing gauge.

And no, not every rifle has to have the user set the head space and timing in the field. That is usually the job of the armorer, if there is a minor issue or they send it back. In the field is mostly for belt fed weapons as bolt action rifles have the head space built in to the dimensions of the bolt and the chamber of the rifle to fit the conical front of the round. Improper head space with these is readily noticed when you chamber a round.

At least that is how I remember it from about 30 years ago with a little help from Wikipedia, lol.

Dumbshit, roflmao.

Oh fuck, that's gonna leave a mark!

 

[kaz]

Right, so you made it, but no one else can. That's how you know what a waste of a country this is where no one has a chance, you did fine. Every leftist says that. Sure, you're fine, that's how you know no one can make it. It's inane.

The nature of the Digital Revolution is making it more difficult for people TODAY to make it like I did and others in generations prior to the Digital Revolution. The First and Second Industrial Revolutions created vastly more jobs than they eliminated because they created huge new markets that overwhelmed the previous industrial markets which were mostly man made items.

Take for example, ceramic lamps made by hand were completely replaced by an industry of metal stamped lanterns that were assembled by many more people than those who made ceramic lamps, because the lower cost of the lanterns grew the market for them by hundreds of factors greater than those who could afford multiple ceramic lamps. Where one lamp maker could make a dozen lamps a day, a couple of dozen people could make thousands of lanterns a day for a fraction of the cost and sell them to an insatiable world market. And the people who made the ceramic lamps were absorbed into the new lantern industry as well, so it was a net gain in jobs in society by a huge margin.

Today's Digital Revolution is taking industry and freeing it of the need for labor and that is killing jobs. Combined with our stupid 'free trade' treaties not being implemented to protect jobs or our own trading interests and the presence of about 30 million black market laborers, and we have a severe shortage of jobs that your rah-rah-rah demeanor doesnt even scratch in real terms. Yeah, everyone needs to go and get a degree in computer science and invent a game and become a millionaire.

Great employment strategy, dude.

And go Terps! Double major in Math & Computer Science from the University of Maryland in 1988 myself.

Lol, you got your degree before I did. I got mine in 1995 and my income doubled within a year. I majored in Computer Science, specializing in information systems, with a minor in math and history. I could have had another minor but in physics but I didnt want to put off the degree another semester.

While I have a soft spot for U Maryland, it never seemed like anything more than a commuter school because I was there mostly for night or weekend classes, and there was not the same feel to that that I have had at other colleges. Their night classes were actually part of a separate school, cant remember the name, but it was affiliated with/a branch of U Maryland and since I also had U Maryland classes, my degree is from there.

But yes, what kind of school names its mascot after a turtle? You gotta love it!

Yes, Maryland is definitely a commuter school. I didn't go to graduation because all my friends were in different classes, there wasn't much connection. Later when I got my MBA from Michigan where I was graduating with almost all my friends because there was that class identity I loved it.

I was one of the first at Maryland to get a Computer Science degree, it hadn't existed very long

 

[JimBowie1958]

Yeah, I'd go along with Hillary Clinton's a corporatist. So is america at the moment. Not sure I agree with your definition of neoliberalism but I do not believe neoliberalism's been good for america anymore than neoconservatism has been.

We need to return to the old EARLY Enlightenment values that got us here; 'Faith tempered by Reason' and 'Empathy with those Not Us' that most often resulted in a Yin-Yang type of duo between Classic Liberalism and Classic Conservatism. That whole system did us a much better service than today's shallow ideological rivalries and their minions.

We need more of the type of discussion that William F Buckley Jr had with Kenneth Galbraith and less of two ideologues shouting at each other.

 

[Fenton Lum]

Yeah, I'd go along with Hillary Clinton's a corporatist. So is america at the moment. Not sure I agree with your definition of neoliberalism but I do not believe neoliberalism's been good for america anymore than neoconservatism has been.

We need to return to the old EARLY Enlightenment values that got us here; 'Faith tempered by Reason' and 'Empathy with those Not Us' that most often resulted in a Yin-Yang type of duo between Classic Liberalism and Classic Conservatism. That whole system did us a much better service than today's shallow ideological rivalries and their minions.

Couldn't agree more, the entire system got put up for sale.

 

[OnePercenter]

When ronnie started his demise and ruining of Unions. Wages started to stagnate.

Forgetting for the moment that what you are saying is an oversimplification of the problem, why do you think the Democrat Senate and Democrat House allowed "ronnie" to do that? How come 16 years of Democrat Presidents have done nothing to fix the problem? Instead, we got NAFTA, an increased trade deficit with China and greater national debt.

Care to explain that?

All Reagan did was fire the workers of a GOVERNMENT union who were committing an illegal strike. There should be no government unions in the first place. If you want market power, you should be in the market

All Reagan did was fire the workers of a GOVERNMENT union who were committing an illegal strike. There should be no government unions in the first place. If you want market power, you should be in the market

You'd better thank God that the Air Traffic Controllers had an illegal strike, because of it ALL FAA towers have Doppler radar.

Employees aren't commodities!

 

[OnePercenter]

Just to head this deflection off; this is due to the leadership of BOTH parties being bought by the corporate crony network.

This is not a slam on Dems alone, but all the bastards that undermine our lives and economic future in DC by carrying corporate water for them.

The Bruised and Battered Middle Class

Likewise, California, Arizona, New Mexico, and Texas have the 10 areas with the highest share of lower-income earners. With the exception of New Mexico, all those states have favored either Republicans or Democrats in four straight presidential elections.

The metro regions with the highest percentage of middle-income households, though, are disproportionately located in swing states or states that the Trump campaign believes are ripe for the New York billionaire's economic message. Pennsylvania and Ohio each have one, and Wisconsin alone has four.

"That tells me the trends described in this report are going to benefit the more populist candidates," said Alan Tonelson, an economic policy analyst who is critical of U.S. trade policy. "That seems to me to translate into good news for Trump … [Clinton] doesn't have very deep roots as a trade policy critic."

This meme is utter bullshit. The middle class is better off than they were 20 years ago. Yes, the last 8 years have sucked due to the low growth that Dem policies produce. But otherwise this is just dog whistle.

This meme is utter bullshit. The middle class is better off than they were 20 years ago. Yes, the last 8 years have sucked due to the low growth that Dem policies produce. But otherwise this is just dog whistle.

Young people today don't have anywhere near the buying power their Fathers and Grand Fathers had.

 

[kaz]

When ronnie started his demise and ruining of Unions. Wages started to stagnate.

Forgetting for the moment that what you are saying is an oversimplification of the problem, why do you think the Democrat Senate and Democrat House allowed "ronnie" to do that? How come 16 years of Democrat Presidents have done nothing to fix the problem? Instead, we got NAFTA, an increased trade deficit with China and greater national debt.

Care to explain that?

All Reagan did was fire the workers of a GOVERNMENT union who were committing an illegal strike. There should be no government unions in the first place. If you want market power, you should be in the market

All Reagan did was fire the workers of a GOVERNMENT union who were committing an illegal strike. There should be no government unions in the first place. If you want market power, you should be in the market

You'd better thank God that the Air Traffic Controllers had an illegal strike, because of it ALL FAA towers have Doppler radar.

Employees aren't commodities!

LOL, you're the one who argues that they are, you think exployees are like socket wrenches, all the same. That's the whole basis of your arguments from the minimum wage to unions, they are the same and so if they don't band together their employer will toss them for an identical cheaper one

 

[The Rabbi]

I have to go somewhere. But, imo, the question is simply. Can society set a bottom limit on what price a certain market can value something at, such as labor?

I would argue that what we saw with GM and the UAW in the late 70s was that unions could force a corporation to set the price of labor too high for the corporations to sell a product at a profit.

But at the same time, we also saw a management that could not design a product that could successfully compete with Toyota, so blaming labor for GM's demise would be overly simplistic. But now, GM is union owned, so labor's price is set more by market forces. Yet, GM is outsourcing jobs to non-union countries.

Your question is absurd. Of course society can set those limits. Society can set limits on anything--the price of bread, the number of hours worked, the amount of overtime, the size of a company.
The question is whether that is good policy and the answer is resoundingly NO.

Yeah, monopolies are great for a society.

Monopolies today are products of government action, simp.

And who do you think lobbied for the policies shoog? Jesus man.

ANyone can lobby for anything, dunce.